BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: robomatic
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 08:53 PM

OOPS:

Looks like I referenced the George Will article which was just a little over a year old and is used in MG's Thread: "The Anti-Semitism of the Intellectuals", instead of the article that is referenced in this thread from September 2003. I consdidered duplicating my post over there but it seems to have degenerated to some mutual characterizations so I'm gonna stand pat here and either leave well enough alone, comment on the article that belongs in THIS thread, start my own thread titled: "Do Jews really matter all that much?" or take a much needed break.

TTFN

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: Alba
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 08:40 PM

"But of course, I forgot that the Left is ALL "pro-human, pro-earth progressives ", "folks who are, ..., infinately more compassionate, wise and intellegent..."

and very good looking and talented too!!!

Just keep in mind these important facts and we shall all get along splendidly Bruce:>)

Just funnin.
Blessings
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: robomatic
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 08:37 PM

While I think MG has given new meaning to the word "Jew baiting" (It used to be the Jew who got baited not the other way around), and while I am reluctant to put together Leftist with Anti-semitic, there is *something* to it IMHO. My experience was a couple years ago when I was working in the Bay Area and I saw a lot of anti-Israel bumper stickers (Israel out of Palestine, etc.). In (the People's Republic of) Berkeley I was crossing the street on a lovely day when a volvo fair festooned with such stickers and banners went by. As he passed by I hollered into his open window something like: "Up with Israel! Fight the Arab Power!" The driver began hollering back and the first thing he said was "I'm Jewish but........" and in order to stay out of traffic I could not linger to hear the rest. Berkeley is the home of Pacifica Radio from which I recall hearing someone define poverty as "violence against the poor".
That and the items which aroused the George Will essay do point to the fact that one 'can' be anti-Zionist and leftist (and Jewish anti-Zionist leftist). And while I have a visceral objection to such folk, it does not make them self-hating Jews (It just makes them idiots).

But the entire spectrum of American liberalism is also broadly pro-Zionist. Leave us not forget that Robert Kennedy was assassinated for his pro-Israel position.

I would venture to estimate that for every anti-Zionist lefty you can find at least one anti-Zionist righty, Patrick Buchanon comes to mind. I have seen the Neo Cons linked with Israel, and although I'm no New-Con expert, the top men in that movement seem to be Jewish. Now whether they were isolated out as Neo-Cons beCAUSE they are Jewish would be a point to consider, but frankly I'm not interested enough in NeoCons to care. God Bless America.

I used to have more respect for Mr. Will, but during the second Clintion administration he began to lose his sense of humour and develop an incipient rant. As for the article by Mr. Will cited here, I agree with it. There is an Italian journalist who said much the same thing at the same time, Orianna Fallaci. I think she was more outspoken than Mr. Will.

I've never been fond of left-wing right-wing labeling because it obscures rather than enlightens. Liberalism and Conservatism are necessary in order to make necessary adaptations to our society without jettisoning the good stuff. It is an eternal discussion. But Communism is not socialism is not liberalism, just as Nazism is not fascism is not conservatism.

And ironically enough, early Zionism is linked with reason to socialism, lest we forget the heavy Jewish involvement with international unionism and the kibbutzniks.

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 08:30 PM

"Basically all MG is saying is "Left-wingers are no good" and "Intellectuals are no good," and stuff like that there. "


Clint, MOST of what I hear around here is that "Right-wingers are no good." and "Fundementalists are no good," and stuff like that there.


With a lot less justification than Martin G. has presented here.

But of course, I forgot that the Left is ALL "pro-human, pro-earth progressives ", "folks who are, ..., infinately more comapssionate, wise and intellegent..."

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 08:02 PM

i still don't know what this is about, because I don't know what Martin means by the "left wing." I know what "left wing" means as an adjective, but not what it means as a noun. "The" left wing does not have a rule book nor a pope; it is not a political party or any kind of organization, any more than anti-Semites are an organization.

Left-wingers and anti-semites both come in all flavors, including Jewish, and some notable musicians.

If you want to talk about Nazi anti-Semitism, that can be defined, and there is a definite relationship there. Or KKK anti-Semitism.

Let's get precise and name names. Who exactly is an L.W.A.-S. and exactly what's the connection between L.W. and A,-S.?

As it is we're all just pushing words around, words with no precise referents.

