BS: first europe observation

Subject: BS: first europe observation
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 11:56 AM

YOU CAN'T GO TO A RESTAURANT AND GET WATER WITHOUT BUYING IT.

In america, they give you all of the water you want and then some.

Subject: RE: BS: first europe observation
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 12:03 PM

MG -

Not a good generalization. In many places in the US you have to ask for water, and I've run into places that charged the same for a glass of water as for a glass of cola.

A few small "home-style" eating places in SE Kansas don't bother to serve water automatically, because the local water is so bad that it gags and sickens people not accustomed to it. They generally don't charge for it if you ask for a glass of the local stuff to chew on. They may or may not serve bottled water - in limited amounts - without charging. Even the ones that give you a free glass of something drinkable may demand payment if you want a second glass.

John

Subject: RE: BS: first europe observation
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 12:06 PM

Just ask for a glass of tapwater, it's quite safe to drink

Subject: RE: BS: first europe observation
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 12:22 PM

Most of his generalizations are way off track.

Subject: RE: BS: first europe observation
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 12:25 PM

I was in France on a trip once last century. We were at a restaurant, and the waiter almost had a stroke when one lady from South Africa asked for water. (If I recall correctly, water cost MORE than wine.) He went away, presumably to get it. When he didn't return in a reasonable amount of time, the woman went to the restroom and filled her glass with tap water. The waiter eventually returned to bring our meals - NOT to fill the woman's glass, and if you can imagine how indignant he appeared when she first asked, imagine the smug little old lady drinking (in a rather in-your-face manner, I must admit) her self-procured water in front of the amazingly silent, but quite purple, French waiter.

Subject: RE: BS: first europe observation
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 12:25 PM

You went to Europe and THAT'S what you remember? Sheesh! What about the beautiful architecture and art? The people who greated you warmly and welcomed you? It's like going to heaven and saying "The door knob on the Pearly Gate was rusty." :-)

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: first europe observation
From: Ernest
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 01:07 PM

This reminds me of the observations of Mr. Leary from Anne Tylers book "The accidental tourist" - could be entertaining. Keep it coming, Martin!

Best
Ernest

Subject: RE: BS: first europe observation
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 01:10 PM

As I mentioned on the other thread, I'll be interested to read what Martin has to say about his European observations. As we are beginning to see, it will say a lot more about Martin than it will about Europe.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: first europe observation
From: GUEST,martin gibson not signed in
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 01:11 PM

No, Jerry that was just a quick one.

i remember everything.

In Chicago they always fill your glass. In London and the other places you can ask and I have been charged. I made them take it off my bill. also, they make you buy bottled water.

A lot more to come on this and other stuff. No time now.

Subject: RE: BS: first europe observation
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 01:16 PM

"I made them take it off my bill." Oh, bravo, indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: first europe observation
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 01:20 PM

Who wants WATER? The beer is terrific - well, I have some question about the stuff I got in England...
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: first europe observation
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 02:01 PM

In Chicago they always fill your glass. In London and the other places you can ask and I have been charged. I made them take it off my bill. also, they make you buy bottled water.

This thread will go some way to explain anti american feeling in the UK that was recently the subject of a discussion on here.

Subject: RE: BS: first europe observation
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 02:11 PM

GUEST: 2:01 I don't see how the bad behavior of one individual out of 300 million, explains much of anything.

Subject: RE: BS: first europe observation
From: GUEST,An American traveller to Europe
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 02:37 PM

Jack, I'm pretty sure the number of US tourists going to or who have already been to Britain, does not exceed the entire US population, which as of today on the US population clock, stands at 298,574,928.

Methinks you've fallen a bit shy of the mark of the point you were trying to make.

But bravo to ye for not illuminating much of anything.

And trust me Jack, there are more than one or two US tourists behaving badly around the world at any given time.

However, I'm not certain they outnumber the UK tourists behaving badly around the world at any given time.

Subject: RE: BS: first europe observation
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 02:38 PM

Sometimes it's interesting to contrast the views of a newbie with those of a really experienced traveler.

