BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST,Black Tom
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 01:11 AM

Let us hope they never do. Unification would be under a group like Hammas. In twenty years they could take over the world. We would then have the choice to convert to Islam, or die. They would make the Nazis look like nice guys!

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 12:40 PM

"Tosser" is a word beloved of angry UK-ers...but they fail to realize how completely silly and without impact it sounds when it falls on North American ears.

"Oh, my God! He called me a...a tosser...(sob!)..." ;-)

Teribus always used to call me a tosser when he would get totally upset with me about something. It would puzzle me when he did that. I wasn't sure what he meant. Now if he had called me a "diddlyboob"...or a "terwilliger"...THEN I would have known how to react! Yessiree. I would have sent the attack hamsters out to render dire retribution on him.

* sigh * The recurrent problems of local idioms obscuring good communication between people who can't stand each other. It's tragic.

Well, I still think Israel's out of line, as you might expect...not that their opponents aren't out of line also...but I'm not going to waste my time today telling you what you already know full well.

Just carry on without me. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Peace
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 08:15 PM

GUEST,abe.

I have reread all the posts of yours I can locate. You sound like a drunk. Unfortunately, you write like one, too. Please, the next time you are sober--which is likely to be sometime in the year 2016--return and post more, OK?

Have a nice day, luv.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Peace
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 08:09 PM

"Or even Friday -

Ooops thats the sabat so you will be at the SIN O'gog!!"

You sound like the kind of guy who gets his mouth and courage from a bottle. Try typing the next time you're sober, OK pal? Until then, fuck off.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Peace
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 08:06 PM

"Peace - you tosser. The lying jews have suspended nothing!

If you want to fuck with me I'll meet you in the Devonshire Arms SW16 Fridat 9pm!!!"

Bite me, asshole.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 08:08 PM

Guest,abe

watch that throbbing vein in your TEMPLE.

Wouldn't want any actual thought to lead to a stroke_. . .

Is 'tosser' some kind of code word for "I've run out of clever things to say"?

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 10:15 AM

Frankly Abe, you dont come across as the sort of person anyone would want a fuck with...

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST,Howard5252
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 10:10 AM

If the Jewish people had the power that the hate mongers claim they have and if the Jewish people controlled the resources that the hate mongers claim they do ... those hate mongers would have been stepped upon like the bugs they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST,Abe
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 08:52 AM

Or even Friday -

Ooops thats the sabat so you will be at the SIN O'gog!!

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST,abe
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 08:51 AM

Peace - you tosser. The lying jews have suspended nothing!

If you want to fuck with me I'll meet you in the Devonshire Arms SW16 Fridat 9pm!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST,Howard5252
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 07:45 AM

In the arab countries, school children are being taught to hate Israel. As lomg as this is allowed to continue, the war will go on with only the names changing.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 06:05 PM

Just released by an Australian news service:

Israel suspends south Lebanon strikes

From correspondents in Jerusalem

July 31, 2006

ISRAEL today suspended air strikes in southern Lebanon for 48 hours while it investigates the Qana bombings, US State Department spokesman Adam Ereli said.
"Israel has agreed to a 48-hour suspension of aerial activity in south Lebanon," Mr Ereli told reporters after talks between US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and top Israeli officials.

Israel would also coordinate with the United Nations on a 24-hour period of "safe passage" for civilians that wish to leave the area, Mr Ereli said.

Dozens of Lebanese women and children died in an Israeli strike on Qana, sparking renewed international calls for an immediate ceasefire.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 09:48 AM

Hey, Peace-

Israel has them surrounded!

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 01:22 AM

"Why can't the Arab nations unite and finaly end the suffering of the people of Palestine once and for all against that little plot of American soil which can seem to do whatever it likes against these poor people."


End the unjust occupation of Arab land, now!

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 01:10 AM

Still waiting for Myles to brave the current stream and return with a report.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 01:22 AM

BTW, 'abe', complicted is not a real word. I made it up as you make things up. Eat me, fu#khead.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 01:15 AM

'Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST,abe - PM
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 10:08 AM

"peace" what sort of name is that, for some wanker yanker who wants to "get serious about the war" stick the idiot on the front line I say!'

I think that's English. Let me give you some back.

What do you, arsehole, see wrong with Israel calling a unilateral cease fire? Then when Hezbollah does not--after three days--Isreal resumes the war. That too complicted for you?

