BS: What means bigot?

Subject: BS: What means bigot?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 06:55 AM

No, I don't want to start a fight. I'm truly curious about that word since months. The plan to start this thread has been in my mind for long and just has been triggered by another thread.

Communicating in a foreign language is interesting in many respects. Once one surpasses a certain level of fluency one stops looking up unknown words in a dictionary. One gets a feeling of the meaning from the context. It's like a young child seldom asks what a new word means and learns the correct use by listening. That's what I do in English, with rare exceptions.

I have an additional help by the fact that many words of foreign origin are more or less the same in English and German. So when I first encountered the word 'bigot' I did assume it must mean the same as the German 'bigott' (the English word is a noun and the German an adjective).

I very rarely encountered the word 'bigot' (bigoted, bigotry) before Mudcat. That has changed dramatically. The word is used now very frequently (I have stopped counting after I had read that word being used more than 30 times by one single poster in one single thread). In addition to that, the word obviously is used in a quite different sense than our word 'bigott'. And even more, my impression was (and still is) that the use of this word differs between British and American posters.

That was one of the rare moments in recent years I looked into a (British) dictionary. The first meaning (of bigoted) mentioned was 'overly pious' which happens to be exactly the meaning I know for the German word 'bigott'. I have never yet seen the use of 'bigot' in that sense in Mudcat. The second meaning was 'obstinately and intolerantly devoted to one's own church or belief'. Still fitting the German meaning. That was it but these two definitions didn't fit the use of the word 'bigot' by American Mudcatters. Well, it was a British and older dictionary.

So, some weeks ago, I looked up the definition in an American dictionary at the very same time when Bearded Bruce gave what I considered (perhaps wrongly) a completely wrong definition of 'bigot' (I don't recall the thread title). Coincidentally, just after I had read the definition (from memory) 'displaying intolerance and prejudice against people of different faith, race, or political leaning' Nerd explained to Bearded Bruce that a 'bigot' could never be a person speaking disparagingly of someone with another political opinion, but only doing so in relation to other races and faiths.

I got more curious and looked up this word in all dictionaries I could find (close to ten). The definitions are wildly different, more than for other words. Some dictionaries (American) even did not mention the original meaning of 'overly pious' and only had the meaning (roughly) 'speaking/thinking disparagingly of persons belonging to another group'. Which groups were mentioned differed. All dictionaries mentioned persons of another faith, some mentioned race, less often political opinion, once just any identifiable group of persons was mentioned.

The newer the dictionary, the less often 'overly pious' (or a similar meaning) was mentioned at all and the more groups being spoken of disparagingly could make the speaker a bigot. My impression is that in American English this word becomes an insult for any person speaking contemptuously about any group of which he isn't a member. We have two words with a clear but restricted meaning serving this purpose: sexist and racist. So what can one do when looking for a word meaning roughly the same as racist when addressing a person one perceives as speaking with contempt or lack of respect about Hindus, Spanish speaking people, Bush supporters, Karatekas? 'Bigot' seems to be the word of choice in American English (though I have also seen the word 'racist' been used in Mudcat when someone had made a nasty remark about another religion).

British, Irish (they have the beautiful word 'sectarian') and Down under posters use this word rarely.

In German, the use is still very restricted. If I would speak disparagingly about Christians I wouldn't be 'bigott' for I am an atheist and cannot be 'obstinately dovoted to my own church'. If I was a Muslim and did the same just so without relating to my own faith I still wouldn't be 'bigott'. But if I was a Muslim and did the same arguing openly from my faith I would be 'bigott'.

I hope noone gets the impression that I consider one meaning or one definition better than the other. I'm just curious how you use this word and what it means for you.

And I have two specific questions:
(1) To Non-American Mudcatters: Is my impression correct that you rarely use the word and if so in a more restricted meaning?
(2) To American Mudcatters: has the original meaning of 'overly pious' disappreared so completely that it is acceptable that this meaning is not even mentioned in a dictionary?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: greg stephens
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 07:02 AM

Well, speaking for myself (British, semi-English), "overly pious" is nowhere near the meaning the word has now. More like "clinging to a belief excessively" is more how I would feel it is used. Doesnt have to be a religious belief either. And if you use "bigot" abour someone, you are making a very severe criticism. You are not only saying they hold their beliefs too seriously, but that you are suspicious that they are about to do something violent in support of them. Way beyond "overly pious", which would just be a bit over-keen on praying and talking about God.

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 07:13 AM

When I hear the word bigot, I am inclined to think of someone who has little to no tolerance for someone that is of another race, gender or sexual preference than their own. I have never heard it used in a religious context.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: GUEST,Auggie
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 07:24 AM

Webster's Dictionary, which (arguably perhaps) at one time set the standard for American English usage and spelling would agree with what you call the "original" meaning of the word. In common usage in the States, however, bearded bruce and Nerd have come much closer to "bigot's" usual 21st century intent than has Webster.
You might at any time easily substitute "prejudiced bastard" for bigot in my portion of the United States, except of course in polite company, and not have missed a beat.

