Origin or title of House of the Rising Sun?

Subject: Origin or title of
From: Murph
Date: 12 Jan 99 - 11:40 PM

Can anybody tell me the original title & origin if this song? Is it public domain? Thanks. Great website!

---

Click for lyrics in the Digital Tradition

Subject: RE: Origin or title of House of the Rising Sun
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jan 99 - 12:11 AM

Hi, Murph - the earliest printed version I could find was in the 1941 John & Alan Lomax book Our Singing Country. They call it The Rising Sun Blues. They had no certain information about the history of the song, but said it appeared to be "fairly old as blues tunes go." I guess it's safe to say it's in the public domain.
It was recorded in 1941 by the Almanac Singers, and is available on their The Complete General Recordings CD on MCA, MCAD-11499. Also recorded by the Weavers, and by Eric Burdon and the Animals.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: Barry Finn
Date: 13 Jan 99 - 01:37 AM

I had also heard that the Whore house had a motif of the rising sun above it's entrance way, hence it's name. Can't confirm anyof that though. Barry

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 13 Jan 99 - 03:48 AM

I heard a radio interview last year with Eric Burden of the Animals. Older 'Catters will remember the band had a hit with the song in the sixties, so making the song famous where it wasn't already well known. Burden said he'd been to New Orleans not so long ago and was introduced to a woman who lived in the actual HOTRS, which I think is now a hotel or a private residence. She took him to the house and told him they'd found evidence to indicate that this was the actual original house in the song. There were lots of brothels in N.O. in those days (when? I don't know!), apparently, and this was, she said, famous in its day. I can't remember what it was that made them believe it was the house; maybe we can e-mail Eric Burden for more details?

Steve

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: Lesley N.Lesley N.
Date: 13 Jan 99 - 06:56 PM

Supposedly the "house" was a brothel on Rampart Street in New Orleans. There was a different tune by the same title that was popular in the "gay 90's". This from brief notes in the Golden Encyclopedia of Folk Music.

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: WillWill (inactive)
Date: 13 Jan 99 - 10:53 PM

Huddie Ledbetter also recorded a version of the song, though I'm not sure when.

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: Ronn Gilbert
Date: 16 Jan 99 - 01:04 AM

Lead Belly did record a song called "In New Orleans" which had similar words, but the tune was much different.

Various guidebooks for New Orleans make reference to a building reputed to be the original Rising Sun, but none state that any proven factual link has been made. Wishful thinking, probably.

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: Lesley N.
Date: 16 Jan 99 - 01:17 AM

The GEF says the authorities shut the House of the Rising Son down, though it oesn't say when. I'm surprised there aren't several claiming to be "THE" House, given the commercial possibilities - even if they couldn't openly indulge in the same trade.

I believe the folklore that grows up around a song is often as entertaining as the music. Hence though we'll never prove David Rizzio wrote either The Lass of Patie's Mill or Broom of Cowdenknows I think it's remiss of folklorists not to mention that is one of the rumors around the tunes. Of course that's not quite the same as giving an address for a brothel!

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: Dave T
Date: 16 Jan 99 - 08:43 AM

Along with the Leadbelly & Eric Burden versions, Doc Watson does one ("The Essential Doc Watson, Vol 1 & 2" and also on "Portrait"). The title is Risin' Sun Blues and Doc apparently learned it from Clarence Ashley. Before I heard this, I had always assumed Leadbelly wrote it. I think I have to agree with Joe that it's probably public domain.
Dave T

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: Allan S,
Date: 16 Jan 99 - 11:10 AM

Is that Rising SUN or SON ? Sorry I couldnt resist the pun :-}

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From:
Date: 16 Jan 99 - 11:56 AM

According to the booklet accompanying the Electra "Folk Box" anthology from 1964, Rising Sun has its roots in a 16th century English ballad, 'The Unfortunate Rake'. It is also related to 'The Cowboy's Lament' (Streets of Laredo). The song, itself, they date to the WWI period.

John

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: rick fielding
Date: 16 Jan 99 - 12:06 PM

Leadbelly's version of "House of.." which he called "Way Down in New Orleans" is an amazing performance and I urge mudcatters who haven't heard it to hunt it down. (sorry I can't recall which collection it's in) The guy was just so original, it blows me away to this day.

