BS: Cartoon riots around the world

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Cluin
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 04:32 PM

Just to clarify, Lonesome, my statement re: "moderates who want peace" above was an observation of a lamentable situation, not a directive.

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Amos
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 01:38 PM

Yes he is. I believe he might just be typical of the species.
(Martin)

Uh, Martin, if I may point it out, that is your own -- and my -- species, too -- nu? And the exceptions far outnumber any typicality I think you mean.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 01:01 PM

Tariq Ramadan (a European Muslim) has this to say:

Of course it started with a few people being hurt by the cartoons. But then a few people took the cartoons to the Middle East. Some governments there were very happy to present themselves as the great champions of Islam. One reason, of course, was to gain legitimacy in the eyes of their own people. But secondly, it was to direct the attention of the people, living under these dictatorial governments, toward the West and to provide their people with a vent for their own frustrations. And it worked -- it became Muslims against the West.

I rather follow this analysis than yours, Little Hawk. The European Muslims are more or less absent when it comes to violent protests against the cartoons. Greg has said it in this or one of the other threads. It is not a very important question for them. Some, even many, may have felt offended, but like the vast majority of Christians in a similar case did shrug the shoulder and went on with life. That lack of violent reaction was a positive surprise. There may be a second reason for their lack of reaction. They were fully informed by the press about the pictures and could see with their own eyes how harmless most of them were. The false propaganda that Mohammed had been depicted in the newspaper having intercourse with an animal that has been spread in some Muslim countries with the intention to whip up hatred couldn't work in an environment in which people have access to the correct information.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 09:18 AM

Little Hawk,

I do the who benefits thinking but come to completely different results as you do.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 08:53 AM

People prefer your anger to to your laughter. To be laughed at diminishes your power and importence.




I saw the CNN interview of the Danish publisher mentioned above.
The most hysterical thing about that interview on CNN was when he attempted to show a cartoon critical of Jews followed by a cartoon critical of Christian beliefs...
What happened is that they showed the Jewish cartoon depicting a bomb with a fuse but when he attempted to show the Jesus cartoon the lady interviewer literally jumped from the screaming in her earpiece to not show the cartoon. After trying to regain her composure she continued with the interview which was very awkward with the 5 second delay.
Later they did crop the Jesus cartoon and showed it for 3 seconds.





edit:
To be shocked in thinking I have exploited the holocast dead in cartoons is to miss the point that only the living can speak for the dead. If we do so in a way that instructs more than it inflames I believe some good has been done. Like beauty, anger is in the heart of the beholder. If I am entirely wrong then I have wasted most of my life in speaking out against lost causes.

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 07:39 AM

For what it is worth, I have done several cartoons of the holocaust.
In this one I sampled a photograph of the victims at Dachau and used them to represent Muslim dead... http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/bushfalluja.jpg


In another cartoon I changed a photo I made of night clouds illuminated by fire in DC to become the smoke from the Nazi concentration camp ovens. The smoke is the shape of a special letter in the Hebrew alphabet which has an additional meaning of 'why?'.

I turned Albrect Macht Frei iron gate into a US free speech zone.

I will not show the cartoon I made of the holocast dead piled high to create a podium for a current President due to the current climate and Iranian cartoon competition.

I have dedicated 10 years to say important things with pictures. For a cartoon to be great/timeless, I have tried to incorporate 3 things: suggest the mortality of men, the hypocrisy of men and a unique POV that makes a person think from a new perspective.

To be shocked that I have exploited the holocast dead in cartoons is to miss the point that only the living can speak for the dead. If we do so in a way that instructs more than it inflames I believe some good has been done. If I am wrong then I have wasted most of my life in speaking out against lost causes.

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 06:38 AM

Peace,

"If this country is threatened, I really hope we have the balls to seek out the people who made the threats and shoot the fuckers. Hell, all they have to do is threaten. No diplomacy, no talk, none of that. Just boom, boom, and be done with it. "


And Israel continues to show great restraint by NOT attacking those nations that have threatened it for the last 58 years. Israel has to wait until the threats are turned into action, and then is criticised for taking steps to defend itself ( though 1956 was a questionable case).

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 01:09 AM

Sorry, sorry.

Meant to say that cartoon, John, is GReaaaaaaaaat!

LonesomeEJ - I don't think anyone deserves this. Especially the Danes. I do wonder why the works were commissioned? I do question the wisdom of those who published after the Danes, knowing full well that there was trouble brewing.

I mean, give it a break: there's a time and place for everything. The timing was pretty bad. The press also has a responsibility.

Lets face it. Depictions of Christ or God or Buddah or Krishna are not generallly run in the local newspaper or even in most magazines.

So why challenge the 'freedom of the press' over this particular issue and why now?



I think this is simply a matter of; you reap what you sow.

