BS: Evolution as Heresy?

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Stu
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 10:42 AM

"Paleontology puts me to sleep"

No way! Don't you love them old dinosaurs Joe?

Palaeontology and geology are subjects I find endlessly facinating, and I was taking a degree until the lack of money and the pressure of running my own business forced me to stop, though I am ploughing on in an amateur capacity.

This brief taste of learning and the instruction on interpreting and recording observations in a scientific manner changed the way I look at life (I am a mature student - in age at least!). The constant questioning of existing scientific models and the encouragement to develop your own opinions was quite refreshing and not what I expected at all for some reason, and this is what creationism lacks, being far more dogmatic than convestional science.

I think you have the right idea Joe, and though one or two of your teams are doubting and perhaps even getting slightly flustered by you teachings, you can bet they are thinking about it and that can't be a bad thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: TIA
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 10:52 AM

"Yup. And that's why there is a demand that schoolteachers stop teaching "science" as though it does disprove a creation (or creator)."

Where are the schoolteachers who are doing this? I think it is quite the opposite. I've got my kids in Catholic school because that is where they will get a good science education. Teachers in the local public schools are afraid to talk about evolution because of the irate calls from parents (and their attorneys) that they will get. However, thanks to Pope John Paul II, the Catholic school science teachers have been specifically given permission to teach about evolution. And I'm quite sure the Catholic school science teachers are not telling kids that science disproves God -- I think we might hear about that at PTA meetings.

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: TIA
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 10:57 AM

Oh, and gaps-shmaps.

I wish I could remember who the law is named after, but it goes something like;

...every new transitional fossil that fills a "gap" creates two new gaps...

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 11:46 AM

As a kid I collected fossils and travelled all over the UK to do it.
I no longer "Collect" but if I'm in a fossiliferous area I'll gather a few to give friends. The sense of wonder that inspired me to collect has not abated. You take a rock, break it open and you are the first entity in the universe to see the remains of an organism that died millions of years ago, the past lives again in your imagination.

PP

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 12:59 PM

We are following you Pied Piper and the FSM. The best writer on these and related issues is the Mighty, and sadly late, Stephen Jay Gould.

The Mismeasure of Man is good starting point but all his books are brilliant.

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: GUEST,G
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 01:43 PM

A very interesting and respectful discussion.
My little bit of personal observation over many, many years;
I studied science in elementary school while at the same time getting the Creation concept from Sunday School. I don' remeber any conflict.

I did a vague partime study on linking Creation and the Scientific concept for close to thirty years and I think I got an extra few points for 'Intelligent Design". I have to admit that in the last few years I have become a Deist. Remember, in my coming up years the New Testament was the hot hand book but in the last few years of born agains getting their boxers in a wad sometimes makes me wonder if they do not have as strong a belief system as I do. I speak to the Ministers, preachers, etc., as being the boxers in a wad group.

I have a good friend who is a scientist and basically embraces both concepts, or tries to. The running joke being what caused the 'Big Bang' with the answer being God.
He worked on the 'Big Bang' Theory as part of his involvement with a major University and was privileged to attend the final conference (summit meeting) what, 10 years ago? He presented a 5 minute paper that he described as not really proving anything.
He was, however, at the front of the auditorium after most reporters had left and was standing nearby when about the last remaining and very dubious reporter ask the conference leader "Well, this is sure difficult for me to accept this concept, it is way beyond my imagination.      ( paraphrased)

And the conference leader, probably out of gas by this time and wanting to leave, said, in a firm voice, "well, you gotta have faith".

