BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 12:40 PM

Why couldn't there have been dragons in China? Komodo dragons aren't that far away and they found the bones of really, really small elephants and people, not that far away on other islands. Komodos could have been really, really big when they were on the mainland, just like the elephants.

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 12:17 PM

Amos, do you think regarding the behemoth that, "his tail stiffens like a cedar" could be a referring to an elephant's penis.

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....
From: GUEST,Amos
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 12:04 PM

Religous impulses -- the quest for insight into the wider framework we seem to sense at play but have no genuine words for -- is not the problem.

Embedding fixed ideas and antiquated superstitions into people's minds as an "answer" backed with great authority or great peer pressure is very much the problem.

Fixed ideas are the downfall of the species. They are the antithesis of clear-eyed curiousity and intelligent exploration in all spheres, whether physical or metaphysical.

The notion that the infinite force of consciousness which is said to have brought all existence into play, from quasars and clusters to quarks and bosons is, at one and the same time, curiously fascinated by the garments chosen by women in Afghanistan or what little children do with their peepees in Ohio, is patently ridickledockle.

A

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 11:57 AM

The hedgehogs died out because they needed a symbiotic relationship with angry British gardeners and there weren't any.

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 11:54 AM

But maybe they were mammoths who wandered down from Siberia for a look see. My husband maintains the behemoths were giant hedgehogs.

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 11:50 AM

Well DaveO, I just thought that the elephants might have been a friend of the hippopotamus that lived in the reeds.

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....
From: GUEST,JH
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 11:12 AM

Do you mean to say that science does not modify previously held (and up to that point, workable) theory when new evidence comes to light?

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 11:09 AM

Every time Science reveals something that further highlights the absurdity of a previously held and workable scientific theory, Science moves the goal posts in order to accomodate it. (John Hardly)

Complete nonsense, John. Why do you always try in this and similar threads to discuss how science works. You each time again only display a profound ignorance.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 09:54 AM

Velikovsky made a career of searching ancient texts for cosmological events that shared a common time frame. I might take another look to see if he mentions any common dinosaur lore from divergent ancient sources. I think he was big on the dragon - comet connection though.

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 09:48 AM

" But it doesn't blanket the entire world of Scriptural interpretation and scholarship.

Just because I can't make my way through a Calculus textbook does not diminish the textbook, nor the scholarship that went into it's printing. "

............
Great rhetoric John. It would probably get cheers from a religious audience. It sounds much better than saying man's stupidity is the problem - not the word of god. And it is an excuse that works for some.

Indeed ignorance is no excuse. Yet it exists. Dwelling upon words such as Never and Always and All and other 'Blanket' statements does divide rather than unite understanding. The great hate of religion that you speak of is also a polemic divider. Yet it too exists.

Still if you really want to compare a math book with scripture one should consider that the math book does not impel people to give up understading and simply accept a mistake or; the illogical, absurd, misprint, trite and opioniated interpretations as truth that one must accept on faith.

I suppose what I hate (with a small h) is the western religious attempt to explain the "great unknowable" as a set of proposterous teachings that must be accepted on faith. Lose that faith and you are bad. Accept and pay for that faith and you are good.

As in the teachings of the venerable and wise Penn and Teller ;) , thats just bullshit.

.........

Uncle Dave , Aw comon, dragons don't look like dinosaurs to you ;)

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 09:47 AM

The behemoth was a moth.

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....
From: John Hardly
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 09:38 AM

Not all that weird, Dave. It does raise interesting questions to inquisitive minds. That we would want to discuss this and not, say, yet another thread on farts or Shatner isn't all that weird.

And sure, maybe there are not ancient texts that talk of contemporary dinosaurs. But even that doesn't HAVE to lead to your dogmatic conclusion. I mean, even you would agree that another HUGE factor in the issue is that written word itself is not all that old -- mere thousands of years...

...and of the written word that was thousands of years old, even it is rare because of the materials on which it was written and the conditions in which it was kept (or not kept).

But arrogant dismissiveness can be charming too!

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 09:28 AM

Look all you want to in the most ancient texts you can unearth. Not only will you not find direct contemporary references to dinosaurs, but you will not find any folkloric ancestral recollections of them.

Why would I say that so baldly? Because the existence of dinos and the existence of man just don't overlap by millions of years, from all evidence I've ever heard of.

