BS: An Old Friend Called....

Subject: BS: An Old Friend Called....
From: LilyFestre
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 01:37 PM

An old friend called last week, obviously very upset and needing to talk. He had been drinking. We talked for a few hours, he discussed his life and how unhappy he is and that he thinks he has a drinking problem. He spoke about wanting to go to a rehab. He mentioned suicide. We made a plan to get him through the night and made specific plans as to when I would call him and he promised he would wait at least that long. I called at the time agreed upon and he was chipper and laughing and fine. He called again on Saturday afternoon and we talked for well over an hour, again he was fine.

Yesterday, between the hours of 4:30pm and 7:00pm, he called my home phone and left 3 messages. The first was a hello, call me. The second was, it's urgent and I'm going to wait here until you call me. The third was incoherent. I had my cell phone but not his phone number. Because his phone is listed under another friend's name, I couldn't call information for his number, but I did call his father. I told him about the situation and he gave me the number I needed. I called my friend 4 times in the span of an hour with no answer. When I got home, I called and left a message that I was now home and he could reach me there whenever he got the message. He called about an hour later and obviously had been drinking.

When I asked him about it he told me that he hadn't had a drink since 5:00. He started talking about his life and how it wasn't worth shit and suicide. I told him that if he really wanted to talk about that, it was fine with me BUT he should know that if I had ANY inkling that he was going to do something to hurt himself, I would call 911 and either the police or an ambulance would be there to pick him up and take him for a minimum 72 hour observation at the local hospital. I just can't deal with that kind of responsibility, you know? He said ok. Then he started talking about his drinking issues and how he really wants me to help him find a rehab. I'm willing to work on that end but not long after he said this, I heard a can being popped open. I said, "Are you drinking a beer right now?" He said, "Yep, just got one out of the cooler." I told him that I wasn't going to talk to him while he was drinking. He said, "Well, I guess we aren't going to be talking much then." I said, "No, I guess not. Have a good evening," and I hung up.

I called his father back and he said I did the right thing. I live about 3 hours from this guy (who is 38 years old) so there isn't a whole lot I can do. I suggested that he visit his family Dr., find a clinic, walk into any ER, call AA....he has excuses for all of it why HE can't do it but that I could HELP him do it. I'm frustrated with him and wonder if he really WANTS help, why can't he, or won't he make that first phone call? He had no problem telling me all about it but won't seek professional help.

Any suggestions here? He is an old friend who I really would help if I could, but I don't know what to do beyond what I have offered.

Anything constructive would be very appreciated!

Thanks!

ML

Subject: RE: BS: An Old Friend Called....
From: Amos
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 01:45 PM

You did the right thing, LF. My guess is he's is seeking sympathy and encouragement but is at the same time unwilling to take responsibility for whatever the shades are that are haunting him. If you keep on persisting with the same messages -- get to a rehab, go to AA, stop f***ing around with this situation... it will give him the only opportunity he needs, the opportunity to make a reach for change. The only two things you should give him are acknowledging whatever he wants to say and a gentle insistence that he recove rhis self-worth and get his ass into a program. Nothing more. That's my 2 cents worth.

A

Subject: RE: BS: An Old Friend Called....
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 01:47 PM

Sounds like he's desperate for help but can't bring himself to admit it and wants someone else to shoulder the responsibility, possibly so he can blame them when it doesn't work. It's a difficult call and I'm glad I don't have to make it.

Take care...

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: An Old Friend Called....
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 02:53 PM

One of the first effects when alcohol is consumed (even a relatively small amount) is that the brain's self-observation and self-evaluation function is impaired. People often honestly think they are "fine" when it is observable and measurable (from the outside) that they are not "fine" at all. So this is one reason you can't really take what someone says, when they have had a drink, as reflective of any kind of reality-- good or bad.

That's the physiology behind old saws like "never argue with a drunk" or "they have to quit first and then start recovering."

I think in Alanon they would tell you: express your love to your friend but don't get sucked into talking to him when he has been drinking-- maintain your own boundaries and wellbeing, because that's the first and sometimes only possible priority when dealing with someone who is addicted to just about anything!

We get many calls at our house like the one you got, both personally and professionally. I would suggest that, knowing your pastor, he is a seasoned professional with whom you can confidently discuss this matter.

