BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty

Subject: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 May 06 - 03:53 PM

Just out- Ken (Kenny Boy) Lay: Guilty on all counts. Skilling, second in command, Guilty on 19 out of 28 Counts

This is a BIG day

Subject: RE: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: Bobert
Date: 25 May 06 - 03:55 PM

Well, I'm sho nuff glad they got these two crooks fir what Bush and Cheney are now doing to the American people with the manipulation of gas supplies...

Yeah, a couple crooks down, only a million more to go...

Subject: RE: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: Wesley S
Date: 25 May 06 - 04:01 PM

Will they ever see the inside of a jail I wonder ?

Subject: RE: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 May 06 - 04:15 PM

I dunno, but Lay's being found guilty lays (no pun intended) him open to some heavy penalties. And his and his family's reactions would seem to indicate that they know this.

Subject: RE: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: harpmolly
Date: 25 May 06 - 09:17 PM

Well, this slightly mitigates my fury upon reading last week about Boeing squirreling out of their problems with a $600 million payoff. At least *somebody* who deserves it is going to get his ass kicked.

(On the other hand...maybe we should replace all criminal sentencing with fines instead of jail time or having to admit any wrongdoing. We'd have that deficit back to a surplus in no time.)

Sigh. Guess I'm feeling cynical at the moment. Sorry for the thread creep. I only wish I had cable so I could hear what my boyfriend Jon Stewart will have to say about this tonight ;)

Molly

Subject: RE: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: mrdux
Date: 25 May 06 - 09:40 PM

My guess is that the boys will get sentenced to some substantial number of years in federal minimum security facilities when they appear in September for their comeuppance. I've heard some federal prosecutors predicting ten to twenty years, and a guy in the article Ebbie posted was guessing upward of twenty. Could be. Wouldn't break my heart. They're also looking at some whopping fines and restitution to the victims. You're right, Ebbie: the Lay and Skilling families appear none too happy this evening.

The court does have the authority to stay the sentence pending appeal upon posting of security. If the judge does, and if, as a lot of people expect, W pardons them shortly after the 2008 election, Kenny Boy and Skilling may never see the inside of a jail. On the other hand, a sufficiently cranky judge -- and federal judges are not known for being warm and fuzzy toward convicted felons -- could very easily deny them release pending appeal. We'll see in September.

michael

Subject: RE: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: Bill D
Date: 25 May 06 - 09:48 PM

Don't sentence them to prison, call a meeting of the ex-stockholders and ex-employees of Enron in a big arena like the Rose Bowl, and turn Lay & Skilling loose at midfield.

Subject: RE: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 May 06 - 11:31 PM

Well done the USA. Better than the record of the UK's SFO.

Subject: RE: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: number 6
Date: 25 May 06 - 11:57 PM

Problem is, Lay and Skilling won't be sentenced until September. This leaves lots of time for easy living and shrewd manoveurs ... these low lifes shold have been shackled and taken right away into 'lockup'.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 26 May 06 - 12:04 AM

It's a start.

But keep in mind the sad fact that the poor schlub who gets caught 3 times stealing a loaf of bread in California gets life in prison.

Even if these guys get 20 years, where's the justice?

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: Arne
Date: 26 May 06 - 02:22 AM

Ebbie:

I dunno, but Lay's being found guilty lays (no pun intended) him open to some heavy penalties. And his and his family's reactions would seem to indicate that they know this.

I was listenting to the talking heads of the telly, and they were saying (although they're often clueless or outright wrong) that Dubya's one-time top campaign contributor and friend "Kenny Boy" Lay might spend the rest of his natural life in prison. May not happen, but the charges he's been convicted of are serious. Millions of dollars, and thousands of people if not more defrauded.

As one of the icons of folk music said:

Yes, as through this world I've wandered
I've seen lots of funny men;
Some will rob you with a six-gun,
And some with a fountain pen.

The result is the same, isn't it? You do the crime, you do the time.

Cheers,

Subject: RE: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: alanabit
Date: 26 May 06 - 05:19 AM

On television yes. The problem in real life, is that you only really have to do time if you operate on a small enough level, that they really can lock you up. I will be most surprised if this scum sees the inside of a prison cell for more than a few months.