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 12:48 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 12:48 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 12:44 AM

The moderates who want peace have to do something big to make themselves more known or else be painted with the same brush, unfortunately.

In a land where jihad is declared by a government leader against the author of a fictional book, offering a heavenly reward for his killer, would YOU speak out if you were a moderate Muslim? A moderate Muslim is probably someone who has a family and a home and attaches some value to his life. Do you think he (or she) would have the death-wish necessary to oppose that crowd? Even in countries like the US and Britain, the loudest voices coming from the Muslim community are those in harmony with the cartoon jihadists, not opposing their actions. Heck, you have people on this forum who see the whole issue here as the Danes getting what they deserve for being so darn critical.
Wasn't it T.S.Eliot who spoke of the best paralyzed by their own doubt, while the worst are filled with righteous fury?

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: John O'L
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 12:32 AM

Another cartoon

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Cluin
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 12:11 AM

Exactly, jaze. But it's the wacko extremists on both sides that make the news. The moderates who want peace have to do something big to make themselves more known or else be painted with the same brush, unfortunately.

I notice that a lot of sites on the internet that had posted those cartoons for people to see what the fuss was about have since taken them down. A lot of dead links out there.

Tune in again next week to "The squeaky wheel gets the oil" or "Free speech caves in to fear".

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: jaze
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 11:55 PM

Sadly, these Muslims have just proven the point of the cartoons. With the turban/bomb idea it was expressing the violence in Islam, and they went right out and proved it to the world. Bush said it is a religion of moderation and tolerance. Really?? Some Muslims claim extremists have hijacked their religion. Why don't they hijack it back? The silent majority of Muslims seem to be giving tacit approval to the extremists by saying and doing nothing. But then Christianity has somewhat of the same problem with the "Religious Right".

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Once Famous
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 11:44 PM

Yes he is. I believe he might just be typical of the species.

Of course the cartoons, which were drawn originally last September were the Jews lashing out at Hamas' win about 2 weeks ago.

I can't wait until someone like this is put in his place in a big cloud of smoke.

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Peace
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 11:37 PM

"Ayatollah blasts publication of cartoons
07/02/2006 - 11:40:45

The West's publication of the Prophet Mohammed cartoons was an Israeli conspiracy motivated by anger over Hamas' win in the Palestinian elections, Iran's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, said today."

From here.



Not yer average garden-variety asshole, is he?

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Once Famous
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 11:28 PM

Guest, I wasn't addressing you. And I figure you are not part of the groups you mentioneed anyway as you are just a non-entity.

But you can pretend you are the protector of humanity all you want.

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: bobad
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 10:56 PM

The battle lines are being drawn:

NY Press Kills Cartoons; Staff Walks Out

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 10:44 PM

A cartoon opinion of cartoon opinions

It's hard to say it more clearly.

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 10:43 PM

Jon Stewart made the important point recently that Danish cartoonists have actually been the source of problems for quite a while. He cited the famous 1989 cartoon of "Revelations of Havarti Cheese", noting the serious unrest unleashed in the Danish cheese-making community as a result.

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 10:36 PM

"Have you personally ever known fear because of your religion?"

Are you saying Jews are the only ones who have suffered from this?

Lets see - Cathars and many early Christians, Armenians and now Muslims. Oh yeah - What about Catholics in Northern Ireland or Tibetan Buddhists?

Martin - You are so self-centered that you absolutely lack empathy for any other population of persecuted people. Grow up and stop feeling sorry for yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Cluin
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 10:23 PM

I wish.

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Peace
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 10:17 PM

No. Deal with the guy who made the threat. Period.

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 09:47 PM

You don't deal with a loudmouth politician or cleric who made a threat by killing a hundred thousand ordinary people who happen to look a bit like him or have the bad luck to be from his country or culture...

At least, I don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: number 6
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 09:44 PM

Fucking cartoon land .... and it's right here!

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Peace
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 09:44 PM

There we agree. Completely.

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Cluin
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 09:38 PM

I don't have to know fear because of my religion; I have enough other sources of it.

I also don't have to wear it on my sleeve. It's mine. For me.

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Peace
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 09:33 PM

I didn't think you would. Same goes for my country. Assholes anywhere threaten our country, I hope we unleash folks who would enjoy dealing with those who made the threats.

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Cluin
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 09:32 PM

Depends on the threat, its immediacy, how I know it's true, and what my options are.

But no, I'm not just gonna let it go.

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Once Famous
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 09:31 PM

Cluin, you talk in circles. Have you personally ever known fear because of your religion? Well, I sure have. Oh yeah, first you have to have a religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 09:30 PM

Yeah. Jesus did. Gandhi did. Buddha did. Baha 'Ullah did. I think they just about all did. It's their followers who are the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Peace
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 09:29 PM

Leaders will NOT use this option because it makes them targets also. As to a vicious circle? No. Tell me. Someone threatens your family, and the police do nothing, you just gonna let it go?

