BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Peace
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 08:54 PM

Remarks from Sgrena

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 12:15 AM

Carol: My remarks on Communism were not directed at Ms. Sgrena. They stand fine as they are. Your comments are rather confusing because Communism as practised pretty much in any country calling itself such was an overarching totalitarian system incorporating not only a command economy, but a command media, command philosophy, cult of personality, and command arts & sciences staffed from a command educational system.

My question on whether the fact that there are now eurocommunists is any different than the fact that there are now euronazis extant was never answered.

As to Ms. Sgrena, her assertions of being targeted by Americans (as opposed to being shot for speeding past a checkpoint) were not based on any facts that she brought forward. There is some question as to whether she is still asserting them. Her relation of the facts as she knows them seems to be a moving target. These qualities speak for themselves irrespective of what you call her or she calls herself, the most important word is not whether she qualifies as a big C or little c Communist, but whether she qualifies as any sort of journalist.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 02:34 AM

I doubt whether journalism or communism was in Ms Sgrena's mind immediately following the incident. The trauma of being a hostage and of being the target of U.S. troops would clearly indicate that she has been victimized. I don't think its fair to criticize anything she has to say about the matter. She was there and it was her life that was at stake. On top of that, she now bears the burden of survivor's guilt. To start criticizing her ability to be objective or to question her political motives is highly insensitive.

troll - From my link of Mar. 5 7:21 - One Pentagon version claims that you were driving at more than 100 miles an hour, 160 kilometres an hour.

"Absurd. Just after saying that, the driver braked because there was a sharp right-hand bend. He slowed right down. We certainly weren't going fast. As we were coming out of the bend, the gunfire started. From the right and the rear. Burst of fire and single shots. It's not true that they shot at the engine, from in front".

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 02:45 AM

From CBS news -

"Berlusconi told the Senate this week that Calipari had informed the proper authorities that he was heading to the airport with the freed hostage. He said the car was traveling slowly and stopped immediately when a light was flashed at a checkpoint, before U.S. troops fired on the car.

In a statement released after the shooting, the U.S. Army's 3rd Infantry Division, which controls Baghdad, said the vehicle was speeding and refused to stop. The statement also said a U.S. patrol tried to warn a driver with hand and arm signals, by flashing white lights and firing shots in front of the car into the car's engine block.

In interviews published Friday, Sgrena said that no light was flashed at the vehicle and that the shots were not fired in front of the car.

"It's not true that they shot into the engine," she told Corriere della Sera, adding that the shooting came "from the right and from behind."

In a parliament speech earlier this week, Foreign Minister Gianfranco Fini said photos of the vehicle, which is still in Iraq, show that the fire "hit the right side of the car."

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 02:48 AM

Your comments are rather confusing because Communism as practised pretty much in any country calling itself such was an overarching totalitarian system incorporating not only a command economy, but a command media, command philosophy, cult of personality, and command arts & sciences staffed from a command educational system.

Yes. If you look at it in terms of countries that have called themselves communist. But if you think in terms of a country that considers itself a democracy, but one in which communism is practiced, you get a whole different perspective. I'm guessing that there are no examples of a democratic country that practices communism so far. I'm guessing that there are people (Ms. Sgrena possibly being one of them) who believe that it is still possible, and would like to help nurture such a political and economic environment.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 02:48 PM

Robo, I thought your question about eurocommunism v euronazism was answered. The former have been part of mainstream democratic politics in Europe for many years. The same cannot be said for fasism in any shape or form. Foulestroupe's point about what Soviets called their system is obviously to be taken with a pinch of salt. Basically they called it whatever Uncle Koe wanted them to call it.

Here in the UK I read the daily paper the Morning Star, which gives better coverage of labour-relations issues etc than some of the other papers. It has a kind of communist agenda which I can take or leave, but it is better than some of the filth (which I also keep an eye on) produced by the press barons. I don't know about the mag Sgrena works for, but it would be absurd to blacken her purely because it is communist.

My point all along has been that there is a gulf of difference between American and European perceptions of communism. I don't know that it's necessary (if this is what Carol is implying) to find new terminology just because US paranoia has debased the terminology we already have. (And Christian paranoia too, for that matter. Let's not forget that the Vatican at one time railed against liberalism, and even democracy.)

