BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 05:32 PM

That's nothing. MOAB is closing on 12000, and is as relavent as ever....

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 05:10 PM

That is an amazing story, LH--proving that, after 840 odd posts in this thread, there are still compelling contributions to be made--

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 04:51 PM

Yes, I know you resent it, Bill, but I've been observing this hard-like-a-rock faith in both the mystically-inclined and the scientifically inclined all my life...and I have waxed cynical about it.

Remember, my father is an engineer and his brother was a nuclear physicist on the Manhattan Project, both of them very opinionated men with no spiritual inclinations whatsoever... ;-) I have observed both of them being blatantly wrong about any number of things on many, many occasions. Why? Because they had a rock-hard opinion, based on partial knowledge or even NO knowledge of the subject under discussion, supported by a great deal of faith that the view they already had MUST be the only right view. Once they voiced that opinion, once it sprang from their lips, they clung to it against all reason, because of faith...and the natural desire of any ego to defend its chosen ground.

People with opinions are blockheads. They search out whatever shreds of information they can find to support their opinion. They discount or ignore what does not support it. They are almost impermeable to anything that doesn't support it. They have no patience for another point of view. They are NOT truly objective.

Here's an interesting thing, Bill. My father said that he saw the spirits of men leaving their bodies when they were killed in front of him in WWII during fierce combats with the Germans.

"What did it look like?" I asked.

"It looked like the person," he said, "like a cloudy image of the person leaving the body."

"So then what happened?"

"It just moved a few feet out of the body and then vanished."

"Did they look aware of the situation?"

"Yes. They looked very upset or shocked, usually."

"What do you make of it? Do you think it indicates there is a soul that survives the death of the body?"

"Well....(shaking his head and grinning to indicate his unwillingness to buy anything THAT way-out)....I don't think so...I think whatever consciousness was there when a person was alive just disperses at death and vanishes, but I'll tell you this. The body that remains is just a piece of meat. The person you knew is simply not there any more, and you can feel that right away."

Now, Bill, the truly incredible thing about all that is THIS: That experience prompted NO curiosity in my father about anything spiritual in the years and decades that followed. None. He remained, as he had been before, a person who is only interested in material, verifiable, tactile stuff, science, math, engineering, machinery, physics, etc...

I ask myself, how CAN a person have an experience like that and not be at least curious about whether or not there is a soul that survives death?????? How could that be?

Faith. That's how. Rock-hard faith in his familiar view of reality. And the sheer tenacity of the average human ego to cling to its established opinions...no matter what. That's faith.

My father, to this day, has shown no interest in spiritual matters of any kind, and I'm sure he never will.

As for his brother, the man had the spiritual abilities of a potatoe and a personality so arrogant and nasty and unpleasant that being around him was no pleasure for anyone. He may have known a lot about physics, but when it came to human relationships he was a complete idiot. I would call that spiritual ignorance of the highest order.

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 04:30 PM

BB,

" explained in terms of interpretaition, co-incidence, and the placebo effect."--none of those constitute explanations--i.e., if you say, "Oh, that's the placebo effect!", it doesn't explain anything, because the placebo effect is unexplained. If you say, "That's a just a co-incidence!", it means that that the fact that these things coincided is an explanation of the fact that they happened at the same time--in other words, circular logic--

"interpretation" is begging the question, because it is simply saying, "Well, that's what *you* think!"--

The real issue is that the movement of the stars and the planets can be quantified and qualified, but the interior movements of the human mind cannot--

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: *daylia*
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 04:23 PM

That's right, James.

ANd Bill, I disagree with what you said about materialism, reductionism, nihilism. All of the physical sciences have been based on the concept of materialism for centuries, ever since the apple fell on Newton's head. From materialism arose reductionism and nihilism, (among other "modern" scientific beliefs, fallacies and falsehoods). Granted, many great advancements in medicine, in astronomy and physics etc have been achieved since then, changes which have improved the quality of life and been of great benefit to many (but certainly not all) people - BUT - the attitudes and technologies spawned from a highly materialistic, nihilistic scientific approach continue pose an ever-growing threat to this planet and every living thing on it.

And as to who the "teachers" are who promote this type of narrow, simplistic, fallacious thinking -- well, I'm no "young one" but in my life, you've certainly been one of them Bill! Your opinions as expressed on threads like these are indeed based on materialism, empiricism, reductionism, even a dash of nihilism (ie all alleged metaphysical truths or values are illusory) now and then.

Or at least, that's how it appears to this reader!

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 03:43 PM

We have something that cannot be proved to the satisfaction on the other side ( for want of a better term) either to be real or imaginary)

The Astrologists belive there is a real connection between the astrological chart and a persons life. The Scientists ( again, both names chosed to be fair, in the lack of a better option) belive tyhere is no connection between a persons astrological chart that cannot be explained in terms of interpretaition, co-incidence, and the placebo effect.


The question of faith arises very simply. Do you believe in something witout any proof in it, or in someing with no proof in it, but no positive proof against it?

