Real Ale v Lager

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Alec
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 10:03 AM

Free Houses,that is to say Pubs not owned by a brewery, almost invariably have a much wider selection of beers than tied houses (Pubs which are owned by a brewery)
Free houses are usually better Pubs all round.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 10:07 AM

So I assume that if you walked into a "free house" you would have to be a bit more specific than "give me a pint"?

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Alec
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 10:09 AM

Yup.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Alec
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 10:12 AM

Far and away the best Free House is The Mudcat Tavern.
Licensee LTS.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: MaineDog
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 10:30 AM

Harpoon IPA for me!
MD

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 10:34 AM

Talking of free houses: The UK pub sector has, since the 1980s, been complicated by the arrival of the pub chain or 'pubco'.

The UK government introduced new laws (known as the "Beer Orders") in the late 1980s to try to counteract the then oligopoly of the handful of large brewers that controlled the vast majority of UK pubs. The laws included limits on how many pubs a brewer could own. The idea was to try to free up the market, especially in areas of the country where a large brewer had a virtual monopoly, because they had gradually bought out all the competitors in the area.

Some of the large brewers did the decent thing and sold off pubs above the limit to smaller companies, while others cynically swapped pubs for breweries, so that Company A took over Company B's breweries, in exchange for Co. A's pubs - so we had a huge brewery with no pubs, and a huge pub company with no breweries of its own. Neither co. was breaking the new law. Of course, they had also agreed as part of the deal that "Brewco" would exclusively supply "Pubco's" pubs with beer. This was something the govt hadn't anticipated (perhaps short-sightedly, with the benefit of hindsight).

Then during the 1990s, some of the old breweries sold off their pubs to third parties (including Japanese banks and the like) to form new 'pubcos' - pub owning companies.

These pubs in theory were 'free houses' in that they weren't tied to any brewery. But being so large, they are able to exert strong pressure on breweries to supply them with beer at low prices. They then supply their supposedly 'free' pubs with these ales. Any brewery not on the approved list can't sell their beers in the chain's pubs. Smaller breweries in particular can't afford to supply the beers to the chains at the low prices they demand. At least one brewery (Brakspear) went bust by trying to undercut their competitors in this way (the company was later taken over and saved, after a fashion).

These pubco companies have been gradually acquiring more pubs, or taking over smaller chains, with the result that the genuine free houses (those without any tie to any other company) have almost disappeared. There are a small number of large chains that now own most of the country's pubs - not a lot different from the bad old days in many ways.

So, there are two types of free house: the genuinely free house, perhaps owned by the landlord, who is free to choose what beer he sells; and the 'pubco' free house, that can't.

Whenever I can, I try to support the 'real' free houses - I'd liek to see the law changed to prevent chains from calling their pubs free houses, but I haven't seen much interest from CAMRA in doing this.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 10:36 AM


You'd have to be more specific in any pub, even a tied house. You'd always be asked, "A pint of what?" as they pointed to the taps.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 11:21 AM

Yes, because even the worst-stocked pubs would have at least a bitter and a lager. Then they could have cider or Guinness on tap (cider is also drunk by the pint here).

So just asking for a pint would be no good.

The exception would be if you are a regular in the pub and you always drink the same thing. Then the barman would probably know what you drank and sometimes you wouldn't even need to order - he would start pouring out your beer as soon as you walk in.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: vectis
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 09:45 AM

I have drunk some excellent lagers in Europe but none in the UK and reports of American and Australian lagers are that they are a totally tastless fizzy drink served so cold that they shrivel your fillings.
I just prefer a decent pint (or several) of warm ale when I can get it/them.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 09:48 AM

My undersatnding of the difference between ale and beer ties in with some others I have seen including pepysdiary.com which says -

"Difference between Ale and Beer:
Officially beer is hopped and ale isn't, but that distinction isn't strictly observed. Hops preserve beer, as well as giving it its bitter flavour. Kent is the region of England famed for its hops, but Pepys talks of Margate (in Kent) ale as though it is famous, so the difference seems already to have been lost by 1660. (why brew a hopless ale in a hop growing region?)
Nowadays ale is used to refer to top fermented bitter (British) beers, as compared to bottom fermented lager (American, German, Australian, etc.) beers. That meaning would not have been valid in Pepys' time as true lagers only appeared in the 19th century"

So, beer and ale are not necessarily the same!

