BS: What do you call those blue trousers?

Subject: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: artbrooks
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 09:14 AM

In the interests of trans-Atlantic and intergalactic communications, not to mention regional dialect differences, just how do you refer to those blue cotton trousers? Are they jeans (my own favorite)? Or are they denims? Or do you use the name of a specific brand to refer to the entire species, as in "look at the girl in the tight Levis"?

Please feel free to expand the discussion to whether they are called 'pants' (the word usually used in the US), or whether that word specifically refers to the garment worn underneath 'trousers'.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 09:24 AM

Well I used denims when I posted my thread about high heels, but it's not the word I normally use, I just say jeans. However jeans now come in all materials and the name has become generic for a cut or style rather than the material they're made of, like cord jeans, sailcloth jeans etc.
So I used the name of the cloth from which they were originally made; denim, which I believe started out as cloth de Nimes, named for the town in France where it originated.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 09:29 AM

Jeans {in every place in the USA I've lived]

For a minute there, Michael Jackson was responsible for a style where you could wear your jeans or other pants slightly too short so yur socks could show [or no socks as the case might be]. But for some time now-among fashion conscious children, youth, young adults {and others?] wearing jeans or other pants that are too short is a real no no. Among African Americans anyway when the jeans and other pants are slightly too short they are called "high waters". This is a term of derision.

****

Who remembers 'peddle pushers'? [pants about 3/4 length]
Now if you asked a sales clerk for "peddle pushers", she'd look at you like you spoke a foreign language. Those pants are now called "capris" {or at least they were called that last season in the USA}.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: pdq
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 09:55 AM

How do you tell the sex of a chromosome?

Pull down it's genes!

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: GUEST,Metchosin
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 09:56 AM

Back in the days when we used to call 3/4 length pants, "peddle pushers", we called too short pants that males wore, "floods".

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 10:02 AM

What about those baggy shorts that some men wear these days? I don't have a name for these shorts, but I do have a name for the people who wear them, none of whom they ever suit, these people are called; Fashion Victims. ¦¬]
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 10:27 AM

I wore those baggy shorts, called cargos here when I hiked the west coast trail, all those extra zipped pockets came in handy, but I guess I could have been seen as a fashion victim, because I wore them over a pair of long johns. Fortunately there weren't many observers.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 10:43 AM

Guest 10:27AM was me.

Metchosin

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 10:48 AM

dungarees, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: Allan C.
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 12:08 PM

Dungarees always sounded like s__t slinging contests or some such.
I'll just keep calling them jeans when I need to be specific or just pants when referring to them in general. After all, those are just about the only kind of pants I ever wear.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 12:34 PM

Dungarees are PhDs in composting.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 01:41 PM

I did a quick search to see if I could find the name that those baggy (non-cargo) shorts were called that the kids were all wearing when my kids were in elementary school. Back when the girls had to stop wearing shorts any shorter than 2 inches above their knees.

I didn't find the name, but I found a pseudo-intellectual article about pants and culture that I skimmed through out of curiousity to see where it was going. Follow through with this if you're curious, but it's off topic as far as what you call those blue denim pants you wear.

BAGGY-PANTS THUGGERY & HIP-HOP BURLESQUE:
CLOTHING AS SEXUAL POLITICS IN AMERICA

By Kevin Esser
Do gay guys wear tight pants so other guys can check out their butts?

It meandered, has few citations, never really stated sound conclusions, and offered lots of opinion that is posed as if it is scholarship (but it raises the hackles of someone who has been writing scholarly papers for many years now) and at the bottom I found a link to the "library" of articles for this group:

Ipce is a forum for people who are engaged in scholarly discussion about the understanding and emancipation of mutual relationships between children or adolescents and adults.

In this context, these relationships are intended to be viewed from an unbiased, non-judgmental perspective and in relation to the human rights of both the young and adult partners.

Ipce meets once every one or two years in a different country, publishes a newsletter and a web site, co-ordinates the (electronic) exchange of texts and keeps an archive of specific written publications.

The unstated but in-your-face subject here is sex between the young and adults, because in any other context there is no need for an "non-judgemental perspective" in such relationships. I can't find anyplace that spells out what "IPCE" is (or what it's acroynm means).

The article, that purports to be about the sexual politics of pants, is careless yet very calculated in its periodic conclusions and associations, and what is particularly creepy is the realization that it's a public face pedophiles are apparently placing on their activities in hope of acceptance. The word choices tell me that this writer is trying to coax public acceptance of this "scholarship" while using loaded terms and imagery all of the way through. I haven't explored the site extensively--if someone else cares to and wants to refute these brief conclusions, that's fine with me. But for the time being, yuck. . .