Unless astrologers start to make claims that can be tested, rather than general statements that can be fitted to anyone with a following wind, this will never, ever be settled.


James.

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 03:38 PM

M.Ted...nope, the impulse to debate is not 'irresistable'...I avoid more of thse threads than I jump into. I even stayed away from THIS one for quite awhile...

A negative view? Meaning that I choose to point out places I consider weak reasoning or based on incorrect information? Gukity, I guess..*grin*...but if 'negative' refers to my basic attitude towards life, people or discussion in general...nope, I don't think so.


ummmm..*daylia*...sorry, but Nihilism is hardly part of 'modern scientific philosophy'...and Reductionism and Materialism are almost never used as basic tenets. They are mostly labels used by opponents of certain ideas to paint them as rigid, narrow viewpoints. Even if the opponents were correct, that does not make those views 'fallacies', it only suggests that they are simplistic.

And who do you say are 'drumming' such narrow concepts into our young one's heads? If I found any teacher doing this I would confront them just as assidiuosly as I confront you on certain ideas. I have had some pretty narrow teachers in my time, but never encountered one preaching THOSE gospels. YMMV

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: bobad
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 03:26 PM

Propoganda is not available in the general English dictionary and thesaurus

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: *daylia*
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 03:22 PM

I am making it a point from now on to call people like Bill and Alice on their slanted writing and propoganda whenever I see it, Ted. My objections are logical and philosophical, not astrological. I have no use for distorted thinking, falsehood, emotional manipulation, lies or half-truths. To clarify what I mean by slant and propoganda ---

From Websters:

Slant (arrghh for the second time on this thread)

- a peculiar or personal point of view, or opinion: ANGLE (stories slanted toward youth); especially to maliciously or dishonestly distort and falsify

Propoganda

- the spreading of opinions, ideas, information or rumours for the purpose of helping or injuring a person, cause or institution

- ideas, facts or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause: also: a public action having such an effect ...

- In the 20th and 21st centuries, it came to mean "inculcation of correct political views" [and to be] associated with the prumulgation of subversive political and economic ideas by revolutionary groups."

Propogandist groups or individuals use language heavily laden with negative images and emotion (ie language intended to manipulate and arouse public fears) - as well as highly selective, distorted (ie one-sided) reporting of information. Hitler and Stalin and hey, even George Bush are examples of master propogandists. Surely we can do better, here on Mudcat!

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: *daylia*
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 02:50 PM

It's kinda disheartening to have it all classified as "just another type of faith". That's another example of what I mention over & over as 'equivocation' in the use of a word.


I'm sorry to dishearten you even more then, Bill, but here are just a few of the basic tenets of modern scientific philosophy that are, in essence, nothing more than faith or belief.

Materialism: matter alone exists; everything else (notably minds or spirits and their ideas and experiences) are analyzable in terms of matter.

Reductionism: The reducing of certain kinds of entities, or of theories, or even of whole sciences, to other, more basic, ones; ie identifying the mind with physical substances or properties and claiming that psychological theory is reducible to scientific theory. For example, the belief that all of psychology is reducible to neurophysiology, and in turn, neurophysiology is reducible all the way (perhaps via other special higher-order sciences, like chemistry) down to physics, thus "proving" (??) that mind is nothing above and beyond the physical.

Nihilism: the rejection of all traditional values; 'nothingism'; all knowledge is impossible, or all alleged metaphysical truths or values are illusory, or that ethical values cannot be given any foundation and so are arbitrary.

Even in this century of quantum mechanics and chaos theory, fallacies like these still form the basis of modern science, in spite of the fact that they have never been (and probably can never be) empirically demonstrated as 'fact' or 'truth' by scientists or anyone else. THey are drummed in the minds of Westerners at the earliest possible age, and trotted out regularly as ammunition against conflicting, more holistic and comprehensive world-views, beliefs and philosophies.

I do find this quite frustrating and disheartening, but only on bad hair days.    ;-]

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 02:01 PM

" you often seem to be irresistably drawn into discussions re the occult and like subjects. You are driven subconsciously to understand and explore and develope these areas, for the sake of balance and personal growth -- but you consciously fear, resent and resist this. And so your contributions to such discussions are rooted more in emotion than in reason - hence your use of slant and propoganda."

Well, Bill, for whatever reason, there is a certain amount of truth in this! ;-) You *are* irresisitable drawn into discussions of the occult(like this one!)--and it is always to express a negative view, which, from the occult point of view, anyway, is "slant and propaganda"--not the way you might protray yourself, but...

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 01:59 PM

LH..I sort of resent(intellectually, not emotionally) the suggestion that 'faith' is being employed by both sides. The whole point of one side is NOT to rely on faith & belief, and to just define & dismiss that view with some linguistic twist and say that all 'opinion' or 'conclusion' is just one form of faith or belief is not only inaccurate, but unfair. I work very hard at formulating my attitudes and (often tentative) opinions based on logic, as much 'fact' as I can glean, and non-ambiguous language. It's kinda disheartening to have it all classified as "just another type of faith". That's another example of what I mention over & over as 'equivocation' in the use of a word.

