BS: Telling someone to F... off politely

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: LilyFestre
Date: 03 Apr 05 - 10:14 PM

Hey Jon....have I got a session for you....they are mighty cold folks who welcome few to none, although they advertise that it's an open jam and all are welcome to join in or sit and listen. They don't mind the listeners but most definately are NOT welcoming to those who wish to play. It's a complete turn off for many in the community who might otherwise join them. Too bad. Their loss.

Michelle

PS. I'm glad to hear that the attitude of being above others is NOT the norm!

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 03 Apr 05 - 08:46 PM

I'm in complete disagreement with you Richard. I don't care whether a session is purely instrumental, purely singing or some mix. I don't care whether a session is purely Irish, purely English, etc. or some mix. What I think is great is that the variety of options there are and that each session is different.

I feel it the height of ignorance and arrogance to muscle in on other peoples' sessions as a newcomer and start making demands like "this session should allow songs", etc. If they are good enough to welcome you in to thier session, I think the least you can do is try to fit in with the way they have been enjoying a session and quite possibly playing together for years.

On balance I am more likely to react adversely to those who think they are too good for others to be able to play with them.

I've not met many like that. Most people I've come accross do not worry about who is better than who. The problems tend to come in when someone plays loudly and makes mistakes like playing out of time - one can usualy cope if they play quietly. One "musician" can ruin a session for everyone. Have you for example ever tried playing with the type of bodhran "player" that gets the instrument such a bad name?

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Apr 05 - 07:49 PM

I have been considering this further. I have decided that teling people they cannot sing at a tune session is wholly unacceptable, as would be telling people they cannot play a tune at a song event. It is arrogance of an almost breathtaking kind.

I am also considering the mirror image, of the people who think they are so good that they don't want anyone else to join in (or play in their interval), but who, despite some considerable technical meretriciousness, have no soul, and, as a drummer friend of mine used to say, could not swing with a rope around their neck. On balance I am more likely to react adversely to those who think they are too good for others to be able to play with them.

Not that I often line up with organised religion, but something about casting out the beam that is in one's own eye comes to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: LilyFestre
Date: 03 Apr 05 - 05:56 PM

Funny thing about telling folks to F*** off politely...I think it depends where in the world you live.

I lived in Atlanta for a period of time and was always amazed how the southern women could tell you to F** off in a manner that was so lovely....almost leaving the victim wanting to say thank you. I admire that...too bad I never learned the art beyond, well bless your sweet little heart.........

From my college roommate, who grew up in the Bronx, she would smile this smile that told me to get out of her way....no words needed. Other times she would tell folks directly to their face to shove a splintery telephone pole up their ass sideways...then she'd walk away. Usually mouths were left hanging wide open.....

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: s6k
Date: 03 Apr 05 - 05:29 PM

if you want to tell him to fuck off but politely... then the best solution is to tell him to Feck off

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: Peace
Date: 03 Apr 05 - 05:24 PM

LOL

Good one Eric. Had I not known you have a great sense of humour I would not have said that.

Bruce M

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 03 Apr 05 - 03:59 AM

No offence taken brucie, you will answer on judgement day [ and I don't mean Arnies film ]

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 11:33 AM

If you really ARE the MESSIAH, please don't be offended when I point out that you have used a comma splice.

Signed,

Mehitabel

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 09:56 AM

I AM THE MESSIAH, NOW FUCK OFF.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 06:50 AM

This week I tackled the chap who insisted on singing at our tune session. There were three other singing sessions on this night - advertised locally where he could sing as much as he could. The missing regular partcipants did turn-up this week - so the problem of his insensitive insistence in playing loudly on tunes he does not know and often in the wrong key - remains to be addressed. But he did not try to sing this week.

When he arrived (and there was only one other session member present) I was very blunt. I said " ..... you are not going to insist on singing again this week - are you"?

He was very apolgetic and provided the expected excuses for previous attempts to keep changing the nature of the session. I just pointed out that what was done - was in the past but that if he wished to sing in the future - there were other places that he would be expected to go in order to do this. I accepted his apology - and made it clear that the matter should be dropped.

As no one else seemed to be aware that anything had been said and I did not mention it - there was a bit of intitial unease between the two of but this soon cleared when a few more participants arrived, a few tunes were played and a few pints were downed....

