Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Sep 23 - 02:36 AM

might and might not

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament
From: Lighter
Date: 13 Sep 23 - 11:05 AM

FWIW, Britain also opposed Spain in most of the Coalition Wars (1792-1815), which might also have provided impetus for the ballad.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 13 Sep 23 - 04:44 AM

So lloyd is not the only scholar to make a mistake., whether the mistake was deliberate or accidental we do not know,
a misprint also creates confusion in this case, it is not moneymore

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament
From: Lighter
Date: 12 Sep 23 - 09:25 AM

Kennedy must have known that Britain supported the Spanish king in the Peninsular War, making it a considerable blunder to drop a song about fighting the King of Spain in the 1830s into the context of 1817 or so.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 12 Sep 23 - 08:18 AM

Given its provenance - Colm O'Lochlainn used Kennedy extensively, the setting and the wording, The most likely background is that of the First Carlist War and the George De Lacey-Evans Expedition. I've discussed this with the prominent Wexford singer and researcher, Paddy Berry over the last several years.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 12 Sep 23 - 02:30 AM

The UK was fighting the king of Spain,which is what the song is about

If your mean at some other time, eg 1817 to 18, your post is not very clear, as you then make a reference to the song.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament
From: Lighter
Date: 11 Sep 23 - 07:49 PM

Please read my "scholarship" more carefully.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 11 Sep 23 - 03:29 PM

When King Ferdinand VII of Spain died in 1833, his widow, Queen Maria Cristina, became regent on behalf of their two-year-old daughter Queen IsabellA

lighter
you are wrong the uk was not supporting the king of spain your scholarship is wrong      ,there is no 'of course.

The British Auxiliary Legion in the First Carlist War, 1835–8
Edward M. Brett
Hardback €49.50
Catalogue Price: €55.00
ISBN: 1-85182-915-6
May 2005. 208pp; ills.

The two Carlist wars are probably the least remembered, outside Spain, of the civil conflicts of the country. In the first of these, as in 1936, foreign volunteers fought on both sides, among them the 10,000 men of the British Auxiliary Legion, an arm of Palmerston's foreign policy supporting the liberal Cristino cause and the young Queen Isabella II against her uncle, Don Carlos, pretender to the throne. With the Foreign Enlistment Act suspended in 1835, troops were recruited in Britain and Ireland to fight in a savage struggle. Ill-paid, poorly supplied and inadequately accommodated in appalling weather, the Legion suffered heavy mortality from typhus, yet fought bravely in battle, contributing to an eventual Cristino victory. Ireland played a prominent role in the Legion with four designated Irish regiments and many more men serving in other units.

The involvement of an O'Connell ancestor, a young Irish doctor from Co. Limerick, in the First Carlist War, sparked Dr Brett's interest. His own semi-retirement from medicine has allowed him to pursue the subject in greater detail.
The British Auxiliary Legion in the First Carlist War, 1835–8
Reviews
I have researched this song BEFORE I SANG IT

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament
From: Lighter
Date: 11 Sep 23 - 03:06 PM

Kennedy places the song in 1817-18.

If correct, that would make it a relic of the Peninsular War.

Of curse, the UK was supporting, not fighting the "King of Spain" at that time, but the reference in the song might just be meant to suggest the speaker's provincial naivete'. Historically, the King of Spain would more likely be an adversary than an ally.

As usual, there's no proof either way. (Oxford shows the word "peeler" to have been in use by 1816 in reference to the Royal Irish Constabulary.)

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 11 Sep 23 - 01:54 PM

Moneyhore Townland, Co. Wexford
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=9Jzy_JxrSfo

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 11 Sep 23 - 01:46 PM

The song is generally reckoned tp be from co Wexford, Carlist War of 1833–39?

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament
From: Lighter
Date: 11 Sep 23 - 12:40 PM

Nice find, Gabriel.

The song appeared a little earlier in Kennedy's article "Irish Harvest Homes and Their Minstrelsy Fifty Years Since," in the Dublin University Magazine (Dec., 1863).