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 01:09 AM

I saw a show on the Discovery channel about an oil field just off of Sakhalin island on the east coast of Russia. The field contains more oil than Saudi Arabia according to taht program.

Two giant drilling platforms are being built in S Korea for the field. Each one can handle 26 wells drilled down and then off at an angle.

I am sure there are more fields like this in the world that can replace all the oil comming from the middle east in the near future.

http://www.radford.edu/~wkovarik/oil/index2.html

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 06:11 PM

Wasn't it former Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir who said that once the Arabs learned to queue, Israel would be in big trouble (or words to that effect)?

Yes, I know that's rather a cheap, flippant comment, but it does have some relevance to the title question of this thread, as does the well-known expression that includes the words "piss-up", "brewery" and "organise".

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 04:54 PM

When their oil runs out, we will all have a great deal to worry about...but I probably won't live quite long enough to see that (got my fingers crossed). And I'll make sure to reincarnate on Arcturus 4 next time instead of coming back here! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 04:15 PM

Because they are arrogant arseholes.

Wait till their oil runs out.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST,abe
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 10:08 AM

"peace" what sort of name is that, for some wanker yanker who wants to "get serious about the war" stick the idiot on the front line I say!

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 08:36 AM

I agree with you on that 100% Peace.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Peace
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 12:19 AM

I think Israel should stop unilaterally for three days. I expect that Hezbollah would not. After three days, when people can see the reality of Hezbollah, then take off the gloves and get serious about the war. Because so far Israel has done its best to limit civilian casualties. It means nothing to people who want Isreal's destruction. Then, Israel could say, "That is the nature of the enemy." Then if people don't like it, screw 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 12:12 AM

In the meantime the UN and European nations call for a cease fire and that it should include conditions acceptable to Syria and Iran. Well that means you accept their right to murder Jews because all Syria and Iran want is the complete destruction of Israel and the death of all Infidels. I say fuck em! Israel should keep fighting.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: number 6
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 12:07 AM

Very clear ... I sent you a pm LH.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 11:55 PM

Number 6, I would never imply that ALL the people in ANY group are arrogant and racist. I am merely saying that there was a significant amount of insecurity, arrogance, and prejudice showing itself among Native Americans I was around...and among Native Americans here and there that I wasn't around, but may have seen on the News or something.

At the same time, I met some marvelous people among the Native Americans, and my favorite folksinger is a Native American (Buffy Sainte-Marie)...and I've found her to be a very warm and fair-minded person (have had several impromptu discussions with her after concerts). For example, although Buffy has written some strongly worded songs in support of women's rights from time to time, she also makes a point in every concert I've ever seen her in to say something really good about men...about the extraordinary pressures that men are put under to be competitive and macho and all that stuff...and that people should appreciate what men have to go through and not put them down so much.

Hooray for Buffy Sainte-Marie.

Was Rolling Thunder arrogant? Oh, YEAH! (grin) But he was so over the top about it, you had to like him anyway, unless you were one of those people who hated him...and there certainly were some who did. The disarming thing about RT was, he fully admitted he was prejudiced and he was good at making jokes at his own expense now and then about it. He was a crusty, cantakerous hellraiser of a man who liked rattling people's cages.

The best medicine person I ever met was Brooke Medicine Eagle. I have nothing but good to say about that lady. She respected all people and cultures.

No, I would never say that all Native Americans were arrogant and racist. Hardly. What I would say is that when a media system bombards people for several decades (since the mid-60's) with shows that encourage only one politically correct viewpoint, based on race...that viewpiont being calculated to portray a people as victims, and mainstream whites as their evil oppressors...then a peculiar psychology can develop among some of the "victims". They can get a real chip on their shoulders, an unnecessary one, and some of them do. Then you have a problem.

I've seen that happen with some Native Americans, more than a few blacks, a rather small number of women, and more than a few Jews.

It's called having a "persecution complex". It looks so hard for prejudice everywhere that it often sees it where it doesn't exist (kind of like those WMDs in Iraq). ;-) Being around such people is wearing on the nerves. Expecting them to be fair-minded and even-handed usually leads to major disappointments. Getting them to see the other guy's point of view is usually downright hopeless.

For that reason, I don't really expect most Middle Eastern Muslims to be fair or rational about Israel...and I don't really expect most Israelis to be fair or rational about the Muslims they are fighting with there either. After all, they are both populations which at this point in history suffer from having really BIG persecution complexes, due to past and present events that have badly hurt their people.