Subject: RE: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 May 06 - 05:48 AM

Halls of Justice we have, but as the great stand-up philosopher Leonard Schneider once said, "The only place you find the Justice is in the halls......on his way to the can." Will these guys ever actually pay up? Will Cheney or Bush?

I said it before, but ya' know, I never thought I'd learn anything about sex from an asshole like Bush or the Republican Party in general. I was wrong. I now know that oral sex is very bad while sodomy is just fine. Bill Clinton was impeached for getting his hat blown. Bush has butt-fucked the entire country and he is still going along fat, dumb, and happy. If he pardons these two dorks he should have his balls welded to an oil drum.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: Big Mick
Date: 26 May 06 - 09:56 AM

For what these men have done to so many people, I would wish to be sentenced to one day in the cell of each of them.

Personalize it, folks. Look at your life's work, and your savings. Imagine that you have spent your entire life building a retirement, worked hard, saved, and had plans to retire in a few years. Spend some time with the grandkids, travel with your spouse. The end of work is looming on the horizon. You wake up one morning to find out it is gone, all gone. It is important to visualize what that would mean to you. You are now faced with working all the years you had intended to enjoy as the fruits of your hard labors. All the plans of passing something on to the grandkids ..... gone. You are aging, and your future is taken away. The end of your life on earth is so much closer than the beginning, no time to rebuild it, and too old to do so anyway.

That is what these scumbags did. They stole dreams, they stole the fruits of the entire lives of many people. I hate what they have done with every fibre of my being. The only appropriate penalty is to have it all taken from them, and they spend their days in a rat infested hole. But in the good ole USA, they will get sentenced to 20 years, serve their time in a country club prison, and be out in less than seven, probably less than 5, and be spending the money they hid.

"You rich will never understand it.........."


Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: Scoville
Date: 26 May 06 - 10:03 AM

I'm afraid I have no faith that it will stick, but right now I'm just going to enjoy it. Sorry, not very nice of me.

My mother fantasizes that she could have all their assets seized (and no hiding stuff by "transferring ownership" to wives and children) and sold off so they can have a taste of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 May 06 - 11:07 AM

One of the things that burns me is that the criminal is allowed to profit from his crime, even when he has been found guilty. Usually he has to pay "restitution" but nothing like the amount he stole. I think the estates, the yachts, the stocks to the amount they gained illegally all should be confiscated and sold and returned to the people they defrauded and after that, there should be a hefty fine that is paid to the government. If there is anything left to them after that I wish them a happy life.

That never happens.

Subject: RE: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: John Hardly
Date: 26 May 06 - 12:58 PM

This is the best possible outcome.

So many here said this day would never come. Now, rather than saying, "hmmm, guess I was wrong" it seems more are still saying either, "it's not enough" (though for every other criminal offence it would seem mercy is the coin of this realm), or "even though this conviction has happened, I just don't believe it."

The outcome isn't at all what y'all thought it would be. Maybe the world doesn't work exactly the way you think it does either.

Subject: RE: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 May 06 - 01:04 PM

John, 'mercy' is not applicable here until he/they pay back what they took to the people they took it from.

Subject: RE: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: Peace
Date: 26 May 06 - 01:19 PM

As me ol' Pappy usta say: "There's no point talkin' morals in a whore house." It's not the first big corporate ripoff and it won't be the last. Don't take too much to buy a verdict.

Subject: RE: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 06 - 07:09 AM

Catspaw - if what you say is true, I say let Bush keep on humpin - Great economy, more home ownership (per capita) the highest in our history, a ton of jobs wait for college graduates (key word "graduates") low interest rates, and this from a guy who lost his ass due to people like Lay, Skilling, et.al.

Part of my downfall was Global Crossing and before you say more, go check with your Broker and see when ALL this crap started - in the late 90's - and I don't have any reason to blame Clinton. It appears that we are creating more bandits that we did 50 years ago.

Whenever I see people stomping Bush, the old bumper sticker comes to mind; "SORE LOOSERMAN"

Subject: RE: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 06 - 07:12 AM

......by the way Ebbie, even the children of Lay and Skilling had to sign all their assests, homes, etc., over to the court at the end of the trial. I am wondering where you get your information.