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: *daylia*
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 01:57 PM

PS   for a great example of selective thinking and bias, notice how Bill simply ignores all the descriptions I posted that are, obviously, very highly accurate -- to anyone who knows him even just superficially, like myself.

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: *daylia*
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 01:45 PM

Oops, I did, too! (get it backwards, I mean).

Don't worry, you can't "lose" your chakras, Bill, any more than you can "lose" your brain or your heart or your skin. If you did, you'd be pushin up daisies.

So, you don't like your birthchart because it dares to describe those aspects of your psyche that you are still largely unaware of? Do you really think there no aspects of your psyche which are subconscious, unconscious, unrealized, unaccepted, undeveloped?

If that's the case, you really don't have much of a clue about even the most basic tenets of psychology, least of all your own unique inner makeup, drives and needs. And you will never be able to use the insights of astrology, or hope to understand how or why it works. I do hope you never need a psychologist, for the psychologists sake. But if you do, better leave your darts and markers at home!

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 01:34 PM

There is an equal amount of faith being demonstrated by the advocates on both sides of this debate. ;-) (as always)

That's because, as someone said, "belief is very powerful".

I think "live and let live" is a good credo to live by.

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 01:21 PM

" Bill's trademark line - "first you draw the circle, then you shoot the dart"."

*grin*...got it backwards!

about this paragraph:

"All those 12 house placements -- including your sun -- indicate, to me, a person whose inner life is largely subconscious. This placement often tells of very strong psychic abilities, and an attraction toward the occult - those "hidden" areas of knowledge and exploration. I'd say these abilities and attractions constitute your "shadow side" -- the less developed, less acceptable (to you), and largely unrecognized aspects of your own personality which fights for a valued place in your life at the same time as it disrupts your professional, logical, philosophical self-image most uncomfortably."

This is a very good example of what I see over & over in these chart analyses...it 'indicates' something that I see as pretty far off-the-mark...and then to cover all the bases, suggests that if I do NOT manifest those tendencies openly, I am probably hiding or sublimating them. wow...I really can't win.

This reminds me of an example my college Psychology prof once offered...."Those Freudians," he said, "they have you no matter what you do." He took out a pen and tapped it on the desk, flipping and reversing it..."If I do this, they say I am doing something dirty..." ..He put it back in his pocket.."But if I put it away, I am repressing something dirty!"

and THIS:" you often seem to be irresistably drawn into discussions re the occult and like subjects. You are driven subconsciously to understand and explore and develope these areas, for the sake of balance and personal growth -- but you consciously fear, resent and resist this. And so your contributions to such discussions are rooted more in emotion than in reason - hence your use of slant and propoganda."
.....wow....if I don't like those areas, it's subconcious, and if I use my concious 'prejudices', it is just emotional propoganda. Pinned to the wall like a fly, I am! You got me! I really have a deep desire to appreciate the occult and Astrology, but I just repress & resist and hide it with slanted, prejudiced arguments! I now SEE how muddled and confused I am, contradicting my basic nature that way.

I'd better go off and meditate on my chakras and repent....now where DID I put those chakras?

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: *daylia*
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 12:58 PM

bobad - Scientifically testable / schizophrenically observable or no, synchronicity is still the best theory I've come across yet explaining why and how astrology works.

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: bobad
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 12:52 PM

"Since the theory of synchronicity is not testable according to the classical scientific method, it is not widely regarded as scientific at all, but rather as pseudoscientific or an example of magical thinking. However, it is doubtful that Jung would have considered the theory to be scientifically testable."

"Aspects of the subjective experience of schizophrenia have much in common with the subjective experience of synchronicity, in the sense that ordinary events are seen as having a direct personal relevance to the schizophrenic, but are seen as 'normal' by non-schizophrenics. Many psychoses are similar to schizophrenia but can last for a very short time, such as in rare instances from nicotine withdrawal (as an example) causing the same effect even with a non-schizophrenic."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronicity

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: *daylia*
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 12:37 PM

The problem is, no one has ever yet offered a reasonable explanation of why or how the patterns of astronomical bodies can either predict OR indicate tendencies and potentials for individual humans.

Well I wanted to be outta here, but I can't resist Bill's posts ... :-)

Bill, I think Carl G, Jung can shed some light on this for you ...

"The collective unconscious...appears to consist of mythological motifs or primordial images, for which reason the myths of all nations are its real exponents. In fact the whole of mythology could be taken as a sort of projection of the collective unconscious. We can see this most clearly if we look at the heavenly constellations, whose originally chaotic forms are organized through the projection of images. This explains the influence of the stars as asserted by astrologers. These influences are nothing but unconscious, introspective perceptions of the collective unconscious."

"We are born at a given moment in a given place and like vintage years of wine we have the qualities of the year and of the season in which we are born. Astrology does not lay claim to anything else."