Is that clearer?

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: number 6
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 09:58 PM

That's why the Israelis are doing what they are doing ... also don't forget the Hezbollah are rapidly moving long range rockets into southern Lebeanon that will reach Te Aviv.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: podman
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 09:51 PM

New Yorker magazine had a series about Hezbollah and its organized campaign against Israel: This has been coming for some time. You don't assemble thousands of attack rockets overnight. The articles date from 2002.

Read part_one and part_two

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 03:53 PM

Hizballah (Party of God) aka "Them"

The Hizballah is an umbrella organization of various radical Shi'ite groups and organizations which adhere to a Khomeinistic ideology. The organization was established following the 1982 Peace for Galilee War in Lebanon (and an increased Iranian presence and influence in Lebanon). The Hizballah organization was established as an organizational body for Shi'ite fundamentalists, led by religious clerics, who see in the adoption of Iranian doctrine a solution to the Lebanese political malaise. This included the use of terror as a means of attaining political objectives.

Toward the end of 1982 Iran sent fighters from its 'Iranian Revolutionary Guards' in order to assist in the establishment of a revolutionary Islamic movement in Lebanon whose members would participate in the 'Jihad', Holy War, against Israel. These forces, which were located in the area of Ba'albek in the northern Beqa'a valley, bestowed on the area an Iranian-Islamic character and constituted the core of the Hizballah organization in Lebanon.

The organization maintains a training apparatus in Lebanon throughout the villages and their surroundings, as well as outside of Lebanon. Training is aimed at building a reliable manpower source for its military forces as well as for its terror arm.

The spiritual father of the movement in Lebanon is Sheikh Muhammed Hussein Fadlallah who acts as chief Mujtahid - arbiter of Islamic law - of the Shi'ite community in Lebanon. With the passage of time, Hizballah has turned into an organization of secondary level groups working on the local level led by regional functionaries.

The current Secretary General of Hizballah is Hassan Nasrallah. At the start of the 1980's he was responsible for the Beka'a area on behalf of the AMAL movement. He left the organization in 1982 and affiliated with Hizballah, taking with him many of his followers. Following the death of Abbas Musawi, he was unanimously elected as his successor as commander of operations.

The Spread of Hizballah into Southern Lebanon
As the organizational infrastructure developed, Hizballah, with Iranian and Syrian assistance, began to establish an extensive military network in the Ba'albek area. Its militias have since spread into the Shi'ite neighborhoods in southern and western Beirut as well as into southern Lebanon.

This network is the principle base of Hizballah activities as well as for those of other radical Shi'ite groups. Thousands of Hizballah activists and members are located in the Beqa'a valley, Beirut and southern Lebanon. These areas also offer a base for the recruitment of additional activists and fighters among the local Shi'ite populations.

Following the IDF withdrawal from Lebanon in 1985 the Hizballah organization consolidated itself. The consolidation included the establishment of storage depots for weapons, recruitment of activists and fighters, and widespread aid to residents in S. Lebanon, such as the donation of money, equipment, medical supplies, etc. The purpose of the aid was to gain the support of the local population in favor of the organizations activities in the South.

The ideological basis of Hizballah is Khomeinism and its principle goal is the establishment of a pan-Islamic republic headed by religious clerics. The organization's world view was first published in its political platform in February 1985, as follows:
The solution to Lebanon's problems is the establishment of an Islamic republic as only this type of regime can secure justice and equality for all of Lebanon's citizen's.
The Hizballah organization views as an important goal the fight against 'western imperialism' and its eradication from Lebanon. The group strives for complete American and French withdrawal from Lebanon, including all their institutions.
The conflict with Israel is viewed as a central concern. This is not only limited to the IDF presence in Lebanon. Rather, the complete destruction of the State of Israel and the establishment of Islamic rule over Jerusalem is an expressed goal.
Part of this radical ideology is the group's militant approach using terror as a means of attaining its goals. Hizballah decries the existence of Israel ('the little Satan'), viewed as foreign to the region and which constitutes a threat to Islam and Muslims. The destruction of Israel and the liberation of Jerusalem is deemed a religious obligation. The Hizballah organization justifies the use of terror against these enemies as a weapon in the hands of the weak and oppressed against the strong aggressor. In an effort to act upon and realize the predetermined ideological lines the group's leaders actively plan and perpetrate terror attacks against IDF and SLA forces, preach religious extremism against Israel and disseminate Iranian ideology. The Hizballah extends the conflict into Israeli territory and does not restrict its struggle to areas in Lebanon.