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 03:27 PM

Don Firth:

There is a major difference between:
(Correct version):
If I am not for myself who will be for me?

and:
(Incorrect version):
If I am not for myself, who am I?

The first has a very specific point to make, the second is kind of nebulous, or mysterious, it could be applied in so many ways that in fact it loses meaning. The correct version goes better with the two lines which follow, and which you already had correct.

So I did not think I was making a niggling remark to call your attention to it. Obviously I thought it was significant enough to bring it up here.

I don't think Hillel's comment compares with Jesus' "Love Thy Neighbor as Thyself" . I think they are different sayings with different meanings and applications. You can find "Love the stranger in thy midst" in Hebrew scripture which may be the origin of Jesus' saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 03:29 PM

My point all along has been that there is a gulf of difference between American and European perceptions of communism. I don't know that it's necessary (if this is what Carol is implying) to find new terminology just because US paranoia has debased the terminology we already have.

No, my point is exactly the same one you are making. That there is a gulf of difference between how people in the US and Europe react to and understand the words "communism" and "communist", and that this difference in perception is important to keep in mind when discussing the credibility or lack of credibility of Ms. Sgrena based on her being a Communist.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 03:44 PM

A soldier will have to live with that on their conscience.
This is a young bloke who has probably been out there for afew months, is scared to death, has seen friends get shot and has shot other people, and is fully aware of just how fragile life is for him at the moment. Its a fucked up situation, things like this happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 05:33 PM

Honestly, robomatic, I didn't intend to make a federal case out of it, nor am I particularly ego-involved in the accuracy of the translation, especially since it is not my own (as I said, I don't speak Hebrew). I was relaying the Hillel quote as it was translated for me by my friend, who spoke Hebrew fluently. If it was not as most people would translate it, that I don't know. I presume that my friend had a reason for translating it the way he did. Perhaps it is one of those things that can be read either way, but as to that, I couldn't say.

But—what I was attempting to point out in my original post on the subject was that, as Troll posted it, the quote was incomplete. "If I am not for myself, who will be?" (or whatever) standing by itself could be someone's brief for self-centeredness. In the complete thought that Hillel was endeavoring to put across, "If I am only for myself, what am I?" negates the self-centered aspect of it. That was where I drew the parallel with the Jesus quote, which strikes me as saying essentially the same thing, but in a somewhat different frame.

Anyway, that's all I was trying to say.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 05:36 PM

Also, the "who am I? / what am I?" parallelism seemed poetically consistent to me.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 06:53 PM

Don:
I'm going to apologize because I sense that I'm getting your goat and that is not what I was trying to do. I agree and applaud with your filling out the complete quote for the thread. It's a great quote and one I think of a great deal. I was trying to 'speak to the quote' not play any kind of upmanship and I've said all I need to say on the subject. Peace unto you.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 07:18 PM

Re:

Communism
Or
"A rose, by any other name, would stink the same"
(Willie the Shake)

A drunk was on his hands and knees at the base of a street lamp. the cop on the beat went over to him. "What's the matter, mac?"
"Dropped my keys," said the tipsillated one.
"Just a minute and I'll help," said the cop, but there were no keys to be found. "You sure you were here when you dropped 'em?"
"No," said the drunk, "I was at my front door over there," he pointed to a house about 200 feed away.
The copy said,"Then why are you looking for your keys over here?"
the drunk answered, "The light is better here!"

And so after 100 years of Marxism, and 70 plus years of absolute control over a great country, Communism had so utterly failed as a system of economy, philosophy, and every other way except some capable use of physical intimidation, that it collapsed from the inside. And what is left is so rotten and corrupt that recovery is not assured. This is where the accrual of certainty leads.

I had a chance to visit the Soviet Union in better times. Their economy was doing well, they were doing cutting edge space exploration, and the ice cream was terrific. But try to tell a joke on the street and a friend would shut you up. And if you asked what was wrong with political jokes you were fed a bunch of long-winded propaganda. In America the only problem with political jokes is when they get elected.

So for those of you who think it is merely a matter of properly 'labeling' the 'politics de jour' you can label every 'defeat' a 'victory' and really simplify matters. The folks who called themselves Communists in Eastern Europe and China created civil wars, massive population displacements, economic malfunctions, military industrial complexes, show trials, mass starvation, and doublethink. If you look hard to the east you can see that of the three remaining governmental systems, one has been able to starve hundreds of thousands of its own citizens while pursuing nuclear weapons, and the other two are CINO's, they are practising state sponsored capitalism after a fashion in maoist rags.