Who knew about those dungarees (as my ex from the east coast used to call them)? Careful how you shield your body from view in those baggy pants ("blue jeans" works for me)! (ha!)

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 01:43 PM

The emphasis in that block quote in the last post was mine.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: Layah
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 02:09 PM

I definately call them jeans. Since I got to the UK I've been attempting to remember trousers instead of pants, because you get such funny looks when you start talking about your pants. Or other people's pants. I've also heard pants that are too short called high waters.

The style now is to have your pants as long as you possibly can without ruining them by walking on them. To this end a guy was showing me how he had attached snaps to the backs of his shoes and the bottoms of his jeans and he could snap them together so that they exactly brushed the floor without actually getting stepped on. I also saw someone who had a new pair of jeans that pre came with the cuffs worn out like they'd been dragging on the ground. Like buying jeans with holes in them. My cuffs always get worn out but that's just because I'm short and too lazy to hem them usually.

As for capris and pedal pushers, I think when a style comes around again it often gets a new name. A few years ago the style was for jeans called flares, which looked the same as what used to be called bell bottoms. I heard people calling them bell bottoms, but the companies always referred to them as flares.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 02:18 PM

I calls 'em jeans. "Dungarees" has a somewhat pejorative connotation. It's what your grandmother, who has never owned a pair and is oblivious to the fact that everbody wears the things, calls them. Her meaning is quite explicit: Dungarees are what the field hands wear. You are supposed to dress properly!

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 02:41 PM

Dungarees are jeans with a bib and braces aren't they?

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 02:45 PM

I've always heard those called "overalls" or "coveralls".

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 03:33 PM

Kilts. I call 'em kilts. Like in, "Ol' Sam got caught with Big Joe's wife and Big Joe kilt him."

Britches. We called them britches.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: MBSLynne
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 03:41 PM

Azizi, pedal pushers have been back in fashion here (UK) for a couple of years under the same name.

Britches...is that the same as breeches? But breeches are knee length trousers worn by Morris Men, among others...

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 05:13 PM

Throughout my childhood (New Jersey, 1950s), they were dungarees. I don't recall any perjorative connotation, and there certainly were no field hands in our urban community. Also, the term was applied to regular from-the-waist-down-only trousers. Denim trousers with above-the-waist straps and bibs were and are "overalls."

I gradually switched to the usage "blue-jeans" or "jeans" during the 60s. I never used the brand-name "Levis," and in fact have rarely bought that brand. Lees, Wranglers, and various store brands all seem to fit better on my no-ass frame.

As you probably knew before you asked, in the US, the term "pants" is used interchangeably both for underwear and for outer trousers. Pant-TIES are undergarments (women's), and the terms "drawers," "skivvies," "undies," and the brand-name "BVDs" also apply to underpants, of either gender.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 05:23 PM

Lynne,
I'm glad that the UK doesn't follow the United State's lead in ALL things. [Okay I'll duck after that comment]..

But wait, I've got another example..

Remember the once popular hip-hop performer MC Hammer? What about those REAL baggy pants he wore?? I haven't a clue what they were called. I always just called them "MC Hammer pants". They looked kinda harem style. And for sure, they weren't made out of denim..

Thank goodness that style didn't catch on.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 05:29 PM

I reckon in France they call them pantelon de Nimes Bloody French, anybody would think they invented the fabric.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: Mingulay
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 05:34 PM

Always known them as jeans if made from denim. Although originally made as working trousers I find them too cold in winter and too warm in summer, give me cords any time. Also you will never find a serious hiker/climber wearing them as they're useless when wet.

On the subject of trouser legs being too short, where I come from if we saw someone affecting this style we used to reckon that his cat had just died as he was wearing his trousers at 'half mast'.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 06:22 PM

We used to suggest they put jam on their shoes, and invite their trousers down for tea.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 06:50 PM

Weren't the half mast trousers once called 'culottes'?

Seems they are now those square cut knickers that don't go past your arsecheeks....

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: John Hardly
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 06:57 PM

overalls (or "overhauls" if your neck is REALLY red) = bib and suspenders built in.

coveralls = cartharts -- unibody construction, jacket and trousers in one, canvas, duck cloth.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 07:00 PM

Cullottes were those knee length trousers that looked like a skirt? For the office clerk who cycles.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 10:40 AM

1. Denims, jeans, and dungarees are all words that refer to the cloth used.
   My thanks to whoever started this for making me look it up.

2. The term 'high water' has been aroung a long time. 'Flood' comments were
   often heard in the 50's. Probably earlier, too.