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 02:06 PM

Personally, I suspect that science is too 'difficult' for many 'modern' people - even highly intelligent ones. Until recently I worked in a R&D department in which a good proportion of my colleagues had PhDs in scientific subjects - I can't think of one of them who thought like a scientist. If they started out as scientists they were soon corrupted by the people in Marketing (who treated them like 'technical gophers'). I soon realised that what the marketing community required of their technical vassals was to confirm their preconceptions and, if possible, take responsibility for them.
I'm sure that I will be accused of arrogance but the fact is that none of the above people could deal with uncertainty - in their eyes the greatest crime that anyone could commit was to say 'I don't know' or 'I'm not sure'. Everyone had to pretend to be 100% certain about everything all the time - exhausting!
Uncertainty is the driving force of modern science - it's only by constant questioning that one finds out anything worth knowing.
Of course, religious fundamentalists hate uncertainty as much as the marketing people. I suspect that there's a strong link between the mindset of modern capitalism and the rise of religious fundamentalism - at least they make very good bedfellows!

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 03:21 PM

"Uncertainty is the driving force of modern science" Incisively put, GUEST,DB. Uncertainty is the driving force behind all human progress.

Certainty leads to stagnation. Or, at least, the claim of certainly allows one to close one's eyes to things one doesn't want to see.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: GUEST,Heretic
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 03:50 PM

Well, I've paralleled the 'certainty' between Communists and Christians for much of the last century. Both claim complete utterly self-consistent philosophies from their founding texts to the point of destroying everyone else's texts. Both have killed off many many 'un' believers. Both bathed in self-certainty and being uncomfortable with doubters within the ranks.

And both were anti-Darwinian.

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: GUEST,G
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 04:19 PM

.....and one is still going quite strong.

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 04:49 PM

All of which has nothing to do with science.

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Peace
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 10:01 PM

One would think that the human brain is capable of holding two whole concepts simultaneously, no?

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 11:27 PM

Sure. And in rare cases even keeping them from mashing into each other -- there's the rub. The very young, the woefully untrained and the sad-sack, plain old stupid of this world have a hard time holding two concepts apart and mush 'em up into one haphazard impression. That's where you get scheisskopf propositions like "Evolution is only a theory" (meaning on a par with my cousin Bill-Bob's theory that beer prevents cancer). It is so dumb it looks like it HAS to be scurrilous, but in fact it is just plain ole human ignorance working hard to take over the world, the cognitive equivalent of entropy.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 02:11 AM

I don't particularly wish to be embroiled in any argy-bargy involving "I.D." and Evolution. All I'd say is there are false assumptions being put forward by both sides [er===more by one side than the other-----?] .Something I would like to put on the page however; much has been made of physical evolution, and rightly so---it has certainly been progressing over millions of years--[and I'm still not taking sides---]; what has seemingly been ignored is the NON-EVOLUTIONARY apparent explosion of human INTELLIGENCE. There almost certainly were many eons of human existence which threw up very little in the way of a brainpower which showed marked superiority over other mammals. Even the ancient Chinese civilisations are very recent in the long, long journey from ape to man. It was in those times that mankind SUDDENLY displayed a propensity for reasoned thinking, and inventiveness. You may think Archimedes, Aristotle et al. were figures in the distant past. So, why were those members of humanity so well developed mentally that they could come up with the foundations of, say, mathematics? How many humans today, starting from the same base of s[parse knowledge, would be likely to do exactly as they did? That, as far as I can see,puts the intelligence of human populations of some thousands of years ago practically on a par with those of the present day. Before men like these appeared--and in the timescale of "evolution" it was just yesterday---technological progress seemed to be almost invisible. If there was, thus, a sudden upsurge in human intelligence and subsequent knowledge, what triggered it, and why?

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 04:39 AM

Time for a fresh thread Boab?

The evidence (genes, fossils, language etc) strongly suggests Homo Sapiens Sapiens, us, all of us, evolved in Africa around 2,000,000 years ago. Those people, our ancestors, were on average as intelligent or otherwise as we are.

The change in intelligence had been evolving from way back and many current studies explore what caused that change. Lots of good popular but scientifically sound books can be found through Amazon or big book stores.

I will go and see what I have but I bet others will chip in here soon.

Cheers

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 07:38 AM

Sorry Les, you've got to be accurate when dealing with this field. It means people only argue over the facts, rather than mistakes.