Subject: RE: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: Charley Noble
Date: 27 May 06 - 08:03 AM

Well said, Big Mick!

I do wonder if these rip-off artists will ever feel remorse for anyone except themselves.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: Bobert
Date: 27 May 06 - 11:09 AM

Yeah, Mick, but...

...look around an' yopu see corporation after corporation restructuring promises they made to their workers... Yeah, this administartion has bent over backwards to protect corporate lenders from the little guy who files bankruptcy yet made bankpuptcy of corprations the main instrument in ripping off the working man...

And all being done while CEO's are being paid grotesque amounts of money... I mean, obscene money...

Yeah, the current crooks will point out Lay and Skilling and say "Hey, we're taking care of the crooks..."

Well, they sho nuff are taking care of the crooks... Taking evry good care of them... Lay and Skilling are just a smokescreen...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 May 06 - 11:36 AM

Guest, I've looked for it but I can't find yuor information. Since the sentencing has not yet occurred, when was it ordered that their assets be signed over?

Subject: RE: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: gnu
Date: 27 May 06 - 01:20 PM

Right on, Big Mick. Except for the rat infested hole... you forgot the hard labour for minimum wage.

Subject: RE: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 27 May 06 - 05:11 PM

It does make the excesses of the French Revolution a bit more understandable.

Subject: RE: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 May 06 - 01:35 AM

"Whenever I see people stomping Bush, the old bumper sticker comes to mind; "SORE LOOSERMAN"

Looser than what Dipstick? And what the hell is loose....and why would it make a person sore?

When you go to insult someone it seems that good form would include, at the very least, the proper spelling. For instance, if I were to refer to you, for just a purely hypothetical example, as a broke-dick mamalucca or say that you would orally remove the perspiration from George Bush's and Dick Cheney's nutsacks, I would try to spell all of it correctly to avoid misunderstanding.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:47 AM

The "old looserman"- yeah, I'm sure you've seen many a bumpersticker like that. Hah, I say.

Subject: RE: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: John Hardly
Date: 28 May 06 - 07:01 AM

Ebbie, I'm with you on that'n!   Restitution is a far better solution than imprisonment.

Subject: RE: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: Bobert
Date: 28 May 06 - 07:27 AM

How about restitution to the state of California, too???.... Seems Enron husseled them out of about $10B...

Subject: RE: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 06 - 08:12 AM

Spaw, sorry I hit a major nerve! Not!! - can't you take a joke? Actually, it was not meant to be a joke and your defensive diatribe smacks of a lowbrow approach to life. Surely you can do better than that - on second thought, probably not. I find it humorous, considering the source.

And I am sure all saw thru the typing stutter. It was/is SORE LOSERMAN" Ebbie and others, nice try at avoidance but the truth is there.
Bobert, Congress mad the rules that allowed the corruptness to take place. Unlike you, I try for a degree of honesty as opposed to blaming those I don't like. My ripoff started in the late 90's and it would be unrealistic to blame WJC even though I still feel he was a do nothing president. And don't forget the Republican Freshman members that came into Congress around '94 did the budget work that WJC still takes credit for. Unfortumately, they too have been absorbed into the "good ole' boys club" we call the House and the Senate.

Subject: RE: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 06 - 08:23 AM

By the way, Big Mick, well put. I am one of those that basically woke up one morning and....................

It is really nothing new in our Society, just more prevalent with a higher per capita rate of people being affected. Due to the big push in the last 40 years for investing, 401K's, IRA's ,etc.
We adjust, we have to, and one of my first was no 42' Houseboat on the Gulfcoast of Florida (Pine Island) as a Winter home which would have sailed North to Indiana as a Summer home. However, I still get down there for several weeks a year and don't miss amy Grandchildren's Winter sports and various play productions. See, something good can come out of everything.


(I still agree 100% with you)

Subject: RE: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 May 06 - 11:12 AM

Guest, the part you seem not to understand: Yes, Bush is in the White House. But hear this: Far worse than the Democrats losing is that the United States of America lost. If knowing that makes me and millions of others "sore losermans" (sic), so be it.

