Songs about Vietnam War

Subject: RE: Songs about Vietnam War
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Mar 99 - 09:08 PM

To those who get it - Thanks.
To those who said thanks, You are welcome.

Mick

Subject: RE: Songs about Vietnam War
From: Barry Finn
Date: 01 Mar 99 - 10:58 PM

Mick, you paint a fine picture, well done. I'm glad to see you finally came home whole. My brother came home but I never got him back, I lost a good deal of my childhood friends & those that did get home, like my brother, didn't really come back & a good percentage of those died silently in a gutter or an alley with a needle or a gun in hand & as an unsung hero. I never went Mick, I was fighting my own war, I was one of the last of the 4F's, (I don't feel at all guilty, those that spent time in hell will have their peace) they took one look at me & determined I'd be a foul influence with any that I served with. By that time I'd already served 2 prision sentences & was a junkie by 15, so when my chums came back we had all fought some sort of war, some here & some there & we could bury our cares & ourselves, together, around the same cooker & syringe. When you & others left for Nam the soul of a nation was torn & you can't divide a country's youth without the terrible backlash that came along with this split. So, some may have called you babykiller Mick but I really believe it was misdirected anger felt from the gross loss of life, love, loved ones & the total neglect of human worth on the part of those that sent you & divided us. Thirty years later many are still a long way from home, hopefully we'll never have to see any other kids walk those same long & terrible roads to hell, home is where we should all be. To your health & heart Mick. Barry

Subject: Lyr Add: THE FOURTH DAY OF MAY (Thom Bishop)^^
From: Art Thieme
Date: 01 Mar 99 - 11:06 PM

THE FOURTH DAY OF MAY
by Thom Bishop
tune: "The Bold Fenian Men"

On the 4th day of May I want out a-walkin,
'Twas a bright sunny day, 'til I heard someone talking,
I listened a while to the things they were sayin'
Glory-o, glory-o, there were 4 killed at Kent!

With fists clenched so tightly, I walked through the town there,
I went to the commons to see what was down there,
There were banners a-flyin'--loudspeakers all 'round there,
Glory-o, glory-o, there were 4 killed at Kent.

Now it's nearly_______ years since the guns was a-blazin',
And it seems we've gone numb in the process of aging,
For not much has come from that war we were waging,
Glory-o, glory-o, there were 4 killed at Kent.

by Thom Bishop
posted by Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Songs about Vietnam War
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Mar 99 - 11:25 PM

And to yours, Barry, and all. I have never thought ill of those that didn't go, and I hope I didna leave that impression. I, like you, my dear friend, felt that the whole of the reaction was sympomatic of the times and the ills. Part of the healing for us was realizing that the reaction in the airport, and in the larger media, to us was not personal, but rather directed at society as a whole. And I have always felt that those who chose to fight against the war, were in many cases, very brave. I have a picture I treaure of three young men, all dressed in bell bottoms, and striped tees and sandals. Two have long hair and beards, and the third is very clean cut. The picture was taken of my best friend and me on the day I was shipping out for Treasure Island in transit, and he was heading to Canada. My father hated him for that, and couldn't figure out why I didn't. But I knew Mack's heart and I knew he was giving up everything for what he believed in. And years later, he proved it. When amnesty was offered, Mack came home. But he refused the amnesty and told the authority's that he hadn't done anything wrong. And if they felt he had, then they should try him and jail him. They did try him, Mack pleaded not guilty, and was acquitted of the most serious charges. He did get nipped on some minor charge and worked his community service off in a hospital. And then he went back to Canada. While I struggled with my feelings about most things, I never felt anything but admiration for him. And I miss him today.

But, as for you Mr. Finn, congratulations on the outcome of your own battle. It is never about the end, it is always about the struggle. There is always another demon to slay, and one must never stop the battle. I am proud to be your friend. And dwditty, and Roger in Baltimore, and Lonesome EJ, and Ritchie.........I had no more than submitted the message than I was asking myself what the hell I had done that for. But your messages answered the question for me. All of you who read it and attempted to understand, whether you agreed or disagreed with its premise/purpose, remind me why I love our community so.

Mick

Subject: To Anne re Vietnam songs
From: ddw in windsor
Date: 02 Mar 99 - 12:48 AM

sorry about the delay, Anne, and about the new thread; I tried to post to the old one when I logged on tonight, but there was no message box at the end of the thread. Is there an automatic cutoff when a lot of info is posted to a thread?

Anyway, the book I was talking about earlier is The Vietnam Songbood, bu Barbara Dane and Irwin Silber. It was published in 1969 by The Guardian, 197 E. 4th St., N.Y., N.Y., 10009 and distributed by Monthly Review Press, 116 West 14th St. N.Y., 10011.