"...the journey through the planetary houses boils down to becoming conscious of the good and bad qualities in our character, and the apotheosis means no more than maximum freedom of will."

"Astrology is one of the intuitive methods like the I Ching, geomantics, and other divinatory procedures. It is based upon the synchronicity principle, i.e. meaningful coincidence. ... Astrology is a naively projected psychology in which the different attitudes and temperaments of man are represented as gods and identified with planets and zodiacal constellations."

-- Carl G. Jung   (source here)

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 12:36 PM

If you really believe all the stuff you just said, Alice, t could be said that you are attributing all of those things to astrology because you are unable to see the real, underlying causes, and astrology is a a convenient bogeyman that you have conjured up because you need to find an "explanation"--this would make you the irrational "believer" --

I presume, because you are from a "Logical" family, that you are making these assertions for the purpose of argumentation and don't really believe that you are able to "see" why people do things--

You believe that astrology is wrong --so you misinterpret what people are saying here completely--many of the people who seem to you to have a "determined faith" (like me) have no particular stake in astrology at all, and are simply advocating toleration for different systems of thought-

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: *daylia*
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 12:25 PM

Aw shoot, I didn't mean to bold all that    sorry    :-[

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: *daylia*
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 12:22 PM

Bill, out of curiousity I finally looked up your chart at Astrodienst.

I'm not going into a full analysis here -- (I'm not a professional astrologer anyway) -- but I will say that the first thing that caught my eye was that powerful stellium (4 planets - Sun, Mercury, Uranus, and Venus) all in the sign of Taurus, in the 12th house. This house represents those areas of life which go beyond the individual personality. The boundaries between the conscious and the unconscious dissolve, as well as the boundaries between human beings.

Here's what one professional astrologer had to say about people with this placement --- (can't find that URL again, sorry)

"Charts with three or more planets in the 12th house, or one of the lights and an angular house ruler posited in this house, are frequently found among physicians, nurses, professors and others who work in hospitals or universities. A well-tenanted 12th house is also common among writers who must spend time alone working with their imagination and their mind, tuning into the muses. Very talented, very tragic people, like Judy Garland and Janis Joplin, and the notorious propagandist, Tokyo Rose, had many planets in their 12th houses.

Pierre Teillard de Chardin, a Jesuit priest and monk, achieved distinction in paleontology and geology. He was acclaimed for his scientific and genetic research, and wrote spiritually philosophical works. The title of one of the best known of these was "To Build the Earth." He had a stellium in Taurus, including the Sun and Moon in Gemini, all in the 12th house."

Professor Bill, you also have Moon in Gemini. Git yourself into more writing asap, mate!   ;-)

All those 12 house placements -- including your sun -- indicate, to me, a person whose inner life is largely subconscious. This placement often tells of very strong psychic abilities, and an attraction toward the occult - those "hidden" areas of knowledge and exploration. I'd say these abilities and attractions constitute your "shadow side" -- the less developed, less acceptable (to you), and largely unrecognized aspects of your own personality which fights for a valued place in your life at the same time as it disrupts your professional, logical, philosophical self-image most uncomfortably.   

THis could be why, as LH pointed out earlier, you often seem to be irresistably drawn into discussions re the occult and like subjects. You are driven subconsciously to understand and explore and develope these areas, for the sake of balance and personal growth -- but you consciously fear, resent and resist this. And so your contributions to such discussions are rooted more in emotion than in reason - hence your use of slant and propoganda.

Here's what Astrodienst has to say about those powerful 12th house placements:

Mercury was in the twelfth house at the time of birth. Psychologically you are continually trying to analyze others in order to find their motivation. A natural human researcher, you spend time projecting your interests and in faultfinding. It may be very desirable to reverse these tendencies and turn your mind's eye on your inner self. There are many good things about your mind; it is alert and subtle. It is very intellectual really, but you do have some talent for understanding the exotic. There is not much place in the world for your practical and efficient knowledge. This can lead you to anxiety, worry, self- depreciation, and an intense absence of self esteem. Feel more, think less, work harder."

Dunno about the self-esteem bit (I'm sure you do though!), but the rest of it sure sounds like the Bill we know and Love! Also, about Mercury in your chart: (Mercury symbolized the intellect and how you communicate with others)

"With Mercury conjunct Uranus, you are bright, articulate, curious, intuitive, and mentally courageous. You are excited by everything you observe and fascinated by anything different or unusual.

Truth is an important factor in your life. Consequently, science, philosophy, psychology, and sociology are fields in which you could succeed, since they deal with seeking answers to problems. "


Gee, doesn't sound like you at all, eh?   ;-} Your Mercury is conjunct Venus, too ....

"The conjunction of Mercury and Venus shows that you have an affable manner and social grace. You get along well with most people because you know when you should make compromises in order to maintain harmony. You know how to express your opinions skillfully so that no one feels threatened or intimidated by you, and you are resourceful in gathering information to document what you say.