The existence of eurocommunism makes me think of the Santayana phrase about what befalls those who do not learn from history. But what it really makes me ponder is that poor drunk on his hands and knees looking for those keys where the light is better.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Troll
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 07:20 PM

I recall reading somewhere (I guess I should archive this stuff) that the driver said there was a light and immediately afterward the shooting started. We are told that Ms. Sgrena was in the back seat. I will assume that the driver was in the front and probably in a better position to see the road ahead.

Another thing that bothers me is her statement that they had just rounded a sharp bend in the road and so were going quite slowly. I don't know how they build six-lane highways in Iraq, but I've never seen a major multi-lane hiway with sharp bends. Usually they are fairly gentle and banked so that traffic flows smoothly. A major hiway like the one to the Baghdad Airport would surely be of modern design if only to avoid delaying Saddam on his way to and fro.

Has anyone got a map of that section of road that they could share or provide a link to? It would sure help me understand this particular part of the incident better

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 07:32 PM

No apology necessary, robomatic. I probably didn't make myself clear in my original post about the quote, and I just wanted to straighten out where I was coming from.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 08:53 PM

I heard recently that the European Parliament tried to ban the Swastika - but India - who have used it as a Religious Symbol for Goodness for ages strongly objected. It's not the object - but the societal mental associations.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 09:08 PM

troll - I don't have a map but... "Sgrena said, "It was the alternative route to the airport, that one that as far as I know goes through the American-controlled green zone and avoids residential areas."

If you find out where that road is and how many lanes it has, let me know.

What I don't understand is why you think she would be going out of her way to mislead an investigation. Seems there were two survivors and they both seem to agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Troll
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 01:31 AM

Dianavan - She's anti-American by her own admission. I would think that the chance to inflict damage on America would be reason enough.

Even if the investigation proves her wrong, the accusation has been made and the damage done. Dr. Goebels knew the value of the lie in shaping opinions. There are plenty of people who are ready to believe the worst about us, regardless of the final outcome.

Her story keeps changing. First it was a tank and 300 to 400 bullets. Well, I saw pictures of an armored SUV that was hit 35 times by heavy machinegun fire. All the windows were gone, the four people inside dead, and it was obvious that the car had been in a fight.

The pics that I saw of Ms. Sgrena's car showed 1 (one) bullet hole in the front windshield and a flat left front tire.

Either the shooters were (a) such good shots that they were able to put 300 to 400 shots through one hole or (b) such lousy shots that they missed altogether.

She also said that the shots came from the right and from the rear.
With a dead man on top of her, I don't see how she could tell. from the right I could accept; the bullet hole in the windshield was on the right-hand side. But from the rear?

If the windshield hole was made from the rear, where is the entry hole?

I also read that in a BBC interview, she said that they shined a light into the car and then started shooting.

But wait! Didn't she say that there was no light?

Ah well.

I found most of this info from a bloger called Jawa and on his links.I found the site when I Googled "Sgrenas car photos". The photos were first published in "Republica", an Italian publication.

No joy on a map as yet.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 02:10 AM

troll, there is a difference between what she has said and what others have said.

"Her editor, Gabriele Polo, said Italian officials told him 300-400 rounds were fired at the car."

Please tell me where she said that.

There is also a difference between a warning light and a light followed immediately by live ammunition.

There are many unanswered questions but I think you are putting words in Sgrena's mouth.

Did she say she was anti-American or did she say that she did not approve of the war in Iraq? There's a big difference.

Did she say she was a target? I think that theory was put forth by a former U.S. Air Force intelligence officer: "It is quite reasonable to assume, given the immorality of war and of this war in particular, that it was considered a military target."

Jerry Fresia

Seems to me that you and alot of others are trying to discredit Sgrena. Why? What are you afraid of? Do you think she might tell the world what happened in Fallujah?

I want to hear what she has to say after the investigation.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 04:48 AM

Sgrena told colleagues the vehicle was not travelling fast and had already passed several checkpoints on its way to the airport. The Americans shone a flashlight at the car and then fired between 300 and 400 bullets at if from an armoured vehicle.

from this article in the left of the middle Guardian.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 06:59 AM

It seems to have been overlooked that this was not the first journalist who was killed by US troops in Iraq - about a dozen other - and many of them are claimed to have been deliberately targeted - and in some cases sound track & video exists of the unprovoked firing on them.