With the signing of the 'Ta'if Agreement' (1989) and the beginning of the 'Syrian arrangement in Lebanon, the Hizballah has been forced to conform to Syrian dictates. The Syrian interest in the continuation of terrorist attacks in South Lebanon has enabled the Hizballah to maintain its unique status in the Lebanese arena as the only major military force yet to be disarmed. The Syrians have prevented the Lebanese government from harming the military capabilities of the Hizballah, under the pretext of opposing the Israeli occupation, while at the same time enforcing their dictates upon the organization during periods when they are interested in calming the situation in southern Lebanon (as was the case following 'Operation Accountability' in July 1993 or the period coinciding with the Assad-Clinton meeting in January 1994).

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 01:01 PM

'For instance' is not proof.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 12:57 PM

My friend LH .... no I wasn't there (least I don't think I was) .. regardless, your statement (from what I interpet) applies that all Native Americans are arrogant and racist towards whites ... correct me if I'm wrong in my interpetation ... of course some humans of all races, religions can be arrogant and prejudiced ... but don't generalize 'all' based on a rotten experience, hell maybe you had too much sun ... BTW that guy in the Toronto moccasin shop is only crabby on Tuedsays and Wednesdays :).


sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 11:49 AM

By the way, that lengthy essay on Zionism has some pretty interesting stuff in it. Definitely food for thought there.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 11:44 AM

You're entirely wrong in your assumption, Number 6. When you said:

"LH .... It wasn't arrragance that you saw in the The First Nations people, it was people who showed a cold shoulder directly to you. They couldn't take any more of your dogmatic rants anymore."

You weren't there. I did not get "the cold shoulder". I got along very well with most of the Shoshones, Cherokees, Chippewas, and other Native people I spent time among, because I was part of the group. I was totally respectful at all times, totally cooperative, and accordingly I got along well with them. I was pretty shy in those days, certainly not so outspoken as I am on this forum. I just sang songs a lot, and people liked that. This was mostly in the 70's, the 80's, and the early 90's. I do not recall getting the cold shoulder from any Native people at all, except for one crabby individual who ran a mocassin and craft shop in Toronto, and I think he must have been having a bad day (anyway, he didn't know me at all. He'd only just met me).

No, my friend, what I observed was the way outsiders and newcomers were treated by the Native groups I was among. What I noticed was certain assumptions that underlay the "attitude". I noticed the tendency in people to assume an attitude of martyrdom, and to look for offence (from outsiders or from the main body of society) where offence was neither given nor intended. I noticed the tendency to assume that those in our little group were innately morally superior to the whole rest of society. (and I remember that same arrogance in young "hippies" as a matter of fact...toward "straights")

I saw so much gossiping, backstabbing, and infighting among the Native leadership that it sapped the energies of people and destroyed the effectiveness of community.

The Medicine person I was around the most was Rolling Thunder...an unusual fellow. He claimed to be Cherokee. Some of his detractors have said he wasn't Native at all. (smile) Well, I think he probably was part Native all right, but I'm not in a position to say...his wife was full-blood Shoshone. Rolling Thunder complimented me more than once for "making no trouble". He said I was the only white person who had ever come to his camp and caused absolutely no trouble whatsoever. He definitely liked me.

And that's a fact.

So your theory doesn't wash.

Do you deny that formerly oppressed people can become arrogant about themselves once radicalized by popular political slogans? Have you ever noticed the attitude of black rappers lately and that whole "gangsta" schtick they have going? What could be more antisocial than that? That's what happens when people grow up with a chip on their shoulders and blame the whole larger society for everything that goes wrong in their lives, through their own bad decisions and behaviour. Think about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Bird Flu
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 10:08 AM

Why is it Nazi to say anything against the jews?

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 09:58 AM

Joe/ clones, could you please delete the Nazi crap from this GUEST. In fact, I wouldn't be sorry if you deleted this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 09:56 AM

What a load of bollocks!

The land belongs to the arabs.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 09:54 AM

Where is the homeland for the Jews? Where did they originate?

http://www.wzo.org.il/en/resources/view.asp?id=1625

The Meaning of Homeland

The Zionist Imperative

The Jews' right to the land of Israel is comparable to that of a 'drowning man to grasp the only plank that can save him.' Because of our historical connection to it, this is the only land to which the Jews would have come to establish a homeland, but the land is not 'holy.' However, this is also the Palestinians' homeland, and that makes for a tragic clash of rights.