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 03:31 AM

Perhaps something along the lines:-

I say old man, would it be too awful an imposition if I asked you to f--- off. We've had a whip round and there's a taxi outside to the Mexican border.

or a more subtle ploy

Hands up everybody who can play tonight. Not so fast Jim......think about the wording of that question.......people who CAN play, now is that you? I thinks that's what you need to be asking yourself.

or

Jim, I know you've heard about the early days of the folk revival, when anyone could have a go...well that periods over. It finished last week last week, after your contribution to the evening.

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: rock chick
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 03:02 AM

On a different line i felt the same recently in tellling someone to F...O.. but they knew anyway so i didnt need to say anything in the end. Athough i am quite more than capable of doing it should i need to at some point.

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST,12 string stan
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 01:01 PM

Thanks for the comments, Heard a great one last night, This lad apparantly travells to a village 12 miles away on a thursday for their local session, I know the musicians, but seldom make it there, and never realised my 'friend' (Stephen's his name) participated in it, till i went last night
They, like me, are fed up of him. They unlike me are not so polite, and after an hour, he was called aside, and asked to play quieter, leave down the instruments, to no avail, and then the killer line was delivered.

"Stephen, I'm sorry but we can no longer tolerate your disruption, we are going to have to ask you to pack up you instruments and leave the session, and when you learn a bit of music, and timing, you may come back and join in no problem" Stephen replies "I am playing perfectly in time, and have as much right to sit here and play as you do" Reply? "When you get paid by a publican for your music, you can call the shots, here we call the shots, now I'm asking you to fuck off and leave us alone"

He did, He threw me a look as he packed his cases, but i was too engrossed in the wallpaper. This may give me an opening for tuesday as i know he will be down and bring it up......
Till next time.....

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: MudGuard
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 05:20 AM

It's a pub, so you as a guest can't really throw him out.
But then you say that you are paid by the pub owner - so you are wanted there.
Why then do you not ask your employer (a/k/a the pub owner) to throw him out? He should have the right to do it.
You could even "threaten" the pub owner that you won't come any longer when that person is not thrown out.

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 04:56 AM

His problems started when he was very young

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: Boab
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 04:33 AM

Hee-heee-hee! Hand-pulled boy---there are SOME extreme views that can be hilarious!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: Hand-Pulled Boy
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 07:53 PM

What's his personality like? Is he an arrogant, obnoxious twat? Because killing him is an option. You can all chip in to fund a contract on him or do it yourself as it would be cheaper. Alternately why don't you show him this thread then he might commit suicide?

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST,KB
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 04:11 AM

I think the stealthy ignoring him, or stop playing when he plays, or leave the room etc are really quite unneccessarily nasty. I'd hate for that to happen to me & to have to try to figure out why - it just seems sly and childish ....
So I reckon you have to be honest with him - but it seems from your first post that you have already tried that & it failed.
So - given that you can't have an open-for-all session AND exclude someone : you either live with the situation & hope it passes/changes, or make it a closed session & tell him firmly that he is not included.

Kris

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: Boab
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 02:05 AM

Sounds easy---tell the guy to **** ***! But much depends on the personality of the rookie you're dealing with. If he/she is an obvious big-head, and without any justification for wearing that outsize hat, then **** *** ! is entirely deserved and appropriate. If he just hapens to be a "young hopeful", however, and depending for his "practice" on the forbearance of the more experienced sessioneers, then it becomes , for any decent m.c., a moral dilemma. If the guy himself is decent enough he will understand the upset he causes if it is pointed out to him. If obstinacy is his reaction---then tell him to **** ***!!

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: LadyJean
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 01:27 AM

I'd suggest ignoring this guy. I mean, serious ignoring. Leave him out of conversations. Don't talk to him. Don't notice that he's playing with you. (Well you'll notice, but pretend you don't.) He won't like being invisible, and he'll go somewhere else.

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST,GUEST ( billy )
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 10:12 PM

Not interesting at all number 6, just someone being a clever Dick with an inaccurate story.

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: number 6
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 06:18 PM

Interesting story Guest.

Who knows Mr. Hendrix was proabably thrown out of club by some buffoon bouncer like Mundi

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 08:50 AM

This story sorta reminds me of one I heard about a young black guitar player back in the mid 60's. He was just out of the Army, trying to find a living playing in various R & B bands. He was constantly turned down, or kickout of the bands. They said he couldn't play worth a shit. Their version of politely or inpolitely telling him to f@$k off.