Interesting that Pinot Noir should be used as an example. Why use Noir (black) and Gris (grey) rather than Rouge or Blanc like other wine varieties? Because it is named after the grape so, strictly speaking again, Pinot Noir is not a wine - it is a grape! The most famous example of wines made from that being Burgundy.

Cheers (hic)

Dave in pedantic mode:-)

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 10:02 AM

Sorry Dave, that description expired in 1664.   

There seems to be a reluctance among you Brits to realize that you drink "beer" and by calling it "ale" makes it somehow better. Wrong!! Ale is beer.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Alec
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 10:17 AM

"Ale is Beer" All ales are beers but most beers are not ales.
The distinction outlined by Dave is still in use and still valid.
"There seems to be a reluctance among you Brits to realize that you drink "beer" and by calling it ale makes it somehow better"
Sorry WFDU I recognise all of the words in that "sentence" but in that configuration I cannot ascertain their meaning.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Scrump
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 10:23 AM

Yes, originally (many centuries ago, I can't remember when but it doesn't matter for the purpose of this discussion) the term 'ale' referred to unhopped beer, and 'beer' was hopped. The latter was an idea brought across to Britain from the continent, that was adopted in Britain because the hops' preservative properties gave the ale a longer shelf life.

But gradually the distinction between ale and beer was lost, and the two terms came to mean the same thing (partly because hardly any beer was made unhopped after a while, once hopping of beer in the UK became widespread and people had acquired the taste).

As we discussed higher up this thread, Ron, I was trying to explain that although the two terms mean the same thing literally, in today's everyday usage in the UK at least, it seems that 'beer' is a more generic term that can be used to cover any type of beer, whether it's lager, stout, bitter, draught [draft] or bottled, etc.

Whereas 'ale' has a more limited usage. For example, I've never heard anyone call a keg lager an 'ale' - yes, you could, but no-one does. I'm talking about the usage of the words, not their dictionary definitions.

I didn't say anything about 'ale' being 'better' than 'beer', and I can't see that Dave did. I agree with you that to claim so that would be incorrect. I don't know where you got that impression from, Ron, but I don't believe most people here (us 'Brits') believe that at all, i.e. that something called 'ale' is better than something called 'beer'.

You seem to have inferred that without it having been said, unless I missed something?

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 10:40 AM

Sorry Alec, I will try to type slower in the future.

Ale is beer. Lager is beer. Ale and Lager are beers. If Dave's distinction were true what you would be drinking would not contain hops. It does.

From what I am reading in thses posts, it seems that most of you folks living in the UK feel that "beer" is lager. Lager is merely a type of beer, just as ale is.


"I didn't say anything about 'ale' being 'better' than 'beer', and I can't see that Dave did"
Scrump, I realize that you are saying that ale and beer are the same thing, but the others do not seem to be saying that at all. No one would call keg lager an ale, that would not make sense. No one would call a keg of ale a lager either. Both are kegs of beer.

There still seems to be a reluctance to that fact when people say things such as "beer and ale are not necessarily the same."   Ale is beer.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 11:00 AM

If you read the full definition I posted, Ron, you will see that the writer agrees with what you say. So do I. At the end of the definition it says, "Nowadays ale is used to refer to top fermented bitter (British) beers, as compared to bottom fermented lager (American, German, Australian, etc.) beers. That meaning would not have been valid in Pepys' time as true lagers only appeared in the 19th century". Which I would also agree with.