This whole thread was started, at least as I read the initial post, as a sort of joke, with a big tongue in cheek, but for some reason people have chosen to treat it as a real question. Weird!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....
From: John Hardly
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 09:07 AM

BTW, I would be for looking into ANY ancient text for mention of dinosaurs. I think it might be quite interesting.

And just because I might conclude something different about agreement in ancient texts doesn't mean I don't find that agreement fascinating as well.

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 09:05 AM

Donuel (over)stated:

The Chinese Dragon is clearly dinosaur lore although some call it symbolic of comet or asteroid forbodings.

Aww, come on! Clearly? A speculation, at best.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....
From: John Hardly
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 09:04 AM

"but the Jesuit argument pertains to the intelligent subjugating the ignorant (enlightened vs. the gullible) via the ever changable biblical "word" transcribed by man and selectively repeated by men.

Sure, we've all seen it done. But it doesn't blanket the entire world of Scriptural interpretation and scholarship.

Just because I can't make my way through a Calculus textbook does not diminish the textbook, nor the scholarship that went into it's printing.

One could take the calculus book and taking advantage of my inability to understand higher math, mislead me using the textbook -- but that wouldn't lead one to conclude that that is or was the MAIN function of the calculus textbook.

Yet, people love to have their great hate of religion reconfirmed by the extrapolation that, because some have misinterpreted and misused Scripture, then all do.

"Perhaps we should look to the Egyptians or the Zep Tepi for mention of dinosaur lore since scholars like Joseph Campbell have shown us that the Torah and Bible are at their very foundations variations on a theme of the Pharoic Egyptian religion."

I've heard this kind of thing all the time. You are completely confident that Campbell is not guilty of the kind of scholarship that you are positive that the other religious scholars do.

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 09:04 AM

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/dragon3_copy.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 09:02 AM

GUEST 2:54 a.m. said, in part:

behemoths could have been now extinct elephants that liked to lie under extinct cedars and other big trees around the Dead Sea.

Is there any archaeological evidence that there were any such animals in that area in the relevant time period? I don't happen to be aware of it, if so.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 08:49 AM

The religious are in no more practical agreement with each other than they are with the atheist

fair enough

but the Jesuit argument pertains to the intelligent subjugating the ignorant (enlightened vs. the gullible) via the ever changable biblical "word" transcribed by man and selectively repeated by men.

Perhaps we should look to the Egyptians or the Zep Tepi for mention of dinosaur lore since scholars like Joseph Campbell have shown us that the Torah and Bible are at their very foundations variations on a theme of the Pharoic Egyptian religion.

The Chinese Dragon is clearly dinosaur lore although some call it symbolic of comet or asteroid forbodings.

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 03:13 AM

Suuuuuuuure they did guest.

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 02:54 AM

Hanibal had elephants....behemoths could have been now extinct elephants that liked to lie under extinct cedars and other big trees around the Dead Sea.

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....
From: John Hardly
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 06:48 PM

gnu,

I don't agree with your "Jesuit scholar".

I'm not sure I understand the "lifestyle of the intelligent" bit (not intelligent enough I suppose). But I don't think that the religious are any more duped than the unreligious. Furthermore, the religious are just as likely as the atheists to call the Jim Jones's of the world into question.

It's no more fair or logical to describe "the religious" as followers of Jim Jones than it is to compare "the atheists" to Stalin. The religious are in no more practical agreement with each other than they are with the atheist. They may find common ground when unfairly attacked as a single entity (for instance, if religious freedom is threatened they may find more reason to fight together, even though they don't agree in principle on any religious tenet), but they are not a single entity.

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....
From: gnu
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 05:18 PM

God is the lifestyle of the intelligent and the lottery of the ignorant. Both serve their purpose and bring prosperity and solace in their own way. And, that's a good thing. Keeps a lot of nere-do-wells off the street, on both sides. In the end, the values inherent in the true teachings of God are true. Even atheists would agree in principle, with exceptions.

Re such exceptions, first and foremost, I met a Jesuit scholar who explained to me that the Bible was written to allow manipulation of the ignorant by the intelligent. A simple example : "Turn the other cheek." versus "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth." There are many others, but you get the gist. And that's a good thing, as long as there are atheists to protect the ignorant, because, as Amos and others have pointed out, those who choose logic and rational thinking over deity are not bound by the constraints of religion. Thank Man for the the choice. I would hate to live on a flat earth... I am scared of heights. And, I would hate to see Jim Baker fuck over another bunch of lottery losers.

