BS: Polarization

Subject: BS: Polarization
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 16 Feb 06 - 10:12 PM

Each of us has a choice in our life. We can succumb to the polarization that sets us aginst each other, or seek to find a commonality between all men. It's easy to see the effects of polarization in the world today. Hatred and violence permeate the news. Extremists in the Arab World spew hatred toward the West. Some American and British soldiers commit attrocities against Arab prisoners. In the United States, political battle lines are drawn with no prisoners taken and no quarter shown. The lust for power blinds many elected officials to the needs of the people they purport to serve. Extremists within the Christian religion preach their message of exclusion and judgment of those who dare disagree with them, whether they be Christian or Atheist. The rich draw their battle lines against the poor and police are caught on video tape beating poor, unarmed blacks to the verge of death. These are the fruits of polarization: demonizing those who do not agree with you.

In recent months, I've seen that same polarization occuring here in Mudcat and it leaves me very heavy-hearted. It has become near-impossible to carry on a reasonable conversation in here because there is so little respect for those who don't agree with the often judgmental and confrontational titles of threads. The more offensive and confrontational the title, the longer the thread grows. People seem to get swept up in the excitement of a fight, like little kids on a playground shouting "fight, fight!" as soon as an altercation starts. Less confrontational titles dissapear off the bottom of the screen after a few posts. But each of us has a choice. We can seek to understand and respect each other and show compassion. The truth is, each of us has gone through our own private Hell in our lives, and whatever our differences, we all need encouragement and love. We can choose to respect each other and build on our common humanity. I read the observation that Mudcat only reflects our society. I do not intend to reflect our society. As long as we accept the polarization that sets people against each other, nothing will change. We do not have to agree to be civil. We do not have to like each other to be respectful of each other. Each of us can change. I am trying my best to do that. Ironically, the person on the Cat who has shown the greatest change is the much-reviled Martin Gibson. And I applaud him for that. I applaud Bill D for his inherent fairness, and Little Hawk for always seeking to be a peace maker. They, ande many others set an example for me.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Polarization
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Feb 06 - 10:23 PM

"choose to respect each other"

Respect those who by their actions prove themselves WORTH respecting

Subject: RE: BS: Polarization
From: Janie
Date: 16 Feb 06 - 10:28 PM

Hi Jerry,

I wondered where you were the last couple of weeks. You make some excellent points, as is usual.

I believe I'll try to do a bit better myself.

Thanks.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Polarization
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Feb 06 - 10:51 PM

Not a bad point there, Clinton...that's what I do too in real physical life, but this is a disembodied yakking forum, which is a bit different.

I'm as opinionated as the next guy, Jerry, but I usually try to look at both sides in a debate. I find that most people just don't do that at all. They never even think of it. (They figure there's only 1 right side and they are ON it!)

I occasionally play devil's advocate, just to broaden the possibilities of a discussion. Martin does that sometimes too, I think. I usually manage to maintain a sense of humour...even as regards myself. That can help to de-polarize things quite a bit.

Anyway, thanks for the good words.

Subject: RE: BS: Polarization
From: Cluin
Date: 16 Feb 06 - 10:54 PM

I'm glad I don't give a sh#t about anything.    ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Polarization
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Feb 06 - 10:56 PM

If you did, the chances are that no one would take it anyway...

Subject: RE: BS: Polarization
From: Gurney
Date: 16 Feb 06 - 11:12 PM

It is so SAFE to be an extremist on the web! The most arrant coward can be bold. And anonymous.
If a person expressed in a public place some of the opinions and comments and retorts that I've seen on this forum, they would quickly learn to be more careful. Or they would have to be good fighters.


And no, a forum is not a public place, no-one is physically present.

Subject: RE: BS: Polarization
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Feb 06 - 11:17 PM

Exactly. That makes it safer, but far less controllable than physical life.

Subject: RE: BS: Polarization
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 16 Feb 06 - 11:26 PM

Too many of us are angry, scared, and frustrated. We're pissed off and spoiling for a fight. But we can't get to those who are the source of our anger, fright, and frustration, so we go after the soft targets, meaning anyone whom we can get away with attacking.

Subject: RE: BS: Polarization
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 06 - 11:34 PM

Bologna.

Subject: RE: BS: Polarization
From: Cluin
Date: 16 Feb 06 - 11:34 PM

So we just need an outlet for our frustration, eh?

New thread comin' right up...

Subject: RE: BS: Polarization
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Feb 06 - 11:34 PM

You are describing one of our dachshunds to a "T". ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Polarization
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Feb 06 - 11:38 PM

I mean...Janice was describing our dachshund.