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament
From: GUEST,Gabriel
Date: 11 Sep 23 - 11:35 AM

As above (from me, Gabriel Scally) the lyrics as given in the earliest recognised text that I have located, are as follows:

O who will plough the field, or who will sell the corn?
O who will wash the sheep, an' have 'em nicely shorn?
The stack that's on the haggard, unthrashed it may remain
Since Johnny went a-thrashing the dirty King o’ Spain

The girls from the bawnoge in sorrow may retire
And the piper and his bellows may go home and blow the fire
For Johnny, lovely Johnny, is sailin’ o'er the main
Along with other pathriarchs, to fight the King o' Spain

The boys will sorely miss him when Moneyhore comes round
And grieve that their bould captain is nowhere to be found
The peelers must stand idle against their will and grain
For the valiant boy who gave them work now peels the King o' Spain

At wakes and hurling matches your like we'll never see
Till you come back again to us a-stóir grádh geal mo-chroídhe
And won't you throunce the buckeens that shows us much disdain
Bekase our eyes are not as black as those you'll meet in Spain

If cruel fate will not permit our Johnny to return
His heavy loss we Bantry girls will never cease to mourn
We'll resign ourselves to our sad lot, and die in grief and pain
Since Johnny died for Ireland's pride in the foreign land o’ Spain

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 23 - 11:22 AM

The song is from North County Wexford. The Barony of Bantry, in the County of Wexford was in place as far back as 1672.
Moneyhore is a townland in the Barony of Bantry and was the home of Thomas Cloney, one of the leaders of the 1798 rebellion.
Lewis's Topographical Dictionary of Ireland, 1837 identifies Moneyhore as a place where cattle fairs 'are held at Moneyhore on the 25th of Feb., March, and May, on Oct. 2nd, and Dec. 7th; four of these are held by patent, for which a fee of 15s. per ann. is paid to the Crown by Mr. Wm. Condon, of Dublin.' Faction fighting and at least one death, are reported as occurring at the fairs.
The first printed version of the song is in a readily available book by Patrick Kennedy titled 'The Banks of the Boro : a chronicle of the County of Wexford'. According to the author, the book relates events that took place in 1817/18. One of the characters in the book sings the song. The manuscript of the book, again according to the author's preface, was completed in 1856. The book appears to have been published in 1869.
The words of the song have been altered a little along the way. This includes the modernisation of archaic words such as 'pathriarchs ' and 'bekase'. (Personally, I prefer to sing the song in as original a version as is available, and I like the selling of the corn and the washing of the sheep).
I agree with Dave Rowlands, who is a considerable expert in military history, about the origins of the song being in the Carlist war period (see above). This is obviously after the 1817/18 period that Kennedy states he is relating. More likely, Kennedy heard the song, or possibly even wrote the song, much closer to 1856 when he claims to have completed the manuscript. The 'dirty King of Spain' is a fairly clear reference to the 'Carlist pretender' to the throne, as opposed to the Spanish Queen.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Nov 18 - 02:44 PM

anyone know the meaning of the line
And once you trounce the buckeens
That show us much dis[G]dain
Be[C]cause our eyes are not as bright
As those you'll [G]find in [C]Spain

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Nov 18 - 05:03 AM

i love the line about the pper lighting the fire with his bellows

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament
From: Gutcher
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 05:03 AM

S.R.Crocket wrote an historical novel about the war mentioned in the last post.

I must dig out my copy and check out the Irish/Scots references.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament
From: GUEST,David Rowlands
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 05:38 AM

I believe that this song dates from the 1st Carlist War, a civil war in Spain (1833 to 1839), fought between supporters of the regent, Maria Christina, acting for Queen Isabella II of Spain, and those of the late king's brother, Carlos de Borbón. The Carlists supported return to an absolute monarchy.
The British Auxiliary Legion was raised and sent to Spain to support the Liberals and Queen Isabella against the Carlists (headed by 'the King of Spain'). It was raised mainly in the ports and cities of Britain and Ireland in 1835 and fought in the Basque territory in north-eastern Spain. The Legion was funded and the soldiers paid by the Spanish crown. In the summer of 1836 a force of 10,000 men under the command of General Sir George De Lacy Evans had assembled in San Sebastian. They fought near Hernani and Vittoria. The fighting was savage; no quarter was given. A former soldier wrote that to fall into the enemy's hands was certainly a tortured death. The volunteers signed up for 2 years service and a great many were Irishmen.
One of the Legion's two cavalry regiments was titled:
       2nd Queen's Own Irish Lancers – (predominantly Irishmen).
The Legion's ten battalions of infantry were organised into "English", "Scottish" and "Irish" brigades.
       1st English Battalion
       2nd English Battalion
       3rd Westminster Grenadiers – English
       4th Queen's Own Fusiliers – English
       5th Scotch – Scottish
       6th Scotch Grenadiers – Scottish
       7th Irish Light Infantry – Irish
       8th Highlanders – Scottish
       9th Irish Grenadiers – Irish
       10th Munster Light Infantry – Irish