3. Dungarees is (was?) the official Navy term for work pants.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 11:13 AM

Jeans are awful when wet and it's cold. They do provide a nice windblock, at least in the heavy weights, but they would never be my first choice for serious outdoor stuff like climbing. For the hills around here they'd be okay during nice weather, but that's about it. During the winter I'd want something like an Alaskan Tuxedo.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 11:52 AM

I had to look it up, and I found this definition of an Alaskan Tuxedo.
Rubber Boots, Woollen Hat, and a Woollen Shirt. It doesn't even mention trousers/pants/jeans/kecks/strides/Levis, whatever. Are they included Rapaire?
Giok ¦¬]

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 12:08 PM

Nope. But the outfit (which includes woolen socks) is warm in the wet and warm in the dry and rugged enough to withstand a lot of punishment. They are traditionally sold by Filson's. And while there are other colors, dark green is traditional. Although I'd use modern hiking boots or Mickey Mouse boots, depending upon the cold.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 01:08 PM

So that's what Mackinaw is, never ran into it till I heard the Frozen Logger song.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: open mike
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 01:39 PM

i thouhgt that Levi Strauss first made these pants from cloth taken from sails on boats. and i also thaought that the name was because they werre dyed blue with Molybdenum. The Molybdenum (Mo) part may be off but here:

http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/bllevi.htm

http://www.levistrauss.com/

some history here: http://www.levistrauss.com/about/history/denim.htm

http://www.levi.com/

he was included in a documentary about the West on PBS
http://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/people/s_z/strauss.htm

what do you find on this page? for me it is just all blue'
it was supposed ot be the denim survival guide. http://olah.com/

and whne summer would come we would always cut the legs off of our
jeans and turn them into shorts---"cut-offs" with ravelled fringe..

http://www.wrangler.com/

http://www.leejeans.com/

http://www.leedungarees.com/

Bib Overalls are usually associated with farmers...
the kids these days often wear them with one strap
un-hooked.

My favorite type of pants though are the ones you can
convert to short by zippin off the legs..but they rarely
come in denim or cotton ususally synthetic fabrics
that dry quickly..good for travelling or hiking.

http://www.rei.com/category/4501798.htm
http://www.rei.com/category/4501397.htm
http://www.cil.com/cl-convpants.htm

or here is the extreme...a fantasy...
http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/Zip-off_20Pants

where do clam diggers fit in? (length - wise)

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 01:42 PM

The history of "denims," the name originally given to "those blue pants," is pretty well documented as being the invention of Levi Strauss during the 1860s California gold rush era.

It's not too clear whether Levi got to California looking for gold, or whether he actually went with the intention of being a "commercial supplier," but the essential features of the trousers he made and sold were that they were made from the "French cloth," hence the "denims" name, that they were stitched together with heavy "sailmakers" thread, and key stress points were reinforced with metal rivets. Levi also probably used a "French seam" in the original products as well, with the edges "turned together" so that all the stitches went through four layers of cloth instead of the simpler "just two."

The characteristic "metal buttons," with an integral shank to make them work better with the heavy cloth, appeared very early, but I haven't found when. They may have been in Levi's earliest products, or not.

Although the Strauss company history cites their exceptional "durability and toughness" that probably isn't really what made them popular. The common competing products were often made from sailcloth that was principally hemp fabric and could give you rope burns on your b... when you moved around. The real Strauss "edge" was that you could get a little comfort with durability very similar to the sailcloth.

The rivets on the pockets provided a "marker" still noted by people who collect old furniture when dating stuff. Especially for old schoolhouse desks and such, absence of "rivet scratches" is a pretty sure indication that it's very recent. The "standard grade" bluejeans from Sears and Mongomery Ward in my area didn't lose the rivets until early in the 1950s.

The bib front versions were called "overalls" or commonly just "bibs." They were a common "alternative style" worn on the farm mainly during threshing and other "hay handling" since the straps over the shoulders allowed you to "wear them loose" and you could shake the chaff out before it got too deeply embedded. In the late 1940s and into the early 50s, "bibs" made from a cotton-twill ticking cloth, typically white/grey stripes, were a little more popular in local farm country than the traditional blue denim. The twill was a little lighter weight cloth, and had slightly more "stretch." You could get a matching cap from the same material at the local Co-op.

The "coveralls" term, in my area, was reserved for the "full dress" outfit with long sleeves, long pants, etc all in one piece. This type was almost never seen in "farm country" but remains popular with auto mechanics where the key requirement is to cover anything that might scratch the customer's paint job. Surprisingly perhaps, coveralls are almost never seen on aircraft assembly lines, but are common on flight lines and in "delivery shops." Quite a few "in-home" services such as plumbers etc. use them as a uniform, probably as much for the consistent appearance as for functionality.