Subject: RE: BS: Polarization
From: Cluin
Date: 16 Feb 06 - 11:41 PM

I didn't think you meant your little wiener dog to be an outlet for our frustration.

Poor little puppy...

Subject: RE: BS: Polarization
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 17 Feb 06 - 12:20 AM

Jerry, you know I love ya, but does having said all that make you feel better than those who expressed their feelings in those threads? All they/we did was make some points at the expense of those who are better off in limbo.

LIMBO is where Rush Limbaugh originated.

Art   ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Polarization
From: SunnySister
Date: 17 Feb 06 - 12:30 AM

A great thread starter, Jerry. Thank you. Much appreciated and supported.

--SunnySister who enjoys a harmless cyberfood fight to arguments any day of the week. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Polarization
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Feb 06 - 06:02 AM

I prefer to wear polariszed sunglases.

Subject: RE: BS: Polarization
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Feb 06 - 08:45 AM

Good news, Jerry...

While, yeah, folks are polarized on national policies they are much more cooperative in their own communtities... I have been involved with Main Street programs in both Leesburg, Va. and now Luray, Va. MainStreet programs are cropping up all over American towns and cities and are 100% bi-partisan... Fold don't get into the national debates becuase they are too busy joining with one another to make their communities better...

Yeah, I know that a,ot of the folks who I have worked with and really care about probably voted for and supported Bush... Thet's their business...

Also, if we look around we also see alot more cooperation on state and local governments with bi-partisan forward movement on difficult issues of taxes and eductaion and transporation... Look at Virgina, for instance. A Democratic governor, Mark Warner, just ended a very successful term with a Republican controledl General Assembly... He did it by finding common ground... He actually got a Republican General Assembly to "raise taxes"...

The only real failure in our system is our federal governemnt which is bogged down in partisanship and for a good reason: it has gotten expensive to get re-elected and the only way to get dough isd to keep the bases stirred up and both parties do it very well... This is a systemic problem more than a conscious problem to go at each others throats...

And, yeah, many of us here in Mudville are cuaght up in it. For me, it's because of the the power grab by the Bushites and their terribly anti-human policies that play to their source of dough... If dough were taken out of the equation we would have a "kinder, gentler" federal governemnt...

Until then, yeah, I'll dfight against policies that I think are anti-human and anti-Earth...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Polarization
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 17 Feb 06 - 09:49 AM

No, Art: I don't think that I am better than those who "Make some points at the expense of those who are better off in limbo." I'm trying to live my own life the best that I can and at least try to avoid feeling superior to someone else. I've got several lifetimes worth of weaknesses and insensitivities to overcome. Trying to make yourself feel better by judging others is a losing proposition. Even being focused on yourself too much is a losing proposition. The book The Purpose Driven Life begins with one simple sentence, and I couldn't agree more: "It's not about you." It's not that important to me what others believe, as you know, my friend. When I started this thread, I spoke from my heart and the Catter who came to mind first was Martin Gibson, who is Jewish, and still says things from time to time that I find offensive but has made more positive, non-inflamatory contributions too. I applaud any effort at change. He has made an effort to reign in his more extreme attacks. Bill D came to mind because I find him a real Gentle-man.
We are at opposite poles on matters of faith, yet I consider him a friend, as I do you, Art. Little Hawk is a peace maker and I respect him for that. In this world, peacemakers aren't always blessed. If you're angry and itching for a fight, peacemakers are the last people you want around.

From my perspective, too much of the world is driven by the loudest, most aggressive people at the extremes. I see people who are angry about what is happening in the world, or their community who focus their energy on the problem and the people who are responsible. They shoot with a rifle, not a shotgun with bird pellets. That's what we all need to do. And sometimes, showing respect for people who we don't feel deserve respect can open a door to communication and resolution.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Polarization
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Feb 06 - 11:35 AM

Uh-oh. I sense the approach of another phase of acute polarization...

Subject: RE: BS: Polarization
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Feb 06 - 11:49 AM

I heard an old quote from Gunsmoke the other day, as said by Festus to a youngster who was being quite rude:

Ain't too flush with common manners, are ye?

I immediately thought of Mudcat and the appropriatness of the comment. Seems to me we have an abundance of folks who have lost or never had "common manners," including/esp. MG, and a few others of his ilk. Sorry, Jerry, I do not see an improvement in that dept.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Polarization
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 17 Feb 06 - 11:59 AM

'sQuite awright, Kat... You sees it differently. Perhaps I am going overboard in my desire to encourage people to at least be civil.. and Martin ain't the only one, by any means, as you point out.