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From:
Date: 16 Jan 99 - 09:52 PM

I would assume that The Rising Sun would have been the name of a tavern-cum-whorehouse, or perhaps just a low sort of tavern where the flash girls hung around plying their trade. (Perhaps, being in New Orleans, it was a reference to the face in the shape of a brilliant sun that was the symbol of King Louis XIV, "The Sun King"?) The Rising Sun would have been a good name for a whorehouse, because that is what the rake would have seen in the guilty dawn. Up here they tended to use red lights.

I wonder if anyone has gone through old directories or newspapers to determine if there was ever such an establishment in New Orleans. I have a hunch that The Rising Sun might have been a common name for taverns in the last century -- certainly there are pubs in England called "The Sun".

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: mm
Date: 17 Jan 99 - 04:44 PM

Brothels were and are often nicknamed rather than officially named. I doubt it would have been in a street directory.

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: Stubs
Date: 17 Jan 99 - 06:34 PM

It's hard to remember, but I think there was some dialogue regardng the famous House on an old Steve Goodman album (interview?). This was to the effect that its music had evolved from "Greensleeves" as well as that to "Streets of Laredo" and "St. James Infirmary", brought to America by Irish immigrants(This might help to date it). The dialogue then progressed to a rendition of a medley of those songs, all using the tune to "Greensleeves", an enjoyable combination which I have adapted to my own songlist. As well, I recall a sixties reference, origin long forgotten,which primarily dealt with "Sloop John B" and its origin as a sailors' ribald sing-a-long but also mentioned "House of the Rising Sun" because each of them had over one hundred and fifty known verses! Each one likely had a different writer. Public domain? No problem!

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: Dani
Date: 02 Apr 00 - 09:12 AM

An interesting (to me, anyway) note: You can sing "O, Little Town of Bethlehem" to this tune. Done on acoustic guitar, it's lovely.

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: Alan of Australia
Date: 02 Apr 00 - 10:03 AM

G'day,
Well Dani, in that vein you can also fit the 23rd psalm to the tune. Whether you should or not I don't know.........

Cheers,
Alan

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: Abby Sale
Date: 02 Apr 00 - 10:50 AM

I'm sure the claim that it has roots in 'The Unfortunate Rake' is a confusion with "St James Infirmary (and/or) Hospital" & "Bad Girl's Lament."

If any want to check DejaNews, there were several long threads on it in rec.music.folk . We evoked much of the ultimate European roots or text & motif and the likelihood that the Rising Sun was an image - a rising sun mirror, perhaps, and common on back to France.

I got interested in the song as the spouse & I managed the building on Rampart St., a flop hotel at the time, in 1966. There was good evidence this was the actual building. Far better evidence (police lore, etc) than could be produced by the _other_ two cheap hotels making the claim.

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: JedMarum
Date: 02 Apr 00 - 11:49 AM

I learned this song from a folk music collection my guitar teacher had me using when I was a kid. It had a different melody than the pop version, and in fact I learned before the pop version came out (it's been that long since I was a kid). The old version still has merit, but I find audiences are not swayed - they want the pop melody, although they'll accept a wide variety of arrangement. It's a good song.

I must say, in my travels I was amazed to see the popularity it has in the karaoke bars of China. It was a favorite in Beijing, Chensha, and other PRC cities I visited ... ranking right up there with Unchained Melody and I Did it My Way! Who'd a thunk it???

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: JedMarum
Date: 02 Apr 00 - 11:52 AM

... by the way, the folk song book in which I found the older/alternative melody was, I believe, and Alan Lomax collection (released in the early/mid 60's). I heard this was the version Woody Guthrie sang ... but I could not confirm that myself.

Myabe I'll try the old version again ... see if audiences respond any differently now-a-days.

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 02 Apr 00 - 12:00 PM

I think, like the "Loch Ness Monster" and "Roswell N.M." the locals in New Orleans (and tourist bureaus everywhere) are very happy to have as many "authentic" Houses Of the Rising Sun as possible. Just good business. Not saying the ones' mentioned AREN'T authentic though. Wonderful song.