Sucks, tho, don't it????????????

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: An Old Friend Called....
From: gnu
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 02:54 PM

You can't help. Even if you were just up the street, you couldn't help. Only one person can help him. So don't be hard on yourself and DON'T take on any guilt.

As far as that first call to rehab, there may be obstacles, such as, what happens to his job if he tells his boss he's going into rehab for, say, a month? What about his relationships with friends and relatives who don't know about his problem?... and so on. It may be very difficult for him to "come out" but he is the only one who can overcome these problems. You cannot do it for him.

He should be calling a rehab to discuss these things. That's what they do. As far as you helping him find a rehab, don't. He will call on his own, when he is ready. And not before.

Subject: RE: BS: An Old Friend Called....
From: SINSULL
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 03:44 PM

Lily,
I choose to take threats of suicide seriously. He may be looking for sympathy and he may be crying for help. You did the right thing. Now maybe you could follow up with a mailed list of services available for him in his area with a note of concern and a repeat that when he is ready to help himself you are there for him BUT not before.
Mary

Subject: RE: BS: An Old Friend Called....
From: LilyFestre
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 06:11 PM

Ok, well because there is SO much more to the story, I just want to say that I have set my boundaries with him as far as the drinking goes. I will not try to talk to him when he is drinking, his thinking isn't clear and he talks in circles without hearing anything that is said.

I agree that he is the only one who can help himself and have shared that with him. He feels he can't do it alone. He knows that I will be here with an open ear to talk (when he is sober).

I have compiled a list of rehabs in his area and some near his family (near me too) as well as phone numbers and times for AA Meetings. He said he would go and then followed it up with an excuse as to why he couldn't. To me, that says he isn't ready.

I received a package from him in the mail yesterday, full of pictures of him. Since it's been a LONG time since we have seen one another, I will be sending out some photos of myself to him as well as the list I have made.

I think I'll give him a holler tonight just to let him know that I don't think he's a dirtbag, that I'm still here and when he wants to chat, he can call anytime..just so long as he's sober.

I appreciate the responses very much.

Thanks guys!

LF

Subject: RE: BS: An Old Friend Called....
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 06:50 PM

"Sober" also depends on what his level of daily drinking is nowadays. A lot of drinkers are not actually sober at all in a given day or week or month. The outer effects may be less discernible, when they drink to feel "normal," but the subtler effects on judgment are still happening even though they may sound "fine" or feel "sober enough" to fit your boundary. So good luck not getting your heart broken-- it's really tough to care and still keep the boundaries.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: An Old Friend Called....
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 07:37 PM

I've had two friends die of chronic alcoholism. Nothing I, or all their other friends could do stopped them. Be careful he doesn't suck you as dry as he sucks the can.

Subject: RE: BS: An Old Friend Called....
From: LilyFestre
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 07:39 PM

I suppose it is hard to keep big time boundaries with people you care about but I can enforce what my own limits and comfort zones with him are.

The reminders about boundaries are good. I thought I did well with it last night.

LF

Subject: RE: BS: An Old Friend Called....
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 08:12 PM

I think so too. The problem with alcoholism though is that it is a disease, and those with it infect those who love them. There is a cycle that almost inevitably sucks in those who care, because it's so illogical (illogical that you can't actually help) that it can take a lot of heartache before you realize you inadvertently got sucked past your boundaries... it's part of the disease to get others caught up in it with them. We who care can't control the disease (our part of it) any more than the addicted one can. That's the really, really hard and sucky part.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: An Old Friend Called....
From: SINSULL
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 08:44 PM

Lily,
He obviously thinks a lot of you and trusts you. Remind him that someone as wise and valuable as yourself wouldn't waste time and energy on a loser. Your friendship proves his value.
Just a thought,
Mary

Subject: RE: BS: An Old Friend Called....
From: LilyFestre
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 09:11 PM

Thanks Mary, that's a different way to look at things, which is just was I was looking for in this thread. :)

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: An Old Friend Called....
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 10:27 PM

Go with Mary's advice.

Some people will never listen until it is too late and then it is yourself that will feel the guilt, which you should not. You have reached out to him but he is not reaching out himself apart from calling on you. Until he faces up to his problem then he will remain in the same position.