I am not sure of your statement - "Wrong! Ale is beer." though. It suggests that the American language definition and by association your own is somehow better than anyone elses. I am sure you are right and I have no wish to argue personaly but to argue with the generic 'Brit' that either the American language or American brewing industry is somehow better than the longer established English one is, in my opinion, somewhat foolhardy:-)

Cheers

:D

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 11:09 AM

Dave, I guess we do have a problem with the language barrier.

What is confusing the hell out of me is that there seems to some sort of distinction being made that is coming out as "ale is not beer".   It has nothing to do with American or British brewing.   Ale is beer, pure and simple. Every country that brews beer would recognize that, yet there still seems to be a reluctance - even when you are supposedly ageeing with me.   Ale is a style of beer.

As to which brewing industry is doing a better job, it isn't age that determines skill. There are simply more craft brewers in the United States who are doing wonderful things with a variety of styles. Many styles that would have otherwise been forgotten have been resurrected. If you ever get to this side of the Atlantic, I will be happy to give you a taste test. I am sure if you tasted some of our pale ales, IPA's and bitters you would see the difference.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Scrump
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 11:27 AM

Yes, ale and beer are defined as the same thing. I'm just trying to explain that in the UK (it may be different in the US) the terms have different nuances in meaning, i.e. in everyday usage of the terms in the UK. These nuances are nothing to do with quality, just the type of ale or beer being referred to.

So, here you can call any beer (including stout, porter, mild, bitter, fruit beer, light ale, dark ale, lager, etc., etc., etc.) a beer. But you wouldn't normally call some of these 'ales' (even if technically it might be correct to so so).

It's nothing to do with quality, it's just custom or convention. So calling something an 'ale' doesn't necessarily imply that it's higher quality than if you call it beer (which is what Ron seemed to think we were saying earlier).

It's just that certain types of beer would not be called 'ales'. The example I gave was keg lager. Yes, you could call it ale, but no-one does, to my knowledge.

So all ales are beers, but not all beers are ales, in our usage of the terms, even if the dictionary says the two terms mean the same thing.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 11:41 AM

I think we are saying the same thing, in different words.

I NEVER, EVER said that all beer would be called ale. I am not sure where that came from.

I would not call a keg lager an ale. I would call a keg ale an ale, I would call a keg lager a lager.

All ales are beers, but not all beers are ales.

All lagers are beers, but not all beer is lager.

Ale and lager are beers.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 03:53 PM

During a 2 week stay in the St Louis Area I only managed to visit 2 micro breweries (1 in St Louis and 1 in St Charles, Illinois) but I was lucky enough to sample beers from at least 10 different ones:-) They are by far the best I have tried for a long time and have a bigger range than most in the UK. Only in Belgium did I find a better range of equivalent beers. I was there over 3 months though:-) Maybe if I stopped in the US that long I would find that it surpasses even the Belgians!

I am not disputing anything about the quality of US beer, Ron, and I don't think anything I said suggested otherwise. Sorry if it came across that way. The whole point is that there are probaby as many different views on this are there are beers (or ales)! None is right or wrong. They are just different. Taking an absolute standpint on this is aking to trying to tell everyone here what real folk music is - No one will ever agree.

The funny thing is that I generaly agree with your definitions but there are exceptions, particulary where you allow for the peculiarity of language. Adams ale is certainly not a beer by any stretch of the imagination;-)

Cheers

D.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 04:14 PM

Dave, next time you are in the states we can sit down and discuss it over a few pints!! I would be honored to buy you a few rounds and let you sample our best!

Belgian ale is hard to beat because the natural yeast and methods, and style is difficult to reproduce in another country. We do have a very good brewery that is brewing "Belgian style" ale - Ommergang.

I did not mean to say that U.S. beers surpass others. Some do. Some do not. Overall, the U.S. microbrew industry has done an excellent job at boosting these styles and quality.   I do think that we have more opportunities and create some very unique beers. Read Michael Jackson's work (not the pop star - the U.K. based beer and whiskey critic) and he will confirm.    There are outstanding beers all over the globe. Most people think of Bud and Coors when they think of U.S. beer and that is wrong!   I have to admit to buy both - they work great on keeping slugs out of the garden.