It would understandable that she may fear the same treatment....

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 01:13 PM

No. 1) We're still waiting for facts.

Foolestroupe you're correct that many journalists have died from crossfire, proximity to rocket attack, and partisans of the same ilk as allegedly kidnapped Ms. Sgrena.

But checkpoints are effing dangerous. Yesterday I heard a radio interview with a Washington Post reporter who was traveling recently with a group of GIs who stopped to set up one of those 'intermediate' roadblocks. They explained that they were trying to stop suicide car bombs. "How do you find them?" she asked.

"We find them when they try to blow us up."

So for better or worse, that's the mind set of the soldiers, who are folk like you and me who are expecting someone to try and kill THEM.

Anyhow, Ms. Sgrena has actually spoken enough that her own words are contradicting her other words.

SO:

Refer to No 1) Still waiting for facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Troll
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 04:44 PM

Dianavan, the quote below is from a report in The Guardian, which is certainly NOT a US supporter.

"Sgrena told colleagues the vehicle was not travelling fast and had already passed several checkpoints on its way to the airport. The Americans shone a flashlight at the car and then fired between 300 and 400 bullets at if from an armoured vehicle."

I hope this clears up that point.

I tend not to put words in other peoples mouths deliberately. Since I am not perfect, I do sometimes slip but it is never deliberate and, as any of the old-timers on the forum can tell you, if I'm wrong, I generally 'fess up.

If you'd like to read her version of the events (her FIRST version) in her own words, go to the il Manifesto site. They have a whole stack of her columns on archive.

Btw, apparently she didn't have much of an expose about Fallujah. Seems the civilian leaders didn't want to talk to her. It's all in her article "My Truth".

Read it,if you haven't already.

troll

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 06:11 PM

Just heard on the news that PM Berlusconi has announced he's pulling Italian troops out of Iraq starting in September:

Italians to Pull Out

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 10:11 PM

"Seems the civilian leaders didn't want to talk to her"

Well, sympathetic to their cause or not, she is a woman... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 12:02 AM

The check point that fired on Sgrena and killed Calipari was a temporary checkpoint set up for Negroponte. Sgrena and Calipari had already cleared the established check points.

There appears to be no reason the temporary check point should have been there at all since Negroponte had cleared about an hour and a half earlier. Temporary check points are usually dimantled when no longer needed.

This particular check point was still operational and leaves little doubt that it had a very specific purpose once Negroponte had cleared. American intelligence knew they were coming to the airport! I do not expect the U.S. investigation to point a finger at itself and I do think that Negroponte is capable of just about anything - look at his history.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 07:25 PM

Basically there are three possibilities:

1)It was a tragic accident and noone was to blame.

2)It was a tragic accident, and someone was to blame.

3)It was an ambush.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 01:29 PM

Sgrena's medical condition is very serious. The shell that entered her body was very big and injured her lung which continues to fill with fluid. I am astonished that other journalists have not followed up on this story. The only recent info I could find was on Znet. Please go to their site and read the latest.

Troll - This article, although it does not show a map, clearly explains the road that they were on when they were ambushed. It also details the reasons why it was not an act of self defense by the soldiers.

"According to Klein, when Calipari was killed and Sgrena wounded, they were on a secured road that can only be accessed through the heavily-fortified Green Zone and is reserved exclusively for top foreign embassy and US officials. "It's a completely separate road, actually a Saddam-era road, it would seem, that allowed his vehicles to pass directly from the airport to his palace," says Klein. "And now that is the secured route between the U.S. military base at the airport and the U.S. controlled Green Zone and the U.S. embassy."

"It was a VIP road, for embassy people, not for normal people," Sgrena told Klein. "I was only able to be on that road because I was with people from the Italian embassy."

So when Calipari, the Italian security intelligence officer, picked up Sgrena from the abandoned vehicle where her captors left her, they drove directly to that road via Green Zone.

That explains why Sgrena said that when they drove to the airport she "thought we were finally safe, because the area where we were was under the control of the United States."

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 01:25 AM

Well, well, well... Am I suprized?

After the U.S. investigated themselves, they seem to think everything was in order on their part.

Only one little problem - They won't let the Italians inspect the car or interview the soldiers.