The 7th Irish Light Infantry, 9th Battalion (Irish Grenadiers) and 10th battalion (Munster Light Infantry) were brigaded together under Brigadier-General Charles Shaw, a veteran of 1815 and the Portuguese Civil War. The brigade quickly won a reputation for being one of the toughest units of the Legion.
After heavy casualties in action and from disease the Legion was disbanded in December 1837. A quarter of the force (some 2,500 men)died,only half of them in combat.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament
From: GUEST,Rafael del Castillo
Date: 10 Sep 17 - 04:42 AM

Is it sure that Jhonny came t fight "against" the King of Spain?. In Spain there were three Regiments formed by irish: Ultonia, Ibernia and Irlanda. They fought for Spain more r less since 1689 untill 1814. The ctholic irish were widelly admired in the spanish forces and administration.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament
From: GUEST,Obscure Ed
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 05:39 AM

The song is in The Poets and Poetry of Ireland (1881), with an introductory paragraph:
The following spirited and humorous "lament" is taken from "The Banks of tbe Boro," by Patrick Kennedy, a story which gives with remarkable faithfulness and minuteness the incidents of Irish country life. It is given with a number of other specimens of peasant poetry.

Nowadays it tends to be sung straight, but humorous elements are there to see: "dirty king"; piper blowing the fire with his bellows; valiant boy in trouble with the peelers. Some of the language might be a caricature of country style ("pathriarchs", "throunce the buckeens... bekase our eyes"). Perhaps there's also a question of why Ireland's pride was dependent on war in the foreign land of Spain.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament
From: GUEST,Obscure Ed
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 02:19 PM

I'm visiting this old page after hearing Denny Bartley's fantastic version, with Chris Sherburn on concertina. A couple of comments:

The OED says that "peeler" originally referred to the Irish constabulary; the first cited use was in 1816. So the mention of peelers does not really help us with dating.

An early appearance of the song is in the Dublin University Magazine, Dec. 1863 (archive.org). The song text (essentially the same as the one quoted above) has a few helpful footnotes: "bawnoge" is defined as "village green"; "pathriarchs" [sic] as "a substitute for _patriots_ by Johnny's loving but unlearned admirers"; "Moneyhore" as "a village between Enniscorthy and Castleboro', with the privilege of fairs". The article purports to be a description of "Irish Harvest Homes and their Minstrelsy Fifty Years Since". The same article appeared in 1867 as a chapter in Patrick Kennedy's "The Banks of the Boro: A Chronicle in the County of Wexford".

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament
From: GUEST,john dean
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 07:37 AM

If the verse with peelers is original , it might place the song after the napoleonic wars but in the "Carlist" civil war in Spain in the 1840s [?], when an unofficial "British" brigade was raised in Britain and Ireland to fight for the previous kings daughter rather than [ the pretender,] Don Carlos,
giving emphasis to "fighting the dirty king of spain ".

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament
From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 05:09 AM

On balance, I would plump for "Bawnogue" in the song being used in the general sense, rather than the specific.

The Ó Dónaill dictionary gives 13 meanings for "bán"! The 13th is "talamh bán = fallow land, lea, grass-land", so, that's in agreement with Martin's dictionary! The more common word for "field" is though, "gort".

I have never heard the word "bawnogue" used in Donegal. Is it still in use elsewhere in Ireland?

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament
From: GUEST,HughM
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 03:07 PM

Many thanks, Martin and Tim. That clears up a question which has been in my mind for ages! It seems a fairly safe bet then that the bawnogue in the song is The Bawnogue in Kilkenny.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament
From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 11:13 AM

According to Ó Dónaill's dictionary "Foclóir Gaelige-Bearla", "banchríoch" means, "Green boundary strip between fields".

According to Terence Patrick Dolan's "A Dictionary of Hiberno-English", "banóg, also bawnogue", means "a patch of green". He gives the useage example, "they were dancing on the bawnogue until the crack of dawn".