I sort of see your point about the usage of language. From a culinary point of view I do stand by what I've said. Local usage may vary, but it doesn't mean it is right - just hard to change.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 06:50 PM

Yer on, Ron, Ron, Ron
Yer on, Ron, Ron

(To add a musical flavour)

:D

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Scrump
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 08:45 AM

Hey, Ron - I agree with your post above (11:41 AM)

Maybe I'll join you guys for a beer... Cheers! :-D

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Ref
Date: 23 Feb 07 - 10:03 AM

Spent ten days in Gloucestershire-Cheltenham area last spring. Got LOTS of real ale inside me. No hangovers or big heads involved, maybe because of the real ale, maybe because of the surprisingly superb food served alongside. Here in USA I brew my own, but there's lots of good micro ales available. Mass market American beer is actually brewed to very exacting standards. Being mass market, though, they can't get too heavily onto distinctive flavors. After years of homebrew, the MM beers just taste light and sweet to me, but they're great cold quenchers when you're hot and sweaty.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,scientist
Date: 23 Feb 07 - 09:15 PM

Most real ale drinkers are hypocrites.

A mate of mine makes a big deal out of "real ale" sneering at my lovely pint of Fosters saying "It's full of chemicals" whilst I know for a fact that he lives on a diet of cheap sausages, pies and McDonalds.

Small groups of bearded scruffs congregate in my local pub whingeing about "It's a bit cloudy" "Tastes a bit off" "It's the end of the barrel" "It's a new barrel" "They don't serve a lot, so it's a bit stale" What a load of shite - they should not make excuses for stuff they have paid good money for, they should take it back to the bar and ask for a replacement or a refund.

I came upon another two friends at a new session started in a new venue. They both had long faces. "they haven't got any REAL ale, so we won't be coming here again" I have known these two for abot 5 years they usualy drink no more than a coke and a shandy, sometimes bottled water and a wine spritzer - what a load of bollox.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 07 - 07:43 AM

Most lager drinkers are hypocrites.

A mate of mine makes a big deal out of "Lager" sneering at my lovely pint of Holts saying "It's full of live yeast" whilst I know for a fact that he lives on a diet of muesli, cottage cheese and health food.

Small groups of desgner labelled cretins congregate in my local pub whingeing about "It's a bit cloudy" "Tastes a bit off" "It's the end of the barrel" "It's a new barrel" "They don't serve a lot, so it's a bit stale" What a load of shite - they should not make excuses for stuff they have paid good money for, they should take it back to the bar and ask for a replacement or a refund.

I came upon another two friends at a new session started in a new venue. They both had long faces. "they haven't got any fizzy crap, so we won't be coming here again" I have known these two for abot 5 years they usualy drink more than a gallon of Robinsons and a quart of Old Peculiar, sometimes bottled Hobgoblin and a good Chablis - what a load of bollox.

:D

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 12:28 AM

here we go again.

If someone said they love cheese but will only eat cheddar, or if they love seafood but only eat swordfish, then they have a very limited perspective and probably lack tastebuds.   They know what they like, and that is great, but they truly are not able to comment on the qualities of other styles.    Same with those who only drink ale or only drink lager - there is a lack of taste to understand what you are really drinking.   Enjoy it, but realize that your world is limited.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,Scientist
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 04:33 PM

Nice one dave

:)

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 04:44 AM

Glad you liked it, Scientist - I appreciated the irony of yours as well. You know what they say - Imitation is the best form of flattery;-)

Dave

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Mick Woods
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 03:32 PM

I'm thirsty again!!!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 07:52 PM

I grew up in Edinburgh drinking pints of Heavy, then moved to Geordieland, where I drank pints of Scotch. Moved to London where it was bitter till I started just asking for what it said on the label. Had a summer job at Scottish & Newcastle, where the only ammonia was for flushing the pasteuriser at the end of every week's run on the bottling plant.

