BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: podman
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 07:58 AM

australian news

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 02:17 PM

beardedbruce - Where did you get that info? Sources, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: ard mhacha
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 03:20 PM

Beardedbruce, The US dirty-tricks dept could have this car doing any speed they prefer.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 04:03 PM

One of the interesting points that have been reported is that Calipari did inform U.S. personnel of the plan but that there wasn't enough time to inform the soldiers at the makeshift checkpoint.

This makes sense and certainly exonerates the soldiers at the checkpoint. It is also a another excuse for poor communication on the side of the U.S. and makes it entirely possible that the U.S. knew exactly what would happen if they witheld such critical information from their soldiers.

Its pretty sad that, like most wars, the soldiers are doing the dirty work while the guy that gives the orders (or doesn't change the orders) gets to walk. I don't think this can be chalked up to an accident of war.

As far as I'm concerned, there have been one too many, "friendly fire" incidents in Iraq. The citizens of the U.S. should be outraged that this war is being fought in their name and that the result has been a loss of one ally after another.

Someone should tell Bush that no man is an island.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 06:29 PM

WTOP radio. They reported the satellite photos were showing the car at a rate of greater than 60 mph. As I said, people will only believe the facts that support the conclusion they want to draw.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: DougR
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 06:32 PM

Sad to believe, BB, but I think you are right.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 06:36 PM

Actually, I try to remain somewhere in the middle, but on Mudcat that makes me a far right extremist.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 06:54 PM

I think people are entitled to expect that in a case like this the investigators would have felt duty bound to be completely objectuve and dispassionate and seen their duty as being to search out the truth, regardless of what that might be.

An honest investigation like that might have been forced to say that there was uncertainty about some issues - but it is inconceivable that it could have ended up with as "the Italians believe the Italians and the Americans believe the Americans".

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 07:09 PM

Well, early on the Italian 'journalist' Sgrena was imputing that the Americans had targeted her car, and both the Italians and Americans agree that didn't happen.

Ms. Sgrena seems to have had other problems with the distinction between fact and fiction.

The satellite information looked interesting, but probably not definitive enough to change anyone off of their established positions.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 09:41 PM

If I were in Sgrena's shoes at the time, I probably would have thought I was being targetted. What else was she supposed to believe? She was told the Americans did not want her set free, she knew Calipari was a professional and had it all arranged. She says they were not speeding and she didn't see or hear a warning before shots were fired. What would you think if you were in her shoes?

I'm more likely to accept the first hand accounts of the two Italians who were there. I haven't heard what the soldiers said at the investigation. Have the Italians been given permission to interview the U.S. soldiers who were present? Why can't the Italians and the Americans agree on the conclusion?

Smells a whole lot fishy to me. Of course I never have been one to swallow the American Govt. version of things: hook, line and sinker. Why should I? Why should anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 10:16 PM

"I'm more likely to accept the first hand accounts of the two Italians who were there. I haven't heard what the soldiers said at the investigation. Have the Italians been given permission to interview the U.S. soldiers who were present? Why can't the Italians and the Americans agree on the conclusion?

Smells a whole lot fishy to me. Of course I never have been one to swallow the American Govt. version of things: hook, line and sinker. Why should I? Why should anyone? "



So if the satellite pictures show the car covering a distance that indicates a rate of speed more than twice the number given by the Italians, you would believe the statement of the people who have a vested interest in making the US look bad over the facts?

What about the condition of the car? What about the "tank" firing at them? What about the witnesses on the US side?

The statements indicate a bias.

Why should I swallow the Italian version of things: hook, line and sinker. Why should I? Why should anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 01 May 05 - 02:15 AM

What vested interest does the driver of the car have? Why would he want the U.S. to look bad. Italy is an ally of the U.S.

Will the U.S. witnesses be available for questioning by the Italians?

Satellite pictures can be doctored.

Lets wait and see what the Italians say about the condition of the car.

Where was the so-called tank positioned? Was it a tank?

Lots of questions to be answered, including why the Italians and Americans did not come to the same conclusion.

I don't think too many people have been killed by Italian, friendly fire. On the other hand, lots of people have been killed by U.S. friendly fire, including Canadians! Lets face it, the U.S. has a piss poor record of communication with their allies. Why would anyone want to fight beside an ally that might as well be the enemy.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 01 May 05 - 11:14 AM

US Says Italian Driver was Distracted, Driving Too Fast

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 01 May 05 - 01:15 PM

Robo - Can you copy some of the article? I don't have a subscription.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 01 May 05 - 01:29 PM

From Today's New York Times:

Ex-Hostage's Italian Driver Ignored Warning, U.S. Says

By RICHARD A. OPPEL Jr. and ROBERT F. WORTH

Published: May 1, 2005



BAGHDAD, Iraq, April 30 - The car carrying the Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena that was struck with a deadly hail of gunfire as it sped toward Baghdad International Airport on March 4 ignored warnings from American soldiers who used a spotlight, a green laser pointer and warning shots to try to stop it as it approached a checkpoint, the American military said in a report released Saturday evening.