Basically all MG is saying is "Left-wingers are no good" and "Intellectuals are no good," and stuff like that there.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: Frankham
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 07:13 PM

Here's the analogy. There are plenty of Right-wing Americans who accuse other Americans as being anti-American. The same is happens in Israel. Some Israelis call others anti-Israeli. There is not a lock-step uniform position on what is pro-Israeli or anti-Israeli, pro-semite or anti-semite. As a matter of fact, there is the old joke..you get two Jews in the same room and you will have twelve different opinions. :)

Israel is made
up of many thinking people who often have differning views
with each other....just like Americans.

What some call anti-American others call pro-American and the same case can be made for Israel. This said, there are Israelis who do not agree with the political leadership and policies of the Israeli government and the same can be said for America. The danger here is a kind of McCarthyism that uses rhetoric such as pro and anti for a political agenda and power struggle.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: Chris Green
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 07:02 PM

"Why is there such a wealth of articles on this topic?" BECAUSE IT'S THE INTERNET! Duh!

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 06:49 PM

Gobson asks "Why does there seem to be such a wealth of articles on this topic."

Two possibilities - the phenomenon exists, and is being chronicled (Gobson's thesis, I suppose). Alternatively, it does not exist, and is being conjured.

Some shades of grey in between.

What is the evidence? Evidence, not supposition.

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 02:00 PM

Mted, thank you.

and wolfgang, thank you, also.

I appreciate your comments.

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: M.Ted
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 01:01 PM

The article is disturbing enough to keep you up at night--at least if you don't recognize it as primarily rhetorical--things are not that bad, at least not yet--

But it is important to understand is that the weavers and spinners of anti-semitic poison are gaining ground in European media, in academics, and is even penetrating the left--which is most disturbing, because the left was once the stronghold against them--

Martin isn't familar with the rhetoric of this "new" antisemitism" so he can't tell the difference between it and the legitimate questions, hestitations, and fears that folks have about what is happening in the Middle East--and he doesn't think he needs to--he just goes after everybody--

The people that Martin likes to tangle with here are not the Leftist Anti-Semitic Intellectuals that George Will or anyone else is talking about--on the other hand, Martin is not the cause of all the problems in the world either--there are some very vicious anti-semites out there, and some of them ply their trade on this forum when they can--

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 07:53 AM

Could someone please tell me whether the link still goes to where Martin first wanted it to go?

If yes, I must say I do not at all understand the reaction of many of the first posters. To me they seem not to have read anything but the first couple of lines and to react in a knee jerk fashion to their picture of MG. You even don't care to get simple facts right like that the link does not go to an article but to a discussion

If the link doesn't go now to where it was meant I apologise and can't contribute for I don't know what you are talking about.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 02:41 AM

And even dead he's a better man than you, Martin.

Although I'll admit I never knew any one who could give flying fucks. Or take them -- what the hell does that mean, anyway? Would you give one some time when I can watch?

clint

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: harpgirl
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 11:11 PM

martin gibson is lepus rex. simple as that. Prove he isn't. lepus doesn't play any instruments, bill.

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 08:32 PM

Guest, Clint Keller, I could give a flying fuck. He's also dead.

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 06:11 PM

Martin, my grandfather was a Eugene Debs Socialist Blacksmith and a better man than you.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 04:57 PM

The Martins were Jews? ..bet that's a surpise to them!

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 04:42 PM

Actually it's the Martins and the Goys.

Thanks for the opportunity to show your true colors.

Reform or reformed Judaism. what a petty and insignicant comparison.

Yep, I pay my dues at the URF, the Union for Reform Judaism. Only union I'll ever join.

BTW, my wife made a wonderful Passover Seder. Even as usual had some non-Jewish friends there who enjoyed it. But then again, they weren't flaming rectalite far-left radical Socialists that can be found here.

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 04:32 PM

oh, piffle, anonymous one...he has enough info and depth that it is obvious he knows music. Doesn't change the fact that he's also tedious.
Why not keep the criticisms relevant?

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 04:17 PM

For anyone who believes marvin gibbon is who he says he is, I've got a bridge I want to sell you. He doesn't play anything but jaws harp and he knows nothing about contemporary american music. I don't understand why people believe his feeble attempts to pretend he is musically informed. You people who believe he is who he says he is are all pretty gullible, I think. He's been challenging the big boys for years. Oh, wish him a happy birthday on June 16th He'll be thirty one.

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 03:53 PM

Thanks to the Rabbi for the post on Gibson's ignorance about Reform Judaism.

