 sj |
||
|
||
BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
|
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: Ebbie Date: 08 Mar 05 - 03:40 PM A Journalist's Opinion "Call me crazy, but I think that if the military wants you dead, and has you in their gunsights with a kill order in hand, you're gone. Period. If the military or civilian command had wanted Sgrena dead, why did they not use the .20mm cannon that was on the scene? The rounds from that thing are as big as Frisbees and would have done the job. If the military or civilian command had wanted Sgrena dead, why did military medics tend to her after the attack? "No, if they want you, and they've got you bracketed and braced, that's the end of you. If this attack had been deliberate, we'd be reading Sgrena's obituary today. It is terrible that she was shot, and she is to be commended for her courage in reporting on the Fallujah incursion from an eyewitness perspective, but the attack was not deliberate "The discussion of this, while necessary and justified by other incidents and accusations of journalists being targeted, is wide of the point we should be focusing on. Giuliana Sgrena is not the most important person in this story. The center of this story revolves around two people: Nicola Calipari and the soldier who shot him." |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: CarolC Date: 08 Mar 05 - 03:45 PM Here's what I find difficult to understand... The driver survived. If the people at the checkpoint were so concerned about the vehicle being used for the purpose of causing damage to the airport or anyone in it, or even to the people at the checkpoint, why were they firing all of the bullets into the passengers in the back seat, instead of into the driver? And if, as I've read somewhere, the driver was approaching the checkpoint personnel on foot, with his hands up (hence his not being killed), why were the checkpoint personnel still firing bullets into the passengers in the back seat? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: robomatic Date: 08 Mar 05 - 05:59 PM I started my answer a bit back, then the web site or the computer hiccuped so by the time i had it ready again there were two more comments posted. So starting with the latest and working my way back: I think someone remarked earlier on that the car was hit with a spray of bullets from a tank machine gun. Them is not meant for accuracy. The soldiers' story that has been extant is that they were firing at the motor to stop the vehicle. But with the power of those guns and a spray of bullets, the occupants are subjected not merely to bullets but to the shrapnel effect of bits of sheet metal and engine block torn shredded and flying. Apparently it's a miracle that anyone in that car survived. Drawing back a bit from the immediacy of this particular event, one would like to believe that after initial confusion someone comes up with and regularizes a procedure to control access on these roads. I'd like to believe that a conference would be held between the yanks, the brits, the poles, anyone else doing this kind of work, and the best ideas utilized so that anyone but especially innocent, possibly frightened and illiterate Iraqis would be able to pull in to these sites without feeling they were making alife and death attempt. Unfortunately as soon as that is done, the opposition finds a way to use it to blow someone up. I heard stories (on the AM radio so who knows, right?) that some innocent appearing Iraqi families were used as bomb carriers by going in under a terrorist's gun or with relatives held hostage. Part of the apparent lack of statistics might be that our guys don't want their guys to know what has worked the best. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: Don Firth Date: 08 Mar 05 - 06:12 PM As I understand it, it's standard operating procedure when a car approaching a check-point fails to stop when signaled to do so to fire at the engine compartment in an effort to disable the car. It's fairly obvious that when the shooting started, the car was still approaching the check-point, so the engine compartment and the passenger compartment would be more-or-less in line—not broadside to the line of fire. At the same time, under the assumption that the approaching car (which had [allegedly] ignored signals to stop, remember), the soldiers were more concerned with stopping what might very well be an explosive-laden car driven by suicide bombers than they were in the safety and well-being of the car's occupants. Even assuming that the shooting was accurate, under such circumstances not even the most precise marksman can guarantee that his bullets will strike the engine-block head-on and not hit it obliquely and ricochet on through the passenger compartment (a machine-gun, remember—not the most easy firearm to shoot with precision). I have no knowledge of what actually did happen (any more than anyone else who has posted here—let's face it, this is all speculation), but I do have some knowledge of a) firearms; b) geometry; and c) the behavior of bullets hitting hard objects such as a cast-iron engine block at oblique angles. The bullet tends to continue in the same direction, deflected a bit (generally at a reciprocal angle) by skipping off the hard surface. There have even been instances of bullets fired across a body of fairly smooth water in which the bullet skipped off the water's surface, like skipping a flat rock. Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: GUEST Date: 08 Mar 05 - 06:15 PM what i see as the major issue to be illuminated by this act is that the US forces, 150,000 strong, absolutely cannot secure a stretch of road between bagdad and the airport. this means that the force that is constantly touted as the greatest military in the history of the world IS IMPOTENT. has no clothes. sucks. can be snookered by a few thousand insurgents with no army, no navy, no air force, no battle lines.US citizens are mesmerized because we have the biggest fireworks and the best propaganda but, guess what?! the people united can beat us. they ARE beating us. and so our demoralized troops lash out and these sad events happen. and they are not going to stop. the bush crime family is doing its best to destroy our country. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 08 Mar 05 - 06:26 PM Haven't followed Ebbie's link yet but shouldn't that quote she's provided be amended in one respect? I would suggest "No, if they want you, and they've got you bracketed and braced, that's the end of someone." As it stands now, it bestows on the US military a level of competence that they often fail to achieve. (Not their fault, from everything I hear. They seem to be thrust into situations for which they have no proper training.) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: CarolC Date: 08 Mar 05 - 06:29 PM Sgrena has said that when the shooting started, she lay down on the floor in front of the back seat and that Nicola Calipari covered her with his body to shield Sgrena from the bullets. So considering the line of fire theory and the fact that they were supposed to have been aiming at the engine block, it would seem to me most likely that the driver of the car would have been the first one killed. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: GUEST,Obie Date: 08 Mar 05 - 06:30 PM These incidents are happening all the time in Iraq but this one made your news because it was such a high profile. For a country with such pride in freedom of the press, I wonder why there is not a demand for more objective news coverage. In Canada we can get CBS, NBC, FOX, CNN, ABC, & PBS. They all seem to downplay what is happening and continue to link Iraq to 911. I can understand the terrible stressful situations that your soldiers face and I am sure that they are doing their best to remain alive until they can return home. Of course that makes them trigger happy! The sin and shame lies with the leaders who send your fine young people into this situation. Sadam is long gone and the time is long past for Bush to be gone as well. If the excuse to remain is that civil war may break out when they leave, that is the same folly of fools that keeps Britsh troops in Northern Ireland. As for establishing democracy in Iraq, any thinking fool will realize that it can't be imposed by an occupying force. Obie |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: robomatic Date: 08 Mar 05 - 06:50 PM I just saw ABC news which (supposedly) showed a picture of the car and it's hard to imagine a tank had anything to do with it. The car looked to be in pretty good shape. The Americans are claiming that the vehicle was traveling VERY fast and barely under control and in no ways prepared to stop for anything. I'm putting this in now because my last post gave more credence to Ms. Sgrena's story than I should have. Her story appears to be more and more bogus. I am now going to wait for more reports and hard evidence. Obie I appreciate your understanding, but we're there now. Going back in history, maybe the Yanks didn't make such a good landing on Omaha Beach. Our aquatic tanks foundered and our officers were shot down. But we made it past the bunkers. I'm glad we didn't turn around during the Battle Of The Bulge. Another thing to remember is there was a Pre-D-Day major practice landing on the coast of England which turned into a horror show. German PT boats started potting away at the forces and over a thousand men were lost. This entire operation and all losses were kept out of the news for years and the casualties loaded into D-Day landing figures. As I mentioned above, there are valid military reasons to withhold information from the enemy. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 08 Mar 05 - 07:31 PM "the excuse to remain is that civil war may break out when they leave" - the precise excuse which the Syrians have given for their presence in Lebanon, which Bush has been so dismissive about. ............ "Her story appears to be more and more bogus." Why, she probably shot herself and Nicola, as a way of making the Americans look bad... "Bogus" in this case presumably meaning "not consistent with the version given by the soldiers who actually did the shooting". Here is the (equally "bogus") version by the Italian foreign minister: "In Rome, Fini said the Italian reconstruction 'doesn't fully coincide with what has been communicated by U.S. authorities,' including on whether the car was speeding and if the occupants had been warned. According to Fini the car was 'traveling at a speed that couldn't have been more than 25 miles per hour.' A light, he said, was flashed at the car after a curve and that gunfire started immediately afterward. It lasted 15 to 20 seconds, he said. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 08 Mar 05 - 07:33 PM So is that why US broadcasters link Iraq with 911, Robo? To confuse the enemy? That's supposing Obie's right with his assertion. I must say it seems incredible that anyone could make that link. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 08 Mar 05 - 07:46 PM I have now heard that it was not technically a 'tank' but a couple of Humvees - I do believe that .50 cal MGs are turret mounted on top - at least if my major source of US Military info is correct - Hollywood movies such as 'Blackhawk Down'.... :-) A couple of Humvees would be more believable if it was a spontaneous temporary roadblock. To most people with no great military knowledge or 'hobby interest' in military hardware, they would doubtless be thought of as 'tanks'. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 08 Mar 05 - 08:06 PM An armoured Humvee - "tank" seems a fair enough word to use. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 08 Mar 05 - 08:18 PM HOLY BATSHIT!!! What's that on top?!!! Don't look nuttin' like what was in the movie! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: robomatic Date: 08 Mar 05 - 10:10 PM " An armoured Humvee - "tank" seems a fair enough word to use." Not if you're a journalist reporting the facts, along with a lot of other facts not born out by events. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: Don Firth Date: 08 Mar 05 - 10:30 PM Nope. A TANK is considerably larger, much more heavily armored, runs on treads rather than tires, and is equipped with various kinds of armament including a .50 cal. machine gun and a 105 mm. cannon. Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: dianavan Date: 09 Mar 05 - 12:51 AM Robo, you said, "As I mentioned above, there are valid military reasons to withhold information from the enemy." Thats a no-brainer, duh............ What about communication in the field with your own forces and with your allies? Seems to be a common problem with the U.S. Commander in Chief. Maybe if the pentagon would spend more time communicating in the field and less time manipulating communication at home, they might have a little more credibility in the world. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: robomatic Date: 09 Mar 05 - 03:59 AM di-van: I agree it should be a no-brainer. Thanks for pointing that out. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: robomatic Date: 09 Mar 05 - 04:42 AM Here's a link to the photo claimed to be that of Sgrena's car. It's the same one shown on ABC television news Tuesday evening. Attributed Sgrena car photo |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 09 Mar 05 - 06:12 AM Ok Military Experts - what is that on the top of that Humvee - it's not a WWII vintage .50 cal MG... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: Wolfgang Date: 09 Mar 05 - 07:31 AM A different angle: Italy, some sources say, has as a consequence of that incident changed its never publicly stated policy in Iraq. Up to now they have paid in the case of abductions of Italians in Iraq. Several million dollars of Italian money have been transferred this way to those people who abduct, bomb, and shoot daily in Iraq. This handling is said to have been stopped now by Berlusconi. Giuseppe d'Avanzo (in Repubblica) speaks of "collective (Italian) hypocrisy", gives Italy a part of the guilt for the death and writes: We have paid to get Agliani, Cupertino and Stefio back. We have paid to save the two Simones. We have paid to be able to give a burial to (murdered) Fabrizio Quattrocchi. The Italians pay. This maxim is a catastrophe in a country in which the security of all Western people is in jeopardy. One Civil servant is quoted by the 'Corriere della Sera': It is now no more possible that the guerilla in Iraq shops rockets in Dubai with Italian money. Wolfgang |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: John Hardly Date: 09 Mar 05 - 08:07 AM The "reporter" was not kidnapped. She colluded with the terrorists (she was as anti_American as they) to get the multi-million dollar ransom from the Italians which they unwisely (illegally?) paid to the terrorists. Upon release, the "reporter" failed to take into account that there would be checkpoints, and didn't have a believable answer as to how she had secured a release from terrorists whose habit was to behead those they've kidnapped. That inability to answer inquiry at a chickpoint caused panic in the Italian car. They decided to try to run the checkpoint. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 09 Mar 05 - 08:29 AM GDT! ADP? Good Conspiracy Theory! Any Documentable Proof? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 09 Mar 05 - 08:34 AM Gawd - Typos... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: Wolfgang Date: 09 Mar 05 - 09:44 AM GCT? No, making fun of Mudcatters who know already who's to blame. Wolfgang |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: Little Hawk Date: 09 Mar 05 - 12:40 PM William Shatner was in no way responsible for this latest Iraqi fiasco, Wolfgang, so just back off... :-) I resent the way you try to drag Shatner into every situation and make it appear that he is responsible for all the troubles in the World. I think you should get psychiatric help. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 Mar 05 - 01:27 PM Here's a piece in today's Guardian by Giuliana Sgrena about all this. This is looking murkier and murkier - here is what the Italian Prime Minister has been saying about it: The Italian prime minister, Silvio Berlusconi, said today the driver of the car in which an Italian agent was killed by US forces in Iraq last week had obeyed orders to stop. Mr Berlusconi said the car, which was taking the freed Italian hostage Giuliana Sgrena to Baghdad airport, pulled up immediately when American soldiers flashed a warning light at it. The prime minister told the Italian senate that the intelligence agent Nicola Calipari, who received a state funeral in Rome on Monday, had US military authorisation for his operation to secure the release of Ms Sgrena... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: Raedwulf Date: 09 Mar 05 - 01:59 PM Like I said earlier, Kevin, we'll never know The Truth; and too many will pick & choose which "facts" they want to believe. I remain cynical about all 3 sides (the (US) military is almost incapable of telling the unspun truth, the Communist Italian journalist not only is not in a position to be objective by personal experience, she has a twice-over natural bent for distortion, the Italian govt is currently trying to recover a minor PR disaster of it's own i.e. "everyone" "knows" that they deal with with kidnappers & pay big ransoms...) - who is likely to tell the unvarnished truth in these circumstances? Incidentally, it was Wesley S who first mentioned "tank", but whether it was or not is rather beside the point. Wesley also stated "400 rounds" which clearly implies a machine gun. Neither a main cannon, nor a single barrel 20mm can achieve this rate of fire. Whether it was a tank or Humvee, both mount HMGs. I'm suspicious of the alleged photo of the car, though. It looks remarkably undamaged - even the windscreen looks intact. Does anyone know by who, & how, this photo was released? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: robomatic Date: 09 Mar 05 - 02:11 PM ....Still waiting for facts... Thanks McG. We now have THREE versions and counting... Silvio Berlusconi, who wasn't there, said the Italians stopped for the Americans BEFORE being shot. Ms. Sgrena has said the Italians were not speeding and were not warned there was a checkpoint and received no orders to stop and were fired upon from a tank (I heard her on the BBC two days ago). The Americans as of Tuesday night were saying that the Italian car was speeding and not responding to signals to stop. The photos that are supposed to be of the car show at most bullet damage. From peripheral 'sources' I've heard that the Italians say the Americans were aware of what was going down. The Americans say they didn't know. Ms. Sgrena's article referenced by McGrath seems to indicate that it was considered important to keep the Americans from knowing. Ms. Sgrena's article appears to be translated by someone with better English than she appeared to have when she was interviewed by the BBC. Reading the article makes me feel that she is a journalist in name only, or perhaps limited by her knowledge of the language if she wrote the English herself. Nevertheless it doesn't provide a firm timeline nor the observational acuity that I associate with perceptive people. Kind of like Hunter S. Thompson of recent memory only not at the Kentucky races and on a different 'stream' of consciousness. Let's be fair, the lady has been kidnapped, released, shot and wounded. But why does her narrative stop at shots fired? What happaned when the Americans found out who they were. There's an important point to be made. If she was indeed a conscious American target, and the Americans had killed her protector, why didn't they finishy the job. Then there would be only ONE story to tell. She also indicates a level of naivete that is normally reserved for Europeans to apply to Americans. In her