His name was Jimi Hendrix

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST,Mappa Mundi.
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 05:12 AM

Hire a bouncer! or tell me where your club is and i'll - ahem, ask him to leave for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 03:33 AM

Speak for yourself Chip2447. I was not like that and I know plenty of others who weren't. A lot of people do recognise the better players and even go as far as trying to learn from them.

I've never thought the attitude described as an age thing. I've known middle age people start and know it all with in a week. A difficulty is they tend to lack listening skills both ways a) to the music being played (which one can do while playing) and b) to any comments made.

That said, maybe mooman is right and there is a chance but even he say's he's met some you can't win with. Whatever, I don't see not wanting a session being ruined as being elitist. As I indicated before, there is a big difference between a weak player (somone I hope we all accept and try to help) and a destructive player (someone who is usually loud, incompetent and lacking in any social awareness).

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST,Chip2447
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 12:33 AM

Music snobs, the lot of you. More of the elitist crap that flows like water around here. Maybe you should look back on your own time as a brash youngster and remember how shitty you played, or how no one could tell you anything because you knew it all. Some of you can't deny it, because you've never outgrown it.

Either take him in and teach him, or move your session elsewhere.
Take your elitest snobbish selves and fuck off.

Music isnt just for those of you who are good at what you do. Music is for everyone, especially FOLK MUSIC.

I've been a member here for a long time, and am by the standards of most of the 'Catters) I am nothing more than a rank(read that as stinky) musician/singer/songwriter. You think that will
stop me from doing what I love. You've got another thing coming. Tell me to fuck off and I'll just grit my teeth and sing louder.

Chip2447 (slam away)

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: number 6
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 10:29 PM

Well said mooman.

I agree with you. Why discourage someone. Who knows with a little help they could be an outstanding musician.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 08:45 PM

We want you to learn by being here but you aren't advanced enough to play with us, yet. So listen, only. please. Thank you. .

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: jacqui.c
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 05:34 PM

I agree with Brucie. Why feel bad about making it clear to this person that he is spoiling the evening for every one else?

It seems that we are conditioned to put up with all sorts of crap because 'it isn't NICE to be rude to other people'. Well, this isn't being rude, it's just stating a fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 04:59 PM

I really like what Robomatic said: The fine. Establish the fine by (prearranged) vote when he's there. Of course, given your description of him, he'll run afoul of it. Call him on it. He'll either pay up grudgingly, with protest, or walk out.

If he pays up, given who he seems to be, he'll run afoul of it again. (And again and again?)

Eventually he'll either shape up (you should live so long) or stop coming around.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: robomatic
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 04:19 PM

$10 fine or drinks all round whenever playing out of tune, to be determined by majority.

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 03:05 PM

If the polite method hasn't worked, then I once again suggest trying my way.
Of course, all your regular musicians have to agree to do it.
When he starts, put your instruments away, grab your beers and either talk among yourselves, or go outside.
I actually saw this work at a session, and no, I wasn't the cause of it.

Seamus

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: Peace
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 02:41 PM

Sit next to him, put your arm around his shoulder and

1) kiss his neck
2) tell him you have crabs
3) sneeze on his shirt

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 02:38 PM

Ask him to play a lttle quieter.

Ask if he can play in time.


Keep on asking him.

Ask him ,please dont play the banjo.

When he plays the bod ask if he can use brushes

Youre new to all this arent you?

Have you considered music lessons?

Will the landlord speak to him?








cough

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 04:45 AM

Start by owning the problem. Then tell him about your problem eg "John, I have a problem when you join in with me on this song: your interpretation is so different from mine. I'd be grateful if you'd not play" This is what each person who is concerned must do - if they want him not to play, tell him.

If there are no tunes he can play with, and he joins in to the detriment of the music despite requests not to, stop playing. Have a drink and talk for five minutes

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST,brucie
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 04:36 AM

Sorry, Stan, but I fail to see why you feel you must be polite when he is not. The next time he picks up the banjo when he shouldn't, tell him to put the thing down or he will have to leave. In some places (I understand) even the mere possession of a bodhran is call for a lynching.

The problem may be that y'all are being TOO polite. Just tell him to either get with the program or het without it. Simple, IMO, and effective.