The Italians are not taking this lightly!

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 01:39 PM

Something worth noting is the way that the media consistently treat stories like this - they swarm all over them at the start, and then move on, and nine times out of ten fail even to report at all what happens later, when the facts can be sorted out from the rumours and the alegations and the cover stories and the spin.

That even goes for the "quality press".

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 10:17 AM

I posted a longer ms this AM but some glitch swallowed it up, so I'll be brief.

I looked up dianavan's reference to znet and I think she quoted it accurately but it is distinctly different from the oft reported comments that GI s shot 'for the engine block'. The reference to the road as being independently protected and thus 'safe' was also new to me as regards this story. It also reiterates the charge that she was shot from a tank.

Last week's American TV program "60 Minutes II" featured an extended interview with Ms. Sgrena who appeared to be putting up with her wounds very well. She maintained her argument that the Americans didn't warn. The subjects of whether the road was supposed to be independently accessed and 'safe' and if the bullets were from the rear didn't come up. I had a pointer to the written synopsis of the article but I don't have time to redo my earlier post. Do a search for Sgrena "60 minutes" and it should crop up under the cbsnews.com site.

I'm now curious as to who came to the aid of the Italians and what they saw.

Supposedly the Americans will issue a release soon. I'll be very interested in how this resolves.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 01:37 PM

Although this is probably not the most reliable source. This is the best map I could find:

http://www.vialls.com/italy/sgrena.html

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 02:17 PM

Di-van:

It is a piece of crap as a source.

As an example, within the same article as the useless 'map' (which is actually an aerial photograph with red markings on it), is the assertion that most of the 'beheadings' we've witnessed on television or the web are orchestrated by CIA and Mossad.

Di-van your previous source I gave some credence to, although it looked like it was probably a hodge podge of assertions. This latest one there is no doubt is pure garbage.

The internet is a dangerous place for you, di-van. You're going to find a lot of people who lie to you and then lie on you, divan.

If you can't tell the difference between crap and information, please start your own thread. You're going to attract too many flies to this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 07:13 PM

I linked it because of the map which I think (in the absence of something more reliable) is the best that is out there. I already said I didn't think the article was the best source of information. Thats why I didn't quote it. Just because the article may be crap, doesn't mean the map is.

The internet is a dangerous place for anyone, robo. I have a critical consciousness and read all kinds of crap. Doesn't mean I believe it. I happen to think most Mudcatters can take what they need and leave the rest. What are you afraid of?

Since when do you have exclusive rights to a thread? Anyone can post here. What are you, some kind of control freak?

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 08:21 PM

Di-van:

You are absolutely right. You can post whatever you want as many times as you want. Lord knows at least you're not turning the air blue like some folks. I disagree with your self judgement that you are a critical reader. If you go back to that article AND READ IT you'll see that it is full of outrageous unfounded exaggerations. Whatever makes you think that the illustration is of anything whatsoever? What does it contribute to the he-said she-said nature of the story to-date?

There is a difference between information and content. Princeton has just published an article by a philosopher on the nature of Bullshit. Unfortunately the web provides a neverending pipeline of bullshit to all and sundry, and forums like this allow a brief interlude when we can *maybe* filter it out, in between repeating ourselves, furnishing endless blue clickies, and screaming insults at each other.

I'm finished for now. I sent you (Dianavan) a PM as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 08:32 PM

Leaving aside other points, "an aerial photograph with red markings on it" is in principle quite an accurate sort of map. A lot harder to adjust than a drawn map. (In fact the aaccount given in that rather questionable site goes against the other suggestions quoted earlier that the road used was not the main road, but a special one reserved for official use. But that doesn't necessarily mean much.

I'm hoping that reliable independent journalists or similar will dig away at this and come up with the facts behind the spins and counter spins. Anything coming out of an "official inquiry" will inevitably be pretty suspect. (That would even apply to any offical Italian inquiry, given the nature of the current Italian administration.)

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 11:19 PM

McGrath - Thanks for the reasoned approach to the questionable article and map. I, too, would hope that a reliable journalist might come up with something better.