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 07:29 AM

I'm English and would agree with both the above. A bigot would be one whohas very inflexible views and who is unable to countenance the views of others in any way. There is no particular religious attachment.

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 07:36 AM

In usage it appears to have come to mean someone who holds the opposite view to yourself just as strongly as you hold your own view.Thus it has been devalued. It is also the word you throw at someone when you're losing the arguement and are getting desperate.

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: greg stephens
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 07:44 AM

Certainly, the use of the word "bigot" in an argument tends to say more about the user of the word than it does about the person it's applied to. "Bigot", like "Nazi" and "you f****** c***", tends to be used when the speaker has run out of logical arguments.

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: John Routledge
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 07:51 AM

Or just got exasperated Greg :0)

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: jeffp
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 09:30 AM

Auggie's description of the meaning is pretty much what I have run across. "Overly pious" is a meaning that I had never heard before your post, Wolfgang. I can see where it might have morphed into the other over the years and become a pejorative.

BTW, I am from the Washington, DC area.

jeffp

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: Layah
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 09:50 AM

I'm from California, I never knew that bigot was specifically related to religion at all. On hearing the word I think first of race, pretty much synonymous to racist, but I would accept it being used for religion and gender, and I don't think I've heard it used much for things like political opinions. I certainly wouldn't say you could use it just for someone with an opposing opinion to you, or someone who strongly holds their opinion. A bigot not only strongly holds their own opinion and refuses to listen to other ones, a bigot also feels that people that don't agree (or aren't of the right race, religion, etc) are inferior, stupid, worthless, or something of that sort. Someone who refuses to listen isn't a bigot, only someone who also hates or feels superior to others. It's a pretty strong word.

As for other words, I have often felt the lack of a religion based word such as racist or sexist, and I have personally invented the word religionist, which has totally failed to catch on and I'm the only person who uses it.

And to go off topic a bit, I also feel there is a total lack of two necessary words, singular third person pronoun with no gender, (he or she) so that you don't have to specify. People tend to use they, but since that's plural it doesn't really work. It annoys me. And the other one is a word for a boyfriend or girlfriend. A husband or wife is a spouse, and brother or sister is a sibling, whats a boyfriend or girlfriend? Unlike religionist, there isn't any obvious way of contructing words for those two meanings, and I haven't run across any foreign languages that have them to borrow from.

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: girochaser
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 09:56 AM

Bigot from what I understand is a person who is predudicial towards another on belief of faith.
Bigotry in the west of Scotland is notorious for it when it comes to Celtic and Rangers.
If you suport the supposed Catholc team you are a filthy feinian bastard feinian is reference to Finn McCoull the ancient Irish warrior or if you support the other you are a dirty Orange Bastard orange pertaining to the protestant King Billy who defeted the catholics at the battle of the boyne.

Most people from the west coast are from Irish decent and therefor things from 300 years ago still affect the daily life of thousands of Glaswegians. There for the hatrid and the division is normally there from birth in the region passed down from father to son and daughter.Orange men and Republicans taking their children to their marches.

So in short bigots are people who have an in built hatrid and no tollerance for people who are not of the same veiw as them. If it was about black people it would be classed as racism thats the best I can do for now

Dylan

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: JennyO
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 09:58 AM

I'm from Oz, and what Auggie said sounds pretty much how I would use the word too - and applying to anybody who is a "prejudiced bastard" about any group that is different from his. To be called a bigot in Australia is an insult - no doubt about it. I've never heard it meaning anything like "overly pious".

Jenny

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 10:04 AM

The Bigot's Song

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 10:10 AM

The only current meaning of bigot in America that I'm aware of is that of a person who is thoroughly prejudiced against some other ethnic group or groups. It's about the same as "racist," except that "bigotry" covers religious and national as well as racial hatreds.

Also, a "bigot" *may* not be quite as aggressive or violent a racist. To describe Hitler, for example, as "bigoted" against Jews and others, would be accurate but curiously incomplete. The context means a lot.

If you think of a bigot as covering prejudiced "idiots" as well as prejudiced "bastards" you won't be far wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: EagleWing
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 10:13 AM

I am English and have always associated the word "bigot" primarily with religious groups. "Over Pious" seems too weak, "over zealous" might be more like it. Bigotry, as I have always understood it, is the inability to accept any point of view different from one's own (hence the bigotry of Catholic v Protestant (& vice versa) as seen in NI and parts of Scotland - fortunately not so common in England now as it once was). By extension it can used of any person or persons who refuse to accept that there are other view points than their own whether the subject is religious, political or any other area where feelings run high.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 10:27 AM

Here on mudcat, a 'bigot' is anyone disagrees with your point of view, OR has the slightest tinge of Republicanism about them.

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: GUEST,Mingulay at work
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 11:07 AM

I have always assumed that the word was all encompassing in its meaning as being a person with a strongly held and very narrow point of view. I was surprised to see someone recently mentioned specifically as a "religious bigot", not being aware of the original dictionary meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: Alice
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 11:34 AM

(2) To American Mudcatters: has the original meaning of 'overly pious' disappreared so completely that it is acceptable that this meaning is not even mentioned in a dictionary?