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST,Partridge
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 04:10 AM

Get someone to be a stooge - a pretend newcomer. Tell him in front of everyone "the rules" Get your stooge to question why you have such rules. You can then have an open discussion about them so that your problem musician knows whats expected. When he next breaks a rule - get the stooge to stand up and point it out to him. Hopefully that might work. You could also try a prayer to the angel of the music session

Pat x

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST,12 string stan
Date: 28 Mar 05 - 09:26 AM

Soree for deserting the thread for a bit.
A few good points raised above, but i failed to mention, the notion of perhaps nuturing his festering ability will not work, because in his eyes, he is one of the best musicians that ever walked the earth, and has no need to stoop as low as to be listening to constructive critisism about himself.

To clear up the setting of the session raised early on, the story is thus
5 years ago one of the local publicans asked us to do a tuesday night session for two weeks, which went so well, it was extended for a month, which went so well it was extended for the summer, which went so well, well it's 5 years later now and a regular fixture, firm favourite with local musicians and customers.
The pub is split into three bars, the first one you walk into through the door is where we host the session. Myself and 2 friends are the main stays of the session (we get paid) and on average are joined by 8 other musicians, sometimes more, sometimes less, who come for the evening out, and nothing else, Amongst the crowd are always a handfull of talented local singers who are called upon to do their piece, and generally good order is, well, the order of the day. If people have no interest in the music, they take themselves off to one of the other bars, leaving us to it, as it should be.
As the person who was asked to start it, it is me who is the host, m/c of the night and we have a good time, so it therefore falls on my head to keep the session in good order, which is where the problem lies, Maybe as suggested, i should just tell him to FUCK OFF, but i would feel soooo bad for doing so, although i'm sure there'd be a round of applause and a few drinks got for me!!
Till later catters!

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: mooman
Date: 28 Mar 05 - 07:52 AM

A different perspective maybe...

After 30 odd years of playing in sessions I've seen a few of these. A "polite" f*** o** (if there is such a thing) is not really a satisfactory solution. If he does go....he will probably go and do the same at somebody else's pub session somewhere else. You say he hasn't any musical ability or etiquette but not all mortals are born with these virtues. Is there any possibility, inside or outside the session, of working with him to help him in these areas?

I have seen, and have on one or two occasions helped, such "basket cases" achieve at least some level of proficiency and sensitivity. (Indeed that is one reason why I tend to teach more than gig these days, as I find helping others infinitely more satisfying). He obviously has some degree of motivation, as he has several instruments and comes along every week, and might appreciate that approach and the desire of others to help him integrate better.

It's true too that sometimes you can't in the end do much to help some people and then possibly honesty (without rudeness) may the best solution (I've had to do that too but rarely).

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: kendall
Date: 28 Mar 05 - 06:36 AM

Good one Guest Jon.
If one can't outsmart an asshole, well...

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 28 Mar 05 - 03:05 AM

Never seen that in a session Seamus but I remember something similar happen in a folk club. Somone had a floor spot and was quite drunk. He took it upon himself to wind the PA up high. It was a nice summer evening and somone suggested we should take our drinks outside. Everyone did this and he was left entertaining himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 28 Mar 05 - 12:22 AM

Let him play as long as he fits in.
Then when he starts to get bothersome, everyone stop playing, put your instruments away, start drinking, and let him play on his own.
Repeat as necessary.

Seamus

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: Pauline L
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 11:48 PM

Bill D's suggestion is both direct and diplomatic. I second the motion.

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: Once Famous
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 08:39 PM

And that is about as polite as I will say it to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 07:18 PM

be a man!!
have the guts to tell him to fuck off
.or punch some sense into the stupid boy


btw .. you sound like a right condecending ****

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 03:44 PM

What Bill D said. If that fails, then what Martin said.

Chanteyranger

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 03:22 PM

Someone said that he can't be excluded because the session's in a pub - I'd seriously question that assertion. If the session is organised by the landlord that may be true but, if it's organised by a group of customers then surely they, the organising group, have a pretty big say on who can join in? In the latter case, although you can't stop this guy coming in to the pub, you surely can ask him not to play? Give him a full and frank explanation, if he insists on playing then there's no option - tell him to Foxtrot Oscar.

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 02:54 PM

I could not accept excluding singers from tune sessions or instrumentalists from song sessions.

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 02:26 PM

Then there are the "noodlers" who constantly pick out of turn like they are the only ones in a circle, preventing the person whos turn it is from getting started. What are they thinking? Are they stupid or just oblivious?

Subject: RE: BS: Telling someone to F... off politely
From: kendall
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 02:23 PM

Listening to someone with no timing singing and playing off key is painful to me, and I don't go to sessions to be annoyed.