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Cluin
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 09:28 PM

And when that other group of people are told you hate them, then they respond in kind. Nicely vicious little circle.

Hasn't anybody ever spoken out against this kind of thinking? Maybe even somebody "religious"?

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Peace
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 09:24 PM

"It's a conundrum alright."

Threats from anyone are nonstarters, IMO. If this country is threatened, I really hope we have the balls to seek out the people who made the threats and shoot the fuckers. Hell, all they have to do is threaten. No diplomacy, no talk, none of that. Just boom, boom, and be done with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 09:21 PM

Exactly. That's my point. The media tells most people what to think, and what else do they know about it?

When I was growing up, the media constantly programmed the North American public to hate and fear Communists, and expect to fight them at any moment. Now it's Muslim fundamentalists instead. Different "bad guy", same basic routine.

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Cluin
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 09:17 PM

Sorry. "North" Americans.

But maybe there's good justification for your stereotype. When you are being repeatedly told a group of people hates you and wants you dead, you will naturally hate them back. After all, when you don't really have much to do with them on a personal level day-to-day, what do you know about them really except what you're told.

Then again, "familiarity breeds contempt".

It's a conundrum alright.

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Cluin
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 09:14 PM

Now you're stereotyping Americans.

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 09:11 PM

Most North Americans also see the Muslims as one big block of faceless, fanatical, brown-skinned foreigners in faraway places.

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Cluin
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 09:11 PM

And the stronger the enemy, the more glory when you spit in his eye?

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Cluin
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 09:08 PM

Maybe it's easier for them to hate us if they see us as one big block of faceless infidels in the decadent west.

While we have to separate out the rabid hate-mongers who thrive on pain and strife in some sado-masochistic bid for promised spiritual reward.

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 09:04 PM

When I say "us", I mean North America. I realize that for you, "us" includes Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 09:02 PM

I don't think it does come to their homeland or ours...unless we make it so. We have the power, they don't.

We are the guys with 10,000 nuclear weapons and the biggest high tech military forces on Earth. They're not even strong enough to fight Israel, let alone us.

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Once Famous
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 08:56 PM

Little Hawk, so what if it comes to their homeland or ours? Personally, I think they can't be reasoned with and I am not up for Israel or the U.S (OK Canada, also) getting it from them in their rage.

I mean, they hate us. The biggest hate there is. They want to take us out.

When are some of you lefties going to get it into your thick skull?

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: John O'L
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 08:17 PM

I hear that Michael jackson is going to sing some of the prayers of Pope John Paul II.
That should be enough to get Christians burning black face masks on the lawns of Neverland surely?

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 08:14 PM

That's partly true, Martin. They perceive us as decadent, immoral, spoiled, addicted to pornography and drugs, and spiritually bankrupt. They're partly right. ;-) Still, that's no justification for killing people. Besides, they are not taking note of the great big beam that's in their own eye.

We perceive them as primitive, superstitious, fanatical, addicted to religious rules, and spiritually blind. We're partly right too. Still, that's no justification for launching pre-emptive wars on people and wrecking their homeland.

Same old story....

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Peace
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 08:09 PM

"As are some Christian and Jewish clerics."

Yes, that is true. But there is a bitchin' higher percent of idiot Muslim clerics than there are Rabbis or Priests. Other than Robertson, how many Rabbis and Priests do you read about who suggest we all go off and murder p[eople because they have insulted Jesus or the Pope or The Wailing Wall or the Temple? Give it a rest.

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Once Famous
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 08:03 PM

This is a culture war. These people are at war with people of the 21st century.

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 08:03 PM

As are some Christian and Jewish clerics.

The worst fanaticism I've seen is in 2 places that can't stand one another: Saudi Arabia and Israel. Oh, and add Iran to that list too. All three of them are convinced they are God's Chosen and the Righteous Sword of his Wrath. This makes them a plague upon themselves and their neighbours.

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Peace
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 08:00 PM

Because some Muslim clerics are total and complete assholes.

Subject: RE: BS: Cartoon riots around the world
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 07:59 PM

Most people seem to lack complete objectivity or even-handedness when it comes to such things, Amos...just watch the rhetoric on this forum.

The only thing that's quite notable about this cartoon crisis is its timing, and how well it has been orchestrated through the world media. That guarantees the biggest and worst possible reaction on the part of both Muslims and Europeans. It's very convenient for certain parties. That is why it's happening.

When something is needed to outrage Americans, something will be found. Just wait and see. Remember the "babies in the incubators" phony story from Kuwait? Remember 911? Remember the Reichstag fire? Remember the Maine? When provocations are needed, they will be provided.