BS: The news is getting better and better!

Subject: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 01:00 PM

Once again, our liberal friends have gotten some bad news and this time, it's even from a liberal source such as the LA Times. You know, the good thing about the internet is that these liberal media outlets can no longer hide what they consider to be bad news on page 6 below the fold. You can read the story from the link below.


It seems as if the number of uninsured Americans has been underestimated. Now it seems, at most, only thirty-six million Americans are currently not covered by insurance instead of the forty-five million that the left has been consistently quoting over the past two to three years. With the number of uninsured going down and the number of unemployment job claims going down then what bandwagon will the left jump on next? It seems as if things are actually starting to look up, afterall.

It seems as if the Tom Delay fiasco is slowly fading away with the learning that he is only 28th on the list of people that have possibly accepted trips paid for by lobbyists. Above him are many democrats including Nancy Pelosi that have accepted more. I'm personally for getting rid of everybody from Delay on up the list if the lefties are so inclined. But this would seem to do nothing but stall the forward momentum of the government.
So if this is the best that you've got then Conservatism as the accepted form of US government seems to be the way of the future.



Updated numbers on Insured Americans?


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 01:27 PM

It seems as if things are actually starting to look up, afterall.

From the article:

A lower estimate of the number of uninsured Americans may provide only a fleeting sense of relief, however. Both groups of outside researchers found that the ranks of the uninsured continue to rise with the erosion of private coverage.

"Whatever method one applies, we're still going to get rising uninsurance," said Linda Giannarelli of the Urban Institute. "This problem is not going to go away."

Subject: RE: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From: Wesley S
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 01:31 PM

So it's supposed to be a good thing that ONLY 36 million people are uninsured ? I'm glad that's an acceptable number for you. It isn't for me.

And I'm with you on one thing. Lets get rid of any of the politicians that are accepting bribes. I don't care what party they are from. And lets not change the rules to save any of them - right ?

Only 28th on the list ? Is that supposed to make it acceptable ? How about unacceptable anywhere on the list ?

Subject: RE: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From: PoppaGator
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 01:31 PM

It's buried at the very bottom of the article, but it is clearly stated that economists and experts from both ends of the political spectrum agree that the number of uninsured ~ whatever the exact count ~ is increasing because, as is obvious to everyone, employment-based health benefits are being reduced across the board by large and small employers.

In other words, the actual number of uninsured is not decreasing; we may be getting more accurate numbers now, which may indeed be lower than previously reported, but things are not "getting better and better" ~ not hardly! While the numbers may indeed have been overreported in the recent past, and are now being corrected downward, there is still a large number ~ and, more significantly, an increasing number ~ of uninsured Americans.

Contrary to Adam Smith and the neoconservative movement, profit-driven private enterprise is not necessarily the ideal medium for progress in every field, and it should be obvious that public health is one area where the public sector could be more effective than the corporations.

The extremely complicated and wasteful current procedures for administering corporate medical claims, contrary to right-wing anti-government-bureaucracy dogma, create greater inefficiency than would a "socialistic" single payer system (like the rest of the industrialized world uses). The private sector creates bureaucracy too! Of course, the current labyrinth of private insurers, each with its own system of codes and categories, etc. has created a huge number of good white-collar jobs that would disappear if and when the process gets streamlined and all that private-sector paperwork gets eliminated. But, of course, the newly-unemployed "medical coders" and other pencil pushers would at least have public health coverage while searching for new employment.

Subject: RE: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 02:05 PM

36 million? 45 million? How am I supposed to know whether those numbers are good or bad?

Will somebody please tell me how many people ought to be uninsured? Then I'll know.

Subject: RE: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 02:08 PM

Zero would be a good target to aim for.

Subject: RE: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 02:17 PM

if an uninsured person goes to a hospital with an emergency, most hospitals will treat them, and the cost gets passed to you and me. NOT having insurance....even just minimal insurance....creates disease and health and social problems that affect all of society. It would be FAR better to control problems in some organized way, rather than let 15-25% of society fall thru the cracks and eventually cost the system more than if they were reasonably insured in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 03:06 PM

Well,


Let's look at it this way.