I started drinking on a school trip to Köln, and still have a fondness for a füftel of Kölsch. I've never liked bland beers, so I've never taken to Bud. Budweiser is a different matter entirely, and my favourite lager is Staropranem dark, which I seem to have to go to Prague for since Tesco stopped stocking it. Just finished a rather nice bottle of Blue Moon (Belgian style wheat beer from North America - 5.4%).

It's thanks to CAMRA that I started drinking lagers after having been put off by things like Eau de Dundalk (Harp), though fortunately I knew better than be put off ales by such monstrosities as Red Barrel and Tartan.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Mavis Enderby
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 02:52 AM

If you are a home brewer you can make a very acceptable lager using one of the 40 pint lager kits, but use a proper lager yeast rather than whatever is supplied with the kit, and add some Saaz or Hallertau hops. Brew it in the winter so it can ferment at a lower temperature and allow a period of cold storage (lagering).

Makes an excellent brew for the hot summer days...

Pete.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Acorn4
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 05:03 AM

Surely the difference between real ale and lager is that lager passes through the body in an unchanged state!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: MikeL2
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 06:56 AM

Hi

This thread is a typical Mudkats thread that can create hundreds of comments where none of them are right except for the poster of the message.

Most of the replies to this one ( there are some exceptions ) assume a generality that beers are better than lagers.

The trhread was posted because of a link with folk music. This link was one that raises it's head here almost every day - that if folk music is only good if it is traditional and that it is in some way superior to anything else.

I have played and listened in folk clubs all over Europe for more years than I care to remember and sadly I have to agree with the people who say that Traditionists appear to think themselves superior and the centre of the Universe.

There much beautiful and great traditional stuff but there is also fantastic music that is looked down on by the " trad folkies ".

It's the same with beer and lager - not all beer is great and not all lager is crap.

But Jeff is right there does seem to be a preponderance of traditionists who also drink real ale and DO appear to think themselves superior to the rest of us that have different and differing tastes.

cheers

Now for a pint.....doon't care if it's beer or lager....as long as it is good.

Mike

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 08:55 AM

Lager is beer isn't it? I believe the name derives from the process 'lagering' which involves fermentation at a cooler temperature, for a longer period. I made it my mission, while in Belgium for 3 months, to try as many Belgian beers as possible - And note that they are called beers there. They were almost all good and varied from the almost black heavy brews, through the red 'Roden' beers to the palest of what are generaly described as lagers. The tastes were even more varied. The most avoided, apart from by a few, was Stella Artois!

DeG

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 03:30 AM

The trouble in the UK is that [ almost ] all the lagers on sale in pubs are steralised nitrokeg, chilled to death so you can't tell how flavourless it is, if you can find a ' real ' lager they are indeed very good to drink.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 04:13 AM

I think a lot of it is both the drinkers attitude and the licenced trade's attitude to them. Drink is not for savouring it is for getting pissed as quick as possible and making loads of dosh for the trade. Fizzy nitrokeg, of both the lager and ale varieties, keep well, are easy to serve and make the money. The advantage for the pissheads is that it goes down well and has the desired effect. Unfortunate but borne out, particularly by the under 25s, in every city cetre, every weekend:-(

DeG

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 04:29 AM

"From what I've heard, your pubs seem to only serve one or two brands"

These days, most UK pubs will have at least three hand-pulled, cask-conditioned beers. Some will have half a dozen or so. And there will, of course, also be the fizzy, pressurised draught stouts (Guinness or Murphy's) and lagers. White beers such as Hoegaarden and continental lagers such as Leffe also seem to be springing up everywhere.

Choice may seem limited in relative terms, but there isn't so much of a bottled beer culture in the UK as there is in America (though ironically, the one beer you always see in bottles in UK pubs, Newcastle Brown, is commonly available on draught in America these days). As with food, I actually prefer a smaller choice that's kept and served well to a huge menu which might not be as well-kept or as fresh.

"Here in the U.S. if you ask for an "ale", you would need to qualify it - do you want a bitter, a pale ale, a mild ale, an IPA, a stout, a porter, barley wine, etc."