You could find enjoyment in public speaking or the dramatic arts. Writing could also prove satisfying because you have a natural talent for expressing yourself well. Your imaginative style is fresh and charming and appeals to people who want to be entertained as well as informed"

I'd agree with most of that. You are a likeable person, Bill - except that you do have this self-defeating tendency to mislead yourself and others through use of logical fallacy (slant, propoganda), when you allow powerful and mostly subconscious emotions (ie fear, pride) to override your logical mind.

Saturn is conjunct that powerful 12th house stellium in Taurus as well - but it's in the 11th house, in Aries. According to Astrodienst --

" Psychologically, this [Saturn placement] denotes a rather hidden and limited view of your personal ambitions, your friendships, and of your future. You're very ambitious, cautious, just, patient, responsible, but perhaps, too serious.

You are strongly attached to your own point of view, and if challenged, you will fight very hard for your opinions. You are much more likely to fight for an ideal than for yourself. On one hand, you can be quite self-righteous and narrowly fanatical about your beliefs, but you can also be courageous in defending the rights of those who are downtrodden ... Try not to get so wrapped up in your own views that you won't even consider someone else's."

Fanatical? Hmmm ... sounds right. Kinda like Alice's tales of impending horror and woe. People are good at seeing only what they expect, only what they want to see, only what fits with their private view of the world, however incomplete or fallacious or biased that view may be. And this type of behaviour is a great example of Bill's trademark line - "first you draw the circle, then you shoot the dart".

Anyhoo -- I'm outta here for a bit. It's been fun ... and nice chart, Bill!

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: *daylia*
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 12:00 PM

I've seen people marry and divorce spouses based on astrology, move to another part of the world, give up careers, education, family and home. I've seen an entire church based on astrology that separated children from parents, elderly from their retirement funds, caused mass hysteria (the planets portending the end of the world), and years of mental distress that took a long time for people to recover from, having to leave behind what the astrologer told them they were and learning instead how unique and complex and undefined by charts they really were. Belief is very powerful

Yes it is, And so are bias, preconceptions, prejudice, propoganda, fear and ignorance.

I've been studying astrology off and on for about 25 years now - mostly on my own, once in a local class. I have never yet seen a single soul harmed by studying or using astrology. I have, however, known many people who've gained much -- becoming happier, healthier, more self-aware, self-determined and productive people through the insights astrology offers.

I've never heard of a church based on astrology, or even known a single person who treated astrology as 'religion'. In short, I've never known any person or group of people who acted as stupidly or ridicuously as you describe.

Where do you live, pray tell?   In the bad ole American Bible Belt?

If you are really telling the truth here, Alice, and not just spewing out more vicious bs (read propoganda) in an attempt to scare readers away from this subject, you have my compassion. I'm grateful I live nowhere near you, or all these pathetically deluded lamebrains who've (supposedly) ruined their lives with the evils (LOL!!) of astrology.

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 11:57 AM

"Bill D - When you say you've looked at your charts, can you say more?"

yes, I had a serious amateur 'do' my charts a number of years ago, and I have from time to time looked at various published sources...from silly newspaper blather to detailed attempts to explain the relevance, much as *daylia* has done. And I went to the site she noted and entered my data and read the results. From those sources, I have looked at various formulations of my 'potential' and 'indicators'.

What I see over & over are slippery generalizations that are easy to apply and which, with a little imagination, seem applicable and even useful as advice......but the advice offered is usually reasonable for almost anyone, and the 'indications' that are supposed to relevant to my particular chart are off the mark just as often as they are on.

*daylia* just chided me for not paying more attention to they ones that do 'seem' relevant...".. did it slip your mind that we also find many 'correlations' in data that are highly significant and meaningful?...", but the point I was trying to make was that 'correlations' are only a way to establish points for further research to see if we can find causal or predictive factors that validate the correlation and justify collection of more data in that area. (obviously, the professors salaries and alcohol consumption data did not remain closely linked over time, and faded out as 'relevant' when other data sets were considered.)

   In Astrology, it is possible to assign relevance in such a way that you will always discover seemingly meaningful patterns, just as meaningful patterns were 'discovered' in text analysis and explained in such books as "The Da Vinci Code"...but with enough analysis, patterns can be 'discovered' in ANY lengthy text...from the Bible to "War & Peace" to "The Joy of Cooking".

The problem is, no one has ever yet offered a reasonable explanation of why or how the patterns of astronomical bodies can either predict OR indicate tendencies and potentials for individual humans.

Practioners will tell you that 'how' & 'why' are not the point...that the point is to SEE and USE, no matter why it works. They explain that thousands of years of study have discovered the patterns, and it would be folly to ignore useful information...etc...(and that the stars do not actually 'cause' stuff to happen, but merely show one's tendencies and indicate potentials). But as I said above, this indicating and potentializing is dependant on subjective (yes-SUBJECTIVE!) analysis of arbitrary data and relies on techniques that are only useful within the Astrological 'rules' system...the system breaks down when subjected to stringent assessments of both statistical analysis and scientific method.........but, as we have seen, practitioners simply state that their subject matter is outside the realm of those physical realms...

can't win...