If the unemployment number are going down and uninsured numbers are going up then it seems to me by the process of LOGICAL thinking that either taxes are too high for the individual or employers can't offer benefits like once before because the corporate taxes are too high.

That offers another question....why is it that you guys believe that healthcare is a RIGHT? I'll admit that it would be nice if everybody had it but at the expense of everybody else? That is unacceptable. Even the socialistic idea of universal healthcare sounds good on the surface but look at Canada....I read a story a few weeks back about people having to stand in long lines and waiting weeks and weeks to see a doctor and to have tests done. (I will look for the story and link to it if I can) That too, is unacceptable. The last time that I read the Bill of Rights, I didn't see where it was written that anybody should have the right of government healthcare or any healthcare for that matter. So those that do have it should be grateful and those that don't should strive to get it.


"Of course, the current labyrinth of private insurers, each with its own system of codes and categories, etc. has created a huge number of good white-collar jobs that would disappear if and when the process gets streamlined and all that private-sector paperwork gets eliminated."

The above quote was from PoppaGator's post earlier. Your idea of socialized medicine would do nothing but reverse the direction that the country is headed it as far as job creation and growth. What you are supporting is an idea that would do nothing but depress an economy that has seen significant growth in the last four years.

The numbers quoted above puts us at about 14% of the US population that's currently without some type of healthcare. That is a shame. But to tell the other 86% that do have it that some of them may lose their jobs and current coverage in order for the other 14% to have it is taking a huge leap backwards.

Think, people, Think.


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From: mg
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 03:49 PM

As usual I am an omniist on every side of this issue. I want health care for the uninsured, I want catestrophic coverage especially, I do not want the current system, patch-work as it may be, to be destroyed to get it, I want the people who could afford to pay more of the health care costs to insure themselves, and some can, . If people receive medical care, I want it to be on a sliding scale of costs so that no one is ruined but you should have to pay something..if not money, then in your services, as they do in some hospitals..wash windows or something...I would like to see private pay always kept because it will drive costs down eventually and keep standards up and I would like a public system as well, with numerous public clinics staffed by nurses, PA-Cs, and other non-doctors. I'm all for integrative medicine and preventive medicine and people being as responsible as possible for maintaining their heallth etc.

mg

Subject: RE: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From: Amos
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 05:05 PM

It is not a right, and if you really think we ought to go back into the PLeistoce where tooth and claw were the only measure of human ability, be my guest.

The question is not if it is a right or not, but can and should we build a society that provides a basic minimum safety net?

I think there are arguments on both sides. Reactionary neocons -- almost always those who have gotten theirs one way or another -- believe that anyone without healthcare is at fault for not having done well enough. This confuses responsibility (which each human must take on their own) with blame.

It is obvious that some people are deadbeats, a condition which comes about through excessive coddling OR through overwhelming duress, OR through physical disability or biochemical imbalances OR through substance abuse OR through gene defects.

It is obvious also that some people are a lot easier to help than others, some people turn their lives around and head north more readily than others, and some people are hard to help.

The question which remains is, how helpful should a society be? How much help CAN we afford, and how much SHOULD we afford.

Your mindless carping about "liberals", which is being used much int he way "Commies" used to be during the pinko-panics of the Fifties, does nothing to inform or advance that dialogue, SH. Why do you keep slinging out heat instead of light?

Or, do you think that all help is folly or betrayal, and those who believe in offering one kind of help or another are just deluded softies?

A

Subject: RE: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 05:16 PM

Why should insurance be linked to employment? If I leave a job of work, my body is the same body that will now have to shift insurance systems to Cobra and then to my next employer's program, which I will have to relearn. Why not have the same insurance system to look after my body regardless of whom it works for?

For reasons unfathomable to me, my government leaders have chosen to ignore this problem which concerns tens of millions of people right now and concentrate on medicare finances, which is a 'problem' in name only, and where the prospects are so far in the future it will have to be re-fixed no matter what. It's the biggest red herring in politics of recent times (along with missile defense systems which cannot be made to work).