The gunfire killed Nicola Calipari, an Italian intelligence agent who was in the back seat with Ms. Sgrena. The driver and Ms. Sgrena were wounded. Lt. Gen. John R. Vines, the ground commander in Iraq, has approved a recommendation that soldiers involved in the shooting not be disciplined, the military said.

(there is a restatement of the political repercussions being experienced between Italian officials and the US. The article goes on:)
The report, which had many blacked-out parts, is the American military's first detailed account of the events. It asserts that the Italians ignored repeated warnings from American soldiers as they sped onto a part of the Baghdad airport road where soldiers are on a constant state of high alert because of the extraordinary risk of suicide car bombs and other insurgent attacks.


According to the report, 11 bullets fired by one American soldier hit the Italians' car, killing Mr. Calipari, after the car failed to heed the warnings. The car was traveling about 50 miles per hour - faster than other cars that night - as it approached the checkpoint and did not slow until struck by the bullets, the report said.


The driver "was dealing with multiple distractions including talking on the phone while driving, the conversation in the back seat, trying to listen for threats, driving on a wet road, focusing on tasks to be accomplished, the need to get to the airport, and the excited and tense atmosphere in the car," the report found. He shouted, "They are attacking us" into his phone when the firing began, the report said, adding that it was "highly unlikely" that any shots were fired after the car stopped. The fusillade lasted four seconds, it said.


The soldier who fired the shots complied with the military's rules of engagement, the report concluded. "After operating the spotlight, and perceiving the oncoming vehicle as a threat, he fired to disable it and did not intend to harm anyone," it said.


The report also asserted that the United States military "was totally unaware of the recovery and transport of Ms. Sgrena" until after the shooting. It said the troops stationed at the checkpoint were on their first full day on shift there and "lacked experience in issuing operational orders and in battle tracking security forces" at checkpoints.

There is more but I'm not comfortable with wholesale duping of current newspaper articles.

Registration with the New York Times is simple, free, and well worth having.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 01 May 05 - 01:32 PM

From the Australian:

"The US report recommends a "comprehensive review" of checkpoint and roadblock procedures.

It suggests replacing spotlights and warning shots with flashing lights and sirens to stop civilian cars at roadblocks, and the installation of road signs to warn motorists that they are approaching a checkpoint.

"The soldiers and leaders must look at the position ... from the perspective of Iraqi drivers and what they might see."

The report also recommends new rules to preserve the scene of friendly fire incidents, admitting its forensic findings were limited because the car, roadblock and bullet shells had been removed by the time inspectors arrived."

I find that last paragraph especially interesting.

Apparently the Italian version of the investigation will be released Monday night.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 01 May 05 - 01:47 PM

AN INTERESTING DEVELOPMENT

Those clever Italians got a copy of the official US report in PDF format with lots of blocked out portions. Apparently they knew something the American distributors didn't know, that in a digital document the information is still there. They copied the document into WORD format and were able to see the whole thing, and it is now available on the net. It is 34 pages long and full of military lingo and detailed to the point of tediousness. ASSUMING that what I've seen is genuine, it's a more minute account of what the New York Times has printed, e.g. the soldiers had set up a checkpoint and done everything by the book, a car travelling faster than any other car they'd seen that night came through, they attempted to get its attention with a spotlight and a green laser. After that failed, they fired at it, not explicitly to kill, and the driver stopped after receiving fire. They rendered aid. The entire incident took less time than it takes to describe, including less than four seconds of weapons fire. There was no firing after the car had stopped.

The official report says the Italians were proceeding faster than 50 mph.

At this point I don't have information on specifically where the Italians differ with the Americans. The Italians involved (Calipari and the driver) are accepted as being very experienced in the environment, and the driver was knowledgeable about Baghdad.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 May 05 - 05:55 PM

As dianavan said, Italy plans to release its report tomorrow.

FRANCES D'EMILIO, Associated Press Writer/ Yahoo News
1 hour, 10 minutes ago

"ROME - Italy will publish its own report Monday on the U.S. killing of an Italian intelligence agent after the two countries could not agree on the circumstances of last month's shooting at an American checkpoint in Baghdad.

"Italy said its report into the March 4 "friendly fire" shooting death of agent Nicola Calipari will focus on the problems of coordinating with Americans in    Iraq and the rules of conduct for U.S. troops at checkpoints.

"The Foreign Ministry document will be released two days after the U.S. military said its investigation had cleared American soldiers of wrongdoing in the checkpoint shooting that also injured Giuliana Sgrena, the Italian journalist that Calipari had just freed from insurgents.