Well, no one really goes into a pub and asks for "an ale" in the UK, to be honest. You ask for a pint of bitter, a pint of mild, a pint of IPA, etc. Re the choice of beers in America: yes, it's got better. Unfortunately, the beer is then served so cold, often in those ridiculous frozen glasses, that you can't taste the subtle differences between the various microbrews anyway. In my experience, the microbrew culture in the US also very much depends on where you live and the pubs/bars you frequent. So yes, if you are a beer enthusiast you can certainly find many more decent beers in American pubs these days than you could 20 years ago, but those pubs still are the exception rather than the rule in the places I visit when I go home (I spend most of my time in Long Island and New Jersey, but in recent years have also visited the Carolinas).

When I go into a pub or bar in the States, I usually say, "Give me the darkest beer you've got that's not Guinness." Bass is fairly common, as is this fizzy, cold, draught Newkie Brown. But often the best they can do is something like Yuengling, which is a fairly uninteresting lager, IMHO. And even the darker beers most pubs/bars serve tend not to be cask conditioned real ales, but processed, carbonated keg versions. Presumably that's because keeping cask conditioned beer is a tricky business, and you really need a qualified cellarman to do the job. But the difference in the character of the beer is huge.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 04:34 AM

"From what I've heard, your pubs seem to only serve one or two brands"

We are lucky in Sheffield but on the annual count of different beers on sale in Sheffield I seem to remember it comes to around 150 different beers available on "that" weekend each year.

All the pubs I go in have a range. (Except Sam Smith's pubs - but that is another story - and the beer is only around £1.40 around $0.80 for a pint. It isn't normal!!)

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Stu
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 05:38 AM

Seven or so on handpump, plus Westons cider and a straight-from-the-farm cider in a plastic container in our local. There is a rumour that the landlord is gong to take the fizzy key urine lagers off altogether.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 08:05 AM

"There seems to be a reluctance among you Brits to realize that you drink "beer" and by calling it "ale" makes it somehow better. Wrong!! Ale is beer."

I think part of the confusion comes from the distinction between what is termed "real ale" (as in the Campaign for Real Ale) in the UK and processed, carbonised "tap" beers. What we call "real ale" often IS a superior product. It is cask-conditioned. It is alive, and once delivered it has to be left alone to settle for a period of time before the cask can be tapped. It is a more artesan product. Even the way it is served - through hand-pull pumps - is different to the electronic taps for other types of beer. This is a very different product from keg beers, which are injected with chemicals to make them fizzy, and where the priority is in making the product as stable as possible for transport and convenience.

I would hasten to add that you can buy very nice hand-pulled, cask-conditioned lagers. You can also buy crappy keg bitters off the tap (John Smith's Smooth, anyone?). So it's not about style - it's about method.

The joy of real ale is that every pub is an adventure. You try different products with widely varying tastes and characters. Some are rubbish, I'll admit, but many are sublime.

Ron, the tendency to use the word "ale" or the term "real ale" is because, like folk, beer drinking had its own revival in the UK. From what I've been told it was in a pretty parlous state back in the 70s (I have heard of, but never experienced, the joys of Watney's Red Barrel and the Party Seven). The Real Ale movement was a concerted effort to bring beer drinking back to its roots and to rehabiltate the image and the culture of beers that were British in character, as the market was being overrun by homogenous imported lagers and poor-quality keg beers. So maybe that's why people seem a bit chippy. :)

I love real ale. I even love that it has its own mythology and heritage - has anyone ever heard of a thunderstorm turning the beer?