Subject: RE: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From: Once Famous
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 05:30 PM

If it's not tied to employment, all you will see is the usual deadbeats and freeloaders.

Work for it. No one is entitled.

Subject: RE: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 05:31 PM

"he is only 28th on the list of people that have possibly accepted trips paid for by lobbyists"

This is exactly the sort of assertion that requires a reference to be the least bit credible. Not saying it might not turn out to be, but when stated with no source it carries zero weight in LOGICAL thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 05:43 PM

Here's your LOGICAL link, TIA.



With love,


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From: harpgirl
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 05:48 PM

Bill, I disagree with your premise that MOST hospitals will treat uninsured people. That is just not true. My dear friend Marty Schuman went to Tampa General with cancer and he was turned away. He went to a doctor friend's clinic in Beckley west virginny and died in comfort there.

Moreover, the coverage offered is decreasing. I pay 570 dollars a month for insurance for myself and my son. A recent problem with his foot cost 25 for the copay at the doctor's office, 20 for the medication, another 75 at the emergency room at the health plan, and when we were all done, he had the operation on his foot at his school because no one here would do what was necessary. Thank god his school has doctor's on staff. I thought his toe was going to fall off from the "treatment" we got on my health plan.

susu and her hubby ar just divise plants. they aren;'t real people anyway. come on, they just show up one day on the forum and suddenly know everyone and their politics. I think they are another of lepus' rex's made up characters, frankly. He can log in a t any computer at his school. There are hundreds. We'll be plagued with these made up people until that school finally fires his ass.

Subject: RE: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From: Once Famous
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 05:57 PM

Every emergency room has a sign that says by law they cannot turn any one away.

They do not however, have to give you long term care, which is what your friend obviously needed.

Subject: RE: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 06:24 PM

There are certainly some people out there that could afford to pay for their health care but don't and others who could be holding down jobs and supporting themselves but don't bother (which is my definition of deadbeats), but there are many more who don't have job skills, or who can't find a job (and can't afford to move to where jobs might be) or who are too disabled to hold gainful employment.

I'm not exactly sure what Susu's Hubby thinks a liberal is, but I assume that he's not referring to the dictionary definition of "freely giving, tolerant of other viewpoints and favoring reform or progress". Or maybe he is. Personally I think that the United States, as the country with the fourth-highest per-capita income in the world, should be able to afford to help out those individuals who are unable (and that's different from unwilling) to help themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 06:59 PM

And of course there is also the problem of the many working poor people who have no insurance and no access to health care. These people have jobs, but their jobs do not provide any insurance benefits, and they don't pay enough for people to be able to afford to buy it on their own. Their emergency room visits cost money and that cost does eventually get spread out to the rest of the country. But at a much higher cost than if these people had access to adequate health care to begin with. So it really is penny wise and pound foolish to not make sure that everyone has adequate health care right from the start.

Subject: RE: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From: PoppaGator
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 07:13 PM

"Job creation" may not always be a good thing (except of course for those who fill the jobs that are created).

Does the proliferation of work required to decipher and complete tons of redundant medical-payment paperwork really benefit society as a whole? More than half of every dollar spent on "health care" goes not to medical practitioners and medical support personnel, but to cover the expense of all the paperwork our chaotic current system requires.

While huge numbers of moderately-well-paid (and adequately insured) drones are spinning their wheels to operate our many bureaucracies (both governmental and private-sector), large numbers of other human beings are doing without ~ without health care, without adequate income, etc., etc. Somehow, it seems to me, a society where more people were engaged in productive real-world activities, rather than manipulating needlessly complicated paperwork, would be a society better able to provide meaningful work and adequate earnings to all its members.

I agree with much of the "conservative" party line that opposes governmental red tape, but strongly disagree that private business is always automatically free of the same kind of wastefulness, and I also disagree with the right-wing dogma that all public-sector activities are ipso facto inefficient. In fact, the US government provides the most efficient use of dollars for health care; more cents of every dollar spent by Medicare/Medicaid goes to medical providers (and less to "administration") than monies dispersed by any other payment method ~ including, oddly enough, cash!