Wolfgang, in my experience in the western US, the word bigot in America came into common use during the Civil Rights movement, when it generally was applied to someone who was prejudiced against African Americans. It has come to mean a person who is fanatically prejudiced against non-whites, non-Christians, ethnic groups. I looked it up in the Webster's New World Thesaurus (1990) next to my keyboard and found "red-neck" as one of the synonyms. Redneck, as defined in the online dictionary is: Offensive Slang 1.Used as a disparaging term for a member of the white rural laboring class, especially in the southern United States. 2.A white person regarded as having a provincial, conservative, often bigoted attitude.

My paperback Webster's New World Dictionary (1988) defines bigot this way:
"One who holds blindly and intolerantly to a particular creed, opinion, etc."

The word bigot was used so much during the Civil Rights movement to describe the resistance to the end of segregation that Americans became used to applying it to people who are racist.

More synonyms in the thesaurus are:
dogmatist
fanatic
opinionated person
partisan
enthusiast
extremist
diehard
crank (see radical)

Alice

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 11:35 AM

As a 60 year old American (Texas and California background), bigot, as applied to religion has always been 'religious bigot'. For all other purposes, plain 'bigot' will usually serve. Except sports. Sports enthusiasts are expected to be more or less bigoted; more so today than earlier. An insult is always implied, even though many don't seem to notice it.

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: Alice
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 11:36 AM

That date on my dictionary should be 1998, not 1988... typo, sorry.

alice

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: John Hardly
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 12:56 PM

Doesn't it imply not just the strongly held view -- but, and more importantly, what that view causes them to conclude about, or how they might act toward others?

Kinda like, there is no bigotry in a void of other opinion because the bigotry only shows towards others.

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 01:00 PM

It's a word you use to denigrate people who disagree with you, Wolfgang... (as has already been pointed out)

Either that or...it's a big spigot.

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 01:00 PM

The Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary has this entry:

Main Entry: big·ot
Pronunciation: 'bi-g&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, hypocrite, bigot
: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices
- big·ot·ed /-g&-t&d/ adjective
- big·ot·ed·ly adverb

---


Alice, I'm not sure if you are correct that "UniteStaters" started using the word 'bigot' more often publicly during [or because of] the African American Civil Rights Movement.

Maybe that negative referent was [also?]used as a result of the demise of the melting pot theory and its replacement with the concept of a multiculturalism in which all races/ethnicities were seen as contributed something of value to the [US]American tapestry..

In other words, maybe it became [publicly] politically incorrect to be 'obstinately or intolerantly devoted to [your] own opinions and prejudices'..when, IMO, during the reign of the melting pot theory, it was alright to look down at those people who retained their 'non-mainstream American' customs, languages, dress etc.

I would agree that {US} Americans usually use 'bigot' in relationship to race and ethnicity, though I have also heard it used in reference to Jewish people [though most who used it that way would probably maintain that "Jewish" is an ethnic group...

I would also like to mention that there is a school of thought among African Americans-and probably other people-that racism is tied to power and because people of color in the United States {as a group] are largely powerless, we can't be racist..

I don't accept this. I believe that people of color can be just as 'bigoted' [and 'racist' which to me is 'bigoted' doubled]as White people..

As African histor & contemporary events show and as the study of skin color consciousness among African Americans and other people of African descent documents, Black people can be VERY bigoted against other Black people...

In other words, in this regard, we [Black people] can be just as insane as White people and all other people irregardless of race or ethnicity..

Ironically, this is another thing that makes the whole world kin..

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: John Hardly
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 01:13 PM

Yeah, intolerant!

That's the difference I'm referring to.

Almost everyone has strongly held views. The difference is that a bigot doesn't tolerate the views of others.

And I still think that "Bigot" also implies prejudice -- the kind that prejudges the individual by perciving that individual only as part of that individual's "group".

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: Charmion
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 01:49 PM

I have the great privilege of the entire Oxford English Dictionary on my computer here at the office. Here's what it has to say about the noun "bigot", which in my part of Canada is merely a very pejorative synonym for "prejudiced person":

[a. F. bigot, of unknown origin: see below.]
   A. n.
   †1. a. A hypocritical professor of religion, a hypocrite. b. A superstitious adherent of religion.
   1598 Speght Chaucer, Bigin, bigot, superstitious hypocrite [1602 adds or hypocriticall woman]. 1653 Urquhart Rabelais i. xl, He is no bigot or hypocrite. 1656 Blount Glossogr., Bigot (Fr.), an hypocrite, or one that seems much more holy then he is, also a scrupulous or Superstitious fellow. 1664 H. More Myst. Iniq. 436 One part of their Church becomes Sotts and Bigots.