The Genus Homo is found from 2 Ma B.P. ( million years before present), starting with Homo Habilis

Homo sapiens neaderthalensis is known from 200 ka B.P., and sapiens sapiens from 90 ka B.P. ( thousand years before present)

And Boab, what about the range of tools, of increasing refinement, made by all members of our Genus? What about the burial of the dead, with ceremony, by neaderthals? What about the apperance of art, from at least 40 ka B.P.?

The fossil record of our genus is very poor. It is only in the very recent past we have become an abundunt species. It is my opinion that evidence of early human thought is so rare due to the paucity of the fossil record. What could have been produced that proves complex though, and will suvive for us to find? Not speech, Not writing or art, unless it's on a deep cave wall.

Many skeletons are only know through the skull, and a few of the more robust bones. This is why stone tools are so useful, as they suvive very well. If you don't think those count, try and make one.


Agree time for a new thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 07:44 AM

Cognitive-entropy, nice concept Amos.

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 07:49 AM

First a little bit o' housekeeping:

Evolution is a fact. This is simply the observation that the structure of life has changed over time.

There have been several explanations for how the process of evolution could bring about the observed relationships of obvious 'families' of species that have distinct commonalities. One notable failure was Lamarckian Evolution which theorized that animals strived to change some aspect of their makeup, (e.g. the giraffe trying to reach yet higher leaves on the trees) and somehow this was passed along to their offspring.

The big religious hoo-haw over it all is whether the underlying process can be delineated as clearly 'not' the work of God. Most scientists do not involve God one way or the other. Some religiously motivated folk insist on intruding God into the science. One of the early popular arguments was that 'the existence of a watch necessitated the existence of a watch-maker'. While puerile, there are those who yet regard this as an argument with merit.

Charles Darwin was a very bright fellow and wrote some fine books. A lot of almost as bright people have followed up on his work, lending a lot of valid criticism and some refinements to the basic theory, which is simple to state "survival of the fittest". Not to mention that the work of Gregor Mendel leant a convincing mechanism to the passing on of characteristics, and the recent discovery and work with DNA and RNA have pretty much established the smoking gun of this mechanism.

Intelligent Design has none of the critically constructed scientific background to be taken as a valid alternative to Darwin's Theory of Inherited Characteristics. It could be mentioned in an educational environment as a subset of the fairly mild detractors to the current understanding. But it is as devoid of scientific merit as Lysenko was when he threw Soviet biology into the toilet in the 1930's with similar thoughts, sanctioned by the state.

As for the 'sudden' development of intelligence, there is a lot to be said, and a lot of intelligent things were said and written by Saint Chuck.
It is important to make another point that is often misrepresented by evolutionists themselves. There is often an erroneous concept that evolution has led to 'higher' forms of life. All that the theory really says is that the processes at work lead to the 'surviving' forms of life. Too often human judgement dispenses with impartiality and states that a crocodile is somehow lower or simpler than, say, a cheetah, because it is identical with relatives a hundred million years older than anything that has hair on it. It is more likely that the crocodile is evidence of a 'superior' design based on the facts.

Personally, I think of 'intelligence' as one of the more recent experiments being conducted by nature to see if it has advantages. The sea has carried more life for longer than the earth, and intelligent dolphins have co-existed with sharks for a long time, with neither side dispossessing the other of their environmental niches.

Whether or not the walking talking monkey can be impartially determined to be a 'winner' over the chimp or gorilla is a debating point, but in destructive ability I do not think there is a doubt. Whether or not the primate with a god is a more successful fellow creature than the ant, or likely to last as long as a species is another case entirely. Judging by the statistics, I think the ant is way ahead.

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 07:53 AM

Evolution turned out to be as capable of mis-use as Marxism or religion. Concepts of what constitutes a 'superior' human have been used to justify mass slaughter, or simply class structure.