If you want the real skinny on traveling in Europe, THIS fellow has had a LOT of European travel experience and knows whereof he speaks. He's a very sharp guy and he has some pretty interesting observations, which he's been sharing on radio and television a lot these days. His programs are full of great practical advice on how to get the most out of a European vacation and really enjoy yourself without acting like an "ugly American" and starting World War III—and how to learn something about—and from—other countries and cultures. He lives in and works out of Edmonds, Washington, just a short ride north of Seattle.

You might want to compare and contrast some of Rick's observations with what Martin has to say. For openers, try this one Clicky #1 (This is a long article, but it's well worth reading, and I think it ought to be mandatory reading for every American who is convinced that he or she lives in the greatest country in the world and that everybody else in the world wants to be an American).

Here's more:   Clicky #2

Don Firth

P. S. Some absolutely marvelous video clips from some of Rick's shows:    HERE. Happy travels!

Subject: RE: BS: first europe observation
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 03:26 PM

Actually I took Martin's original post as an observation of a difference he thought he'd found. While almost anything Martin says generally suggests he's found something to complain about, that's just Martin (sometimes).

I was slightly, but not very, surprised that Martin wasn't aware of how many places in the US either don't routinely serve water, and/or charge for it. Many people who live in areas where water is commonly given just assume that it's common everywhere. People who eat in a "class" or "style" of eating establishment where it's common are likely to assume that it's common everywhere.

I can't recall the last time I stopped at Burgler King or McDuckmeat and was offered a glass of water; but hardly anyone notices the abscence. The last time SWMBO asked for a glass of water to take some meds at a McD she was charged for the cup (for ref: in Oklahoma).

Routine service of water probably is less common in the US in places that imagine themselves to be "classy" eating places; but most of us can't afford to eat there so we don't see it much. As a tourist, if Martin asks "where's a good place to eat?" he's most likely to be sent somewhere that isn't the norm for the regular populace, so he will need to be careful about generalizing.

The immediate assumptions that Martin is a "typical ugly American" is the other side of the coin - that Europeans and "Euro sympathizers" frequently generalize in ways that can also be rather "ugly" to Americans, especially to those with limited experience of their own country, much less of other countries.

The sight of a rugger team of Brit "geen cards" waving their bare buttocks at each other in a bar a bit above my usuall cla$$ right here in Wichita Kansas USA about a year ago (at an "office? party") didn't particularly offer a favorable impression of the Empire to the unsuspecting natives; although they mostly accepted it fairly graciously when it was explained that "they're Brits - you have to expect that sort of stuff." They all understood.

Martin may be able to offer some interesting observations (perhaps even some useful ones) and I'd be interested in the exchange - if it doesn't go too far off into bashing and battering and meaningless generalizations.

John

Subject: RE: BS: first europe observation
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 03:40 PM

The trick is, for anyone realy interested, is to make sure the waiter or waitress knows you want good old plain tapwater. Most places will provide that free of charge. When you ask for a glass of water they will often ask if you want sparkling or still. Make sure they know you do NOT want mineral water. Martin, being an 'out of towner' in this case has been unknowing victim of what is probably the biggest 'sting' in the food industry.

I am pretty sure that when I tour other countries without the benefit of a local guide I get ripped off - I accept it. It's all part of the experience and provided it does not hurt my pocket too much no-one is realy damaged by the experience.

Keep 'em coming, Martin, I am realy interested in what you did and did not like about Europe in general and England in particular - Although I must say that if you only saw London it was not a balanced picture of our sceptred isle!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: first europe observation
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 03:42 PM

Oh - Having said that - in some areas of Europe it is still recommended NOT to drink the tapwater:-( Dunno if you went to any of these, Martin, but if you did buying bottled water saved you from a night or two on the toilet!