Rick

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: JedMarum
Date: 02 Apr 00 - 12:06 PM

probably true, Rick. It is also possible the original author, or early contributors to te song, had more than one place in mind when they wrote it.

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 02 Apr 00 - 04:34 PM

The image of the "rising sun" was a common one in 18th century America--as a motif in furniture design, for example. There's a well known story of Benjamin Franklin looking at the design on the back of a chair at the Continental Congress (or was it the Constitutional Convention?) and deciding that it was of a rising sun rather than a setting one.

The image of the rising sun gave its name to a tavern in Northeastern Maryland--now the town of Rising Sun, MD.

--Charlie Baum

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 02 Apr 00 - 07:41 PM

Caroline and I love Hally Wood's singing of this song on either her Elektra 10 inch LP Oh Lovely Appearance of Death or her Stinson record, also a 10 inch LP, Texas Folksongs. Great singing! Unaccompanied.

I collected a splendid version from William Harrison Burnett in Fayetteville, Arkansas, in 1963. He had learned it from a fellow migrant apple picker, if memory serves, decades before. I'll have to check my field recording for more complete information, but I want to do that anyway, since I plan to use his singing of it on my next Ballads and Songs of Tradition CD.

I would assume it is a "trad." number, but be careful about duplicating anyone's popular arrangement, which is surely held by the Animals (was it?) or Leadbelly, or their respective publishing companies. You might be able to prove that the song is older and p.d., but I'm afraid the arrangement is not.

Sandy

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: GUEST,Arkie
Date: 02 Apr 00 - 08:45 PM

Relying upon memory and speaking before checking this thing out, but I believe the House of the Rising Sun was recorded by the Callahan brothers back in the 20's under the title of Rounder's Luck.

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: Caitrin
Date: 02 Apr 00 - 09:09 PM

You can also do "Amazing Grace" to this tune. Very odd-souding. "House of the Rising Sun" sounds even stranger to the tune of "Amazing Grace", though. : )

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: GUEST,Megan
Date: 02 Apr 00 - 09:56 PM

I looked up "Rounders Luck" on the internet and came up with a site entitled - House Of The Rising Sun:

http://www.willy.msk.ru/music/willy1.html

Anyone speak Russian?

Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of a Russian to English translator on microsoft word.
Anyone?

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: WyoWoman
Date: 03 Apr 00 - 01:32 AM

I really hate to mention this, because it will stay with you forever, but you can also sing any of Emily Dickinson's poems to this tune.

Heart we will forget him,
You and I tonight

or
I heard a fly buzz -when I died,
The stillness in the room
Was like the stillness in the air
Between the heaves of storm
etc.
(Of course, you can also do House of the Rising Sun and any of Dickinson's poetry to the tune of "Yellow Rose of Texas," too, but why mention that?

WW

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 03 Apr 00 - 01:51 AM

Dylan had an interesting version on Freewheelin'.

A friend from New Orleans told me the name "Rising Sun" was an intentional play on words. The establishment was popular among the fairly well-to-do gentlemen of the city, and it was traditional for them to take their sons there for their first taste of sin, hence "House of the Rising Son".

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: Bugsy
Date: 03 Apr 00 - 05:02 AM

Interesting to note that the two earliest versions I heard, I think by Woody Guthrie and Huddie Ledbetter were both in a Major key as opposed to the more modern versions which are in a Minor.

Cheers

Bugsy

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: alison
Date: 03 Apr 00 - 05:12 AM

Another hymn..... we used to do "There is a green hill far away".. to 'House of the Rising sun".....

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: GUEST, A.C.
Date: 03 Apr 00 - 05:43 AM

Hymn? Where did you do this, Alison, Belfast?

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: Ritchie
Date: 03 Apr 00 - 12:51 PM

Check out Snakefarms version, which along with some other great versions of other 'old' songs on their recent cd release. In my humble opinion a contender for the cd of the year in what was 1999. Funnily enough another contender, by Wyclef Jean, has a song which has the same tune as 'the house...' on.

Ritchie.