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: GUEST,Lighter at work
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 10:17 AM

Check this out and decide (whatever your beliefs) whether you want ID taught in *science classes* as an important *scientific* challenge to Daewin :

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/050530fa_fact

"Intelligent design" (the basis for just about every religion) has been a topic in *comparative religion* classes since forever. It's this insistence that it's really science that's new and disturbing.

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Amos
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 10:51 AM

"Biologists aren't alarmed by intelligent design's arrival in Dover and elsewhere because they have all sworn allegiance to atheistic materialism; they're alarmed because intelligent design is junk science. Meanwhile, more than eighty per cent of Americans say that God either created human beings in their present form or guided their development. As a succession of intelligent-design proponents appeared before the Kansas State Board of Education earlier this month, it was possible to wonder whether the movement's scientific coherence was beside the point. Intelligent design has come this far by faith. "

From the New Yorker article cited above.

I recommend "The Blind Watchmaker", Dawkins, to actually understand the problems with the ID approach.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: BaldEagle2
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 01:30 PM

To paraphase the great guru Wiley Miller (who dispenses his musings in Non Sequitur):

The Tax statutes used by the Inland Revenue Service cannot be explained by any known accountancy theory.

This proves that they must have been created through that process known as Intelligent Design.

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Peace
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 02:14 PM

"The Tax statutes used by the Inland Revenue Service"

Interesting aside: The various tax services in government do not understand their own tax laws and the applications of those laws. The Taxation Department will not insure--in writing--that the correctionsthey make to your tax return are ACCURATE. That's a real balls up now, in'it?

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Peace
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 02:17 PM

I think a person is somewhat 'uneducated' if he/she is not able to discuss both Creationism and Evolution.

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: GUEST,clogger
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 02:20 PM

I heard a discussion on radio 4 (BBC) that went along the lines of:-
our ancestor monkeys deployed from the savana to the shoreline. This allowed a new foodsource to be exploited,in shellfish crabs seaweed and the like. This new foodsource was rich in iodine which the savana lacked. Iodine allowed the natural propensity to grow large brains (and use them). This "theory" (because we can not prove it yet) is called the "AQUATIC APE THEORY" and has progressed from ridicule to virtual acceptance in the last 30 years.(another form of evolution)
Now onto the Heresy bit,
I seem to rercall that The Bible lists the order of the creation of the universe in fairly accurate order, is this then religious evidence for Evolution? 8¬)

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: HuwG
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 04:55 PM

As far as I can tell, Intelligent Design (in one form at least) accepts all the propositions and arguments of evolution of life, and the astronomical, geological and geomorphological origins of the Earth (including its generally accepted age of ~4.5 Billion years), and so on. It then puts a sticker on top saying that "God's intervention is required for all this".

I believe that in other threads I have frothed at the mouth at what I see is the intellectual dishonesty of some creationists. Their argument can run, "You say the Earth is round ? Clearly it isn't. There are mountains and ocean depths. Since it isn't round, it must be flat." Intelligent Design clearly doesn't belong in the same category of sophistication, but still fails the test of observation and prediction.

In my opinion, which doesn't necessarily count for much, Intelligent Design can be summarised in the one sentence I highlighted above. It can be introduced in the first five seconds of any earth science or biology course, or appended at the end of the last lecture.

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 06:02 PM

"Intelligent Design" is nothing more than Creationism in a lab coat.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Peace
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 06:15 PM

Intelligent Design can also be interpreted as the result of the various physical 'laws' having been enacted or accomplished. I happen to believe in God. However, there is sufficient room in my 'philosophical' stance to accommodate all that science has to offer. God can take care of my 'spiritual' side. The physical sciences can handle the rest.

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 07:20 PM

I recommend folks read Robomatic's post above again...and if you have only skimmed so far, read it carefully the first time. He alludes to a point that is hard to make, but quite important.

Evolution is a process, and ONLY a process. It is not a 'design' and it does not play favorites. It is one part of a complex interrelation of physical laws which produce localized patterns, some of which temporarily support complexity, and some of which promote entropy.