Subject: RE: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: podman
Date: 28 May 06 - 12:40 PM

Re: Lay and Skilling found guilty.

Couldn't happen to a nicer pair of Sh&theads.

Subject: RE: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: GUEST
Date: 29 May 06 - 09:15 AM

Ebbie, I do understand - I WAS glad the Dems lost in the last several Congressional elections. Now, the spending is as bad on both side of the aisle and the decision making process is flawed. The Dems have not had a clue as to how to govern since the mid 80's. Now it appears the Repubs are climbing aboard the same boat. America did not lose because the Dems did not win, America is losing because both sides of the aisle in DC have forgotten about us.

I am of the opinion that I could pick 10 graduating Seniors from each State (High School) and see more sensiblity in running this Country than we now have with the 500 or so in DC.

And as far as GWB in the WHite House, like it or not, right, wrong or indifferent, he is showing leadership that has not existed since Reagan. And don't bring up the war, deficits, etc. I said "right or wrong", "like it or not". I do think I understand, I do not blame WJC for my financial losses even though it started "under his watch". (Good grief, I have seen that phrase used too often and it is my attempt at sarcasm)


Sometimes one must cast aside party politics/preferences and try to be realistic and fair.


....and podman, completely agree with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: mrdux
Date: 29 May 06 - 05:58 PM

the other day, Guest wrote: ".....by the way Ebbie, even the children of Lay and Skilling had to sign all their assests, homes, etc., over to the court at the end of the trial. I am wondering where you get your information."

Ebbie replied: "Guest, I've looked for it but I can't find yuor information. Since the sentencing has not yet occurred, when was it ordered that their assets be signed over?"

what really happened was that, after he was convicted the judge increased Lay's bond -- which keeps him out of jail pending sentencing -- from $500,000 to $5,000,000. Lay's kids had to put up some of their own property to secure his bond and release only because Lay is now claiming (ironically) extreme poverty -- you know, he's unemployed and has these huge legal fees, and any assets that he had are frozen solid. Lay's kids weren't ordered by the court to sign over anything -- they agreed to secure the bond with their own assets to keep Kenny Boy out of the can a little longer. When Lay shows up and is sentenced and is taken into custody, the assets secirung the bond aree released back to the kids. If he doesn't show up for sentencing, the judge can forfeit all those assets. As to Skilling, so far as I can tell, he posted $5,000,000 in cash as a bond at the beginning of the case a couple years ago, and the judge continued his release pending sentencing on the same bond.

Apparently, the Judge has announced that he was going to consider the dollar amount of financial havoc wreaked by these guys as a deciding factor in how much time they get. Under the Federal Sentencing Guidelines, if the losses are upwards of $80,000,000 (including losses to the State of California?), they're looking at upwards of 20 years. A huge amount of restitution is likely to be imposed as well. . . I wonder how much of it ever actually gets paid back, especially if they're in prison for the next twenty-or-so years. I'd also rather see them have to try to work off the debt for the rest of their lives than to sit in prison. But that's not going to happen in this justice system. . .

michael

Subject: RE: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 29 May 06 - 06:31 PM

Unfortunately, michael, if you give creeps like this a chance to "work off the debt" they'll be back to the same old tricks that created the debt - about 20 seconds after they hit the street.

What else would they know how to do, that would make that kind of money?

The $80,000,000 that's been mentioned several times above is just a threshold set in the sentencing rules, to trigger longer sentences. The loss is estimated at the first link in the thread:

The collapse obliterated more than $60 billion in market value, almost $2.1 billion in pension plans and, initially, 5,600 jobs.

A bit over the threshold.

[For our Brit friends, that's US billion = 10⁹, not the Brit 10¹² practice, so it's really not all that much...]

John

Subject: RE: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: mrdux
Date: 29 May 06 - 07:50 PM

John --

That's correct -- the threshhold for the imposition of a minimum of 20 years under the (now advisory only) federal sentencing guidelines is $80,000,000 pecuniary loss directly attributable to the criminal activity of the defendants (sorry if I was less than clear about it), and I have precious little doubt that they've far surpassed that figure.