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 04:56 PM

No, I'm not.

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 04:37 PM

THE CONFUSION OVER DINOS IN THE BIBLE REVEALED

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/darlost.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....
From: John Hardly
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 04:30 PM

"A perfect example of it in action. Thanks."

Are you disagreeing with me and trying to contend that science does not correct itself when scientific method proves previous theory to be inadequate?

...or are you trying to have it both ways...

that the religious are in the dark ages of ignorance if they disregard science...

...but "moving the goal posts" if they acknowledge and accomodate to it?

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....
From: GUEST,Uncle DaveO
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 03:07 PM

While it is a fact that I'm an atheist, I have to say that the concept of Intelligent Design is not NECESSARILY in conflict with scientific ideas.

If there's a god who/which designed and created (is creating?) and runs the world, there's no reason he can't progress by methods which we would perceive by scientific inquiry. I think it reasonable to say that such a god would have some means to go about his(?) its(?) her(?) construction process. Those means could well be what we perceive as the laws of nature.

This point of view I suppose posits a quite different view of who/what that god is (if at all) from what is traditional, of course.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....
From: Pied Piper
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 02:59 PM

Thanks for pointing out my error Stigweard, of cause it should have been "180 Thousand years"

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 02:52 PM

A perfect example of it in action. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....
From: John Hardly
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 02:48 PM

Every time Science reveals something that further highlights the absurdity of a previously held and workable scientific theory, Science moves the goal posts in order to accomodate it.

'twas ever thus and it always will be. That's how science works and that's how the intelligent religious will respond.

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 02:35 PM

Religion itself is a good example of evolution in action. Every time Science reveals something that further highlights the absurdity of Creationism, Religion moves the goal posts in order to accomodate it.

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 02:27 PM

Here are the entire verses about the Behemoth from the KJV:

15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee;
         he eateth grass as an ox.

16 Lo now, his strength is in his loins,
         and his force is in the navel of his belly.

17 He moveth his tail like a cedar:
         the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.

18 His bones are as strong pieces of brass;
         his bones are like bars of iron.

19 He is the chief of the ways of God:
       he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him.

20 Surely the mountains bring him forth food,
         where all the beasts of the field play.

21 He lieth under the shady trees,
         in the covert of the reed, and fens.

22 The shady trees cover him with their shadow;
         the willows of the brook compass him about.

23 Behold, he drinketh up a river, and hasteth not:
         he trusteth that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth.

24 He taketh it with his eyes:
         his nose pierceth through snares.

16 might be better rendered "Lo now, his strength is in his loins,
and his virility in the muscles of his belly."

17 "His tail stiffens as a cedar:
the sinews of his thighs [or testicles] are tangled [or wrapped] together."

20 "The beasts of the mountains raise their voices unto him,
and all the beasts of the field play there." All creatures worship him, due to his might.

21 "He is shaded by the lotus,
the reeds surround him." This is a Nilotic refference.

22 "Behold, he reiveth up a river [or the level sinks] and panics not:
he worries not when Jordan flows into his mouth." It is not absolutely clear the exact meaning of the first part, but it's clear that he is not frightened by the movement of water.

23 "He [the hunter] taketh it with his eyes:
his [the Behemoth] nose is pierced by snares." Hunting refference, it is either strait, or rhetorical.

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 01:54 PM

The Bible is not ment to be a scientific textbook, that is missing the point entirely.
Hippos were THE symbol of brute strength, plenty of evidence for that.
BTW, I read the Bible in Hebrew, no need for a middle man, so yes, there are a lot of translation problems in English.

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....
From: John Hardly
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 12:58 PM

Intelligent design does not preclude adaptation (in fact, embraces it) and evolution does not require it.

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....
From: Leadfingers
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 12:57 PM

What is wrong wit the point of view that 'God created the world in seven days' is simply compressing the various pre historic periods into a scale that was halfway understandable to the people who DIDNT have the advantage of ANY formal education , other than what the priest told them in Church on Sunday ?