Whenever he shows his ignorance by saying he's a "reformed" Jew, he reminds me of the distinctly Christian concept of being "born again."

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: Frankham
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 10:29 PM

The right to exist is the birthright of everyone. There is no master race.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 09:15 PM

Yeah, like I said, Bill.... It's his "brownshirtism" and his loyality to Bush, no matter what Bush says that tells me that Martin has moved on from his Jewish past... How or why it happened, while intrigueing, is of less concernt to me than the obvious: the guy is brainwashed...

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 09:09 PM

Oh, I'm convinced Martin is of Jewish hetitage. I have no reason to doubt the general facts he lets drop about his life. It's what he doesn't say about how he got his online 'attitude' that intrigues me.

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 09:03 PM

Yo, Rabbi Zedick,

Yer right as rain! MG ain't no Jew at all... He is a brownshirt Bushite... That is who he worships... Has a little Bushite santuary in his house with Bush's picture over a table with candles and he goes there several times a day to pray to Bush...

That's expalins why Martin is so nasty. He sees the nastiness in Bush and wants to measure up and I'll give Martin credit here... He comes close...

Hey, I ain't gonna say no dumbass stuff like Martin in sayin' "Some of my best friends are Jews" but I will say that many of my friends are Jews and I'd be ashamed to to tell them about Mudcat (and Martin in particular) fir fear of offending these friends...

Some folks just don't get just the damage one can do to a cause until they open their mounths...

I'd like to enter Martin as "Exibit A" into evidence...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 08:35 PM

Pull that "GUEST" post, please, clones--it is a sickening bit of anti-semitic garbage, an has no place here--

[done- if Joe wants to delete it all, he may]

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 08:27 PM

"Oh the Martins and the Coys they were reckless mountain boys...."

Wish they were with us tonight.


Rev Zedek, get a grip. Maybe MG was referring to past tense and he's seen the light and gone Messy-antic. Those folks think they're Jewish AND have their own personal Weapons Carrier savior.

And who's to say they couldn't use a little more 'reformin' anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: GUEST,Rabbi Zedek
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 08:10 PM

Oh, but I am a Jew. To the truly ignorant like many here who don't know much about Jews, reformed Jews observe Shabbos different than Orthodox. This does not necessarily make them bad Jews for driving a car, using electric lights, wearing shoes, etc. The Reformed Judaism movement is just not as extreme.

And therein lies the proof of the pudding that MG is not what he claims to be. He often claims to be a "reformed Jew" and a member of the "Reformed Judaism movement." If that were truly the case, MG would know that there is no such thing as a "reformed Jew" or "Reformed Judaism movement."

If MG were actually what he claims to be, he would know that he is a "Reform Jew" and a member of the movement of "Reform Judaism."

An actual Reform Jew would not make that mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 07:37 PM

Is this article for real?!

The entire article is a stinkin bunch of BS.

I am particularly incensed with pornographer Seymour Butts' [Butts??!!] comments on Blacks..

Butts needs his ass kicked for those comments.

I mean- can he be more sterotypical?

Puleeze! [said with a great deal of sacasm].

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 07:20 PM

Jews in Porn

An early version of an article at www.lukeford.com [huge copy-paste article removed- - Note- the link takes you to some very explicit porn. Be warned. The article seems to have been taken from http://christianparty.net/porn.htm

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 06:30 PM

(you know a bit about country/mountain music, Martin...remember "The Martins and the Coys?)

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 06:23 PM

um-hmm...we will keep killing each other for the principle of "survival"...and when there are 14 left on each side?

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 06:17 PM

Winning? This is not a game. This is survival. That's what you don't get.

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 06:13 PM

"...who has time to keep diseecting that criticism and catagorize it as to which bucket of criticism to put it in?"

we all do! It is too important to allow mistakes. If someone hides their anti-semitic views too well to tell for sure, then the rest of us just have to do the best we can to sort out the best POLICIES!

In the Middle East right now, there is enough blame and bad decisions on BOTH sides to go around. There ought to be a way for decent Jews and well-meaning Palestinians to share and live quiet lives...but there are hot-heads on BOTH sides dedicated to making sure no peace is achieved without their side "winning".

I don't have to be anti-Jewish OR anti-Arab to see that!

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 05:50 PM

Biil D, we cross posted. Probably true to some extent, but the point that I have been trying to make is that way too many use that type of thinking you describe as a veil for their anti-semitism.