Subject: RE: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From: kendall
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 07:19 PM

.. I learned that Newt Gingrich has a plan for health insurance for every woman and man, it will cost far less and I'll tell you why, when you get sick you just die die die... (Tom Paxton)

Subject: RE: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From: John O'L
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 07:23 PM

I don't live in the USA, so I only read the opening post, just to find out what the good news was.

If that's the good news I'm glad for my American friends that there's no bad news.

Subject: RE: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 09:22 PM

harpy...as a couple others have noted, most hospitals do provide emergency care...which is all I claimed. But in some areas, the load is such that the treatment is slow, perfunctory, and often does not address the long-term situation.

Amos managed to enlarge on my other point in answer to SH...it is not a matter of basic care being a right, but whether it is a good idea! I am rather tired of pompous, smug folks who are doing ok and HAVE health insurance declaring that anyone who didn't 'manage' like they did must be freeloaders and lazy.
   We were without insurance for a couple of years because of exhorbitant prices and sudden changes in the job market...until we were shown a group plan we could just 'barely' afford...and it saved my wife's life! We managed to dig up the premiums for a few years by hard work and some amazing help from friends so that she could continue to be treated. Now we are both over 62 and able to relax very slightly, though the care is limited.
(I just got a bill for $99 (NON-covered)for a 10 minute follow-up LOOK at my right eye that involved only eye drops and a flashlight. I had eye treatment while I had full insurance, and had no idea what it would cost me to simply ask him if the problem I was having was serious. That $99 is a big bite out of the budget these days..)

I think the entire medical mal-practice insurance rules need to be totally re-done, so that rates can be reduced and marginally profitable medical practices can be revived.

This situation today is just widening the gap further between the haves and have-nots...and a lot of the "haves" simply don't care what happens to those below the line.

Subject: RE: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 09:30 PM

Great news, hub!!!

36,000,000 folks without health insurance...

Make me all warm and fuzzy...

Meanwhile suckers like me and my wife pay $861 a month (with a $2000 deductible *each*) for a policy that can be cancelled, ahhhh, if we get sick?!!!!?!?!??!??!?!?!??!??....

Go stick yer nose back up Boss Hog's butt and quit defending rich people who pray on the working class...

This is the absolute worse thread you have ever started and when the revolution comes, and it will if you and yer buddies keep sqeezing the workinf man, I hope that one of my brothers or sisters makes a call to you house...

People like you really suck!!!

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From: harpgirl
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 09:36 PM

Yes, Carol, I agree with you. We should also have free access to prescription medications from any market in the world. I thought we were in a "free market" capitalist economy. All the medicare clients I see (and there are a bunch) have medications they can not pay for or must skip certain months or forgo altogether, because they can't afford drugs when they make 550 a month on disability and can barely keep themselves in gas, apartment rent, and food.

Most have friends who look after them and they work under the table. I am constantly looking for sources for medications. We use all sorts of programs such as VR, Center for Independent Living, Easter Seals, and drug company programs for the indigent.

Health care in the United States is a nightmare for the poor. And try being an indigent aids patient in a small town like Tallahassee. Aids patients move away from here because the services are so spotty. We didn't even have a doctor that specialized in aids related infectious diseases for two years when the major one got burned out and left town.   If you are a medipass patient youu might get twothirds of the antivirals you need in any given month.

signed,
disgusted and outraged harpgirl


(New sources of info for patients are welcome folks. )

Subject: RE: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 10:34 PM

Harpgirl, since you ask...

I worked for the VA for over 25 years and I use the VA almost exclusively for my health care. And, BTW, my past employment gets me no priorities or special treatment...I wait like anyone else. I do have health insurance (which I pay for, of course), and the VA bills Blue Cross at the Medicare rate. The care is excellent, and all I pay is a $7 copay for a month's worth of medication. This cost is so low because the VA (and the military) are allowed to negotiate for lower prices with drug companies, something that Medicare/Medicaid are forbidden to do by law (thanks, George).