I can't comment much on newer terms, since I'm still wearing bluejeans that I bought in the 1960s. (I checked. No rivets, or I might suspect some of being older.)

John

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 01:47 PM

Clam digging dress is highly dependent on weather. As a kid I think we typically were in swim suits. But that was summer. What would you wear on a cold wet beach in the winter? I don't think clam digging dress is dictated.

I agree about the climbing and jeans--they're absolutely the wrong pants for the job. Wool pants in cold weather, or one of the man-made fibres that keep you warm even when you're wet. Even in warmer weather, jeans are still problematic.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 02:19 PM

SRS -

For cold and wet, I'm told that you can't beat a "wet suit" (as in SCUBA). I can attest that you do see that attire on Seattle area beaches when it's chilly, and the assumption would be that it's goeyducks they're looking for.

If you want more "conventional" attire, I'd suggest looking for recommendations from the numerous mountaineering club sites, or just check with one of the suppliers like REI. Silk "longies" under lycra or spandex seem to be popular choices.

My high school track coach recommended panty hose for warmth that won't inhibit free motion, so don't overlook them for a "cheap" possibility. I can attest that in 10F weather they provide significant warmth, but after the first couple of miles they DO NOT GET ALONG WITH HAIRY LEGS!

John

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: open mike
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 03:01 PM

this from teh International Molybdenum association:
Pigments

Molybdates are used for two properties, stable colour formation and corrosion inhibition. Molybdenum oranges are light and heat stable pigments, from bright red-orange to red-yellow in colour, which are used in paints and inks, plastic and rubber products, and ceramics. Molybdo-phosphoric acid is used to precipitate the dyes Methyl Violet and Victoria Blue. White corrosion inhibiting pigments are used as paint primers.

actually my recollelction about molybdenum being used as a dye was
correct.but possibly the color is on the oppposite site of the color
wheel..orange..unless "precipitating" violet and blue counts?

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 04:22 PM

Wool will keep you warm and dry even when you're cold and wet.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: Layah
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 07:16 PM

My jeans have rivets. I bought them a few months ago. Sure it was from a charity shop, but there's no way they're very old. Two pairs of different jeans and both have rivets. I know I've also had jeans without rivets, so they must coexist.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 07:55 PM

John, that's geoducks. And yes, wet suits are entirely appropriate in Seattle at the beach in cold weather. I was a fair weather clam digger.

Keep clam! as Ivar used to say.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: GUEST,Auggie
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 08:12 PM

What do you call those blue trousers?

In the dialect of my section of the (still too damn cold) Midwest, they are universally recognized as Blue Jeans.

John in Kansas wouldn't find those tell-tale rivet marks in our vintage school furniture, however, because blue jeans (along with farmer bibs) were specifically banned by the dress code, as were any clothing items with studs or other fasteners which could mar furniture, including blue jean and leather motorcycle jackets. This ban was rigidly enforced in both the public and parochial schools in our city, at least through the late 1960's and early 70's.

And Capri pants. Oh man, I remember my mother being scandalized by the fact that Mary Tyler Moore of the old Dick Van Dyke Show was allowed to wear such tight, form-fitting clothing on national television. It was, in Mom's eyes, too casual and too suggestive. Needless to say, these days Mom isn't a big fan of MTV.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 08:19 PM

Yeah, SRS; I was trying to be cute with the "phonetic" spelling.

Layah -

The rivets are probably still available without searching too hard, but most of the larger mass-market stores pretty much quit carrying them openly in my area quite a while back. In the later 50s and into the 60s, Sears, Wards, sometimes J.C. Penneys, would sort of "hide them" back in a remote corner, called the "slob section" (or officially, "workmen's clothing"). With the improved(?) threads, and machine stitching, if the seams are properly "ended" it's questionable whether the rivets actually contribute much, and there's no question they could be really hard on the furniture. Unless you're going for a "nostalgia" look, the "fashion jeans" usually leave them off.

Fashions do change, and I can still recall a conversation I overheard where several "old hands" were giving one of the "youngsters" a bit of ribbing about his "new fangled fancy pants" because they had ... hold on... ... a zipper in them. The concensus appeared to be that they'd need a new name for them, 'cause "that ain't proper in a pair o' blue jeans."