   2. A person obstinately and unreasonably wedded to a particular religious creed, opinion, or ritual.
   1661 Cowley Cromwell Wks. II. 655 He was rather a well-meaning and deluding Bigot, than a crafty and malicious Impostor. 1741 Watts Improv. Mind i. Wks. (1813) 14 A dogmatist in religion is not a long way off from a bigot. 1844 Stanley Arnold II. viii. 13 [Dr. Arnold] was almost equally condemned, in London as a bigot, and in Oxford as a latitudinarian.
   b. transf. (Of other than religious opinions.)
   1687 Congreve Old Bach. i. v, Yet is adored by that bigot Sir Joseph Wittol as the image of valour. 1838 Hallam Hist. Lit. i. vii. §14 I. 395 Lord Bacon, certainly no bigot to Aristotle. 1863 Kingsley Water-Bab. vi. 290 The children of Prometheus are+the bigots, and the bores.

   3. Comb., as bigot-maker.
   a1720 Sheffield (Dk. Buckhm.) Wks. (1753) II. 155 The best of all the Bigot-makers that ever I read of.

B. adj. [Often merely attrib. use of n.]

   1623 Ld. Herbert in Ellis Orig. Lett. i. 298 III. 164 The most common censure, even of the bigot party. 1680 Dryden Kind Kpr. Ep. Ded., In a Country more Bigot than ours. 1751 Smollett Per. Pic. lxii, The crazed Tory, the bigot Whig. 1844 Kinglake Eothen xxvii. (1878) 345 Old bigot zeal against Christians.

   [In OF. Bigot appears first in the romance of Girart de Roussillon (12th c.) as the proper name of some people, apparently of the south of Gaul. Hence already in the 17th c. it was suggested by Caseneuve, that it might be an OF. form of Wisigothus, Visigoth; the relations between the Visigoths of Toulouse who were Arians, and the Franks who were Catholics, being such as readily to attach to the name of the former the connotation of 'detestable foreigner' or 'foreign heretic.' But modern Romanic scholars find phonetic difficulties, besides that there is no evidence that the name Wisigothi was preserved in the vulgar tongue. Slender support to some connexion with the Goths is suggested by the med.L. form Bigothi (Du Cange). Whether the Sp. bigote, moustache, is in any way connected, cannot be decided. According to Wace bigoz, bigos was applied opprobriously by the French to the Normans, which shows that the word had then acquired some connotative force; the legend that it originated in the refusal of Hrolf or Rollo to kiss the foot of Charles the Simple, when, in the words of the 12th c. chronicler, 'lingua Anglica (!!!) respondit Ne se, bi got, quod interpretatur Ne per Deum' (No by God!), is absurdly incongruous with facts. The opprobrious sense in Wace was certainly not that of 'superstitious' or 'hypocrite,' as in later F. and Eng.; materials to show how the latter was developed are wanting, but there is evidence to show that the feminine bigote was subsequently applied in opprobrium to the Beguines (see Beguta, Bigutta, in Du Cange): our first quotation identifies bigot with bigin or beguine. In early times the word became a Norman family name as in Roger Bigod earl of Norfolk.]

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 02:04 PM

Just to throw this in.

Why should I tolerate the views of others if I think they are fucked up?

Why, if one is outspoken about this, should they be labeled a bigot?

You can't force someone to tolerate what they consider to be complete bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 02:04 PM

"Bigot", like "Nazi" and "you f****** c***", tends to be used when the speaker has run out of logical arguments.

If the speaker does use this word in this senario - it also could be and is probably more likely to be that - the other person was not worried about having any supporting logical arguments in the first place.

For the expression of blind prejudice does not have any need for logical argument. That is probably the best definition of a bigot...

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 02:18 PM

Wolfgang

Be aware that many persons use common terms "loosely," and often not correctly. Common usage in the US is quite variable, and the term "bigot" is frequently used when "racist" is meant.

Older dictionaries - 1950s perhaps - nearly always gave an etymology indicating a corruption of "by God," and among members of my own earlier generations, the term used was actually as "he's a By-God (person)," usually as a mildly reproachful term applied to persons of a different faith, as in "he's a By-God Lutheran," or "he's a By-God Catholic."

In that earlier usage, the implication was either that the person attempted to "impose" belief on others, or disparaged persons of other faith. According to my recollection, from when I was 10 or 12 years old, the term was often applied to those who "declined contact" with the community at large, with the implication that the "others were unworthy."

The definition given by my Random House CD dictionary reflects the current meaning when the term is used accurately in the sense that literate Americans use it:

"A person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion."

The definition cites the 1590-1600 Medieval French/Old French usage as a derogatory name applied by the French to the Normans, and notes "perh. OE: God, by God"

Note that in current usage, as indicated by this definition, the term can be applied to political or social belief, as well as to religious belief. When applied to other than a religious belief, it is common to apply a "clarifying adjective," as in "a liberal bigot," or "conservative bigot."

The term should not, normally, be applied to one who holds strong beliefs. It is properly used only for those who attempt to force their beliefs on others.