Subject: RE: BS: An Old Friend Called....
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 10:44 PM

Hey, as long as you don't play any of his "needed" roles, you are on the right side of the relationship...

You might wants check in with Al-Anon which is set up fir friends and family of alcoholics...

So far, you've done well in not playin' either the "inabable" or the "procescutor" in yer firned's life so you probably still can help this person but not without Al-Anon...

Good luck...

It's a crap shoot at best....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: An Old Friend Called....
From: Pauline L
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 03:49 AM

Michelle, I know that you are a caring and responsible person and that you want to help your friend. However, you have to keep in mind that your ability to help him is very limited. Alcoholics tend to be controlling and he now has some control over you. Don't play into it. I suggest that you get in touch with someone from Alanon for advice on what you can and can not do. They're experts, while you're inexperienced in these matters. No matter what happens, don't feel guilty. You can not control him.

Subject: RE: BS: An Old Friend Called....
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 08:15 AM

He may be calling you because he has already alienated friends and family nearer to him by his refusal to seek treatment.

If he is suicidal, his family should intervene, and get him into the 72 hour detox, and then a rehab program.

It is a crap shoot, but a lot of alcoholics stop drinking when someone else intervenes forcefully (to have him committed to rehab) on their behalf. Not taking responsibility for one's self is a central aspect of the disease, not a failure of will power, self-discipline, or a character flaw. If he says he can't get himself into rehab, I'd believe him. Most alcoholics find it impossible to take that step, which is why family interventions become so important to saving the person's life.

If you can do anything, perhaps you can convince his family to take that action. That is probably his best hope.

Subject: RE: BS: An Old Friend Called....
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 03:49 PM

Well you could take him to an AA meeting. Or to a doctor. Perhaps he needs moral support. As you're on the net print off the AA website and send it to him..

I'm just trying to think of positive things you could do.

Its a spooky situation. What with death threats etc.

I used to drink a lot too much for my own good, and anybody else's around me. Personally speaking, it took me a long time to give up and realise that I had to give up. Some of us are just a bit stupid on this subject.

i can remember making a similar sort of phone call. people have all sorts of inhibitions about seeking help. i remember being too ashamed to seek help. I can remember reading through the AA webpage and feeling really spooked. I haven't had a drink since - coming up to two years now.

at least your friend seems to want to stop, realises something is wrong woith his life. Took me a LONG time to admit that.

all the best with a tricky situation

Big Al Whittle

Subject: RE: BS: An Old Friend Called....
From: GUEST,georgiansilver
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 04:12 PM

You can only do what your instinct tells you! Do it and hope that all turns out well...if it doesn't..it's NOT YOUR FAULT. We have no rehearsals for this life and have to do what we feel is right at the time.....We all make mistakes of course....but are not always to blame.
We ALL have a choice..including your friend. Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: An Old Friend Called....
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 04:32 PM

game of alcoholism: patsy, rescuer, connection, persecutor, drinker...not a disease. It isn't caught. It's a psychological game with a deadly outcome. a form of passive suicide in it's worst incarnation. don't play any of the first four roles or you are a part of the problem and not the solution.

Subject: RE: BS: An Old Friend Called....
From: GUEST,georgiansilver
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 05:01 PM

Be YOU!

Subject: RE: BS: An Old Friend Called....
From: GUEST,25 Apr 05 - 08:15 AM
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 08:40 AM

Guest 25 Apr 05 - 04:32 PM,

I don't argue the semantics about alcoholism with people who insist it isn't a disease. It is most certainly a mental disorder that is exacerbated by the ingestion of the substance, as all substance abuse is. Now, you seem to be from the school that says mental illness isn't a disease the way something like multiple sclerosis is a physical disease. But most health professionals would disagree with you. We humans are just as crippled by addiction as we are multiple sclerosis.

Many forms of mental illness can list manipulativeness, self-centered narcissism, and other behaviors common to alcoholism, as common to their disease states as well. It doesn't mean the person suffering the disease can stop those behaviors without treatment, through will power and self-discipline. To suggest otherwise is to demonstrate a profound ignorance of mental health issues.

I will say this again. If the friend is suicidal and can't bring themselves to seek help, take them at their word, and work with the family to get them committed to 72 hour detox and a rehab program. It could possibly save their life.