There are issues with the VA, of course. Some places it takes a long time to be seen for a regular appointment, especially for the first time, and not all VAs have the full range of services. However, most VA hospitals do have an Urgent Care/Emergency Room that takes walk-ins. Clinics are more restricted...the VA Outpatient Clinic there in Tallahassee "belongs" to the hospital in Gainsville, and many servise would only be available there. Many veterans stay away from the VA because of the bad reputation it had (and often deserved) 30 years ago, but this is rarely true anymore. I'd suggest that you at least ask your clients if they have VA eligibility (and any honorably-discharged vet living on Social Security-only is eligible) and get them on the Clinic's waiting list.

Subject: RE: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 10:44 PM

It's also a nightmare fir every one else... except for the ruling class....

I figured it out an' I am now payin' over 30% of my income for a health care policy that can be cancelled it either I or my wife get sick?!!!!!??!??!??!?!??......

This is totally unacceptable but with Hubby's buddies *ruling*, not governing the country, Boss Hog is havin' a field day...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From: harpgirl
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 10:46 PM

thanks for the reminder, mr scary eyebrows!!! LOL Our local VA does have lots of good medical personnel, some of whom I am well-acquainted with and we are lucky to have this resource!

Subject: RE: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From: DougR
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 01:39 AM

"No one is entitled," Martin? How cruel of you to think so. Didn't you know that the Constitution guaranteed EVERYONE health insurance? Study, Martin, study! :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From: Boab
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 02:11 AM

Susu's Hubby's trumpet blared forth "the number of uninsured Americans has been underestimated" and then he blunders onward trying to prove the exact opposite!?!?
   And just a mention of personal preference in regard to U.S. hospital treatment as compared to that in Canada. Driving north from Mexico thro' northern California,within sight of Mount Shasta, I discovered that was the probable victim of deep-vein thrombosis. I took a life-threatening risk [call me an idiot if it gives you glee---]and made all speed north to the ferry at Tsawassen, and made a beeline for the nearest Canadian hospital, where I spent one day intensive care, and six in recovery. The direct financial cost to me was nil. A foolish risk, perhaps, but it paid off, and I still had my life savings!

Subject: RE: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 02:28 AM

Jaysus, its threads like this that confront me with the reality that the USA is really a very foreign land, despite the close proximity and common language.......

Subject: RE: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From: Barry Finn
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 03:18 AM

Hospitals are required to treat emergencies but only as long as it'll take them to stabilize the one who needs treatment, then they are permitted to pack them up & piss on their graves. My sister used to work at Boston City Hospital, that's where the poor folk go, the equipment was out dated & constantly being jury rigged. The numbers of mix ups that should've evolved care caused deaths but you probably couldn't find better staff when it comes to gun shot victims. This is where you'd be taken to in cases of emergencies unless you hhad a car & could drive yourself to some other ER (at least it was when I lived there). Now COBRA of course is the fail safe system that those who received health insurance through their employer won't lose health insurance when they are no longer employed, great system it costs any where from $1,000 -2,000 per month for a family of 4 depending upon what type of coverage you want/need. After being discharged from the hospital I was amazed to find that some the reports focused on wither or not I had a family with a support system in place, that I was well dressed & well nourished, seemed to be intelligent, I that I was gainfully employed & that I had insurance that would cover the costs. How many of these things mattered when it came down to wither or not I qualified for treatment & if they would allow me live or die. How many people die because they may be poor & can't afford insurance or afford decent clothes or may not have been able to pay the high costs of better education or to be well fed. I guess that would not only leave out the large segment of the poorer population but also many of the lower middle class & if many of today's middle class thinks that their not just one or two steps in front of the homeless think about it again. You lose your job & you may be six months to a year without employment under COBRA you shell out $1,000 a month for insurance which one of your kids needs constant medication & routinely has to be seen by their primary physician. So you collect unemployment for awhile which doesn't do much more than feed your family so now you're worrying about the rent or the mortgage & you for go your own medication because you need to be able to cover your kid's co-payment make sure they eat well & some how keep a roof over their heads & clothes on their back. The hell with trying to pay for them to receive a good education you're main worry is keeping them alive, then fed & healthy, then clothed, then keeping them sheltered all the while keeping the wolf away from your door. OH SHIT, my spouse just lost their part time job. Ask Tom Delay how much his health insurance costs & how much it costs him out of pocket for medical expenses & who foots his bill for all this if not the working stiff. It might not look all that fair when you think of all those who worked all their life to pay for Tom's good health & can't afford to care for themselves.