An operative requirement is that the belief that the bigot attempts to impose is a "rote rule," but the rule can come from any "scripture," whether it be a bible, Mein Kampf, the Communist Manifesto, the current party platform, or any other.

In colloquial usage, "Natzi" is almost interchangeable with "bigot" since the Natzi regime used the bigotry of the population so extensively in establishing their power (e.g. Nuremburg 1939 "racial purity," indistinguishable from US "sanctity of marriage" movement ca. 2003 to current).

We have lots of them in Kansas.

John

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 02:22 PM

I am not bigoted against a race of gays. Of couse that race is good for just one generation.

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 02:55 PM

An excellent thread.

I just went to my old family Merriam Webster 2nd ed. dictionary c1954. It had two meanings:
1) based on Old French, a hypocrite, esp. a superstitious one.
2) One who is obstinitelly, irrationally, intolerantly attached to one's church, party, belief, opinon.

I have never heard or used bigot in the sense of 1) a hypocrite. I have seen and heard it used as the noun of the word 'prejudice'. To me a bigot is one who is prejudiced, and growing up in Northeast USA I mainly heard it applied against local people who did not want their children bussed to schools so as to increase racial integration.

There is one more meaning, purely personal.

When I was 13 and came into social studies class one day, there were two anomalies. The first was that there was substitute teacher that day. I dont know about other countries, but in the American schools I've gone to, a substitute teacher is treated as entertainment by the children. We made up stories, changed our names, and claimed that we had no homework due, pretty much anything that would get us out of doing work and make the substitute teacher's life more horrible. (I have been a substitute teacher, so "I've looked at life from both sides now"). Anyhow, the other anomaly was that whoever had sat at my desk in the classroom before me had torn sheets of paper into little itty bitty bits no larger than 2 x 2 mm. They had been profoundly bored or had a need to destroy some profoundly moving bit of student literature. I remember being impressed that such a source of entropy had yet to be utilized (Of course, at that age I had no idea what entropy meant). The kid in front of me, Michael Breen, who had the size and bravado of Jimmy Cagney, saw me staring at this pile of bits and immediately called them 'bigots'. And of course, with his help, by the end of the class, all those neatly piled bigots were pretty much evenly distributed around the desks, clothing, and any other available surfaces. As usual, the substitute teacher was not able to pound any sense into our bony little heads and we were roundly cussed out by our proper teacher the next day.

So I feel like adding to my dictionary:

bigot:
3) Minute homogenous samples, bits, or particles of innocuous paper, dust, or 'stuff'.

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 03:15 PM

No one can stop you from "not tolerating" something, Martin. :-)

But what will happen then? Are there serious consequences?

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 03:30 PM

Probably not, Little Hawk.

Probably not.

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 03:46 PM

Martin Gibson wrote: "Why should I tolerate the views of others if I think they are fucked up?

Why, if one is outspoken about this, should they be labeled a bigot?

You can't force someone to tolerate what they consider to be complete bullshit.

I think you're right Martin. How about if we just refer to you as a jackass?(:<))

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 03:49 PM

You are an an asshole, Catspaw.

You live in a fantsy world.

tolerating you is like tolerating a bad smell, which you probably, in your very tolerant way, are used to.

You are probably a pervert on top of everything else.

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 03:54 PM

Bit touchy today aren't we Martin?

LMAO

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 04:45 PM

Shut-up and sit-down, spaw.

You dished it out first. Now take it.

Go ahead and laugh your smelly ass off.

who cares?

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 05:05 PM

I'd been hoping you two guys would have a meeting of minds for the longest time now...given the fact that you both rate as icons on this forum.

You're so right, Martin. Spaw is a pervert of the first water. He has been known to launch scurrilous attacks on his betters (such as Major Tom and William Shatner) with absolutely no provocation, and he has also attempted to have a clay musical instrument in the shape of a possum enshrined as a fully-fledged member and mascot on this forum. He has made repeated assertions that Neil Young has sex with his electric guitar onstage. I've spoken to Neil about this, and suggested legal action against Spaw, but Neil has taken the high road and decided to just ignore it all. That's because Neil has class. Spaw doesn't. It's that simple.

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 05:07 PM

Great story, Robomatic!

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 05:18 PM

from "WordWeb" a dictionary program I downloaded.

"A prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own"

I have the feeling that 'bigot' is like 'folk'...a word that is just too easy & useful to be restrained to its original uses. I originally heard it as synonomous with 'racially intolerant', but now it is often modified to refer to 'religious bigots' just as often.

A study of its use is partially etymological and partially sociological.

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 05:23 PM

Thanks a lot, folks. I have learned a lot from this thread.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 05:52 PM

Perhaps the meaning of German words are less prone to change so much as words in a language like English - that is shared between so many different cultures and spoken as a first language in so many countries?

There are examples of other words - where an entirely different meaning is added and which gradually replaces the original meaning. Words such as gay.........

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 06:08 PM

Yes..I think you might have a very important point, Shambles....in fact, two points.