John

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 01:28 AM

In my high school in Texas, all the above terms were used - jeans, levis, denims; everything but dungarees and, of course, overalls.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 04:25 AM

I have white cotton Levi shirt with a rivet in the breast pocket, 'holding' the designer label on. It really buggers up the iron by scratching the ironing plate if I forget which shirt I'm doing.

All Levi's will have one rivet in them somewhere, usually on the back pocket. It's their design label, like the Steiff bear 'knopf in' meaning a 'knob' or rivet in the ear. It's how you can tell they're the genuine article.

It was a while before they took the rivet out of the crotch though.... to the delight of all those who rode bicycles or sat round campfires with their legs open.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 10:20 AM

Over here in Yorkshire anything trouser-related can be referred to as 'kecks' or 'kegs'. Use that term to amuse your friends and confuse your enemies.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 01:28 PM

A little "curiosity browsing" – which as usual didn't find an answer to the original question – reveals that the original name, used by Levi Strauss, was "waist overalls."

From the "home" Levi Strauss page (http://www.levistrauss.com/), there's a link to the Levi Strauss Vision that may merit a look. Links to "brand pages" from the home page are all "adspeak" with no significant info. From this page, the links are more "conventional," even if still vague on the details.

This is the first place I've seen recognition of the "partner," Jacob Davis, who apparently is the one who actually "invented" Levis:

"Jacob was the tailor who in the 1870s first fashioned heavy cotton cloth, thread and metal rivets into sturdy "waist overalls" for miners seeking durable work pants. Levi in turn met Jacob's needs for patenting and mass production of the product, … "

A quick search of other "Levi Strauss" pages (hits from Google) showed no other mention of Davis.

Subsequent search for Jacob Davis turns up Inventor of the Week, which adds a little to the story, identifies Davis as the originator of the "Levis" design, but still calls Strauss the "inventor."

"In 1872, Levi received a letter from Jacob Davis, a Nevada tailor. Davis was one of Levi Strauss' regular customers; he purchased bolts of cloth from the company to use for his own business. In his letter, Davis told about the interesting way he made pants for his customers: he placed metal rivets at the points of strain-pocket corners and the base of the fly. He didn't have the money to patent his process so he suggested that Levi pay for the paperwork and that they take out the patent together. The patent was granted on May 20, 1873, and the first blue jeans were born."

(It doesn't say whether the name "Davis" appears on the patent.)

"Jeans," and more specifically "Levis" are frequently cited as the "quintessentially American product." However:

LEVI STRAUSS & CO. TO CLOSE ITS NORTH AMERICAN MANUFACTURING & FINISHING PLANTS September 25, 2003.

At the time when the above announcement appeared, local news reported that this was the "last remaining manufacturer of blue jeans on the North American continent." I'm not sure that claim is completely accurate, but the "possibly remaining" makers are not names one would recognize. It may be assumed with reasonable certainty that "American Blue Jeans" in your current market are not made in America.

And one might question how their impressive "Vision Statement" squares with the "typical" appeal from the Clean Clothes Campaign. In fairness here, I mean "typical of brands who've sought "cheap foreign labor." The problem cited is not directly with Levi Strauss, but with one of their independent contractors. Levi Strauss appears to have acknowledged this particular problem, and may (or not) have plans to deal with it.

Still, they said:

"In 1991, we were the first multinational company to develop a comprehensive code of conduct to ensure that individuals making our products anywhere in the world would do so in safe and healthy working conditions and be treated with dignity and respect."

And I still don't know whether it's official Levi Strauss policy that all ®Levis have a rivet. I suspect that it is, since the rivets appear to have been one of the "patented" features; but it's impossible to tell from "official company sites" that I found whether any ®Levis, other the "®Levi Signature Brand" ones have any rivets.

John

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: Scoville
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 07:44 PM

Jeans. Occasionally, we (myself and those of my acquaintance) call them by brand name (Levis, Wranglers, etc.) but usually only when referring to Western-style jeans, since no self-respecting kicker would be caught dead in "fashion jeans" made of flimsy material. I've never actually heard "denims" although I've seen it in print, and I've only ever heard grandparents use "dungarees".

Overalls are jeans with a bib and straps.

Coveralls are the things auto mechanics wear that cover . . . well, all. They zip up the front and have sleeves. (I've occasionally heard overalls called "coveralls" but that's never what I think of when I hear the term.)

Yeah, coulottes are the knee-length split skirts. My brother wore jammers in the Eighties, which were basically Bermudas in garish prints.

I once had pedal-pushers, too (in the Eighties). Mine were straighter-legged than the capris that are in now but they were pretty much the same thing.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 07:53 PM

Has anyone mentioned 'britches'.