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: bobad
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 10:30 AM

"No amount of logic can sway a determined faith"

That is the truly frightening aspect of it all.

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Alice
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 10:15 AM

The way humans create myths in search of a sense of self understanding is very interesting to me. For me, the most interesting thing about this thread is how strong that adherance to belief can be. No amount of logic can sway a determined faith. I've seen people marry and divorce spouses based on astrology, move to another part of the world, give up careers, education, family and home. I've seen an entire church based on astrology that separated children from parents, elderly from their retirement funds, caused mass hysteria (the planets portending the end of the world), and years of mental distress that took a long time for people to recover from, having to leave behind what the astrologer told them they were and learning instead how unique and complex and undefined by charts they really were. Belief is very powerful.

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: autolycus
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 05:51 AM

I'm only not responding to every last objection that has been raised so far to astrology because
a) I can't remember them all - remind me if they are still important
b) Many can be answered by looking at a serious introduction to astrology (I think Jeff Mayo, certainly the Parkers, probably Oken,several others), e.g.the precession of the equinoxes (why use every bit of cyberspace reinventing the wheel?)
c) If questions come from the 'deaf who will not hear', well, would you bother? For my part,I'll repeat that I have a high regard for science which saved my life.

Bill D - When you say you've looked at your charts, can you say more? In no way am I doubting your word, just, as we say in Gestalt, following my curiosity.


I suspect the different astrological systems around the world reflect the respective truths of their respective cultures. Rather as the truths that a Beethoven or a Louis Armstrong reflect truths of our society, less so (as distinct from 'not at all') for others.
So our astrology works in our culture because it is the astrology of our culture, built out of OUR OBSERVATIONS SINCE REMOTE ANTIQUITY and out of our experiences.


There may be a need in cyberspace to repeat points because here they easily get overlooked.

So I wish to repeat that there are AS FEW GOOD ASTROLOGERS in our society AS GOOD ANYTHING ELSE.

Alice - when I was talking about the real facts of a person's experience, the kind of thing I had in mind is if they say,"I have a violent temper", or if they just do talk softly, or if they relate readily with people who are highly imaginative. Those sorts of characteristics seem to me to be , not how thewy've been taught to be, just 'facts of their real experience'.

I notice (also as we say in the Gestalt world) that no-one has responded to the fact that astrology is used out in the world even by such hard nosed, bottom-liners as businesspeople.

Incidentally,I thought there were people here with a belief in God, some of whom also had a scientific background,and who had been casting aspersions on astrology as lacking scientific credibility. It is to them that I was asking where the proof was of God's existence. Pointing at the universe and saying,'there's your evidence', doesn't look to this philosophy student like any kind of a scientific proof of God's existence.

It is interesting to cast doubt on the idea of a 'God' as a creator, even tho' that would contradict the opening words of the Bible.


I'd also like to say how much I appreciate the seriousness and care that have posters are now employing compared to the early days of the thread. I wonder how GUEST Martini is.


    Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 11:56 PM

The usual definition of "wrong" is "different than the way we do it at our house"--

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: *daylia*
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 09:25 PM

Here's an interesting scholarly 'take' on astrology by Alain Negre, professor of electronics at the University of Grenoble, France A Transdisciplinary Approach to Science and Astrology

"Summary : In the present state of contemporary knowledge, one recognizes a certain "astrological phenomenon". Apparently, an order exists which underlies the world and may be experienced through the perusal of our birth chart, the latter reflecting the fathomless structures of our interiority. Nonetheless, with the emergence of scientific thought three centuries ago, astrology was met with new difficulties as it tried to coexist with novel approaches to apprehending the "real". In fact, the very validity of astrology is repudiated by those who conceive of a sole level to reality (which they believe science to reveal) even though physics has recently proved the existence of at least two levels to reality. As a reaction, astrology closes itself off to scientific discourse, or, conversely, dresses itself up as a science. In an attempt to sort through the conflicts between science and astrology, this article explores the unconscious foundations which gave birth to astrology. It draws from what C.G. Jung called the symbolic function and originates in the "place" of the soul where mind and matter may potentially reunite."

I haven't given the whole article the attention it deserves as yet (just found it today!), but this passage is particularly relevant here ...

"... The individual who meditates on his planetary blueprint does find adequacy between the representation of the universe at his moment of birth and his inner life. But, as far as astrology is concerned, this remains a correspondence of symbolic proportions. And no symbolic system of interpretation is absolutely true, the symbol being characterized by its polysemy and multivocal abundance. The symbol's opaque language opens to infinite interpretations. Unlike scientific language which seeks to explain and give account of natural phenomena, symbolic language such as that of astrology demands interpretation and guides us towards the core of our interiority. The natal chart is not a conventional representation. It is a path of a hidden meaning, the meaning of a new unity through which we merge with the archetypal structure of our very being."