However, as well as being a general noun, it's also a specific place name. Two examples are 1. The Bawnogue, just over the Wexford border into Co. Kilkenny, a few miles east of the town of Borris. It was her that Father John Murphy ("of Boolavogue") spent 26-28 June 1798 on the run before being captured and executed a few days later.
2. Bawnogue is also the name given to an area of Clondalkin, in south west Dublin City.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament
From: MartinRyan
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 05:12 PM

"bán" also means "field". "óg" in this case is a simple diminutive, according to Dinneen's dictionary.

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament
From: GUEST,HughM
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 02:59 PM

If "ba/n" means pale or fair, and "o/g" means young, what's a ba/n-o/g or bawnogue? Surely not a patch of green ground as it says in the DT?

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament
From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim
Date: 09 Jan 06 - 06:01 AM

Moneyhore is located about 2 or 3 miles south west of Enniscorthy. On the OS map it is mispelled at "Moneyheer". This is quite common as the original OS surveyors in the 1830s and 40s were mostly non-Irish speaking (often British army officers) and took down the placenames phonetically from local people. (See Brian Friel's play "Translations").

For example: my own native place can be spelt either as Crockglass or Cruckglass. Moneyhore was the home of Thomas Cloney, one of the main Wexford rebel leaders in 1798. He survived (one of the very few)and wrote his memoirs in 1832. They are called "The Irish Rebellion: A Personal Narrative of Those Transactions in the County Wexford in Which the Author was Engaged, During the Awful Period of 1798, Interspersed with Brief Notices of the Principle Actors in That Ill-fated But Ever Memorable" [by]
Thomas Cloney. A second hand copy is currently available on ABE. The asking price is $4000.00 !!

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament
From: MARINER
Date: 08 Jan 06 - 05:53 PM

To the best of my knowledge "Bantry Girls Lament" is from Wexford.

In reference to the Wexford Baronies I would like to point out that the Barony of Bargy is not pronounced BARJEE as many non Wexfordmen, including Luke Kelly, sing it.( as in Kelly the boy from Kilanne.) but Bargee with a softer G. Hope this makes sense . Bargy Castle once home of Begnal Harvey of '98 fame was the boyhood home of Chris de Burgh .

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament
From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim
Date: 08 Jan 06 - 01:43 PM

1. From Micheál Tóibín's book "Enniscorthy; History & Heritage" (1998); "That fine ballad 'The Bantry Girls' Lament' calls to mind the celebrated fair of Moneyhore [note; his spelling is Moneyhore]...Moneyhore [again, his spelling] Mohurry, Clohamon, Scarawalsh - the passing of a century has brought an end to these village fairs and time has lent them a romantic glow which will linger on in popular memory long after the dates of the gatherings and locations of the greens are forgotten".

2. The first name of Colm O'Lochlainn (1892-1972) was in fact William. He was born in Dublin as William Gerard O'Loughlin and changed his first name to Colm when he was about 20. He also gaelicised his surname.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament
From: GUEST,tonyo
Date: 08 Jan 06 - 11:35 AM

A few points:

1. Jimmy Crowley has a couple of recorded versions of this song; from 1979 on "Camp House Ballads" 1979 with Stoker's Lodge and from 1998 on "Uncorked" solo and live. Jimmy (a Corkman) himself declares on the notes to Uncorked; "I mistook the locale for years and didn't realise there was another Bantry, in North Co. Wexford, where this love song from the Peninsular Wars comes from".

2. There is no place called Moneyhore in Wexford but there is a Moneymore.

3. O'Lochlainn's first name is/was Colm, at least according to my edition of both his collections.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament
From: ard mhacha
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 03:05 PM

Google, Kelkoo Music, Delia Murphy and you will find a CD which includes The Bantry girls lament.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 02:36 PM

Is the recording by Delia Murphy available anywhere?

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament
From: ard mhacha
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 02:25 PM

Lighter, it`s a lovely air quite unlike "The Dawning of the day", I suppose if everyone on this Thread had heard Delia Murphy`s singing of The Bantry girls lament, this would have been a shorter Thread.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 02:14 PM

Ouch ! And thanks !

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament
From: ard mhacha
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 01:10 PM

And Tim, having heard Delia`s version would you say that it in any way sounds like "The dawning of the day"?.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament
From: MartinRyan
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 12:41 PM

Lighter

The immediate source of the DT(2) version was MR - your humble servant! I don't remember offhand whether I transcribed it from a text or did it from memory - I used to sing it fairly regularly.