Yes, I think you are right. The road that Sgrena was on was not the main road but a special one reserved for official use. Regardless, it appears that they cleared the checkpoints aroung the airport and were within the perimeter. This map may be wrong but it makes me wonder why no other map has been published.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 05:37 PM

dianavan,

you said "After the U.S. investigated themselves, they seem to think everything was in order on their part."


http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/04/26/italy.iraq/index.html


A pity that, like usual, you have the facts wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 09:07 PM

I posted that comment a week ago. At that time, the U.S. was claiming self-defense and stories that conflicted with those of Sgrena and the driver.

Even now, with a joint investigation, the Italians and the Americans do not agree. Until today, reports were that the American soldiers were going to be exonerated. Today the story is quite different.

I'm glad the Italians are putting on the pressure and even happier that Italian magistrates are conducting a separate investigation.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 11:08 AM

Report from a 'credible' source

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: ard mhacha
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 05:51 PM

Surely you don`t expect a fair judgement from these lying murderers, the US army will always cover up their murderous deeds.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 12:44 AM

A report from another credible source that you do not need to subscribe to:

http://www.agi.it/english/news.pl?doc=200504272027-1274-RT1-CRO-0-NF11&page=0&id=agionline-eng.oggitalia


The Italians are not finished with this investigation and Sgrena is calling for public support to reveal the truth of the matter. She is also calling for Italy to withdraw from Iraq now. She is hoping that Americans will also call for their troops to be withdrawn immediately.

I am amazed that U.S. journalists and, in fact, journalists worldwide do not cover this story more extensively. It seems to me that professionals should protect each other from this kind of abuse. Where is the integrity? For awhile, the only information we had were carbon copies. I do have faith that the truth will be told and that eventually we will hear both sides of the story. Freedom of speech is at stake here.

Sgrena is very, very sick. She is a courageous journalist who continues to battle the pain inflicted upon her by the U.S. military. There is no excuse for their actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 03:12 AM

Another credible link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4489217.stm

Google calipari or sgrena for at least 413 links.

You decide who is or is not credible.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: NH Dave
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 02:18 AM

Raedwulf, you commented on the weapon on the Humvee pictured. I was unable to view that link, but the Humvee is a multipurpose vehicle, and some version mount a TOW Anti-Tank Missile. I believe many versions, like most of the older military vehicles, are equipped to mount a .50 calibre/12 mm machine gun. I don't believe anyone making his or her living around a war zone, or more correctly, a not fully pacified zone whoud mistake a Humvee for a tank, especially if they hoped to be able to write home about it.   

This having been said, from the look of the vehicle pictured on one of the other sites, nothing larger than a 7.62 mm round was fired into it. Either a .50 cal or the 40 mm grenade launchers would have left the vehicle in tatters from the front to the rear.

From what I have read so far, it was dark, the vehicle failed to stop at the improvised check point, it was fired upon, causing the unfortunate death of a brave Italian security specialist. I can see no reason to suspect that the US Forces wished to assasinate Mrs. Sgrena, even of they had been able to pick her vehicle out from the many similar ones in use in Baghdad these days. I wasn't able to make out any sign of diplomatic plates on the Italian vehicle, but the front end looked as if it had struck something large and soild, so this isn't hard to understand. In any case, I doubt if the US patrool could have known who was in the car, a very good reason to insure that it didn't get much closer to them, after failing to stop at their signal.

Someone earlier expressed doubts that US Soldiers have the capability to or actually do think for themselves. I find this hard to believe, as robotic people make poor soldiers, and don't last long in chaotic situations like we are seeing in Iraq. Unthinking soldiers simply chuck a grenade into every window they encounter, under the theory of one of the Spanish Inquisitors, "Kill them all, God knows his own." Unfortunately, this does not make for better relations between our forces and the Iraqis, and the fact that things seem to be getting a bit better, belies this characterization of our forces.

Having read newspaper accounts of life in this area as contrasted to stories I get from people still over there, or recently returned, I think the news sources are playing up the infrequent fire fighte, and failing to mention the many instances of our pacification program actually working. Again, this having been said, the area around Baghdad and points slightly south and east are the old haunts of the formerly dominant Suunis who controled pre-war Iraq. These people have little to gain from a self governing Iraq, run my the majority Shi'ia, and the Kurds in the north, and much to lose, so it is little wonder that they are still fighting for some hopes of the old status quo.

Again, noting some of the unbiased reporting of US atrocities, abeit with a bit of salt; AC-130's don't fire bullets through a window, they reduce the entire building to finely ground rubble, leaving no stone standing upon another. If this is the sources of fact that some of the people in this thread are using, they need to reasses their facts and the sources from which they are drawn.