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: Kim C
Date: 03 Apr 00 - 02:31 PM

I'd like to know, too, where this actually came from. I read somewhere that a red lantern was standard at whorehouses and was referred to as "the rising sun"... hence the term red-light district. This may be one of those things that's been handed down and around so many times that its origins have been forgot. --------------Kim

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From:
Date: 03 Apr 00 - 03:51 PM

The best history I've heard about the origins of the song "House of the Rising Sun" goes like this. Originally written by a black musician named Sam House His mother was a freed slave who became seamstress in a New Orleans brothel in the late 1800's. The brothel itself burnt to the ground around the turn of the century and a new hotel was built on the site with a new name. Sam House performed at the brothel as well as other places around N.O.

The line in the song which referenced his real mother, was changed Eric Burden when he recorded it. His version has a line that ends with "she sewed my new blue jeans", originally went "she sewed dem fancy things".

There are several other phrases that were "cleaned up" by Eric Burden during the recording process because they were "too black".

I wish I could remember where I got this information, but I've "known" this history of the song for over 20 years and I doubt I could ever prove any of it or discover its source. At any rate it was fascinating at the time I heard it.

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: Doctor John
Date: 04 Apr 00 - 01:49 PM

The red light district of N.O. - Storyville - was closed down by the authorities around WWl. There's a good song about this called "Farewell to Storyville" about the whores moving out. I think I have a recording of it by a jazz singer with the Kid Ory band but that's the only time I've heard it. Dr John

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 05 Apr 00 - 01:55 AM

I am curious as to where the Animals got their melody, as well--I don't remember any one else using quite that one-- Was the tune that Chet Atkins used to do, called "Rising Sun Blues" the same as the Clarence Ashley melody?

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: Terry Allan Hall
Date: 05 Apr 00 - 09:38 AM

Eric Burton & the Animals stole their version from Bob Dylan's 1st album, who in turn learned it from Ramblin' Jack Elliott, who in turn learned it from a New Orleans busker...

So why does the Animal's bassist has the copyright?

Hmmmmmmmm..........

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: GUEST,Ritchie
Date: 05 Apr 00 - 12:46 PM

Sadly the Animals bassist, Chas Chandler, is now no longer with us. Chas after leaving the Animals went on to manage Slade & Jimi Hendrix...a very shrewd and sensible man (Chas that is, not Jimi !)

Ritchie (not a real guest) my PC's crashed again.

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 05 Apr 00 - 01:00 PM

As I remember it isn't the same melody at all--Unless I am very much mistaken, that version uses the major melody, and is similar to the Woody Guthrie version...

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: GUEST,Arkie
Date: 06 Apr 00 - 06:43 PM

I finally had a chance to check on the Callahan Brothers and found the following: The song "Rounder's Luck", also called "Rising Sun Blues" is on the Old Homestead LP OHM-90031. The album is entitled The Callahan Brothers. While the album notes are short on the songs, they are long on the brothers. The brothers were originally from Madison County in North Carolina but played on the radio in many states. They started recording in 1933. Rounder's Luck, according to album notes was orginally recorded April 11, 1935 on Matrix No. 17289-2. Homer (a pseduonym sometimes used by Bill) Callahan is credited on the record with vocal and guitar. The words and tune are a little different from the better-known versions but are close enough to be identified with "The House of the Rising Sun". I will post the words when I get a chance.

Subject: ADD: Rounder's Luck (RisingSun Blues)
From: GUEST,Arkie who has lost his cookie
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 12:26 AM

Here are the words to Callahan's version of Rounders Luck. The best I can figure them out. The place where I really had trouble is in ().

ROUNDER'S LUCK
(Rising Sun Blues)
from Homer (Bill) Callahan's 1935 Matrix recording

The only thing that a rounder wants
Is a suitcase and a trunk.
And the only time he's satisfied
Is when he is on a drunk.

He'll (loft) those glasses to the brim
Let the drinks go merrily round
We'll drink to the health of the rounder poor boy
Who hobos from town to town.

My Mother she's a seamstress.
She cuts and sews them jeans.
My Daddy he's a gambling man.
He gambles in New Orleans.

Oh Mama, mama how could you go
And treat that rounder so cold.
(For he's a rounder for all his strife)
And to wear your crown of gold.

Theres a place down in New Orleans
That's called the Rising Sun.
Where many poor boy (to judgment have gone)
And me oh lord for one.