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 12:48 PM

"Intelligent Design"

an oxymoron if I ever heard one. given "Intelligent Design", the horse would not possess a caecum, but rather a rumen. nor would they have those vestigial bony splinters just above the hooves.

Given "Intelligent Design" humans would not have a vermiform appendix - and the spine would be completly different.

And the elephant? Platypus? Avacado? ""Intelligent"?

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....
From: Amos
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 12:38 PM

I am sorry, but the notion of fawning over a 3,000 year old book of morals, tribal misgivings, half-distorted histories and family tales and electing it as a source-book for stable scientific information is about as ridiculous as taking your ethical insights from Sesame Street or learning vocabulary from South Park or Homer Simpson. Don't have a cow, man!

A

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....
From: GUEST,John Hardly
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 12:37 PM

"Creationism" has moved on considerably. Just as evolution has "evolved" in its focus, postulations and beliefs, so "Creationism" has given way to "Intelligent Design".

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 12:21 PM

and for some reason or other they don't want to believe that a behemoth could be an elephant.

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....
From: Stu
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 12:18 PM

PP

"modern human beings some time around 180 Million years ago."

Shurley shome mishtake? That puts the appearance of modern humans smack in the middle of the Jurassic. Plenty of big dino's about then :)

130,000 years ago is more like it!

You're right about Creationist theory though. A stroll down the grimy city street of ignorance that is.

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....
From: Pied Piper
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 11:35 AM

Of cause there are no Dinosaurs in the Bible, no one new they existed until relatively recently.
The Universe is 13(ish) Billion years old, the Earth 4.2 (much less ish) life appeared at least 3.5 Billion years ago and modern human beings some time around 180 Million years ago.
People who believes the Folk tails in the Bible are actual historical fact, are incapable of or un-willing to, accept the overwhelming evidence contradicting them.
They prefer a nice warm patch of sand to berry their heads in rather than face reality.
This kind of gutless self indulgence is all to common in religious people

PP

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 11:17 AM

Perhaps, but that's the role of the hippo in the Biblical world.

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 11:12 AM

could the bohemoth be a rhino? If I remember correctly a rhino tail would be more visible then would that of a hippo - and the images would be more appropriate I think.

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 11:08 AM

If you have a serious interest in the Bible as literature, read this

101 Myths of the Bible: How Ancient Scribes Invented Biblical History -- by Gary Greenberg; Paperback

I checked it out of my public library and found it fascinating.

For example, the book described two Egyptian gods, Tohu and Bohu, who personified conflict. Imagine my feelings when a few weeks later I saw a notice in the Parisian underground which referred (in French) to the tohu-bohu of travelling on the underground!

Where Genesis says in English that "the earth was void and without form," the original says that it was "tohu-bohu."

Amazing the way words and ideas persist.
------
As for arguments about evolution, keep in mind that attacking evolution is a clever way for fundamentalists to get publicity and to drag religion into a realm where it does not belong - i.e., the selection of school boards.

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 10:59 AM

I am saying that hippos had a semi-mythical status as beasts of power and might. All the descriptions in there are to emphasize that.
Frankly I don't see how it's really tortured when it had that staus in the folklore of the region.

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 10:49 AM

if it was an elephant, you'd think that someone would note it's odd practice of shoving grass up it's own ass, though.

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....
From: John Hardly
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 10:43 AM

What is "semi-mythical"? You mean that a hippo (your assertion, not mine) is mythical? So now you're saying that he's not describing a hippo, but rather, some semi-mythical beast?

What is semi-mythical? Would that be a Unicorn as built by Peterbilt?

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 10:35 AM

and I'm sure the bible mentions birds and everyone should know by now that dinosaurs were just really really big birds.....the impression of their feathers are fossilized in silt in China and maybe the behemoth was just a vegetarian komodo dragon that got drowned in the flood like the unicorn.

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the Bible? wtf....
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 10:34 AM

Actualy, YOU are the one making the assumption that the tail is huge.
Also he does not dwell so much on the tail as on the power of the beast.
Aren't their tails short and fat, and can become stiff?
You should remeber it's semi-mythical too.
Another theory has tail as euphemism for penis.

Subject: RE: BS: No Dinos in the bible? wtf....
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 10:27 AM

well... perhaps the behemoth could have been an elephant and they couldn't figure out the front end from the back end, elephants eat grass.