The US Forces based in north eastern Italy have always had a lot of unfavorable publicity from the local Communist Party, who held an annual festival honoring the first of May, now but a day away. We were asked not to become involved in these shows, let them do their thing, and we'd do ours. Unfortunately, a severe earthquake hit that region, some time ago, and as soon as we could muster our troops, as many as could be spared from the day to day running of the base were out in the smaller villes, with front or scoop loaders and heavy tractors, able to lift heavy bits of roof or upper floor from many locals still burried in the rubble, and medical facilities ready to treat anyone rescued to help preserve whatever life was still there to be saved. After this disaster, the local Communists were hard pressed to muster the crowds they usually drew, to demonstrate against the vile and depraved Capitalistic Lackies, who had helped dig uncle Luigi, or sister Marina out of what had been their home. Many more remembered the blood donated by these foreigners, who were actually not that much different than their own people, and whose blood and medecine helped save various friends in their village.

The results of the US investigation seem to have been released yesterday, and they exonerated the young men and women at that roadblock. Not surprizing, say many of the Italians and many of our detractors; and Prime Minister Burlesconi says that he will withdraw Italian troops from the Occupation Forces in Iraq.

What I think we will find after the dust has settled was that folks traveling too fast, in the dark, on a very dangerous section of road, either failed to see or interpret the need to stop at a road block, and were subsequently were fired upon; or that a car with people overjoyed that one of their own had been rescued without harm, began to blow right through a road block and were stopped. In the dark, on a dangerous section of Iraqi road, kids from downtown Scranton have a very few seconds to decide if the vehicle approaching them is a mobile improved explosive device, or just some happy civilians trying to get their countrywoman to the airport, to return home. The robotic solder would have never blinked an eye! The car would have been reduced to rubble, mixed with flesh and blood. Thinking soldiers tried to give the occupants of the car a chance to stop and identify themselves, and when no identification was offered fired as a last resort.

Nobody was right, OR wrong. Unfortunate things do happen in situations like this, and both sides uncurred harm and injury.

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 02:45 PM

44 minutes ago

"ROME - Italy and the United States said Friday the investigation into the killing of an Italian agent by U.S. forces in    Iraq had ended but they failed to fully agree on the circumstances surrounding the shooting.

"The two governments issued a joint statement into the March 4 death of intelligence agent Nicola Calipari, who was killed after he had secured the release of an Italian hostage. U.S. soldiers mistakenly fired on their vehicle as it approached a U.S. checkpoint near Baghdad's airport.

"It said the investigation into the shooting had been concluded and the two countries will now refer the case to their respective national authorities. Italy has launched its own criminal inquiry into the death.

"The investigators were unable to reach shared final conclusions, but after having jointly examined the evidence, they did agree on facts, deductions and numerous problematic recommendations," the statement said.

"Italy and the United States had worked for a month on the joint investigation in the killing, which sparked outrage in Italy and put increasing pressure on Premier Silvio Berlusconi to withdraw Italy's estimated 3,000-strong contingent from Iraq.

"But from the start, testimony from the two survivors of the shooting clashed with the U.S. military's account."

Investigated - No Agreement

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 05:16 PM

From that summary of the conclusions it sounds very much as if the US investigation team saw it as their job to accept the US military account, rather than that of the survivors, rather than to try to check out which was more consistent with the physical evidence, with no preconceptions whatsoever.

A bit of a widgery, in fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 12:33 AM

Seems to be a lot of conflicting testimony. The Italians believe the Italians and the Americans believe the Americans. No big surprise!

Unfortunately, the U.S. has lost another ally.

I hope we get to hear what the Italians have to say about the car (if its the same car) and what ballistics have to say about whether they were fired upon from the front or the rear. I have heard so many stories about this incident that I don't know what to believe.

I do think it may be Bush's Waterloo. How many more allies can he afford to lose. I guess he really does want to, "...go it alone."

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 12:38 AM

Latest info is that the satellite photographs show the car to have been moving at a high rate of speed ( in excess of 60 miles per hour, NOT less than 30 as the Italian reporter stated.....

But of course, one can't accept any fact without deciding whether it supports your own viewpoint...

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 02:24 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: GUEST,Lielani
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 02:25 AM

God this is all so sad.