We humans are in a funny place in that process, in that we are, as far as we can tell, the only localized pattern that is complex enough to reflect ON the process and our own place in it! That ability to reflect on our own self-awareness then becomes an integral part of the complex of patterns. When we look about and observe that we seem 'more advanced' than other forms of consciousness, it is easy to construct theories that grant ourselves some sort of meta-position in the hierarchy of being......as in:

"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth"

Possibly the most dangerous religious verse ever! If a species that can intrude on and dominate other species through its more complex brain also believes that it SHOULD, and has some sort of 'right' to ignore the fact that it is merely a part of the overall pattern, it sows the seeds of its own destruction.
   (shorthand translation: 'The universe does not care whether we survive or not. A large brain with "intelligence" is only one more trait, like being big and having sharp teeth, that can be useful in a context, but can cause strange things to happen when used carelessly.')

Of course we evolved! Whether we continue to do so indefinitely depends on whether we get a grip on the reality of what our own place in the complex process really is! We cannot keep doing some of the things we are doing (burning rain forests, over-fishing, polluting, over-populating...etc), without discovering that those physical laws we often ignore are immutable and omnipresent. We are here because some of those laws accidently allowed us to get to this strange self-aware status! But we are not immune to those laws just because we are able to hold the concept of being above them. "God" is not gonna provide either a Heavenly FEMA (or an Ark) if "Hurricane Homosapiens" floods its own little corner of the Galactic Mississippi Delta.....

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Peace
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 07:22 PM

True about that, Bill D. Well said.

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Amos
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 09:20 PM

Actually, I would say that evolution is just a mathematical description of a pattern of change, not even a process in any rigid sense. That is, the interactions that yield development in organisms are not scripted, but the follow certain laws of probability just like electrons hitting a crystal do. And they survive or do not survive depending on how those changes equip them.

I don't think the story of neo-Darwinism is complete by any means. But it is the most elegant description out there that accounts for the known data.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Peace
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 09:23 PM

I am with you guys on evolution. I am twice blessed. I believe that science holds many answers. In my reality I believe that God does also. As a BTW, I am not religious in any sense of the term.

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: frogprince
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 09:46 PM

'scuse me, Bruce-Peace, but I guess I'm not "evolved" enough to know what a BTW is without a hint. Just can't remember hearing that one.

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Peace
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 09:59 PM

By the way . . .

Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 10:14 PM

As I see it, it's important to distinguish among three expressions that are relevant here:

"Evolution"

"The Theory of Evolution"

"Darwin's Theory of Evolution"

To say, "I don't believe in evolution" is to assert a disbelief that species can change over long periods of time, perhaps giving rise to new species. To say this kind of thing is to fly in the face of huge amounts of data, gathered both from paleontological evidence and historical evidence of what has happened.

To say, "I don't believe in The theory of Evolution" is to utter a statement which is meaningless, as well as ignorant, because there are a number of theories of evolution. To be meaningful, the statement needs to make clear what theory of evolution is referred to, or perhaps to negate them all by saying, "I don't believe in any of the theories of evolution."

Now we get down to Darwin. But first one should understand what a theory--any theory--is. A theory is AN ATTEMPT at formulating a rational and logical explanation of a given phenomenon. Thus, loosely, "theory of flight", "theory of the law", "theory of gravitation", and so on, including of course "theory of evolution".

Darwin put forth his attempt at a logical explanation of the observed process and evidence of evolution. Others had other theories, and in some respects Darwin's has been subsequently modified because of later studies, but still his theory as stated was a monumental intellectual jump forward, and is exceedingly widely accepted pretty much as he put it forward, and the theories of his predecessors and contemporaries have gone by the boards, so much that many people don't even remember that they existed.

If you want to say, "I don't believe Darwin's theory of the origin of species," that's your privilege, I guess. But evolution itself is not a theory; it's a set of factual observations. The theory we ordinarily speak of is Darwin's.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 10:15 PM

Well, gol danged....