I've only seen that word used in books about olden days.
Nowadays nobody actually uses this word for pants. At least, I don't think so.

Besides it sounds too much like another word.
If you use it out loud, somebody might think you callin them a 'ho.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 05:29 AM

My mother used britches to mean knickers.

Britches or breeches are the short, knee length trousers that were worn hundreds of years ago.

Both male and female children wore long hair and dresses until about 3-5 years old. Then the boys were 'breeched', put into short trousers and had their hair cut. The clothes were just a miniature version of what their parents wore. This habit lasted well into the 19th Century, and possibly into the beginning of the 20th.

In Britain, overalls are often a sort of house coat made of a lightweight, washable material. They were worn to prevent the better fabric of the dress from being damaged during house work or other chores. They usually fasten down the front, or sometimes have ties that pass through the front, tying at the back, giving a double breasted front. They are usually in garish colours and vile patterns.

Housecoats in the US seem to be what we would call dressing gowns or bedjackets. Apparently it is illegal in California for a woman to drive whilst wearing a housecoat.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 07:29 AM

Liz, you said:
"Britches or breeches are the short, knee length trousers that were worn hundreds of years ago."

I always thought that 'britches' was an older name for long pants..

and then you said:
"Housecoats in the US seem to be what we would call dressing gowns or bedjackets"

I have always used the word "robes" for the down to the ankles or knee length garment that females or males wear over pajamas or to cover themselves after taking a shower etc.

???

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: artbrooks
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 08:45 AM

Liz, in California it is illegal to use the word whilst!

Breeches generally, I think, end just below the knee. They are still worn by some bicyclists and cross-country skiers, to keep their knees warm. This garment was also, of course, the item of clothing associated with the aristocracy that the French sans-coulottes objected to during the Revolution.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: ranger1
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 08:47 AM

I always called them jeans. My step-mom, who kept me supplied (much to my father's horror), called them dungarees.

I do hike in them in the spring, summer and fall, as I am allergic to virtually every man-made fiber out there. Taking along a change of clothes in a plastic bag and making sure I always have my rain gear is much preferable to the nasty, oozing red rash that polypropelene and polar fleece cause. In winter, I wear wool.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 09:25 AM

Then there is BREEKS , and for the golfers amongst you there's always plus-fours, or shit catchers as we called them when I was a kid.

Giok ¦¬]

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: Layah
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 09:40 AM

Are those breeks actually made out of moleskin, as in the skin of moles? I once bought this stuff that was called moleskin but it wasn't made out of mole's skin, it was kind of felty stuff that was sticky on one side and you stuck it on you to protect from blisters.

You would call it a dressing gown or a bed jacket, I think you must be talking about what I would call a bathrobe, and who calls it a housecoat?

And on the topic of britches, I think you were supposed to wear them just above the knee, because I heard it in a movie. And you know how those things are always accurate. In the musical The Music Man while listing a bunch of bad things children might be doing, he says "When your son leaves the house, does he rebuckle his knickerbockers BELOW the knee?" And I assume knickerbockers is the same thing as britches. And that movie is based around 1930s, plus or minus 20 years.

I also read a book based in a similar time period where getting to wear long pants was a sign of growing up. Little boys all wore pants that went down to the knee, and at some point you were grown up and you got to wear long pants. I've noticed that a lot of school uniforms very little boys wear shorts while older ones wear long pants, and I've been wondering if that is a remnant of that tradition.

And speaking of boys and girls wearing dresses and long hair, there is this picture of my grandfather when he was really little, and he's just adorable in a frilly dress with curly ringlet hair. It's hard enough to tell the gender of children at that age as it is!

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 10:37 AM

Moleskin in this instance is a short nap medium weight velvet cloth, and is usually cotton.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: Metchosin
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 12:24 PM

Azzizi, the word our grandmother always used for a housecoat was the Japanese word "kimono", her term for any bathrobe without buttons or zipper that was tied with a sash at the waist. When we were small, we thought a bath robe was a "mykamona", because of our grandmother's often repeated question, "Where's my kimono?". I still use the words kimono, bathrobe and housecoat, interchangeably, but probably housecoat more often.

And blue denim trousers are refered to as jeans or blue jeans on the west coast of Canada, although I have heard the brand name, levi's used more recently as a generic term.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 02:59 PM

A "real" moleskin from a mole is incredibly soft, but it would take very many of the little critters to piece together much of anything useful from their fur. I've seen a very few small "coin purses" or other small pouchlike accessories in museums, but they're apparently quite rare.