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: *daylia*
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 09:06 PM

I'm satisfied with the word 'connection', Bill. But just to humour you, did it slip your mind that we also find many 'correlations' in data that are highly significant and meaningful? Egads, maybe you're relapsing?!? You're not thinking of going all tilty and slanty on us again, are you? That's so boooooooring   such a waste of time and energy   no fun at all in fact    hmph :-[

There are many reasons why some parts of a natal report seem to fit better than others, as discussed at length    *yaaaawwwwn*       several times already on this thread. Remember? No, I suppose you wouldn't. Oh well. Anyone who's been around Mudcat for a couple days or so could accurately predict your trademark *yawwwwwn* (pardon me) reactions. Sans astrology or even peer-reviewed journals.

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 07:47 PM

I like that method, Bill! ;-) Sounds like American intelligence on WMD in Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 07:38 PM

"...there are connections between real experiences of people and their horoscopes..."

It might be better to say "we can find correlations between.".etc...

and, of course, it is true--we can. We can find many correlations in data that indicate almost nothing. At one time, someone discovered an almost perfect correlation between the rise of salaries of college professors and sales of alcohol in the US. It was fun to make jokes about, but no one, as far as I know, considered it to be either causal OR indicative.

I have looked at my 'charts', and found just as many misleading and non-applicable 'indications' as I did 'relevant' ones. Of course, if someone 'believes', they will just say I need to read deeper and get more learned interpretations.

*shrug* ...first you place the dart, then you draw the bullseye.

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 05:03 PM

Crazy girl! If I knew there was a machine like that around, I'd avoid it.

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: bobad
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 05:00 PM

While waiting at a bus stop for a bus, a woman stepped onto a weight machine that told your fortune and weight for a quarter. She put a quarter in, and out came a card that read, "Your age is 32, You weigh 135 lbs., and you play the fiddle."

She found the fortune amusing, since she didn't play the fiddle, but it did have her age correct. About that time, an old gentleman walked up carrying a fiddle. She asked him if she could see his fiddle. He agreed, and to their amazement, she started playing the fiddle with great natural skill. She wondered if the fortune machine had actually known something about her that she didn't. She thought about it, and decided to try the weight machine again. She put another quarter in the machine, and out comes the card that reads: "Your age is 32, you weigh 135 lbs., and you have gastritis."

She found this one to be absurd, as she was in perfect health, so she goes back to the bus-stop to wait for her bus. While sitting there, she develops abdominal pains that continue to get worse until all of a sudden she farts. She wondered about the fortune, and again was curious if the machine was capable of knowing stuff about her that she didn't know. She puts another quarter in the machine, and out comes a card that reads: "Your age is 32, you weigh 135 lbs., and you are about to have sex."

She laughed out loud, as she had been trying to find a decent guy to screw for weeks, with no luck. She is sitting there waiting for the bus,when this attractive young man sits down and immediately their eyes locked, and they both knew that they were right for each other. They quickly ducked down an alley and began to screw like two teenagers. The woman was so simply amazed at the ability of the machine, that she had to try it one more time. She stood on the machine, put her last quarter in, and out came a card that read: "Your age is 32, you weigh 135 lbs.,you've fiddled, you've farted, you've screwed around, and now you've missed your bus."

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 03:27 PM

I think everything in the Universe is one united thing that repeats itself, Daylia, like a hologram. Therefore, why should not such patterns of destiny be detectable in an astrological chart, a leaf, the wind, tea leaves, the palm, anywhere...if you have the awareness to spot it?

This doesn't mean that traditional astrology will make any sense according to the rules of science as we know them.

I've seen readings done by people who had a gift for it, and I was impressed. I've seen charts done by other people, and I was bored out of my skull. As far as I'm concerned, the practitioner is everything, and the system is a formality that someone made up...like a dance. It may appeal to your taste, it may not.

No, it doesn't matter if the subject of the chart believes in astrology or not. Not at all. What matters is that the practitioner has the right sensitivity to use the formal structure of the chart in such a way that it produces something meaningful. That's dependent on the practitioner, in my opinion, not on the system itself, but the system is a handy way of organizing the process....same as a tarot deck is...or any other such system.

Consciousness is the key to life. Formalized systems are just a way of translating consciousness into familiar symbols.

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: *daylia*
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 03:15 PM

Astrology works, when it does, not because of the astrological system, but because of the person doing the reading.

LH, as Ivor pointed out previously, "there are connections between real experiences of people and their horoscopes even where they have no astrological belief".

This is where astrology differs from psychic divination. The relationship between planetary transits (the passages of the planets over birth positions) and personal mood, attitude, behaviour, life cycles and events is ongoing throughout life, regardless of the individual's knowledge of or belief in astrology.
To observe this, people need only study their own *accurate* birthcharts and planetary transits over a period of time. Free birthcharts and up-to-the-minute information re planetary transits are instantly available online to any interested person today -- all that's required is accurate birth data.

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Alice
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 02:10 PM

I guess it comes down to what the definition of "wrong" is... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 01:06 PM

Anything becomes invalid if you have no idea what to do with it...or no inclination to.

Astrology works, when it does, not because of the astrological system, but because of the person doing the reading.