I used to think that maybe Darwin was on to somethin' so I went to the National Zoo down in DC and went into the "monkey" buildin' and had me a good look 'round...

Well, yeah, lotta them critters remind me of some folks I used to know back in Wes Ginny but then I was thinkin, "Hey, Bobert, these danged critters ain't half as bad ill-behaved as them folks back in Wes Ginny so I ruled the entire Darwin thing out...

But...

...hey, this 7 day story is tad hard to handle, too. I mean, yeah, God coulda handled all the heavens and earth and beats and man in, off, 'bout 15 minutes but creatin woman??? Hey, now I'z good God lovin' man but I'z been 'round a few womenz in my day and there's no way the God could just ripped this off the drawin' board in a day, or two, ot two thousand... This took some carefuill desigin'... I mean, you look at 'um and thet look pefrect but unner them perfect looks they go wiring schematics that prolly make the space shuttle's look like some football play drawed up in the dirt...

No direspect, God, but you stickin' to yer story that you created womenz in a day??? Got any evidence???

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Peace
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 10:28 PM

"Anytime humans get to thinking they are 'all that', it is prudent to remember that the mosguito was made before us in the divine order."

It is also important to remember that the Bible was written by humans. There is as much political background to 'The Book' as there is to science in its myriad forms.

It is not important to me at all to believe that God made the universe, etc. It is enough for me that God exists. It is not important to me that anyone else believes in God. My 'reality' does not depend on the views of 'the guy next door'.

It is easy not to believe in God--whatever form that God takes. I have been there and done that. I may return to that belief. I may not.

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Peace
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 10:30 PM

As a BTW, two of the most reasoned and intelligent folks I know do not believe in God. And two of the most reasoned and intelligent folks I know do.

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Amos
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 10:48 PM

I bet 3-to-5 they don't define it the same way as those who do not!! :)

There are some very fine reasons for believing in....some Infinite; but dressing him up like a septuagenarian Ken doll is not exactly rational.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Peace
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 10:51 PM

I hear that, Amos.

BTW, you were one of the folks I was referring to.

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 01:59 AM

No direspect, God, but you stickin' to yer story that you created womenz in a day??? Got any evidence???

There are scriptures that say it took God three tries to make Eve. The first one (Lilith) ran off 'cause she wouldn't take Adam lordin' it over her. Adam said the second one was so repulsive she made him sick (they don't say how she disappeared). God used deceit, deception, and disguises to make Eve (the third try) look really attractive to Adam so he'd be happy with her




... for a little while.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 01:51 PM

Well . . . actually, I don't know how many attempts God made with the female of the species, but it turns out that between Adam and Eve, He made Eve first.

She was designed to have three breasts rather than the current two. When He breathed life into Eve, she checked herself out, and said "Well, I guess redundancy is a good thing in most cases, but I really think three breasts is a bit excessive. I could probably make do with just two."

So God removed one of Eve's breasts, and she went off to check out the layout of the Garden.

God stood there with the one breast in His hand and mused, "Now, I wonder what I can do with a useless boob?"

Then God made Man.

Don Firth

P. S. (At least, that's what a couple of my female friends tell me. . . .)

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 03:16 PM

Which came first? Evolution or the egg. It matters little since intelligent design is just religion...(in a lab coat as Firth says)

However I have to disagree with the Joseph Campbell quote that certainty destroys spiritual possibilities. I have had both.

A brief religious tract:
George Carlin on religion


When it comes to bullshit, big-time, major league bullshit, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullshit story. Holy Shit!

But I want you to know something, this is sincere, I want you to know, when it comes to believing in God, I really tried. I really, really tried. I tried to believe that there is a God, who created each of us in His own image and likeness, loves us very much, and keeps a close eye on things. I really tried to believe that, but I gotta tell you, the longer you live, the more you look around, the more you realize, something is fucked up.

Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed. Results like these do not belong on the résumé of a Supreme Being. This is the kind of shit you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude. And just between you and me, in any decently-run universe, this guy would've been out on his all-powerful ass a long time ago. And by the way, I say "this guy", because I firmly believe, looking at these results, that if there is a God, it has to be a man.

No woman could or would ever fuck things up like this. So, if there is a God, I think most reasonable people might agree that he's at least incompetent, and maybe, just maybe, doesn't give a shit. Doesn't give a shit, which I admire in a person, and which would explain a lot of these bad results.

So rather than be just another mindless religious robot, mindlessly and aimlessly and blindly believing that all of this is in the hands of some spooky incompetent father figure who doesn't give a shit, I decided to look around for something else to worship. Something I could really count on.

And immediately, I thought of the sun. Happened like that. Overnight I became a sun-worshipper. Well, not overnight, you can't see the sun at night. But first thing the next morning, I became a sun-worshipper. Several reasons. First of all, I can see the sun, okay? Unlike some other gods I could mention, I can actually see the sun. I'm big on that. If I can see something, I don't know, it kind of helps the credibility along, you know? So everyday I can see the sun, as it gives me everything I need; heat, light, food, flowers in the park, reflections on the lake, an occasional skin cancer, but hey. At least there are no crucifixions, and we're not setting people on fire simply because they don't agree with us.

Sun worship is fairly simple. There's no mystery, no miracles, no pageantry, no one asks for money, there are no songs to learn, and we don't have a special building where we all gather once a week to compare clothing. And the best thing about the sun, it never tells me I'm unworthy. Doesn't tell me I'm a bad person who needs to be saved. Hasn't said an unkind word. Treats me fine. So, I worship the sun. But, I don't pray to the sun. Know why? I wouldn't presume on our friendship. It's not polite.

I've often thought people treat God rather rudely, don't you? Asking trillions and trillions of prayers every day. Asking and pleading and begging for favors. Do this, gimme that, I need a new car, I want a better job. And most of this praying takes place on Sunday His day off. It's not nice. And it's no way to treat a friend.

But people do pray, and they pray for a lot of different things, you know, your sister needs an operation on her crotch, your brother was arrested for defecating in a mall. But most of all, you'd really like to fuck that hot little redhead down at the convenience store. You know, the one with the eyepatch and the clubfoot? Can you pray for that? I think you'd have to. And I say, fine. Pray for anything you want. Pray for anything, but what about the Divine Plan?

Remember that? The Divine Plan. Long time ago, God made a Divine Plan. Gave it a lot of thought, decided it was a good plan, put it into practice. And for billions and billions of years, the Divine Plan has been doing just fine. Now, you come along, and pray for something. Well suppose the thing you want isn't in God's Divine Plan? What do you want Him to do? Change His plan? Just for you? Doesn't it seem a little arrogant? It's a Divine Plan. What's the use of being God if every run-down shmuck with a two-dollar prayerbook can come along and fuck up Your Plan?

And here's something else, another problem you might have: Suppose your prayers aren't answered. What do you say? "Well, it's God's will." "Thy Will Be Done." Fine, but if it's God's will, and He's going to do what He wants to anyway, why the fuck bother praying in the first place? Seems like a big waste of time to me! Couldn't you just skip the praying part and go right to His Will? It's all very confusing.

So to get around a lot of this, I decided to worship the sun. But, as I said, I don't pray to the sun. You know who I pray to? Joe Pesci. Two reasons: First of all, I think he's a good actor, okay? To me, that counts. Second, he looks like a guy who can get things done. Joe Pesci doesn't fuck around. In fact, Joe Pesci came through on a couple of things that God was having trouble with.

For years I asked God to do something about my noisy neighbor with the barking dog, Joe Pesci straightened that cocksucker out with one visit. It's amazing what you can accomplish with a simple baseball bat.