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: first europe observation
From: alanabit
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 03:43 PM

The first thing to point out is that in our culture, the water, which is served in restaraurants, is invariably mineral water. It is usually served in small bottles. That means that it has to be collected, stored, transported and distributed, which all costs money. The restaurants pass on that expense.
Because I am able to consume very little beer without severe damage, I usually need to drink equal measures of water. When I ask for a large glass of tap water in most pubs - let alone restaurants, I usually get a bemused look first and then a glass of tap water served up with good humour.
Now, if we are going to compare the merits of American beers to those available in Europe, I am happy to believe the comments of our American guests...

Subject: RE: BS: first europe observation
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 03:52 PM

The thing I have found in most of Europe, is that in the countries where it is not 'advisable' to drink the tap water, it is usually sweltering and a chilled bottle of mineral water goes down a treat and is a fraction of the cost of UK bottled water.

Having said that a lot of the countries where we are advised not to drink the water,it is not beacuse it is unclean, but because it is rich in mineral and can upset our delicate tums.

It sounds as though martin stuck to the big touristy cities and would accordingly pay touristy prices.

Subject: RE: BS: first europe observation
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 03:56 PM

There was a time when water shortages were going on and restaurants in the Rocky Mountain West only served water when requested. It was a conservation thing, something we could use more of, all over this planet. A lot of them seem to have adopted it as a standard since that time. Personally, I don't want to drink anything but bottled water, these days. Happy Earth Day!

Subject: RE: BS: first europe observation
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 06:15 PM

Anybody actually read the article that I linked to and recommended?

Everybody seems to be drowning in Marty's glass of water.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: first europe observation
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 06:53 PM

Actually American traveller, I was commenting about the pitfalls of generalizing about any aspect of the US from the bad behavior of one person on line who claims to be an American. Contrary to what some may say. We are not all the same.

Subject: RE: BS: first europe observation
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 07:25 PM

Don, I did. We try not to miss any of Steves' shows!

Subject: RE: BS: first europe observation
From: Emma B
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 07:29 PM

I did too Don - really enjoyed an outsiders view!

Subject: RE: BS: first europe observation
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 23 Apr 06 - 01:15 AM

Good link, Art. I am a great admirer of Rick Steeves. I recently heard an interview with him on television and realized how political he was. I think he would make an excellent president. I wish people like him would consider running for office. I think he is just what the doctor ordered - a breath of fresh air.

Subject: RE: BS: first europe observation
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 23 Apr 06 - 03:13 AM

It used to be law that pubs and restaurants could not charge for tap-water. I think the only reason why restaurants in the UK do not provide free water as a matter of course is that they hope you will buy a drink.

I have never been asked to pay for tap water and one pub I know will not even charge for soda water and lime or tea or coffee.

Subject: RE: BS: first europe observation
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 23 Apr 06 - 05:19 AM

I live in London and I have never been charged for a glass of water. I was in an Italian restaurant in the West End last night with a friend after an afternoon shopping and I drank water and I was not charged for it. I don't drink bottled water in restaurants and pubs as there isn't anythingwrong with the water.

There is so much to see and do in Europe that I think a comment about water is rather petty IMO

Subject: RE: BS: first europe observation
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 23 Apr 06 - 06:23 AM

In the UK, the tapwater is fine to drink, and if you ask for tapwater in a pub etc, you should not be charged for it. There is a legal obligation to provide it free. Unless you make it very clear that it is not bottled water you want, you will get bottled water, and so be charged for it.


The mineral content varies enough to really worry some people, and many towns draw their supplies from peat covered hills, so the water often has the distinctive colour of tannins. Variety is good though.

In many parts of europe, the tapwater is not safe, but bottled water is actually a reasonable price as a result.

Subject: RE: BS: first europe observation
From: Mr Red
Date: 23 Apr 06 - 01:23 PM

Martin - if you are that pernickity lets see how you get on when asking for a meal without onions.

You ain'ta gonna like it.......................

Subject: RE: BS: first europe observation
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Apr 06 - 07:33 PM

sorry about the water. are you going to tell us where it was? I think we should be able to pinpoint which restaurants are behaving beastly. and report it to Ken Livingstone.

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Continuation thread here (click)

-Joe Offer-