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 06:31 PM

So many definitions... To me a bigot is somone who typically has irrational and predjudiced conclusions. eg, Wolfgang, suppose I thought because you are German, you must be a Nazi (something I know full well you are not - quite the opposite in fact) and based my conversation with you on that false belief, I would be a bigot. Faith/religion does come into it in the sense my false beliefs tell me "All Germans are Nazis".

Hope I've expressed that reasonably.

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 06:58 PM

We even have words which come to mean the exact opposite. Where bad now means good - for example!

Recently I remember on that American Idol TV show - one of the judges said to one of the singers: It is not good enough to be cool - you have to be hot, hot, hot - know what I'm saying?

I didn't and I still don't and this is my first and only language!

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 08:36 PM

What Shambles? You don't stay up to date with the latest African American expressions?!

For shame!!

You said that the American Idol judge said that "It is not good enough to be cool - you have to be hot, hot, hot - know what I'm saying?"

Given the context in which these words were spoken, my interpretation would be that the judge was telling the singer to put more of him [or her] self into the interpretation & delivery of the song.. that is more energy; soul; passion..The judge may have been recommending that the singer raise his [and therefore the audiences'] energy level up considerably from cool {mellow} to so hot that he [she]is "cookin" and "smokin" with passion.

Clarence Major's dictionary on African American slang "Juba To Jive" says this about the word "cool" Note: the words in parenthesis are my additions.

"At various times cool has meant roughly the same thing as "bad" [meaning good], or "boss" [meaning good] or 'hip' [meaning good/in the latest fashion] or "together" [good/complete] loosely used, but generally it means anything favorably regarded ; [cool is] a word of agreement, a consent, or affirmation;..

end of quote.

That is one definition of "cool". But Majors continues with a second meaning for this word:

"also, a cool person is one who is detached, aloof. In the forties, "cool" music was fashionable, just as it was fashionable for the listeners-and everybody else to be cool. "Cool was the opposite of "hot".

end of quote

Using the male pronoun as an example, a cool person acts "laid back", he strikes a pose, giving the impression that nothing can faze [bother] him..He draws into himself and becomes [as] cold as ice. He does not get "hot and bothered" [excited] about what is happening [goin down]. His feelings are untouchable..Many African Americans see this persona as the ideal. Indeed in "The Dozens", a traditional verbal game of insult exchange the winnder is the person who 'keeps his cool' [retains the most emotional control] while coming up with creative, ritualized 'digs' {insults}.

And trouble is often averted among African American youth and adults by others telling a person to ignore criticism or challanges [to 'play pass' them]..If someone tries to 'get his goat'[to use a mainstream American saying], a man's friends might tell the challenger to "to cool it" [meaning to stop trying to raise the temperature up; stop trying to start trouble] or they could tell the person being challenged to "cool it" if they see him getting heated [angry] about what has been said.

Rappers sometimes use these commonly known cultural values in selecting their stage names..for example rapper "Coolio".

Actually, for at least 15 years or so, the phrase "cool it" has been replaced by "chill out"; .."chillin" [for example, means relaxing..which is still in the same ball park as being maintaining or outwardly exhibiting low levels of energy].

To return where I began, though I didn't see 'American Idol' {ugh!!},
I would guess that the judge wanted the singer to recognise that sometimes it's cool [acceptable, fashionable] to be hot [more emotionally involved/passionate]in the delivery of a song.

So Shambles, the next time you have a beef with me, and you think I'm getting all 'worked up about nothing', you can tell me to "cool out."

And if I ever tell YOU to "chill out" [or take a "chill pill"]
you'll now have a sense of what I'm saying.

;O)

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 09:30 PM

The Shambles said:

Perhaps the meaning of German words are less prone to change so much as words in a language like English - that is shared between so many different cultures and spoken as a first language in so many countries?

In fact, English is the most plastic, chanbeable language among all known languages. As far as I know, there is no accepted reason. Ask any well educated Spanish, French, German, of Russian speaker if they can make sense of their language's national epics, then go look at Beowulf. Even the Canterbury Tales is much less accessable than if appears to be at first glance.

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: GUEST,informant
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 09:35 PM

Just so you know...

Kansas has a new state slogan: "Kansas! As Big As You Think."

The way it is moving, it will soon be:

"Kansas! As BIG-oted as you think."

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 10:21 PM

When I lived in Kansas, 3 members of board of the John Birch Society lived in Wichita. I remember university professors being threatened anonymously for liberal thinking.

Lots of very nice, reasonable folks I knew also, but you had to be DURNED careful who you said what to!

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 10:40 PM

Oh, I would have just loved that....not!

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 11:36 PM

Most of them are not checking into your thread:
WYSIPYG

LatKaughling

TroopFools

GoyGirl

Bricies' undiclosed "other"

Even Max and Joe if the topic "offends the mainstream" of possible marketable MC
buyers.