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 08:35 AM

Ruth I refer you to' The Tale Of Ale ' and two tracks, Andrew Boorde On Ale and Andrew Boorde On Beer, he subtly explains the difference.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: MARINER
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 04:48 PM

I don't mind a pint or two of "Real Ale" although I have drunk some that seem to have travelled through the landlords kidneys before it came to me . I can also enjoy a pint of English Keg Beer and in the Boston area of the U.S.I like a Sam Adams .I'm easy. What pisses me off is the Real Ale brigade constantly bangin' on about how great a paticular real ale is as opposed to the mass produced stuff!. I travel to Stockton-on -Tees once a year to visit an old shipmate who is prepared to travel miles to some obscure pub to drink one pint of "Old Dogs Bollocks" or some other quaintly named beer. Personally I like the ol' pint of Smithwicks here in Ireland. I have even sampled it in America !But beware!it was vile!.
Local beers in Austria are generally fine.No after taste and no hangovers !

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 05:16 PM

"Personally I like the ol' pint of Smithwicks here in Ireland. I have even sampled it in America !But beware!it was vile!.

I had it on tap at an Inn in West Virginia, and it was fine.... so I bought some in bottles here in Maryland, and it WAS vile. Maybe it was old....I dunno, but I won't take chances again.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 05:45 PM

I knew somebody somewhere must be drinking Smithwicks. We took a band to Ireland years ago when they had a promotion on - a pint and a half (30 flozs) for the price of a pint with a free glass, and still nobody would buy it, apart from us, just to get the glass, then back to the Guinness! Is it much different from Kilkenny?

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 08:46 PM

Leave it to the Scots:

Tactical Nuclear Penguin

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: MARINER
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 05:31 AM

I think Smithwicks and Kilkenny are about the same.Have you ever tried the old Wexford brew now sold in the States as George Killian's Red Ale ?

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 10:08 AM

Smithwicks and Kilkenny are similar, as they are brewed in the same brewery...... (When I sued to work in Ireland years ago, you could only get Smithwicks if you didn't want stout, (well in most bars anyway.) It just about made it palatable if you had a Guinness top.

Regarding the actual debate....

Ale vs lager?

That's like saying roast beef vs custard.

They all have their place. I drink bitter most of the time, (also love stout,) and sometimes if I am thirsty or in an Indian restaurant, I prefer lager.

Wasn't sure it was a competition. I don't like celery, but I don't compare it to a stick of Blackpool rock and sneer at people eating it!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: MARINER
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 04:20 PM

" Wasn't sure it was a competition. I don't like celery, but I don't compare it to a stick of Blackpool rock and sneer at people eating it!"
Fair play Steamin' Willie, That's the point I was trying to make. These CAMRA types sneer at other people because they don't subscribe to the their idea of what is good beer and try to foist their opinion on you.
Are there such a thing as Ale or Beer Nazis?

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 04:31 PM

Hands up! I like cold lager-beer. Usually get the German or Czech beers if at supermarket (and I do check the label for added unecessaries). On tap, it's a pint of wife beater. That'll be the ladette in me, which is definitely present under the influence.
Those White Beers are fantastic Summer drinks too.
Never got into real ale for some reason, though a tasty Stout I can enjoy - in moderation.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: HuwG
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 06:24 PM

CAMRA can, unfortunately, become Real Ale Nazis, but the fundamental point they made back in the 1970s is still as valid. Variety and quality of beer and pub service is under threat from homogenisation of the brewing industry and legislation which seems designed to target pubs and breweries.

The (British) government's knee-jerk reaction to, say, binge drinking among teenagers, has been to attack pubs, which they do not frequent, and impose ever-higher duties on draught beers and ales, which they do not drink, while leaving city centre bars which offer ridiculous deals on strong liqours, off-licences (corner shops which sell bottled and canned drink), and importers and distillers of ersatz vodka to flourish.

Many of the former tied pubs were acquired by "pubcos"; companies which manage chains of public houses. These pubcos seem determined to make every pub in Britain a carbon copy of some mock-Tudor template. They also have an unfortunate record of leaving the fabric of some pubs for which they cannot find tenant landlords willing to accept usurious terms of occupancy, to decline to the point where demolition is the only option.

Mercifully, some of the microbreweries are not only continuing to operate, but to flourish, with customers attracted by word of mouth and local interest.