So I've been praying to Joe for about a year now. And I noticed something. I noticed that all the prayers I used to offer to God, and all the prayers I now offer to Joe Pesci, are being answered at about the same 50% rate. Half the time I get what I want, half the time I don't. Same as God, 50-50. Same as the four-leaf clover and the horseshoe, the wishing well and the rabbit's foot, same as the Mojo Man, same as the Voodoo Lady who tells you your fortune by squeezing the goat's testicles, it's all the same: 50-50. So just pick your superstition, sit back, make a wish, and enjoy yourself.

And for those of you who look to The Bible for moral lessons and literary qualities, I might suggest a couple of other stories for you. You might want to look at the Three Little Pigs, that's a good one. Has a nice happy ending, I'm sure you'll like that. Then there's Little Red Riding Hood, although it does have that X-rated part where the Big Bad Wolf actually eats the grandmother. Which I didn't care for, by the way. And finally, I've always drawn a great deal of moral comfort from Humpty Dumpty. The part I like the best? "All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty back together again." That's because there is no Humpty Dumpty, and there is no God. None, not one, no God, never was. In fact, I'm gonna put it this way. If there is a God, may he strike this audience dead! See? Nothing happened. Nothing happened? Everybody's okay? All right, tell you what, I'll raise the stakes a little bit. If there is a God, may he strike me dead. See? Nothing happened, oh, wait, I've got a little cramp in my leg. And my balls hurt. Plus, I'm blind. I'm blind, oh, now I'm okay again, must have been Joe Pesci, huh? God Bless Joe Pesci. Thank you all very much. Joe Bless You!

(Copyright 1999 by George Carlin. Printed without permission.)

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Seiri Omaar
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 09:56 AM

I personally think God had it right with Lilith.

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Stu
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 10:01 AM

An excellent article by Richard Dawkins and Jerry Coyne on ID can be found here.

Recommended reading for all interested in the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: mooman
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 10:26 AM

Donuel said:

It matters little since intelligent design is just religion...(in a lab coat as Firth says)

Not even in a lab coat! Just religion.

Peace

moo
(working biologist for the past 37 years)

P.S. I certainly agree with Dawkin's view that there is a valid debate to be had in evolutionary biology but it certainly doesn't include ID)

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 11:03 AM

If we think that there was 'intelligent design' involved just because soemthing worked out, we must needs return to what we think is the definition of intelligence.

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 11:28 AM

We don't like having stuff too big and scary and complicated to understand, so it comes as no surprise that stories get invented to simplify it all!
"Thunder and lightning and birth and death and illness and recovery...wow! Great unseen spirts & powers must be at work!"

After many thousands of years, we even think we know what we MEAN by all those metaphysical terms.
   Once all the images, statues, legends, edifices and organizations to codify and organize the beliefs are in place and entrenched, it is awkward and unthinkable for many to allow some presumptuous little ideas like 'evolution' and 'scientific method' and 'physics' and 'astronomy' and 'anthropology' to come along and suggest that all those revered stories and institutions might need a little reevaluation.

So, we have a museum in Cincinnati that says the Earth IS only 6000 years old.

once more, my story about my favorite cartoon:

There is a cartoon strip called "Hagar the Horrible", about a silly Viking type with very modern problems. One Sunday saw him visiting the local wizard, Dr. Zook, who had a huge stone ring leaning against the wall, like that 'money' on Yap Island.

"What's this?", asks Hagar.
"That's my new scientific measuring device." replys Dr. Zook, "Step in!"
....so Hagar squirms into the center of the stone ring....

"More...hunch down...squeeze tighter..." Zook says, as Hagar tries to cram himself into the tight space. Finally, he is in, awkwardly peering out at the pleased wizard.

"There!", says Dr. Zook with authority, "You are exactly 5 feet tall!"

I don't suppose Bishop Usher would get the joke....

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 11:46 AM

The question of intelligence is profound and confounding one.

Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 11:53 AM

Look, if it hadn't worked out, we wouldn't be here arguing about it.

No need for intelligence to make it work.