I think of two Beatles songs as linked together:

Come Together/All You Need Is Love

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Polarization
From: Paul Burke
Date: 17 Feb 06 - 12:08 PM

Jerry, if society is becoming more polarised, and I agree with you on that, you must expect it to be reflected here. Ignore it, and it's just swept out of sight. I think one thing that has accelerated the polarisation was the sudden, rapid, and, to some us over the water, unwelcome changes of attitude after the twin towers atrocity. I think it's a good thing, if a bit painful, for us to know how left siders think, and conversely for Americans to appreciate that attitudes elsewhere can be very different.

Subject: RE: BS: Polarization
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 06 - 12:31 PM

The old days were so much better and more genteel.

But these ain't the old days.

Subject: RE: BS: Polarization
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 06 - 12:32 PM

So many of us are so much less than perfect. And it's nice that the good people here keep us reminded of that.

Subject: RE: BS: Polarization
From: Kaleea
Date: 17 Feb 06 - 12:35 PM

Anybody remember what you were taught in kindergarten?
How about the "magic words" taught by Captain Kangaroo?
or even-
   The Golden Rule!

& if all else fails--PLAY MUSIC!!

Subject: RE: BS: Polarization
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 17 Feb 06 - 12:45 PM

Hey, Paul:

Last fall, my wife and I spent 17 days in Europe. We not only had a beautiful time, it was a real eye-opener, seeing the United States from the outside. I was just grateful that no one stoned us. Actually, almost everyone was very warm and welcoming.. yeah, I know.. they wanted our money. But I did get the feeling that there's more goodwill toward Americans than the United States.

I wish I was as confident as you are that if we simply ignore polarization that it will somehow be swept away. I think there are plenty of examples in history that ignoring something, and not speaking out doesn't always make it go away.

Nice to hear from you port-siders on this. (Is port on the right, or left and does it make any difference if you're standing on your head?)

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Polarization
From: leftydee
Date: 17 Feb 06 - 04:33 PM

Great thread, Jerry. There's no reason we can't all state ours views and even disagree without name calling. I'm glad you're back, my friend!

Bob

I'm listening to The Gospel In Black And White right now. It's GREAT!

Subject: RE: BS: Polarization
From: Bert
Date: 17 Feb 06 - 06:19 PM

Clinton, you said..."choose to respect each other"

Respect those who by their actions prove themselves WORTH respecting

I think it should be the other way around. First give everyone common respect and then ignore those who by their actions prove unworthy of respect. (of course you're allowed to tease them a little - especially if they are thin skinned.)

Subject: RE: BS: Polarization
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Feb 06 - 06:44 PM

"But I did get the feeling that there's more goodwill toward Americans than the United States."

We keep hoping you will get your Government under control of the people, not Big Business.

Subject: RE: BS: Polarization
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Feb 06 - 06:45 PM

It has become near-impossible to carry on a reasonable conversation in here because there is so little respect for those who don't agree with the often judgmental and confrontational titles of threads.

Let me get this right. You are saying here that anyone who is offended by or posts to judge someone elses's chosen thread title to be judgmental or confrontational is to be respected for this????

What sort of 'reasonable' conversation would you expect to ever result from one that starts with you posting to judge someone else's chosen title to be wanting in any way? Are you showing any respect to the poster by such actions?

Not judging a book by its cover is a useful piece of advice and not making personl judgements about named fellow posters is also good advice for our forum. These include the making of any personal judgements in public - even or perhaps especially the sucking-up ones......

Subject: RE: BS: Polarization
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Feb 06 - 06:53 PM

And, Jerry, 130 state and local governemnts have enacted higher minimum wage levels since 2000... That took bi-partisanhip... And some states have even gone as far insuring that all their citizens have health care!!! These are big developements that don't come from polarized communities...

The local and state governemnts will have to lead the way...

Think globally, act locally...

It ain't as bad as it seems...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Polarization
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 17 Feb 06 - 08:26 PM

Hey, Bobert:

Ya know, I REALLY respect people what puts their money where their mouth is (hmmm... another old saying.) It's one thing to talk about how terrible things are, but a totally different thing to get to work and try to change them. They's folks that "talks the talk" but don't "walk the walk." "Talk is cheap.." dang, them old sayings just keep popping up. But, if it's just talk, it's pretty much a waste of time. My youngest son has been very disturbed about both national parties, and as I've mentioned he voted Green Party last time. He is still trying to figure out how he can make a difference in people's lives, and is now getting involved on a local level. Sometimes it seems hopeless for one person to influence the national parties. I think that my son is following the same path that you are, Bobert... trying to make a difference locally, and then maybe that can make a difference in the state where he lives. I make sure to tell him how much I respect him for what he is trying to do.