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 11:52 PM

G'day Wolfgang,

Being a bit older than JennyO, and perhaps a better index of Australian word usage BT (Before Television), I have to say my original definition of 'bigot' would be in line with the OED / Webster / &c ... that is, 'overly-pious' - but with a strong sense of 'intolerant' of any other faith or religion. Since those days I have seen the 'secularisation' of the word proceed until it is applied freely to any person strongly holding views different from the user.

I suspect the main source of this change would be American, since the television era has exposed us to far more examples American programming than that of British / Australian / European / Asian / Third World origin (approximately the order of frequency of material on our screens).

I try not to use the word at all ... I prefer terms that have some chance of being widely understood ... and I guess I mentally apply some 'nationality filter' when I hear the word - biasing my interpretation according to the background of the speaker.

Regards,

Bob

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: heric
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 12:30 AM

Is it possible that in the U.S. the original meaning expanded/evolved from primary practical application against American WASPS? Purloined, employed and re-deployed by an ever-expanding circle of new ethnicities, religions, and races and other interests until the original meaning was diluted and its and principal target ultimately forgotten? (I dunno.)

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: heric
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 12:58 AM

Maybe it was All in the Family that did it. I'm reasonably serious. Archie Bunker was the bigot of all bigots. The grandaddy. And his targets were a veritable laundry list of religions, ethnicities, races, and political leanings. It all blurred into one thing.

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 03:19 AM

I try my best to keep up with the increasing speed in which the use of words in the English langauge change - but when so many emphatic statements seem to need to end with the question 'you know what I'm saying' I invariably don't..........You ken?

But I am cool........about what's 'goin' down.

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: Gurney
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 04:10 AM

Wolfgang, you write English very well indeed, but if you are trying to define ANY word in English, you are flogging a dead horse. (I can point out three meanings of 'flogging' and five meanings of 'horse'. See Wordweb below.)
The language is in a constant state of transition, and any defination that you find will be of date when someone uses a word that they invent or adapt to a concept for which they have no referent. The 'new' usage is immediately adopted by the media and given legitimacy by usage, and also because the term is sometimes more obvious than the original word for that concept was.
I was watching a US cop show on TV the other night, and a suspect there was talking 'hip-hop'. Even the cops interviewing him didn't fully understand him, and as an English-English speaker, I understood perhaps one word in four. It was English, Horatio, but not as we know it.
Could I suggest that you download a free dictionary called Wordweb, which sits on your toolbar for instant reference. In my opinion it is things like this that makes the web worth having.

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 04:28 AM

http://wordweb.info/free/

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 08:43 AM

I'm still thinking about Shambles' idea that German words may change meaning more slowly. I don't know of any data here but it could be. Perhaps the size (and/or the distribution) of the population speaking one language is the causal factor here.

But when I think about it so many words come in my head that have changed the meaning during my lifetime or that have come into our language borrowed mostly from English: Einchecken for instance (check in) is now treated as a normal German verb: Hast du schon eingecheckt?

BTW, we even invent new words that pretend coming from English but actually don't really, at least not with that meaning. That is particularly funny if Germans use such "English" words and are surprised that htey are not understood when speaking English. One example is our new noun "das Handy" (pronounced the English way). I let you guess what we mean when saying that.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 09:05 AM

The Shambles,

I'll give you mad props* for your 10 Mar 05 - 03:19 AM post.

That means, I'm giving you a great compliment for the spirit & content of your response to my post, you dig? **

mad-an intensiver
props-a hip hop word from 'proper'[meaning proper respect and/or acknowledgement given to someone or something, including those that may have been 'iged'-ignored or 'dissed'-disrespected; 'iged' is a much older word than the others]

Of course, a much more updated version of "You dig?" is
"You feel me"?

But I didn't wanna 'go there' as my intent might be misinterpreted.

;o)

****

Sorry for the thread drift, but I couldn't help it..

Now [as Ed Sullivan used to say] on with the show!

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: GUEST,wondering
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 10:50 AM

I also wonder if part of the problem with a rapidly changing meaning of words (at least in American English) might be because of the political spin doctors that can make a tragic situation sound totally reasonable and admirable. And of course they can do the opposite, too.

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: Peace
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 11:19 AM

Twain remarks on it very nicely:

"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness."

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 11:29 AM

Even arm chair travel like we are doing at Mudcat-meeting new people and exchanging cultural information and opinions-helps to counteract the "prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness" that is so pervasive in our societies.

Another good reason to continuing visiting Mudcat!

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: Once Famous
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 04:21 PM

Much bigotry is based on sterotypes.

Many stereotypes I would think are based on a certain, but not all inclusive, amount of fact.

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: Gurney
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 09:25 PM

'Das handy', I would expect, would mean 'The handyman', or possibly 'the useful (something)', but I would be interested to know what it really means.

As words come into common and erroneous usage, I've sometimes tried to stem the flow by pointing out the error. A verbally agressive woman once accused me of being a Chauvinist, and when I pointed out that, being of English birth, I couldn't possibly be, and I was not even a Jingoist, she gave me a disgusted look and walked away.
I see that even the modern dictionaries do not classify Chauvinism as rabid French nationalism (as they used to do), nor do they classify Jingoism as the equivalent English nationalism. The two words are now usually synonyms.
Mind you, it worked well for getting rid of her.