You got such a terrific response to your original thread you may not need this any longer, but I promised it, so I thought I'd send it along.

This book has more than 100 songs, mostly from the U.S., but also from Canada, Australia, New Zealand, England and several other countries around the world -- including some from Vietnam itself. The tone and most of the songs are of protest, so you won't find any Barry Sadler tunes, but there are enough light-hearted and/or funny tunes, spoofs, etc. to be able to present the era to today's kids without turning them off because they don't understand. Lord knows, we want them to remember what happened to their dads and moms during that time and especially what happened to people like Big Mick.

ddw

Copied to the Vietnam thread which seems to be working OK.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Songs about Vietnam War
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Mar 99 - 02:05 AM

And now Mick it's clear how you mistook my why. I've waited and read with great interest and empathy every post as it's come up. Like you, I don't sing of rights or wrongs, hawks or doves, liberal or conservatives...those are the whys I can't answer, none of us can. We all came from similar backgrounds, or at least had parents of the generation of WWII who saw the job that needed to be done and went out and did it. I was raised by parents who said; Do what you must, Say what you believe...But Boy, you better be able to back that up! My frustration with many teens today is that they have no back up...they just want to do this or that "because they want to." Wouldn't have worked at my house. Not at yours either huh?

I don't know when I came to see the war differently. It was not a cataclysmic or religious moment. It happened over time. No bright and shining truths, just a pervasive angst. Many had deep moral convictions in non-violence, religious beliefs, and ethics. Not me. No, I was simple. It had never been a question to me over whether or not I could kill someone. I'd listened at the knee of WWI & II vets, men I admired and wanted to emulate...and I knew I could do it too. Our country was going through wars on many fronts then and it became apparent that perhaps I wasn't hearing the truth from those in power...and for the first time it began to dawn on me. I'm going to go half way around the world and kill people before they kill me...I hope. And when I do, how am I going to feel about it? If they were going to ask I do this, then I needed a reason to fall back on and justify things when it was over. The deeper my search into the why of the war, the stronger my antipathy for it. And guys started coming home weaker than our friend Mick and went over the edge. Mick, the bravest thing you did was to walk away from the cliff...I may well have gone over. What bothered me most was that our country was asking us to do it for...for what??? So if I felt that strongly, was it right to take a C.O. position? No. How about Canada? No, if I really wanted my country to understand, the fight was here. End the war and get everybody out of that position of having to wipe out their natural, human, emotions so they could go on with a war that had the weakest of foundations. Some came home without trauma, most did not. Some are names on the Wall.

So I did what I could do as an individual. I notified the draft board that I was relinquishing my II-S deferment AND my draft card which I cut in two and enclosed. Then the talk with my parents. After several days I did convince them that I was not only serious but they were able to see my logic and point of view. Though they feared this would ruin my life, they saw I was doing what I believed was right. Both have been gone for many years now, but I bless them everyday for the strength and upbringing they gave me. I told them many times they should be the happiest parents on the planet...I did that which they taught me. I'm sure it probably wasn't what they had in mind.

So off I went to Petersburg where I was able to improve my pickin' skills at the expense of the Federal government. It doesn't rank as one of the top experiences of my life, but then again, it's not meant to!

And now here we all are in 1999; not old men, but certainly older. Yes Mick, old men start wars where young men die. Barry,Roger,Ritchie,Mick,dwditty,Lonesome EJ,BSeed, et al...if VietNam has a legacy, may it be that we, the "babykillers" and "traitors" alike, can keep our children and grandchildren safely away from the choices we had to make. Bless you all.

catspaw

Subject: To Anne re Vietnam songs
From: ddw in windsor
Date: 02 Mar 99 - 03:34 AM

sorry about the delay, Anne, and about the new thread; I tried to post to the old one when I logged on tonight, but there was no message box at the end of the thread. Is there an automatic cutoff when a lot of info is posted to a thread?

Anyway, the book I was talking about earlier is The Vietnam Songbood, bu Barbara Dane and Irwin Silber. It was published in 1969 by The Guardian, 197 E. 4th St., N.Y., N.Y., 10009 and distributed by Monthly Review Press, 116 West 14th St. N.Y., 10011.

You got such a terrific response to your original thread you may not need this any longer, but I promised it, so I thought I'd send it along.