To Be a Jew

The land of the Jews could not have come into being and could not have existed anywhere but here. Not in Uganda, not in Ararat, and not in Birobidzhan. Because this is the place the Jews have always looked to throughout their history. Because there is no other territory to which the Jews would have come in their masses to establish a Jewish homeland. On this point I commit myself to a severe, remorseless distinction between the inner motives of the return to Zion and its justification to others. The age-old longings are a motive, but not a justification. Political Zionism has made political, national use of religious, messianic yearning, and rightly so. But our justification vis-a-vis the Arab inhabitants of the country cannot be based on our age-old longings. What are our longings to them? The Zionist enterprise has no other objective justification than the right of a drowning man to grasp the only plank that can save him. And that is justification enough. (Here I must anticipate something I shall return to later: There is a vast moral difference between the drowning man who grasps a plank and makes room for himself by pushing the others who are sitting on it to one side, even by force, and the drowning man who grabs the whole plank for himself and pushes the others into the sea. This is the moral argument that lies behind our repeated agreement in principle to the partition of the land. This is the difference between making Jaffa and Nazareth Jewish, and making Ramallah and Nablus Jewish.)

I cannot use such words as 'the promised land' or 'the promised borders.' Happy are those who believe, for theirs is the Land. Why should they trouble themselves with questions of morality or rights of others? (Although perhaps those who believe in the promise ought to wait humbly for the Author of the promises to decide when the right moment has come for Him to keep it.) Happy are those who believe. Their Zionism is simple and carefree. Mine is hard and complicated. I also have no use for the hypocrites who suddenly remember the divine promise whenever their Zionism runs into an obstacle or an inner contradiction (and go charging off in their cars with their wives and children every Sabbath to cherish the dust of the holy places.) In a nutshell, I am a Zionist in all that concerns the redemption of the Jews, but not when it comes to the 'redemption of the holy land.' We have come here to live as a free nation, not 'to liberate the land that groans under the desecration of a foreign yoke,' Samaria, Gilead, Aram, and Hauran up to the great Euphrates River. The word 'liberation' applies to people, not to dust and stone. I was not born to blow rams' horns or 'purge a heritage that has been defiled by strangers.'

Why here of all places? Because here and only here is where the Jews were capable of coming and establishing their independence. Because the establishment of the political independence of the Jews could not have come about in any other territory. Because here was the focus of their prayers and their longings.

To tell the truth, those longings were organically linked with the belief in the promise and the Promiser, the Redeemer, and the Messiah. Is there a contradiction here? As I have already said, religious feelings helped a secular, political movement to achieve an aim that was historical, not miraculous or messianic. The ancient yearning for the land of Israel was part of a total faith in the coming of the Redeemer. Faith, side by side with a common destiny, maintained the continuing unity of the Jewish people. But let us not forget, or allow others to forget, that it was not God or the Messiah or a miracle or an angel that achieved the independence of the Jews in their own land, but a secular, political movement with a modern ideology and modern tactics. Therefore, the Zionism of a secularist may contain a structural fault. I do not intend to gloss over this fault with phrases and slogans. I accept this contradiction, if such it be, and I say: here I stand. In our social life, in love, in our attitude to others and to death, we the non-religious are condemned to live with inconsistencies and faults. And that goes for Zionism too.

Consequently, my Zionism may not be 'whole'. For instance, I see nothing wrong with mixed marriage or with conversion, if it is successful. Only those Jews who choose to be Jews or who are compelled to be Jews belong, in my view, to this tribe. For them, and only for them, the State of Israel is a present possibility. I would like to make it an attractive and fascinating possibility.

I do not regard myself as a Jew by virtue of 'race' or as a 'Hebrew' because I was born in the land of Canaan. I choose to be a Jew, that is, to participate in the collective experience of my ancestors and fellow Jews down the ages. Albeit a selective participation: I do not approve of everything they approved of, nor am I prepared to continue obediently living the kind of life that they live. As a Jew, I do not want to live among strangers who see in me some kind of symbol or stereotype, but in a State of Jews. Such a State could only have come into being in the land of Israel. That is as far as my Zionism goes...