Subject: RE: BS: An Old Friend Called....
From: LilyFestre
Date: 04 May 05 - 09:52 PM

My old friend is returning to his hometown to visit his family and myself this weekend. He wants to get together on Saturday night. I told him that I go to church Saturday evening and he said that would be fine, he'd like to go with me. :) Afterwards, we are going to meet up with some friends and just hang out. I haven't received any more phone calls where I've had to hang up. This is good. :)

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: An Old Friend Called....
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 May 05 - 11:06 PM

:~)

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: An Old Friend Called....
From: JedMarum
Date: 04 May 05 - 11:26 PM

For every one alcoholic there a 6 people he/she's made sick. He will use you, he drag you down with him, he will make you pay for his sins ... as long as he is drinking.

Keep your distance. Push him to help himself. That is the only way really be his friend.

A close friend of mine, badgered his father with his drunkeness. Pushed and pushed him. Dad gave in sometimes, and not sometimes. Dad sometimes encouraged help, but always relented when the alcoholic son threatened suicide or just pushed back too hard. It went on for years - the parents divorced over the pressure - Mom and the girls tried to start a new life ... one day on the Dad's birthday he found the son hanging in the backyard; right in front of the sink where Dad would always start his day making coffee. Dad killed himself a few years later, on his birthday.

Be very careful your friend isn't looking to share the blame of his alcoholic burden. Don't let him make you be his reason for living - because if he isn't well, he just might make you his reason for NOT living.

Subject: RE: BS: An Old Friend Called....
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 05 - 10:33 AM

If you Google Alanon you will find several online forums for friends and family of alcoholics. They have a lot to share.

Subject: RE: BS: An Old Friend Called....
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 05 - 10:40 AM

Someone shares about relationshop with an alcoholic:

May Day

My mom, my daughters, and I were taking a trip to see the sights. As we traveled along the highway toward Chicago, we couldn't see the tops of the skyscrapers through the fog. We cruised around for a while before stopping to look at Lake Michigan. The May Day sun was beginning to win the battle between moisture and blue sky as we parked the car. I remembered learning that thick fog often loses the battle to a beautiful day, but it always seems so hopeless in the beginning.

The temperature began to rise as we walked on a concrete dock along the shore. The building tops disrobed revealing their true height. The beach was almost empty, except for an occasional jogger and a few die-hard volleyball players. I kicked off my shoes and walked across the cool sand. The others followed. I knew the water would be cold, even though I had seen tulips beginning to bloom. Spring in Chicago was weeks behind our spring back home. Undaunted, I had to put my feet in the lake. It was as cold as a glacier!

Jagged knives dug into my skin and begged me to get out of the water. My ankles froze and my feet went numb, but I went in deeper. My knees were begging for mercy. Only when I moved did I feel anything, as if the moving itself caused the pain, so I remained still. My senses dulled to the threat around them—a wondrous coping mechanism, I thought.


For a moment I stood there contemplating my surroundings. Mom called to me, challenging me to come out of the cold blue lake. I surrendered. Each step out of the water and across the sand produced a new experience in pain—the air on my wet skin, coarse sand on my feet, blood fighting to raise my body temperature to 98.6. Such was life.

I thought about the Serenity Prayer: "God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change." Trying to change an alcoholic was like trying to warm Lake Michigan with my body heat!


In my case, going into the relationship with the alcoholic was appealing. It was a challenge for sure, but I chose it. As I went in deeper, I lost some of my senses. Still, I continued trying to affect change, but all I felt when I moved was pain, so I stood still, waiting for the lake to get warm. Maybe it would happen if I waited just a little longer.


It was only when someone encouraged me to save myself that I chose to do something different: "Courage to change the things I can." Change brought on more pain! Surrender my will to the will of a loving Higher Power? I chose this! Wasn't I supposed to see the relationship through to the end?


Leaving the water was only a response to a greater call, and it did not make me a failure. If the lake's temperature was going to rise, it needed a Power greater than mine. I don't need to have all the answers.


The Al-Anon program has given me tools to survive the pain: "And wisdom to know the difference." I won't escape the pain, but I can survive it. The program calls me to take care of myself by giving my life to a Power greater than myself. Nothing is bigger than my God. He can burn away the fog and bring the infinite sky into full view.

http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/forum.html