Several of the variants one hears of this (and other songs) probably reflect the Irish love of internal rhyming.

Regards

p.s. anyone trawled for broadsheet versions?

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament
From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim (on new pc!)
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 12:24 PM

I wonder why O'L changed "Moneyhore" to "Moneymore"? Probably a simple error, but an important one. "Moneyhore" places the song firmly in Wexford, rather than in the better known Bantry in Co. Cork.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament
From: GUEST,Lighter at work
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 09:55 AM

Let me take that back. I see now that "died for freedom's sake" is in the second DT text of "Bantry Girl," but *not* in O L.'s.

It was the source of the DT text that made the alteration, not O L.

O L took his melody from The Complete Petrie Collection, vol. 3, p. (or perh. No.) 693. He says that "The Dawning of the Day," which is the very next tune (694), is a "variant."

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament
From: GUEST,Lighter at work
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 09:38 AM

Thanks, Martin. So it looks as though O Lochlainn *did* alter the "died for Ireland's pride" phrase. Fascinating.

Might there be two different tunes known in the 19th C. as "The Dawning of the Day" ?

Just a guess.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament
From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 09:23 AM

Of course I have Delia Murphy's version. If I hadn't, how could I have written above "Delia Murphy's version (1941), almost certainly the first recording of the song, is in almost word for word agreement with O'Lochlainn, except that she omits the fourth verse, starting, "At wakes or hurling matches your like we'll never see".

The point about Peel is very interesting. In 1814 he instituted the Peace Preservation Force (the basis for the RIC in 1867): doesn't have quite the same ring to it as "Peelers"! The song could still have been about Peninsula War, and indeed written at that time, with "Peelers" substituted at a later date.

The first established police force in Ireland came in 1787. Named after the geographical areas of the Baronies, they were known as "Barnies" (yes, honestly!).

"The Barnies must stand idle"?

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament
From: MartinRyan
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 09:22 AM

Let's sort out the words:#

Graves in "Irish Songs of Wit and Humour" (1884) has the following:


Oh, Who will plough the field or who will sell the corn?
Oh, Who will wash the sheep an' have 'em nicely shorn?
The stack that's on the haggard, unthrashed it may remain
Since Johnny went a-thrashing the dirty King of Spain

The girls from the bawnogue in sorrow may retire
And the piper and his bellows may go home and blow the fire
For Johnny, lovely Johnny is sailing o'er the main
Along with other patriarchs to fight the King o' Spain

The boys will surely miss him when Moneyhore comes round
And they'll weep that their bould captain is nowhere to be found
the peelers must stand idle, against their will and grain
Since the valiant boy who gave them work now peels the King o' Spain

At wakes and hurling matches your like we'll never see
Till you come back again to us astore gra-geal-machree
And won't you throunce the buckeens that show us much disdain
Because our eyes are not so black as those you'll meet in Spain

If cruel fate will not allow our Johnny to return
His heavy loss we Bantry girls will never cease to mourn
We'll resign ourselves to our sad lot and live in grief and pain
Since Johnny died for Ireland's pride in the foreign land of Spain

Sparling's first edition (1887) doesn't include the song - and makes no mention of Graves' book.

Sparling's second edition (1888)includes the song, gives Graves as the source. His only change is to give the Irish phrase in verse 4 in Gaelic spelling:

a-stóir grádh geal mo-chroídhe

(N.B. Note the Cló Rómhánach! Nothing new under...)


O'Lochlainn gives Sparling as his source for the words and makes a few minor changes:



The boys will surely miss him when Moneymore comes round
And they'll weep that their bould captain is nowhere to be found
the peelers must stand idle, against their will and grain
Since the valiant boy who gave them work now peels the King of Spain

At wakes and hurling matches your like we'll never see
Till you come back again to us astóirín óg mo chroí
And won't you throunce the buckeens that show us much disdain
Because our eyes are not so bright as those you'll meet in Spain

O'L gives Petrie as his source for the air - with the "Johnny, lovely Johnny.." lines quoted earlier. Petrie says of that air:

(collected) " in the county of Londonderry in the summer of 1837 and is very probably a tune of Ulster origin. It was sung to an Anglo-Irish peasant ballad, of which I have preserved the following quatrain: " - followed by the lines cited.