The commercial "moleskin" is a cloth, napped to make it have a nice soft feel, and in recent times is found mostly with an adhesive backing. The most common use is for padding friction points in footwear. "Moleskin tape" probably is still much used by athletic team "trainers" - the guy/gal with the first aid kit.

For "wear around the house" the "housecoat" term is still used in my area, but more often the apparel is referred to as a "robe" or "bathrobe." There are numerous "foreign names" for items in this general class, typically featuring some odd feature - with/without pockets, attached belts, snaps, buttons, high/low cut, opaque/transparent features, etc., but these names generally are known and used only by "uppity ladies" who noticed the glamourous ads when they bought the item at some "fancy-ass-booteek."

If it was intended that one should be seen "in public" a similar sort of apparel might be called a "wrap," or a "smock," and a few people in retail shops may still wear something of the sort. It's permissible to call it a "smock" if you're a retail tradesperson or female, but males wearing the same apparel in other occupations would likely call it a lab-coat or a shop-coat.

"Britches" is and has been commonly used for "anything that goes over that roundish lower part of the body and has separate parts for each of the legs." "Git yer britches on" just means get clothed.

When referring specifically to those obsolete "knee pants" everyone I ever knew called them unequivocally "breeches," and only that. That pronunciation was used specifically and only for the knee-lengths with a "bloused end" at the knee. I can't recall anyone ever wearing "breeches" in public, except on a golf course or in a "period drama" presentation.

A very few of the elders appeared to know more specific names for "styles" of breeches, but these kinds of clothing were so seldom seen after about 1900(?) that few of my parents generation or later made any such distinctions. "Knickers" probably is/was in this category in the central US. Some of these old names were apparently known and used later, particularly in "back-East" areas where "ancient and traditional" school uniforms were more common.

John

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 03:47 PM

I just fed 'breeches' and 'housecoat' into my search facility and copied what they said, or described what I saw.....

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 03:59 PM

What about those stupid-looking long shorts that teenage males like so much, that reach just below the knee? Often, but not always, featuring "cargo" pockets ~ also often, but not always, several sizes too large and worn at "half-mast" (i.e., low-waisted, showing plenty of underwear and/or butt-crack).

I suppose because they're neither shorts nor "longs," my poor sweet old mother coined a term for them a few years ago, as she was just beginning to slip into dementia. She saw a young fellow walk by wearing a typically ill-fitting pair and remarked:

"Look at the schlongs on that guy!"

How she could have lived in New Jersey for seventy-plus years without learning even the most basic Yiddish vulgarities, I'll never know! Even her grandchildren, then teens and preteens, had to bite their tongues to keep from laughing.

(For those of you who are also innocent of Jewish-American vernacular, "schlong" is a word for the, er, male reproductive organ.)

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 04:35 PM

LTS -

There's no real harm in reference to dictionaries, but they're sometimes less than satisfying when the discussion is about local variations in usage. The really interesting (to me) comments are about usages that don't follow the dictionary, and my family and community probably provided a "richer source of examples" than many more cosmopolitan - or more isolated - ones.

Central plains US, especially the semi-rural parts, was a little "inbred" not too long ago. Rural communities in the area were also still very much divided among numerous ethnic(?) and religious factions who mingled but "kept a distance." This allowed exposure to some rather distinctive and very localized "traditions" and practices. As a "city kid" who spent quite a lot of time with "farm relatives" I may also have been more aware of some of the "differences" than kids who grew up within one of the "factions."

But I do hate it when I realize I'm now one of the "old geezers" who can tell the "**young whippersnappers" about things from the good old days that they never heard of.

(** an archaic term with several more modern and appropriate replacements.)

John

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 04:59 PM

The German word in my generation is 'bluejeans' whatever colour they have (but not whatever material: others would be cordjeans or whatever). So we could say "I'm looking for a black bluejeans".

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: SharonA
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 05:12 PM

I'm in the Philadelphia PA area, and we say "jeans" when referring to those denim pants. Sometimes the blue ones are "blue jeans"; the black ones are never "black jeans".

However, my parents (born in the 19-teens) said "dungarees".

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: Gurney
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 04:20 AM

From my reading, not researched personally, 'blue jean' has been carried in various navies ships for a long time, specifically to give/sell to the matelots for trouser making. Certainly it was in the Royal Navy (when they weren't at war with France), and quite likely since before there was a United States, let alone a Levi Strauss.

You can patent anything if you get in first, as drug companies are doing, searching the world for local herbal remedies to steal and patent. Heard about that on the Beeb overseas service.