To the majority of Jews, criticizism of Israel is generally about anti-semitism. Besides, who has time to keep diseecting that criticism and catagorize it as to which bucket of criticism to put it in? How do you tell the truthful criticism from the deceit or excuse to hate?

That's my views. Discuss it or dodge the facts as you see fit. Denial was expected on my end.

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 05:43 PM

Oh, but I am a Jew. To the truly ignorant like many here who don't know much about Jews, reformed Jews observe Shabbos different than Orthodox. This does not necessarily make them bad Jews for driving a car, using electric lights, wearing shoes, etc. The Reformed Judaism movement is just not as extreme. By the way, I am taking a break right now from helping my wife prepare for the Paaover seder we are having for 10 family & friends. If anyone wants to know more about Passover, please PM me and I will tell you about this special holiday. You too, dianavan, as I feel you are truly one of the most uninformed here about Judaism, amonst some other things.

I only get angry with morons, Amos. You should know that by now firsthand.

Yes, I play bass and banjo as well as guitar. Sing, also. Sometimes as a solo, sometimes doing tenor harmonies with groups.

Raedwulf, I actually have quite a few friends here who I PM with a lot behind the scenes. Needless to say, they are not any of the elitist, pompous, arrogant, far left wing socialists who hang out here. They know who they are and realize that I am on to their BS.

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 05:40 PM

to briefly address the subject:

There certainly are folks who harbor anti-semitic feelings..on both the left and the right....just as there are folks of various types who are racially prejudiced. They can be spotted fairly easily in some cases, not so easily in others.

The problem comes with the "if you aren't for us, you're against us!" attitude. Criticizing a Jew or a Jewish policy is not the same thing as criticizing Jewishness or Judaism, and sadly, there are folks who have such a big chip on their shoulders that they can't...or won't bother...to tell the difference.

Perhaps it's a bit of "the squeaky wheel gets the grease" notion. I rather think that a better metaphor here would be the "Boy who cried "wolf" story."

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 04:34 PM

Ah, M. Ted- he plays banjo too. :)

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 04:31 PM

There are a couple things about Martin I like--assuming of course he is who and what he says he is--the fact that he seemed to keep Shabbas being one--that he was dedicated to his family, another, and that he played bass--all reflective of some inner goodness--

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: Raedwulf
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 03:39 PM

Others here I really like.

Wow! Now THAT is news. Martin actually likes someone here? I can't imagine who, cos I've yet to see him say a good word about anyone.

Scoop of the decade, of course, would be finding someone that likes Martin. Even someone that has a good word to say about him...

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 03:16 PM

Undefined classes.

I would vote for (almost) anyone except GWB. Including a bunch of Republicans, and I think the bait-and switch war agaist Iraq as a response to terrorism is dishonest. Does this make me left-wing? And if so, does that make me anti-semitic?

If an anti-semite loves apple pie and his mother and votes straight Neo-con does it make him left-wing?

Folk Wisdom:

It's not a good idea to rassle with a hog. He won't know if you win, you get shit all over you, and the damned swine loves it.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: Amos
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 10:59 PM

The old adage is that you can't get the truth from an angry man. And Martin, sorry to say, is always acting angry.

A

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 10:58 PM

Yer right, d, Martin isn't a Jew... He's a died-in-the-wool Bushite...

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 09:50 PM

Like I've said before, I don't think Marti is a Jew. He just likes to whip up anti-Semitism. If it weren't for him, it wouldn't even be a subject on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 09:17 PM

Posting on Shabbas? Not like you, Martin--

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: GUEST,observer
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 08:34 PM

Martin, you twit.

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 07:49 PM

There are two kinds of people in the world, they say: one kind gets ulcers and the other kind gives them. The kind that gives them can't help it, though. It must be sad to be so at the mercy of one's bile.

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 03:52 PM

Feel fine, Amos, and am in perfect health.

I don't hate everyone. Just a few here, actually.

Others here I really like.

What's your next angle?

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: Amos
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 03:22 PM

AIry generalizations, circular in logic and filled with hatred, MG. Did you know that being so hate-filled actually harms your health?


A

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 03:14 PM

[bleep - for antisocial behavior]Amos, you live on tripe.

Enjoy these articles.

There are so many more out there that are from credible sources and give you the feedback you just have a problem with.

Maybe I will start doing 1 a week.

Subject: RE: BS: More on left-wing Anti-Semitism
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 12:04 AM

yawn