My real problem is that over the last thirty years or so, the criminal justice system has become a Draconian system of retribution, in which a long period of incarceration is usually the answer to pretty much any question. I guess I just don't find locking Ken Lay up for most -- if not all -- of the rest of his life to be a particularly satisfying conclusion to all this (although, to be honest, part of me does think it's pretty appropriate). At the moment, my sense is that I'd rather see him do a short-ish term in prison (24 months, maybe, just to make an impression) followed by a long term of strictly supervised probation, which, I am told, is much more difficult than doing twenty years in. If that were an option, and the probationary supervision were sufficiently strict, my guess is that even the two of them would be hard pressed to do much damage -- lest they be sent back to the joint -- and, perhaps some good (and/or restitution) might yet be squeezed out of them. Or something like that.

I dunno, I just think locking them up for twenty+ years is too easy an answer.

michael

Subject: RE: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 29 May 06 - 08:51 PM

How about just keeping them both locked up until the last of those who didn't get their pension because of them no longer needs it?

The problem here is that the damage done is far beyond anything they can possibly begin to repay, so there is no possibility of meaningful restitution. If he pays back $1,000 per day it would only take him 5,475 and a fraction years to put $2,000,000,000 back into the pension fund. And that doesn't count those whose pensions with other companies may have been invested with the stock that they caused to lose $60,000,000,000.

I'll agree fully that we seem to have too many people who think revenge is the only thing that matters, and if there could be a way that the loss could be reduced it would make better moral sense to make them do something meaningful toward repayment; but neither of the two who were convicted is likely to be placed in any position that would produce enough income to have an impact, and by the time any payback was parcelled out, only the lawyers would get any of it.

About all that's left that can be done is to assure that the guilty don't benefit from what was done. That, perhaps, could be done in or out of prison; but I wouldn't want to be the worker who had to keep tabs on someone like these two on the outside.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 May 06 - 09:43 PM

The Cat is prescient!   I suppose it's all my fault when it skedaddles.    In response to JohninKansas I have no idea what is appropriate or feasible or best when it comes to coldblooded thievery. I guess that I mainly would like them not to profit.

Anyway, here is what I said in response to mrdux:

I agree. Knowing he/they were locked up wouldn't do anything at all for the pension plans and stock options that the employees lost in the crash. Locking them up indefinitely comes under the category of revenge rather than of redress.

I have a question: Since it is now well known that Enron's policies were the main - and deliberate - cause of the power outages and brownouts along with horrendous costs in the California energy crisis - and in fact, were the primary cause of Schwartzenegger getting into office, because Californians blamed Governor Gray for the mess - can California also take Enron's executives to court? I mean, after the Federal government has had its crack at the officials?

Speaking of Lay's poverty- I remember a couple of years ago when Lay's wife said tearfully that they would have to let one of their homes go...

Subject: RE: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: pdq
Date: 29 May 06 - 09:59 PM

"...it is now well known that Enron's policies were the main - and deliberate - cause of the power outages and brownouts along with horrendous costs in the California energy crisis - and in fact, were the primary cause of Schwartzenegger getting into office, because Californians blamed Governor Gray for the mess..."

I may regret being this blunt, Ebbie, but that is one of the most ignorant statements in the history of Mudcat. It borders on asinine. Please get a fact or two before you post. The entity which charged the most inflated prices was the munincipal utility company owned by the city of Los Angeles! Enron had nothing to do with the 'brown-outs', which were few and far between. They had nothing to do with California's unconstitutional state debt. That was mismanagement by Gray Davis and company.

Subject: RE: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: mrdux
Date: 29 May 06 - 11:18 PM

As I hope I made clear, I'm not especially offended by the notion that Lay and Skilling are likely to spend a fairly huge amount of time behind bars. And my math skills are not so far in my past that I have any illusions about the percentage of the full amount of restitution that is likely to be repaid, whether they're in or out of custody, or somewhere in a halfway house between. On the whole, it seems to me that it's probably cheaper to supervise them on the outside than it is to house them on the inside, and I know a few probation officers who would be more than delighted to keep them on a fairly short leash. But I'm not comfortable, really, making decisions on that kind of basis. The problem is that, as a colleague has said, when the only tool one has is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. If the only choices are to lock them up for a long time, and restitution doesn't get paid, or supervise them out of custody for a long time, and restitution still doesn't get paid. . . well, our institutional inability to adequately and humanely address the situation is frustrating.