"Italian newspapers published what they said were extracts of the report Sunday, with Italian investigators concluding that U.S. authorities were informed of the operation several hours before the shooting and were told of Sgrena's release 25 minutes before Calipari was killed."

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 02 May 05 - 01:32 PM

What Robomatic said seems to be true. You can read both the official report (with the "black outs") and the complete version in

this link from the Corriere della Sera (which is considered a serious Italian source)

It's an interesting reading to see what information is considered to be blacked out.

What an utterly stupid blunder by the US government, BTW.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: GUEST,Private Rights, Public Menace
Date: 02 May 05 - 01:44 PM

Wolfgang wrote: "What an utterly stupid blunder by the US government, BTW."

This would tie in with another topic, that with the kind of government we have the danger is not that the government will collect citizens information and have each and everyone under its thumb, but rather that the government will amass citizens informatioin and it will be easily nicked and sold off to the highest bidders, who will use it for ripping off all and sundry, and fixing insurance rates.

Still dangerous, but a more actual danger, and probably happening right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Donuel
Date: 02 May 05 - 01:46 PM

The evidence presented to the American tribunal

http://uk.download.yahoo.com/ne/fu/attachments/bubblewrap.swf

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 May 05 - 02:23 PM

Thanks for the link to the reporta, Wolfgang.

It is pathetic - in the REAL sense, not jargon - how very vulnerable the US Army is in Iraq. After two years of war - and a year after combat was pronounced over - the Army still must have guard vehicles for any travel, and "all of Iraq is considered a combat zone."

Just what are we doing there? What have we accomplished there? Who are we helping? Who is better off because we are there?

Reading the report made me sad for the American troops. They are in a no-win situation that carries the constant threat of death for themselves or for their friends and co-workers. Why are they there????

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 03 May 05 - 02:00 AM

From AGI online:

"At the prosecutor's office, finally, they are expressing more than a little perplexity about the fact that an American satellite may have filmed the scene of the shooting. "If these images exist, they should show then, and then it will be discussed whether or not they are relevant to the event we are dealing with."

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: GUEST, Ebbie
Date: 03 May 05 - 11:42 AM

And of course - my times given are both off by a year. Time flies when you're having fun. :(

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 03 May 05 - 06:23 PM

Well, there was supposed to be an Italian report out by now. All I've seen is a blurb about the Italians criticizing the Americans for poor communications and on-site inexperience. The Italian PM supposedly has tweaked the report to reduce its harshness towards the Americans. But notice of the real report I have yet to see. I'm making note here mainly to refresh the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 03 May 05 - 09:07 PM

What a muddy mess of misinformation. From ISN:

"The US report stated that the US soldiers had been unaware of the Italian rescue mission, since the Italian major-general who informed a US captain about the mission had added that "it is best if no one knows" when he passed on the information. The US officer reportedly took that statement to mean that he was not to relay the information further."

and yet other reports contradict this entirely.

One thing is for sure. The checkpoint was makeshift and not very visible with very few signals in place.

Of course the soldiers are not to blame but what about the US captain who didn't relay the information to the soldiers at the checkpoint? Why did they remove the evidence from the scene? Why so much unecessary cover-up.

...and you wonder why nobody trusts the U.S....

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 04 May 05 - 08:57 PM

The Italian report is out, 52 pages - in Italian. There have been some news articles if you do a search on "dueling reports" you will find 'em. The NYT is here:

Dueling Reports

The Italians take issue with the Americans on preserving evidence at the site, on the level of skill of the American soldiers at the checkpoint, of the visibility of the checkpoint, and other items.


The report said that the car carrying the agent, Nicola Calipari, a ranking official in Italian secret services, had not been an intentional target but that "some level of inexperience and stress could have led soldiers to reactions that were instinctive and not well controlled."


They have concluded, at least, that this was a tragic situation and not a targeted operation.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 05 May 05 - 01:49 AM

Tragic situation, yes. Who is accountable? How many tragic situations are needed before the U.S. gets there military operations and their communications in order?

What do you expect when the commander in chief is George W. Bush. Thats what you get with 'faulty intelligence' trying to run a war.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 05 May 05 - 09:52 PM

From AGI online:

"CALIPARI: ABSENCE OF CRIMINAL INTENT DOES NOT EXCLUDE GUILT
(AGI) - Rome, May 5 - "One thing is to come to the conclusion, as the US did, that there are no disciplinary responsibilities. Another thing is to detect the absence of voluntary intentions, as Italy did. One does not have to be an expert in penal law to know that the absence of criminal intent does not at all exclude guilt due to negligence, imprudence or incompetence. This is not a secondary difference", stated Premier Silvio Berlusconi."