articles conclusion of impressions from her captivity she seems to be surprised that kidnappers who force her to make taped entreaties don't want her to report from an 'anti-American' perspective. I don't know whether her charges of American 'targetting' of her car is due to a pre-conceived orientation, Stockholm sydrome, or a need to 'spin' an explanation from the chaos of events that occur in violent situations. But it ain't rational. And the duty of a journalist is to provide a rational framework in order to better understand events. Otherwise, she's just another body stopping a bullet for someone. One interesting bit of 'information' in Sgrena's screed: The driver was on a cell-phone! This is the best argument I've heard to date for not driving while using those things. She may have inadvertently advanced the puzzle of what happened if by her words we can consider that the driver was distracted from THE MOST DANGEROUS ROAD IN BAGHDAD because he was using the phone! McGrath, rather than murkier it could be getting clearer, BUT>>>> ....STILL WAITING FOR THE FACTS |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: Wolfgang Date: 09 Mar 05 - 02:18 PM Thanks, McGrath, for pointing to the contradictions in the Italian versions of the incident. Ms Sgrena first said in an interview that there was no warning signal, now in the Guardian article she skips over that point and writes I can only remember gunfire (quite in line with what robomatic assumed about the perceptual abilities of a backseat passenger, BTW) Berlusconi says the Italians stopped immediately when seeing a warning signal. BTW, Italian secretary of foreign affairs Gianfranco Fini yesterday: "Nobody has given a sign to stop." The Italians don't seem to agree yet about that detail. Murky, yes, but not more than usual in such situations. Contradictory accounts and even the same people giving slightly different accounts at different times is normal. Sgrena (last night in Italian TV): "I have never said that the Americans wanted to kill me". Wolfgang |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 Mar 05 - 02:40 PM Precisely - it's all very unclear, and even after the investigations have been caried out, it'll still be far from clear, these things always are. But what is clear, and what ought to be the central issue, is that a fair number of ordinary Iraqis have been killed in these kinds of incidents, and nobody seems to have been giving it the attention it deserves. Every now and again a story makes it into the press, and if it's bad enough there are promises about inquiries - and that's it. Kicked into touch, and the world moves on. And there are no indications that anything has been learned from the tragedy to stop it all happening next time. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: Wolfgang Date: 09 Mar 05 - 02:45 PM The kidnappers appeared to be very religious, continuously praying on the Koran. (Sgrena in Guardian atricle) The kidnappers were not strict Muslims (Sgrena in interview translated in German newspaper) Normal, very very normal. Eyewitnesses, in particular after having had fear for their lives (or having felt strong emotions for encountering something unexplainable to them), adapt their recollection of the event to the script they later consider the most likely to have happened to them. In particular, during the first days the story often changes. Some days later, in particular for people retelling the story quite often, the story settles for a more permanent version. Not because of herself Ms Sgrena cannot be trusted to report each detail correctly, anybody in her situation would be like her. BTW, for those liking to point out that she was working for a communist newspaper, she was also working for DIE ZEIT, the most respectable very middle of the road German weekly newspaper. Wolfgang |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 Mar 05 - 04:00 PM In any case there is nothing particularly inconsistent between reading the Koran and praying, and not being "strict Muslims". Just transfer those comments to Christians you know. There are plenty of people who might read the Gospels, and say prayers, especially in a time of crisis, are far from being regular church members, or "strict Christians". Muslims come in all sorts, the same way as Christians or Jews. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: robomatic Date: 09 Mar 05 - 05:26 PM There's nothing inconsistent if you re-arrange the words in her story to make them match with the soldier's reports. It all makes so much sense now. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: DougR Date: 09 Mar 05 - 07:41 PM What a rush to judgement! Why not wait until the investigations are completed BEFORE hanging the U. S. soldiers? DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 Mar 05 - 09:25 PM I wholly agree with Doug about it being wrong to rush to any kind of judgement, either way, in the absence of clearer information. The only clear thing is that this should not have happened - what eactly did happen, and why it happened, are still very much open questions. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: Don Firth Date: 10 Mar 05 - 12:41 PM You will note, Doug, that this is what several people here, including me, have been saying all along. So far it's all speculation based on conflicting stories. Everybody has an ax to grind. You are right, but at the same time, let's not exonerate anyone prematurely. Wait and watch. Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: beardedbruce Date: 10 Mar 05 - 06:35 PM Don, So, innocent until proven guilty can only apply to those that you support, and those you oppose are guilty until proven innocent? UNTIL there is some proof, perhaps the US forces should be taken at their word, and the incident considered an accident. Investigation is required, regardless. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 10 Mar 05 - 06:58 PM Raedwulf, I've been noting much good sense in your posts, so was surprised to see you saying: "she has a twice-over natural bent for distortion." Is this a reference to the susceptibility of post-trauma recollection as explained by Wolfgang, or are you hinting at something else? By the way, Wolfgang, just to go back to the point I took up with Robomatic, and which you queried.... I had taken Sgrena's claim that there was no warning to be, inter alia, a contradiction of the US claim that warning shots had been fired. I still think a back-seat passenger could have formed a view about that. If the first shots she heard were the ones that hit the car, then she is entitled to say she thinks no warning shots were fired. I take the point that she has subsequently turned out to be a bit inconsistent about whether there were any other warning signals. I'm pleased to see DougR seconding my suggestion that we give the inquiry a chance. I don't think it will be the cynical exercise that some are fatalistically expecting. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: robomatic Date: 10 Mar 05 - 06:59 PM And I wondered how we were going to while away the time while we waited for the facts! Seriously, someone mentioned that it might be an issue that Ms. Sgrena worked for a Communist publication. I don't know where Communism has 'gone to ground' since the Big Kahuna fell at the end of the millenium. So, are there a lot of Communists left in Europe these days? Is there an issue over Ms. Sgrena representing such a publication? Is she a free-lancer? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: Don Firth Date: 10 Mar 05 - 07:03 PM Beardedbruce, you obviously have not been reading what I have posted. Where the hell did you get that? Out of thin air? That's what I've been saying all along!! Fer Chrissake, read what I have written before you start popping off at me! Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: beardedbruce Date: 10 Mar 05 - 07:06 PM "You are right, but at the same time, let's not exonerate anyone prematurely. " seems to imply that there is some guilt to be given. Pardon me if I misinterpreted. I may be oversensitive when it comes to the attitude here that the US is ALWAYS at fault, and can be blamed without any evidence, but all others are to be presumed innocent until absolute proof has been presented- even then, it remains the fault of the US, it seems. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: GUEST,Don Firth Date: 10 Mar 05 - 08:00 PM Yes, BB, you did misinterpret. When lots of people seemed to assume automatically that the Italian reporter was telling the gospel truth and that the Americans tried to kill her because they don't like her views, I have been essentially defending the troops who fired on the approaching car. You would know this had you read my posts. When Doug leaped to the conclusion that everybody was condemning the troops, I pointed out to him that not everyone was. But I also pointed out to him that we don't know yet if they were as lily-pure as he assumes they are (as is his wont). I have said several times that in the light of conflicting stories and the fact that none of us knows definitively what actually happened, anything anyone says on this thread is pure speculation. In short, I have kept saying all along, don't jump to conclusions. And to you I say, don't jump to conclusions about my views about anything unless I say specifically what I think. If you try to label and pigeon-hole me, you will most assuredly be wrong. Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: beardedbruce Date: 10 Mar 05 - 08:25 PM Don, I was wrong in my interpretation of your comment- I apologize. 8-{E |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: Don Firth Date: 10 Mar 05 - 10:18 PM We're okay, then. Carry on. Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: Troll Date: 11 Mar 05 - 12:30 AM The reason that the US is instantly at fault in matters like these is that there are those who hate whatever administration is in power and want to see it fail, even at the expense of innocent people. There are others who hate America for political reasons, so America is alwaye wrong, even if they have to tell the most outrageous lies to achieve that goal. I am not saying that the US, the Bush Administration, or anyone else is perfect, but I have noticed over the years that we are always persumed guily by certain groups even if proven innocent. This incident could be investigated by Saddam himself and if the US was found to be not at fault, there are those who would stridently complain that it was a whitewash job. I have seen several different accounts of the incident. In one Ms Sgrena said that they were going slow and in an earlier account that they were going so fast that the driver was having trouble keeping the car on the road. I don't reacll if she said the road was wet or not. Then theres the questiom of the tank. If a tank had fired it's cannon at the car and hit it, there would have been NO survivors. I am sure that everyone has seen, over the past years, light vehicles hit by tank fire and no, an armored Humvee is not a tank. It doesn't even look like a tank. I post my own conspiracy theory at this point. It all happened according to any one of a half-dozen possible scenarios and Ms. Sgrena saw an opportunity to blacken the US eye and increase her own standing in the anti-American media community. A win-win situation for her unless she can be proven a liar. From the different stories she's been telling, that may not be too difficult. We shall see. troll BTW Wolfgang, the fact that she writes for a moderate German magazine doesn't negate her stated political leanings. And the German Govt. didn't pay the ransom. troll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: dianavan Date: 11 Mar 05 - 01:51 AM Has anyone heard if it was during the day or at night? I have also heard that her kidnappers would not accept a ransom. Wow, is this story a mixed up mess. I think its what Hunter Thompson referred to when he wrote, "Myths and legends die hard in America. We love them for the extra dimension they provide, the illusion of near-infinite possibility to erase the narrow confines of most men's reality." This is the industry of deception and ethically altered politicians. To most of the world, it seems to be America's biggest export. Its not as if its the first time the U.S. administration has lied. I certainly don't blame the soldiers. How easy it is to withold information as a means to an end. How easy it is to follow orders. How easy it is to kill someone with friendly fire if you perceive that person to be a threat. Its war. Shit happens. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: GUEST Date: 11 Mar 05 - 03:11 AM "The reason that the US is instantly at fault in matters like these is that there are those who hate whatever administration is in power and want to see it fail, even at the expense of innocent people. There are others who hate America for political reasons..." god am i sick of you "hate america" morons. the reason many people suspect the US government in cases like these is because america has been involved in many covert and overt operations resembling this type of thing for, like, DECADES! many have been proven and many have even been admitted to by the gov't (many years after the fact, of course). read a history book! many people in other parts of the world hate america because america has intervened in their soverign affairs and manipulated their governments to the USs own advantage! in other words, to simplify for the morons, the US has a credibility problem. for americans to realize this and point it out does not mean they "hate america". it means they are fulfilling their duty as citizens to reign in a corrupt regime. our own. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 11 Mar 05 - 04:07 AM Well put GUEST! The US Political Administration just keeps on shooting itself in the foot with regard to its credibility - the And some Americacans (interesting Freudian typo that one!) wonder why much of the rest of the world is cynical... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 11 Mar 05 - 05:46 AM Some in the west, and in in particular very many in the US, seem to have been brainwashed into believing that anything to do with communism is automatically bad. Troll's post above typifies this attitude. (Strangely, some of those who subscribe to it still manage to be impressed by those who stood out against the HUAC witch-hunt in the US.) There is a world of difference between eurocommunism, which is the predominant strand of communism in Italy, and Stalinism. By most estimations Tito's regime in Yugoslavia was communist, yet it brought a period of stability to the region unprecedented in the past 200 years. And among all the warring factions in Croatia, Bi-H and Serbia in the 1990s, the one thing they all had in common ws respect for Tito. If you have to rush to judgment on Ms Sgrena, Troll, try to judge her for herself rather than against whatever stereotypes you've filled your head with. |