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: *daylia*
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 11:58 AM

Of course, just about any fool knows there are about as many present-day and historical variations of astrology as there are cultures on this planet!

DUH ...

Just as there are seemingly endless variations of religious beliefs and practices, musical instruments and genres, social customs, clothing styles, child-rearing customs, marriage laws, death rituals, culinary habits, war tools and techniques, sexual attitudes and practices etc etc etc. Do you think these cultural differences render any or all of these things 'invalid'? Or is it just astrology that's invalid, in your worldview?

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: M.Ted
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 11:54 AM

My comment was actually a wry comment, Alice--

As to your point about their being different astrological systems(and this is not a "wry" comment) this doesn't mean that meanings have been assigned arbitrarily and it doesn't mean that any interpretation is "wrong"--different cultures have different interpretations of things--this is probably a good way to clarify what "culture" is-

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: *daylia*
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 11:46 AM

It is the TEST that I do not see as being valid as showing the existance of a creator- NOT the results that I might or might not get.

?? Well, if you don't think the test itself is valid in any way shape or form, how could you see any results as valid??

I don't quite see what you're getting at. Did you think I was trying to be original? People have been doing 'tests' like this for thousands of years, at least! I've found that when I want the pleasure, benefit and comfort of a tangible, subjective, and yes very personal relationship with the 'divine Essence of the universe' (ie 'Creator'), expressing sincere and joyful gratitude as often as possible is the most reliable way to achieve that 'connection'.

But if an objectively valid, empirically repeatable, peer-reviewable, scientifically approvable 'proof' of 'Creator' is the only thing that will satisfy that hunger for truth, well, you're setting yourself up for starvation so to speak. Such a thing is still humanly impossible on this planet, at this time. And this may never change.

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Alice
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 11:46 AM

My friends and family and neighbors are educated, creative and logical people. My brothers are anthropologists. Having a large view of the world and different cultures and folklore and using critical thinking is pretty common around here.

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Alice
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 11:35 AM

Maybe pictures will help.
This site graphics of many constellation myths
shows pictures of how many different cultures looked at the stars and planets and created completely different symbols in the sky.

One of my first posts in this thread pointed out that what Europeans and Americans call astrology is based on an early 1900's British revival of the Chaldean zodiac. Why would the Chaldean zodiac be the only "true" astrological system? Why not the symbols and constellations of the Navajo who beleived something different? Why not the Lapplanders? Go to the link above and see the images of "the story about a great Cosmic Moose Hunting Scene. The large constellation, Sarva, the Moose, is composed of several Greek constellations — Cassiopeia, Perseus, and Auriga. In the Nordic Lapp folklore, Gemini, Orion, Ursa Major and other figures are hunting Sarva."

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 11:32 AM

Haven't noticed???? You haven't looked very hard. MANY cultures draw different diagrams of the sky and have different interpretations of the results. (Sorta similar to different notions of God, Heaven, Eternity and what is required to know them.)

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: *daylia*
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 11:25 AM

I'm amazed that so many people believe that there is only one version of astrology.

Are the 'many people' to whom you refer your family members, Alice? Perhaps your neighbours, friends, co-workers?

I haven't noticed anybody expressing such 'beliefs' here yet.

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Alice
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 11:20 AM

Studying myths and religions and symbols has been a life long interest for me. I'm amazed that so many people believe that there is only one version of astrology.

I go back to my point that how one creates symbols and myths and apply them to the planets is completely arbitrary, because if you look at how the North American cultures assigned qualities to the planets, you will see that in following the Mediterranean symbols you are ascribing, Greek myths, etc., you are giving characteristics to planets and constellations that are very different than characteristics applied by cultures in other parts of the world.


Alice

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 10:39 AM

"But certainly you couldn't have tried the 'test' as prescribed yet -- it's too soon. "

"PS TO test for the existence of 'Creator', try expressing (aloud or silently) sincere, joyful gratitude for your life to everything in the universe to which you literally owe that life, as often as possible (preferably constantly :-) for at least a day or so. Carefully monitor any change in perception, sensation, cognition, mood, attitude, relationship, well-being etc. Record observations in personal unpeer-reviewed journal. Ponder deeply. Repeat as desired. "


It might just be that some of us HAVE done this. As a "seeker after wisdom", there are many such "tests" that I have tried.

It is the TEST that I do not see as being valid as showing the existance of a creator- NOT the results that I might or might not get.

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: *daylia*
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 09:41 AM

Well, as human beings how can we 'know' anything, except via subjective personal perceptions and experience?

I posted that kinda tongue-in-cheek though, bearded bruce, knowing that scientifically valid 'tests' for the existence of 'Creator' are simply not possible to date, and may never be possible. But certainly you couldn't have tried the 'test' as prescribed yet -- it's too soon. Why not give it a shot and see what you think? It certainly can't harm you in any way, and it might even prove enlightening. Healthy. Beneficial.

Hey, maybe even fun too!

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 09:23 AM

800!

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 09:23 AM

and, btw,