As a musical illiterate, I can only say that O'L s tune LOOKS the same as Petrie's! The words are a different matter - they certainly sound like a fragment of Edward/What put the blood... and the date makes it very unlikely to have been the same song.

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament
From: GUEST,HughM
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 08:15 AM

I thought the War of Jenkins' Ear sounded plausible, but then I looked up Sir Robert Peel and saw that he created the Metropolitan Police after becoming home secretary in 1822, after both the Peninsular War and the War of Jenkins' Ear. Do all versions of the song include the word "peelers"? If so, it was probably written after 1822, though I suppose it could still refer to one of these wars.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament
From: ard mhacha
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 05:31 AM

Curiouser and curiouser indeed, I brought three old friends in to listen to Delia singing The Bantry girls lament, and also played a recording of The dawning of the day, sung by Michael O`Duffy.
The three men who ajudicated for me have been around the Irish music scene for many years and after hearing both songs found it incredible that anyone could have mistaken both songs as having the same air.

Delia finshes the first verse with, "since Johnny went athrashing, the dirty King of Spain", by the way, have any of you heard Delia`s version?.

The three friends also praised Delia`s singing of a fine song.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament
From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 02:52 AM

This gets curiouser and curiouser. "Dawning of the Day" was one of O'Lochlainn's all-time favourite songs. He sang it in public at a concert in Dublin in 1913 (no further details to hand). He was born in Dublin in 1892 and died in 1972. He wasn't a native Irish speaker, though he learned to speak it like a native and was quite scathing about other "big" collectors, notably Bunting, Petrie, and Joyce, for their almost complete ignorance of the Irish language, as he saw it. He hated Bunting in particular, calling him "arrogant".

Spanish Civil War? No!                                 

O'Lochlainn might change an odd word here or there, perhaps to |"improve" the rhythm, but he had too much inegrity to change the meaning of a song.

btw, his name wasn't "Colm"!

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 08:22 PM

Lochlainn prints Stanford-Petrie 693 almost exactly; a couple of changed note-values only (see my earlier post). If it's in Cooper, it will probably be listed as 'Oh Johnny dearest Johnny' or something like that; as I said, the song it belonged to doesn't seem to have been Bantry Girls at all, but an Irish version of The Bloody Miller (Oxford Girl, Wexford Girl, etc).

Does Petrie's Ancient Irish Music have any more detail?

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 07:32 PM

MartinRyan, does Petrie include the melody of "The Dawning of the Day" ? If so, I wonder how it compares to what O Lochlainn printed.

Am fascinated to know that there are two different editions of "Irish Minstrelsy." Is "Johnny, I Hardly Knew Ye" in 1887 ? I can't recall which one I looked at long ago, but "Johnny" was at the very end, almost an afterthought.

And I notice that the Bantry girl's song in O Lochlainn has her sweetie dying in Spain "for freedom." Sounds a bit anachronistic to me, but perfectly in keeping with the Spanish Civil War. Is that an O Lochlainn touch ?

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament
From: MartinRyan
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 07:16 PM

p.s. A quick glance at the index of the annotated "Petrie Collection of the Ancient Music of Ireland" edited by Cooper, shows no sign of the song.

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament
From: MartinRyan
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 07:14 PM

OK.

I have two copies of Sparling. Only the earlier (1887) contains the song. No music. Sparling writes:
"Taken from Graves' collection; on ballad-slips I have only seen very confused versions".

This refers to A P Graves "Songs of Irish Wit and Humour", published 1884. Graves' book has neither music nor notes on sources - at least not in my copy.

The version is the full 5 verses. Haven't checked it down to the exact words.

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 06:10 PM

I didn't read Lochlainn's note carefully enough, it seems. I don't have a copy of Sparling; it would be interesting to know if he printed a tune, or indicated one; that might explain the apparently different one used by Delia Murphy, perhaps.

Stanford-Petrie 693 is prefixed by the couplet

Oh Johnny dearest Johnny, what dyed your hands and cloaths?
He answered him as he thought fit 'by a bleeding at the nose.'

Lochlainn also quotes it in his note. The lines seem to be from The Witham Miller or one of its many variants, so the tune may not traditionally have belonged to Bantry Girls at all. Immediately following is number 694, The dawning of the day (from Kate Keane, December 1854) with a note appended: "A variant of the preceding".