Right Against Right

As I see it, the confrontation between the Jews returning to Zion and the Arab inhabitants of the country is not like a western or an epic, but more like a Greek tragedy. It is a clash between right and right (although one must not seek a simplistic symmetry in it). And, as in all tragedies, there is no hope of a happy reconciliation based on a clever magical formula. The choice is between a blood bath and a disappointing compromise, more like enforced acceptance than a sudden breakthrough of mutual understanding.

True, the dispute is not 'symmetrical.' There is no symmetry between the constant, eager attempts of Zionism to establish a dialogue with the local Arabs and those of the neighboring states, and the bitter and consistent hostility the Arabs, with all their different political regimes, have for decades shown us in return.

But it is a gross mistake, a common oversimplification, to believe that the dispute is based on a misunderstanding. It is based on full and complete understanding: We have repeatedly offered the Arabs goodwill, good neighborliness, and cooperation, but that was not what they wanted from us. They wanted us, according to the most moderate Arab formulation, to abandon the idea of establishing a free Jewish State in the land of Israel, and that is a concession we can never make.

It is the height of naivete to believe that but for the intrigues of outsiders and the backwardness of fanatical regimes, the Arabs would realize the positive side of the Zionist enterprise and straightaway fall on our necks in brotherly love.

The Arabs did not oppose Zionism because they failed to understand it, but because they understood it only too well. And that is the tragedy: The mutual understanding does exist. We want to exist as a nation, as a State of Jews. They do not want that State. This cannot be glossed over with high-sounding phrases, neither the noble aspirations to brotherliness of well-meaning Jews, nor the clever Arab tactics of 'We will be content, at this stage, with the return of all refugees to their previous place of residence.' Any search for a way out must start from a fundamental change of position preceded by the open-eyed realization of the full extent of the struggle: a tragic conflict, tragic anguish.

We are here because this is the only place where we can exist as a free nation. The Arabs are here because Palestine is the homeland of the Palestinians, just as Iraq is the homeland of the Iraqis and Holland is the homeland of the Dutch. The question of what cultural assets the Palestinians have created here or what care they have taken of the landscape or the agriculture is of not relevance to the need to discuss their right to their homeland. Needless to say, the Palestinian owes no deference to God's promises to Abraham, to the longings of Yehuda HaLevi and Bialik, or to the achievements of the early Zionist pioneers.

Current talk about pushing Palestinian masses back to oil-rich Kuwait or fertile Iraq makes no more sense than would talking about our own mass emigration to 'Jewish' Brooklyn. Knaves and fools in both camps might add: 'After all, they'll be among their brothers there.' But just as I am entitled to see myself as an Israeli Jew, not a Brooklyner or a Golders Greener, so a Palestinian Arab is entitled to regard himself as a Palestinian, not an Iraqi or a Kuwaiti. The fact that only an enlightened minority of Palestinians seems to see it that way at the moment cannot prejudice the national right to self-determination when the time comes. Let us remember ' with all the reservations the comparison requires ' that it was only a Zionist-minded minority of Jews that ' justly! ' claimed the right to establish a Hebrew State here in the name of the entire Jewish people for the benefit of the Jews who would one day come to a national consciousness.

This land is our land. It is also their land. Right conflicts with right. 'To be a free people in our own land' is a right that is valid either universally or not at all.

As for the war between Israel and the neighboring Arab states, it is an indirect outcome of the confrontation between us and the Palestinians. Of course I am not going to explain everything away in terms of 'devotion' or 'brotherliness' on the part of the neighboring states. I only want to emphasize that the strife that has developed in the land of Israel must be resolved here, between us and the Palestinian people. There is nothing tragic in our relations with Cairo, Baghdad, or Damascus. The war they are waging against us is basically a war of aggressors against victims of aggression, even though our neighbors are armed, as usual, with self-righteous rhetoric. The Arab-Jewish tragedy does not extend, therefore, to the whole Middle East, as the Arab states claim, but is confined to this land, between the sea and the desert...