Mudcat is great (mostly,) but it is still squiggly black lines on a white screen. Whenever we can take what we believe away from these keyboards and put it into action then we can accomplish something.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Polarization
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Feb 06 - 08:32 PM

Tell yer son to check out his local "Main Street" porgram if he hasn't allready done that, Jerry... It's a great organization and if you have a good idea, most likely it will get acted upon... And if yer son has any political aspirations, having a "Main Strret" background will help him, irregardless of party affiliation...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Polarization
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 17 Feb 06 - 09:21 PM

Good to know, Bobert... maybe you can PM me and tell me more about the Main Street program and how my son can check it out.. he's started attending meetings of the Progressive Party, out of curiosity.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Polarization
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 18 Feb 06 - 12:52 AM

Our town, Peru, Illinois, has a statue of an old-timey fiddler right in the center of town. Well, she's an OLD fiddler from the 1800s---Maude Powell, born here and left when she was five years old. Took her fiddle all around the world doing recitals & concerts---and made quite a name for herself as she made her way. (Yeah, it was classical music, but nice anyhow.) And, lo and behold, her statue is the reason for a Maude Powell music festival where so many are finding out about the classics that never would've heard that music otherwise. Sure, I'd rather it was an old-timey music fiddler up there. But what the hell, it's a foot in the door---and seeds are being planted. --- Thanks for the thread Mr. Rasmussen !

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Polarization
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Feb 06 - 07:21 AM

"130 state and local governemnts have enacted higher minimum wage levels since 2000"

AH! So NOW we Aussies know why Johnnie Howard wanted to override all State Laws about wages and employment conditions (using the 'external trade' powers in the consitiution) - we know he has failed second rate burnt out ex-US advisors!

Subject: RE: BS: Polarization
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 19 Feb 06 - 06:40 AM

I have a technical question. Is there an un-applause button? I'd like to un-applause Martin Gibson. While his attacks are less obscene then they were at his worst, they are still relentless and self-important. I have no way of knowing whether the diminishment in obscenities is a change in his way of expressing himself, stricter moitoring or a response to warnings that he's received in private from Joe. I suspect that if we were sitting in Joe's shoes(unless they are very large, they wouldn't be comfortable to sit in) we'd see things very differently. We only see what we are allowed to see. And I applaud Joe and his fellow compatriots for weeding out most of the garbage before we ever see it.

Now, Martin couldn't be Martin if his primary targets didn't endlessly engage him in an interchange of insults. It long ago passed the "Ma!, He started it" or "Martin's on my side of the seat" stage. I don't think that there's any question who "started it." Martin brags about starting it and causing all the turmoil he does.
And still does. The posts may be less obscene (everything is relative) but the motivation hasn't changed.

So, Martin... the best I can offer is one hand clapping. The sound of silence.

Sorry

Maybe next time.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Polarization
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Feb 06 - 07:10 AM

I suspect that if we were sitting in Joe's shoes(unless they are very large, they wouldn't be comfortable to sit in) we'd see things very differently. We only see what we are allowed to see. And I applaud Joe and his fellow compatriots for weeding out most of the garbage before we ever see it.

As we are are only allowed (by our fellow poster Joe Offer ) to see what we are allowed to see - the idea that what we are not allowed to see must be truly terrible - is something that we will just have to take on trust......

Perhaps the bogey man we are being protected from by this imposed if selective censorhip is not so bad at all? I suspect that some of us would still be making needless public judgements by applauding this selfless sacrifice by Joe and his anonymous fellow posters for interfering with matters that are none of their concern.

The idea that our forum's problem are only the various and ever changing personal targets of Joe, his adoring fan club and anonymous fellow posters and their imposed judgement - is simplistic and dangerous to anyone who values the essential freedom of expression on which this public discussion forum was set up for by Max on his website.

Subject: RE: BS: Polarization
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Feb 06 - 08:22 AM

Jerry,

The phrase you are looking for is

"Ma, he hit me back first"

Subject: RE: BS: Polarization
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 19 Feb 06 - 02:01 PM

LOL, Fooles: Why didn't you tell me that sixty years ago?

In here it would probably be "Ma, he made me want to hit him!"

Jerry