O tell my youngest brother
Not to do what I have done
And to shun that place down in New Orleans
That's called the Rising Sun.

I'm going back to New Orleans
My race is almost run.
Gonna spend the rest of my weekly pay
Beneath that Rising Sun.

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: GUEST,Amazing Grace/House of the Rising Sun
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 03:07 PM

You can sing the four songs Amazing Grace, Gilligan's Island Theme, House of the Rising Sun, and Stairway to Heaven all to each other's tunes. It's my favorite party trick, actually.

Amazing Grace to Gilligan's Island is probably the funniest. Try it!

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 03:32 PM

The funniest thing of all is that, if you didn't know Gilligan's Island, you wouldn't know it was funny!

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 03:35 PM

Oops, posted before I finished---Arkie, thanks for the Rounder's Luck--it is very interesting!! Too bad they didn't say more about the sources of the songs--

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: Petr
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 08:52 PM

Hey speaking of gilligans island, did anyone see that episode where they almost get off the island but gilligan bungles it up. Petr

Subject: Lyr Add: RISING SUN BLUES (Clarence 'Tom' Ashley)
From: Stewie
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 10:23 PM

Back in October, in a thread started by Rick about Fred Hellerman's vesion of 'Rising Sun', I posted the following note and Clarence Ashley's version. My authority for saying it was the first commercial recording is Ralph Rinzler (Notes to 'Old Time Music at Clarence Ashley's Vol 2). It is interesting to compare it with the Callahan Bros version posted above by Arkie:

The first commercial recording of the song was by Clarence 'Tom' Ashley (guitar and vocals) accompanied by Gwen Foster (harmonica). I don't know the date, but it was probably 1931. Ashley has said that he thought he recalled his grandmother, Enoch Ashley, singing it to him when he was a young boy. Ashley taught it to Roy Acuff at medicine shows and Acuff also recorded it. It was also recorded by the Callahan Brothers in the 1930s. I think Woody, Josh White etc recorded it later in the 1940s. The Library of Congress also has some early recordings, all from Kentucky singers. In the country scene, it was a 'rounder' song. Here is Ashley's version which is interesting to compare with the wellknown version in DT:

RISING SUN BLUES

There is a house in New Orleans
They call the Rising Sun
Where many a poor boy to destruction has gone
And me, Oh God, I'm one

Just fill the glass up to the brim
Let the drinks go merrily round
We'll drink to the life of a rounder, poor boy
Who goes from town to town

All in this world does a rounder want
Is a suitcase and a trunk
The only time he's satisfied
Is when he's on the drunk

Now, boys, don't you believe what a girl tells you
Let her eyes be blue or brown
Unless she's on some scaffold high
Saying, 'Boy's I can't come down'

I'm going back – back to New Orleans
For my race is almost run
Gonna spend the rest of my wicked life
Beneath the Rising Sun

Source: 'Old Time Music at Clarence Ashley's Vol 2 Folkways LP FA 2359

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: Eluned
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 10:53 PM

Petr, that was redundant! (wasn't it, though?)

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 08 Apr 00 - 06:53 PM

I read somewhere that it might have been a woman's prison. It would explain the last verse on a version: One foot on the platform, the other on the train, Goin' back to New Orleans to wear the ball and chain.

On the other hand, other verses point to the brothel.

As re: the Animals, if you study the chord progressions for Josh White's interpretation, you will find similar ones to the Animals. They changed some of the chord structure but it's easy to see where they got it.

Josh was the one who did it in a minor key.

Roy Acuff did a major version as did Woody and others.

Frank

Subject: RE: Origin or title of
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 08 Apr 00 - 11:15 PM

All the songs mentioned are (more or less) in what is known as Common Meter, for obvious reasons. If you look at a shape note book, many of the songs will have the meter, that is, the rhythmic structure, listed as a parenthetical abbreviation after the title. This helped (and still helps) with tune switching. Love the words but not the tune? No problem, find another C.M. tune and dive right in. I can't remember the other meters and don't have my shape note book with me. Now where else but on the Mudcat can you go from Animals to brothels to Gilligan's Island to shape note hymns?

Aloha, Mark