Between Two Possibilities of Zionism

I believe in a Zionism that faces facts, that exercises power with restraint, that sees the Jewish past as a lesson, but neither as a mystical imperative nor as an insidious nightmare; that sees the Palestinian Arabs as Palestinians Arabs, and neither as the camouflaged reincarnation of the ancient tribes of Canaan nor as a shapeless mass of humanity waiting for us to form it was we see fit: a Zionism also capable of seeing itself as others may see it; and finally, a Zionism that recognizes both the spiritual implications and the political consequences of the fact that this small tract of land is the homeland of two peoples fated to live facing each other, willy-nilly, because no God and no angel will come to judge between right and right. The lives of both, the lives of all of us, depend on the hard, tortuous, and essential process of learning to know each other in the curious landscape of the beloved country.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: cockney
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 09:38 AM

Isn't "Israel" the arab's land anyway?
Was it not stolen from them to create a state for Jews mainly the USA and Europe?

This gave the US a foothole in oil-land hey?

Why don't they give the land back to the arabs, then either live there in peace with the arabs in charge, or go back to the USA or wherever!

Could it be that no one wants them back?

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST,Number 6
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 08:42 AM

LH .... It wasn't arrragance that you saw in the The First Nations people, it was people who showed a cold shoulder directly to you. They couldn't take any more of your dogmatic rants anymore.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 03:55 AM

I truly appreciate the tone of the last couple of posts.

Robo, I totally agree when you say, "In any case I don't believe in an Israel that is dependent on the Us for existence. That is a doomed scenario."

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 02:26 AM

Your points about some of the other countries the USA backs (specially Saudi Arabia...and Egypt?) are well taken, robomatic, and I agree those countries are cynically using the Palestinians instead of helping them...as they could if they so decided.

I wouldn't say that the Israelis ARE like Nazis in every sense...obviously they are not as extreme. I'd say, though, that any group which becomes extremely militant about its own cultural identity to the point where it is pitted in an endless battle against other cultural groups is in danger of becoming Nazi-like as time goes by. That's a problem that could affect both the Zionists and their most determined enemies such as Iran, Syria, Hamas, the Saudis, Hezbollah...

It's dangerous when you base your activites around a clash of cultures. It doesn't generally produce much reason, just a lot of heat.

Anyway, you made a lot of good points there.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 12:56 AM

LH:

I may disagree with some of your points, but I admire your writing. I think there is plenty of open criticism of Israel, its people, its conduct. I don't sense a fear of criticizing Jews. I've seen plenty of criticism and disagreement about and with Jewish people and subjects. Most of it, in my experience, comes from Jews but it certainly ain't limited to 'em. About eight years ago a non-Jewish young woman wrote and had performed in my town a play about the Holocaust. She received some criticism and a lot of defense over it. I think we're beginning to see more of this on other supposedly PC-reserved subjects. And you have made free with your opinions, and I certainly react most strongly as I think you'd agree but I respect not condemn you, (except once about Shatner).

Anyhow, I think the image of Israel as bully is very much arranged and hyped. The truth is there are powerful forces arrayed against Israel by countries with essentially limitless resources. And they get their money from the USA, orders of magnitude more than Israel. These are huge social, economic, cultural, and financial sources. They are powerful enough to settle every one of the residents of Gaza and non-native residents of Jordan (itself a Palestinian State). But they choose to maintain the impoverished and miserable residents in place as an ever present wedge issue. They choose to fortify, arm, and defend many terror groups.

Israel is at present a 'local maximum' as far as conventional arms go. But the situation is fluid. The US is a sort of major maximum, but in reality conducting a balancing act which cannot last. In any case I don't believe in an Israel that is dependent on the Us for existence. That is a doomed scenario.

What will work is a stringent policy toward the terrorists. They cannot be allowed to find even a single winning strategy. They and the people they live among must be convinced that there is no violent way they will win out. They have been trying such a way. It involves violence and publicity. Many of the posters here are guests from outside who are aligned with that policy. They don't answer straight questions and constantly winge on about their chosen victims, whether or not the reports are verified.

Don't you see if the Israelis were Nazis now or ever: THERE WOULD BE NO PALESTINIAN PROBLEM!

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 12:36 AM

"If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy."

James Madison

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 11:51 PM

There is fear in this society, number 6.

People are afraid to name a wrong when it is committed by individuals belonging to certain special groups, and all those groups share one thing in common: they are all groups who have been very notably oppressed in our shared cultural past.

Women. Blacks. Native Americans. Jews.

These are all groups which I enthusiastically supported in my youth, hoping to see the day when they would achieve full equality.

I have not seen it.

What I have seen instead is a weird situation where the black community, though still suffering from many disadvantages in this society, has embraced in some cases an even more virulent form of prejudice than that practiced against them...where they can "pull the race card" and scream "racism!" in legal cases where it has nothing to do with the issue. Remember the O.J. Simpson trial? What a travesty that was.