Aren't WE THE PEOPLE his employer, isn't he working for US? He must be employed by the people because aren't the people paying for all his benefits. It's about the time the people give him & his kind an Enron Anemia & a cardboard box for shelter.


Our health system sucks unless you make enough that you can afford to pay for it, in which case most likely you receive it at no charge at all or for a small percentage, in proportion to what you may make. Try eating cat food for supper, your one decent meal of the day, so you can say healthy & buy your medication because you can't afford to be sick which in some cases is a death sentence.


Barry

Subject: RE: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From: dianavan
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 03:29 AM

I'm so glad I live in Canada. I can't imagine struggling with disease and medical bills at the same time. There is alot to be said for peace of mind and the ability to recover quickly. As imperfect as it is, I have to say that the medical system here has served me well.

Seems there is alot of news about waiting lists and lack of beds but on two occasions I had to use the emergency room and they got to me in less than an hour. They were quick, caring and effecient. Sure I had to manage as an outpatient and pay for a cab to and from the hospital daily but guess what, they taught me how to monitor my condition and care for myself at home. All lab tests, x-rays, drugs and medical fees were paid for by the govt. Whats wrong with that?

Why is the U.S. so afraid of universal health care?

Subject: RE: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 04:01 AM

Because universal health care would make it more difficult to exploit people.

Subject: RE: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From: Gervase
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 04:16 AM

For Pete's sake, why do you allow jerks like this to yank your chain? Of 173 postings by Susu's Hubby on this forum, only this seems to have any reference to music. The rest? A complete waste of bandwidth from a rather dim idler with too much time on his hands.

Subject: RE: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From: DougR
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 01:33 PM

Gervase: perhaps you are not aware of it, but this is not strictly a music forum. One's contribution to the music threads is not a criteria for determining whether or not one can post. Nor is it a place where only one (prevailing) point of view can be promoted.

Your reference to the poster as a "jerk" is insulting.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 01:44 PM

Hubby's link does not quite say what his opening post says. From the CBS News link hubby provided... "Congressional rules permit privately financed travel, provided the money doesn't come from a lobbyist or the representative of a foreign interest." If you go to CBS's source (PoliticalMoneyLine.com), you find a listing of politicans who have taken privately funded trips. There is no evidence, nor even allegation that the 27 people who have accepted more private travel money than Delay have accepted it from forbidden sources. Now, for number 28 Mr. Delay, there are receipts for a credit card belonging to a registered lobbyist!

Subject: RE: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From: Alice
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 01:51 PM

Every ER does not have to treat people who come to it without ability to pay. In towns like Montana, hundreds of miles distant from major public hospitals, many hospitals, like the ONLY one in our town, are privately owned. They do not provide "free" care in the ER. All treated must agree to pay for treatment and are turned over to collection agencies if they do not.

Subject: RE: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From: harpgirl
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 01:56 PM

Gervase is right!!!!!! I'm tired of these fake people. Max should put a stop to it.

Subject: RE: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From:
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 02:09 PM

My gawd, there are some short-sighted, self-centered people here!

In most mature, civilized countries, taxes are fairly high, but you get a lot for them. Utilities and good public transportation, for example, and a guarantee that no one, including the elderly, will live in poverty. And free health care. But taxes (including all these services) are nowhere near what most people in the United States have to pay in monthly health insurance premiums alone.   Unless their employer picks it up, in which case, take-home pay is reduced by a commensurate amount, so the employee is still paying for it.

I think that people such as Hubby and Martin Gibson and DougR think they smell "socialism" in the air (Oh, Horrors!!). Well, take a good look. In countries that do have what you would probably regard as socialism, people tend to be happy and healthy, are less driven by the typical American combination of the need to acquire more "stuff" along with a nagging feeling of anxiety, and generally enjoy life a lot more than most Americans do. It's a little thing called "a feeling of security," that comes from knowing that even if the wolf is at the door, it can't get in.   