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 12:26 AM

Not much to add as far as all of the wonderful expositions above. I may have a prejudice against sheepherders of the old West. I would be a bigot if I actively recruited others to feel the same way and to make overt moves to further my views, even to the point of violence.

In another way, bigot to me means hypocritical. I would use it to describe someone who seems tolerant, but in reality is very intolerant.

I was curious to see what my grandfather's five volume dictionary set, circa 1896, had to say. Imagine my surprise when I found it didn't have it listed at all!

Warning thread drift: LH, you said, in reference to M. Gibson and Spaw "...you both rate as icons on this forum." Think again, surrah! Spaw's got mileage, class, eloquence, heart, experience, and cleans up the kitty litter quite well. It takes a lot more that what MG has done here to even come close to being any kind of "icon" like Spaw and a handful of others I could name on this forum, IMO!

kat

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 07:27 AM

I think the use of the word 'icon' in this context is another fairly recent departure. For an 'icon' is a sacred painting or mosaic etc (usually a rather dark image).

Iconoclast: person who assails cherished beliefs: breaker of images.

Perhaps the word 'iconoclast' is nearer to what some of us mean when we use the word 'icon'? Or in a forum setting - perhaps 'pain in the arse' is a better phrase?


As for all this 'know what I am saying here' stuff - the Scots just use the one word 'ken'. This word is very versatile as it acts as both a statement and a question. It is also a lot shorter........ken?

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 07:35 AM

Wolfgang could you enlighten us on Combat 18, no offence, I am just being curious.

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: freda underhill
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 08:13 AM

The pocket Macquarie dictionary (the one used in Australia) defines bigot as:

person unreasonably convinced of rightness of a particular opinion, practise etc.

good thread, Wolfgang!

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 08:38 AM

Das Handy is in the English speaking world called cellphone or mobile.

Ard Mhacha, what is combat 18? I haven't the slightest idea. I'm the one in need of enlightenment.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 08:59 AM

Wolfgang:

You may have already seen this: I first saw it while walking through an operating radio broadcast station. In some form or other it has been around in the US for at least thirty years, but it wouldn't surprise me if it were twice that old or more:

"ACHTUNG!!! Das machine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und corkenpoppen mit spitzensparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken by das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets.
"Relaxen und vatch das blinkenlights!!!

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: Gurney
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 02:57 PM

Thanks, Wolfgang. I was just dropping off to sleep when I had a terrible suspicion that Das Handy was an unromantic German way of describing lovemaking, specifically with Widow Thumb and her four daughters. Shame on me.

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: Biskit
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 04:58 PM

The first time I ever heard Bigot used in a sentnce was when; Meathead (michel) called Archie Bunker one,..when in truth they were equally biggoted (sp)Meathead and Gloria were just as intolerant and set in their ways as was Archie. While Edith,(Archie's wife),was the only one of the group willing to listen to both sides of an argument and try to come to a rational decision. Ironically Edith was usually cast as the loveable idiot. Something I never agreed with, Edith was thoughtful, tolerant, and loving, and while she had definte opinions,she wieghed carefully the effect her opinion would have on a fellow human being,and then determined whether or not to share them.
And that, Wolfgang, I believe, was when the meaning of Bigot changed from "overly pious" as we learned in school, to the rather distorted catch-all phrase for anyone that doesn't agree with the name caller.
Peace!(Through Understanding)
~Biskit~

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 05:12 PM

robomatic, thanks. I might have read that before but even if yes it is still very good for a laugh. It is made up (too good to be true), but all too often we read similar sentences in manuals. The best advice for manuals from the far East is to read the English version. One word they never get right is the word 'power' (when speaking about electricity). They invariably use 'Kraft'(strength or force): "One, make safe you have put on with the force."

BTW, why is a Handy called a Handy? (You have to know Suebian German to get it). The first time a Suebian saw a Handy he said: "Hen di koi Schnur?"

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 03:16 AM

The word 'fanny' has come to mean different parts of the body on different sides of the Atlantic. I wonder what part of the body would a English speaking German think that this word applied to?

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 06:11 AM

As a good reader of Mudcat I now know (but I wouldn't have had the slightest idea in my before Mudcat times):

English to English dictionary

I only tend to forget which meaning is American and which is European.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: Troll
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 01:38 AM

A bigot is any conservative who is winning an argument with a liberal.

troll*******snort! chuckle*******

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: Jimmy C
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 11:12 PM

bigot
   noun

Definition:   persecutor

Synonyms:   bug, crank, diehard, doctrinaire, dogmatist, enthusiast, extremist, fanatic, fideist, fiend, flag-waver, freak, jingoist, maniac, monomaniac, mule, no-neck, nut, opinionated person, partisan, persecutor, pig, puritan, racist, red-neck, relisher, sectarian, segregationist, sexist person, stickler, superpatriot, zealot