What I have seen is a Jewish community so obsessed with its past victimhood that it feels totally justified now in victimizing others and terrorizing or vilifying anyone who calls that wrong.

What I have seen is some women with such a chip on their shoulders against men that they cannot see any situation involving a man impartially.

What I have seen is Native Americans who are more virulently prejudiced against whites than most whites are against them, and it's a terrible shame! I spent 30 years among Native Americans, attending powwows, going in the sweat lodges, practicing the Medicine Way, the whole bit...for my own personal reasons, which were entirely instinctive. I loved them just for who they were. I believed in the old ideals. But what I saw! The arrogance. The tacit assumptions of "victimhood" and the negative, crummy behaviour that arose out of that. The gossip and infighting amongst themselves. The presumptions of innate moral superiority over all who were not Native. The complete violation of the ideals of equality upon which are based true human brotherhood.

I saw the world of my young ideals turned upsidedown by people who had not the grace to rise above their tragic past, not the wisdom to find common ground with other people, not the humility to live and let live, not the vision to see beyond their group identity, and to judge the book by its contents, NOT its cover!

It's a bloody disgrace. The people I fought for in my youth have mostly fallen into the same kind of gross prejudice that their parents were trying to end!

That's what happens when you spend your whole life thinking "I'm a victim, they're all out to get me, but I'm going to get them instead. They'll be sorry!"

Yeah, I've seen it. And I know exactly what it is. It's the same twisted dark stuff that Hitler used to get the Nazis started in Germany.

Like the Who said, "I'm gonna get on my knees and pray...I don't get fooled again!"

When will the once oppressed have the decency not to become the new oppressors? That's what I want to know.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 11:30 PM

Of course I accept Israel's right to exist, bobad. Why would you possibly imagine I don't?

That is one of the truly annoying things about Israel's faithful supporters. They seem imagine that if someone disapproves of an Israeli attack or expansion of the lands it's holding...then that someone MUST, by definition, be a person who wants to see all Israelis (and Jews?) wiped out and the nation of Israel wiped off the map!

What presumption! Wouldn't it be convenient if everyone who disagreed with you was a genocidal monster?

Sorry. I fully support Israel's right to exist.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: number 6
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 10:47 PM

Oh ... by the way LH ... get zionists out of the equation ... Israel is a nation (whether you like it or not) ..... our 'society' (meaning Canada) does not incite fear into it's people in regards to tolerance .. it is by understanding, and respect of all races, creed, religion.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 10:36 PM

I felt the same way about both sides; but what changed my mind is seeing children indoctrinated into commiting murder and suicide. I have a great deal of sympathy for displaced people, and would like nothing more than to see a lasting peace between Israel and the Arabic nations. I am glad to see some Muslims are supporting the peace process, and renouncing the practise of brainwashing children into violence. The fact remains that the majority are not, and the violence gets worse no matter what Israel does.

The media reports are distorted and sensationalise the violence. Making statements that Israel is deliberately targeting civilians is false. Many civilians caught in this war, especially children are being used as shields by terrorists. Those terrorists are fighting without wearing uniforms, and so when killed, the removal of their weapons prior to being photographed is a tactic deliberately used to distort the truth. If you store weapons and explosives under and in civilian houses those houses and civilians are no longer considered non combatants.

Sadly the violence continues and innocent lives are lost and munitions go astray from both sides. There is no easy solution, no fair solution, only the desire to stop killing each other and build on a lasting peace will solve this war. I am not an optimist and fear that there can never be situation where peace can prevail between all the nations of the middle east. I hope I am wrong, I pray I am wrong, but experience tells me the extremists will not be content until war consumes us all. This will be my last post for some time, goodbye.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: number 6
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 10:36 PM

"I also live in a society where people hardly dare to criticize Zionism, for fear of being labelled anti-semitic, but anyone can criticize Arabs without fear, because Arabs are clearly thought of as less than equal, whether or not anyone says it openly."

I live in the same society LH ... I have yet to hear this society critize Arabs, sure it has it's faults but tolerance and repect is applied to all.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: bobad
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 10:27 PM

"I do know who is more lethal. That's been proven a thousand times over by now."

And that is the reason why the nation still exists today because if it were the other way around they would have been wiped off the map a long time ago. You do, of course accept their right to exist, do you not?