Now, really, guys, what's so evil and horrible about that! Eh? Tell me! What!??

I might remind our more conservative brethren that providing for the general welfare is something that's mandated in the Constitution:

The preamble to the Constitution states:

"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." [Emphasis mine, just in case you missed it.]

Article 1, Section 8 states:

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; [Here, too.]

I wonder what tune Hubby, Marty, and Doug would sing if they were among the 39,000,000 American citizens (assuming Hubby's figures are right, about which there seems to be some dispute, but even so, that's a helluva lot of people!) who couldn't afford health care insurance and suddenly found themselves, or a member of their family, with a catastrophic illness or injury. It does happen. And when you least expect it.

When asked for a contribution to help the poor, hungry, and downtrodden, Ebenezer Scrooge responded, "Perhaps they should die, and thus decrease the surplus population!"

Well, that is a solution, of course. And some folks seem to think that's just peachy.

Taxes are the dues you pay for living in a civilized country.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 03:24 PM

if taxes were fairly pegged high enough to do the necessary stuff, we...(ALL of us) would learn to live with them and adjust their lifestyle accordingly, and the rich would still be rich,,,,but the poor would not be on the edge of disaster constantly.

Subject: RE: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From:
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 05:04 PM

And there it is, boys and girls! "If you don't like it here, why don't you go someplace else?" And he calls me a "socialist." Dismisss it by slapping a label on it!

I am dazzled by the brilliance of Marty's refutation!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From: gnu
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 05:35 PM

MG... "Bobert, I pay $190 a month for a great HMO plan through my employer with the largest provider in the country."

I thought you were an independant, famous, well off, folk and/or blues muscian, with more talent in your little finger than... Now, where did I get that idea from?

Subject: RE: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 05:43 PM

Bobert, I'll hold MG for you and let you at 'im. Then we can see how well his health insurance holds up.

Meanwhile, I was in error when I referred to my government going on a red herring hunt over medicare costs, I obviously meant social security.

Subject: RE: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From: Once Famous
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 05:47 PM

Never said that, gnu. I do play country, bluegrass, and some folk professionally and always have. Have a following, also. I play some solo stuff and play banjo in a group. But I am intent on making good use of my good education, have worked the last 20 years for an NYSE corporation making good bucks so I can send my kids to college for a good education also.

does that trouble you? I love my American dream. wish everyone here could live there's, but alas, many stepped on their own dick or couldn't see past the dope.

Subject: RE: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From: gnu
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 06:02 PM

Nope. Can't understand why it would or why you would ask that question. Anyway, I sinserely hope yer kids get thereselves a gud edukation to. Expeshally in speling and grammer. Just a suggestion: don't help them with their homework.

Subject: RE: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From: frogprince
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 06:35 PM

Don, when a monkey throws poo, it just doesn't mean anything. Just walk away from the cage.

Subject: RE: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From: jpk
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 06:37 PM

on health insurance,to hell with it.me and my wife had it,she passed on,and the damn bills and lawers still managed to put me and mine in the poor house.the company plan was suposed to be one of the best,till you read the itty-bitty print about what they don't pay.

Subject: RE: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From: jpk
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 06:39 PM

sorry, i misspelled lawyers

Subject: RE: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From: frogprince
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 06:45 PM

Now who wants to line up and tell jpk that it's all his own fault, and he has no right to "whine"? There is so much wealth in this country that there is simply no need for anything like this; it could be prevented without inflicting any real hardship on anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: The news is getting better and better!
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 06:50 PM

Martin...why is it so hard to comprehend that $190 a month is the EXCEPTION? How do you think an employee of McDonalds is gonna get that kind of deal?

It's fascinating...you make a good salary and thus get a LOWER rate than those who make minumum wage because your company subsidizes part of your health insurance. Then you ridicule those who don't have such a sweet deal. There are many, many reasons for not being in a position to afford (or be handed) decent, affordable insurance...and being dumb and/or lazy is not the most common!

You just go on & on being a total jerk ...and revel in the notoriety! I cannot begin to comprehend what puts that kind of attitude in anyone's head.