'Jeans' in the UK when I was young. 'Denims' I remember as an alien name from the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 06:30 AM

Jean is a different fabric from denim. It came from Genoan sailors originally and was a fustian fabric (fustian fabrics have a pile like velveteen, 'moleskin' or corduroy). Jean was woven with only single colour threads. To drag this kicking and screaming into music, at least 2 of the mills in 'Prospect, Providence, Perseverance' were fustian mills, and they made 'moleskin trouser' fabric, popular with blackleg miners.

Denim was supposed to be a serge fabric from Nimes in France (serge de Nimes - serge being a partially woollen fabric that was fairly robust and cheap. It was the staple fabric of use by the lower and working classes but had a nasty habit of becoming shiny when worn. Again, to drag music into it, there's a music hall song that has the line ''eyes that shone like the pants of his blue serge suit'). Anyway. In Nimes, they developed a fabric that didn't get so shiny and was made from two colours of thread, blue and white. This was denim.

Someone must have discovered that denim wore better than jean fabric, and so the trousers formerly made of jean became denim jeans.

I now humbly apologise to my 3rd form teacher.. I spent a term learning history of fabric and told her to her face I'd never need it again.... I'm sorry Miss Underwood, you were right about this. However, you are still wrong about algebra, German, chemistry, physics and P.E..

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 06:36 AM

So Giok, referring to your first posting, jeans were made first from jean, not denim.

But I won't hold it against you..... unless you ask really nicely!

(Fustian is a bolt of cloth woven with 2 layers of weft, with the warp being woven between the two. Cutters would then walk the length of the bolt with a blade, slicing the warp threads and creating two separate pieces of cloth with a pile.)

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 08:43 AM

LTS -

The more complete histories of Strauss indicate that he originally produced his "waist overalls" from both denim and "duck." The reason cited for dropping the "duck" material was that it starts out stiff and stays stiff. Denim "softens" with wear, so it's much more comfortable once you get a little "shine" on it.

Some of the historical accounts claim that Strauss intended to manufacture "awnings and wagon covers" in his new business in California. He forgot that people coming to California already had wagon covers - or what remained of them by the time they arrived, but few people at the time were leaving California and in need of new wagon covers. He apparently converted quickly to general mercantile trade, and gave up on his plans to be a manufacturer.

The duck material of his era would have been a material with which he was familiar as a "light weight" substitute for canvas.

The duck material available now in fabric shops, usually of "white duck" persuasion, is a pretty anemic version of what likely was more common then. Essentially it's "canvas," woven tightly and to stay tight, to repel water in tents and awnings, and/or to minimize air leakage if used as a "light weight" sail material.

Some/most sources apply the "duck" name only to all-cotton fabric, while the more generic "canvas" term is/was used for fabrics made from a variety of materials, which then included cotton and hemp or mixtures of the two and other fibers. Unfortunately cotton fabric is very susceptible to "wet rot" so it would have been used only where the slightly lighter weight was wanted - as in a pair of "overalls."

John

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 09:46 AM

But duck is neither jean nor denim....... it always was a cotton canvas. Jean and denim were a woollen mix and thus much softer to wear and actually better at repelling water.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 07:20 PM

UK English strikes again, John in Kansas.

Over here bib & brace overalls were called dungarees in the 50s and 60s.

Coveralls were, and still are, called boiler suits.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 07:30 PM

Those knee length jobbies have been called Capris since the Dick Van Dyke show when Mary Tyler Moore wore them to great effect.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: Kaleea
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 08:15 PM

"Blu di Genova" is a blue fabric which was made in Genova, Italy. "Blu di Genova" is also a fabulous recording of tunes written by Italian Americans, performed by Internationally famous Guitarist, Beppe Gambetta, & friends. On this album, you may find the answer to the original question of this thread, & some fine pickin'. Blu di Genova, Blue jeans, BlueGrass--get it?

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: GUEST,marks
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 12:57 AM

Somebody referred to Carhartts earlier. This is a brand of indestructible work clothes. Around here standard dress for outdoor work of any kind. Got me some Carhartt biballs for the inlaws farm, and lots of Carhartt outerwear for Winter. They cost, but they last FOREVER!
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: What do you call those blue trousers?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 02:58 PM

Whats all this about stiff ducks? Thread creep sorry but Liz telling about how little boys used to be britched at around 4 - I have a photo of my father at around 3 in a dress. He was the son of a scottish father who decided that his son should wear the traditional male attire ie a kilt. Only problem was they lived on the East India Dock road in East London. The first world war began and as soon as my grandfather went off to fight my grandmother saw sense and allowed the poor lad a pair of trousers much to his relief!
I call them Jean's by the way as they can't be mine as they don't fit!