I'd think California can certainly take the Enron exec's to court. Proving the case, of course, is another matter (see pdq's post, immediately above -- I'm not taking sides, just noting that what is known and what can be proved in court are often quite different things). Collecting anything from the suddenly impecunious Messr's Lay and Skilling -- and whatever other co-defendants can be found -- is yet another matter. Lay, by the way, now claims that his current net worth, after paying his attorney fees, is negative $250,000. Perhaps a bake sale?

michael

Subject: RE: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 May 06 - 12:29 AM

I don't think it likely either of them would survive for very long outside of prison. So many people devastated by their actions, it'd only be a matter of time before someone tried to "get them."

Subject: RE: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 May 06 - 12:34 AM

Here, Lover

"Recently released tapes and documents provide further evidence that the 2000-2001 energy crisis in California was the result of a criminal conspiracy in which energy giant Enron played the leading role. On February 3, the Snohomish County Public Utility Department (SCPUD) in Washington State released material detailing Enron's flagrant manipulation of the power supply in California. The evidence was released as part of an effort to convince the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC) to void a $122 million termination fee Enron was demanding from the Washington State public utility."

Subject: RE: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 06 - 10:48 AM

'The World Socialist Web Site'??????????

That won't work, Ebbie - that is simply their 'translation'.

Let's have some real facts, okay?

Subject: RE: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: pdq
Date: 30 May 06 - 11:06 AM

(Thanks, GUEST. That point is not lost on most people.)

The event mentioned is now being called "The Western Energy Crisis of 2000-2001". I have not read anything from this site yet by will do so soon:

                         FERC

Subject: RE: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 May 06 - 11:38 AM

I simply grabbed the first link that came up. Enron's criminality in the matter is no secret.

Subject: RE: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 May 06 - 02:08 PM

GUEST, it is a sign of intellectual dishonesty to just attack the source instead of the facts cited by the source. Just because the source of the data doesn't meet your approval does not necessarily mean the information presented isn't valid. Did you bother to read the information provided? You made the contention, she provided data. Respond to the argument.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: GUEST,GUEST, mrdux
Date: 30 May 06 - 04:27 PM

I agree with Big Mick: the data is the data. Although I'm sure Enron and its apologists would disagree, FERC (Federal Energy Regulatory Commission) -- decidedly not a part of the World Socialist combine -- has a similarly dim view view of Enron's activities. This is prominently displayed on page 1 of the site linked to by pdq.

"January 31, 2005

      "FERC trial staff testifies in Enron Gaming case that Enron's profits in Western states from 1997 through 2003 was more than $1.6 billion, and recommends that Enron be required to surrender the full amount."

$1.6 billion is pretty substantial impropriety.

And now back to work.

michael

Subject: RE: BS: Lay and Skilling- Guilty
From: pdq
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 01:20 PM

I just found this (no I did not write it)...


A young Cowboy named Kenny moved to Texas and bought a donkey from a farmer for $100.00. The farmer agreed to deliver the donkey the next day.

The following day the farmer drove up and said, "Sorry, son, but I have some bad news. The donkey died."

Kenny replied, "Well then, just give me back my money.

The farmer said, I'm sorry, I can't do that. I spent it. Kenny said,

"OK. Just bring me the dead donkey."

The farmer asked, "What are you going to do with him?"

Kenny answered, "I"m going to raffle him off."

The farmer said "You can't raffle off a dead donkey!"

Kenny responded "Sure I can. I just won't tell anybody he's dead."

A month later the farmer met up with Kenny and asked, "What happened with that dead donkey?"

Kenny answered, "I raffled him off. I sold 500 tickets at two dollars apiece and made a profit of $998.00."

The farmer asked, "Did anyone complain?"

Kenny said, "Just the guy who won, so I gave him back his two dollars."

Kenny grew up and eventually became the chairman of Enron