This book has more than 100 songs, mostly from the U.S., but also from Canada, Australia, New Zealand, England and several other countries around the world -- including some from Vietnam itself. The tone and most of the songs are of protest, so you won't find any Barry Sadler tunes, but there are enough light-hearted and/or funny tunes, spoofs, etc. to be able to present the era to today's kids without turning them off because they don't understand. Lord knows, we want them to remember what happened to their dads and moms during that time and especially what happened to people like Big Mick.

ddw

Transferred from another thread. -Joe Offer-

Subject: Lyr Add: THE CANADIAN TRAVELER (Art Thieme)^^
From: Art Thieme
Date: 02 Mar 99 - 11:27 AM

That war took us all---those who went, those who didn't, those who went to Canada and those, like me, who were not 4-F, but were 1-Y.---That meant my knee (from football) was what the army called "internally deranged" and they wouldn't take me. (Some said it was my head that was 1-y.) But I wrote this song in Western Canada in the September of 1969. Many who fought that war at home and in Canada have their own sad tales to tell. We've all paid and continue to pay the price for Lyndon Johnson's and McNamara's war.

"THE CANADIAN TRAVELER"
by Art Thieme
---tune: "Come All You Tramps And Hawkers"
(words influenced by "Buffalo Skinners" and "Peter Emberly"--the former being a great traditional American Western ballad, and the latter is a great Canadian traditional ballad of death in the lumber woods.)

My name is not important, Alberta is my home,
I left the plains of America in Canada for to roam,
I left the pains of America to escape an unjust war,
But little did I ever think what the fates did have in store.

It was in the town of Calgary in the Spring of '63,
A man by the name of St.Laurent come steppin' up to me,
Said, "How do you do, young fellow, and how would you like to go,
And change the course of the Kicking Horse near the valley called Yoho."

Well, me bein' out of employment to this fellow I did say,
"This going out on your survey crew depends upon the pay."
"Well,I will pay good wages, transportation to and fro,
If you will accompany me to the valley called Yoho."

Well, it's now we've crossed the raging tide and our troubles have begun,
But I lost half of all my gear and then I broke my thumb,
One fell and died among the rocks--one died of cold and snow,
One fell into the foaming wash of the river called Yoho.

Our time bein' near over, St. Laurent he did say,
The boys had been extravagant were in debt to him that day,
We tied him up and left his knife just ten feet from his hands,
And we headed into the wilderness of that big Peace River land.

Oh, there's danger on the ocean where the waves roll mountains high,
And there's danger on the battlefield where the angry bullets fly,
And there's danger in the old north woods where I am forced to roam,
'Til folks of worth find peace on Earth, my footsteps crunch the snow.

(repeat first verse)

Subject: RE: Songs about Vietnam War
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Mar 99 - 07:37 PM

Interesting song Art...Did your audiences like it, get it, whatever?

catspaw

Subject: RE: Songs about Vietnam War
From: Art Thieme
Date: 02 Mar 99 - 09:14 PM

Catspaw, You asked: "Did your audience get it, like it, whatever"?

Only if I set it up right. Then the audiences got it.

It was usually part of a medley of designed to show the many terrible faces of (the) war:

"If I Were Free To speak My Mind" (I'd tell a tale to all mankind, 'Bout how the flowers do bloom and fade, 'Bout how we fought and the price we paid.)JUST THE CHORUS, TO TIE THE SONGS TOGETHER.

"Ruby, Don't Take Your Love To Town" by Mel Tillis

"Franklin Roosevelt Told The People How He Felt" from the Almanac Singers--Pete leading.(We damn near believed what he said, He said, "I hate war and so does Elanore, But we won't be safe 'til everybody's dead."-----an interesting anti-war song from WW2.

Then the above song---"The Canadian Traveler"

Ended with the chorus to "If I Were Free To Speak My Mind".

This medley did vary. Generally, "The 4th Day Of May" by Thom Bishop (posted by moi in this thread earlier) was in the medley---depending on how the audience seemed to be reacting. Sometimes Ed McCurdy's song "Strangest Dream" was included too... I did variations of this until the war was "over". And then for another year or two on occasion...

Art

Subject: RE: Songs about Vietnam War
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Mar 99 - 01:22 AM

Mick,

I've just bawled my eyes out, in my latecoming to this thread. While I was in my early teens, I knew several older boys who went to Vietnam and never returned. I've been to the Wall in Washington. I have never in my life read anything as eloquent and telling as your posting; it obviously came from the heart and soul which is you.

While WWII was held up to us all as the "big one", noble, etc. it, too, had late day casualties which our government would deny and hide. My uncle Howard joined the Marines when he was only 17. Was at Guadacanal and in a foxhole for some ungodly long time, wounded and hospitalized in New Zealand for over a year before he could return home.

He had shrapnel in his leg and some which traveled up by his heart which the doctors said could kill him at anytime, this when he was in his early 20's. He was a closet alcoholic, a brilliant jazz clarinetist, an exquisite woodworker who never talked much about the war, had a civil service job for the rest of his life, then retirement.

He tried for years to get on disability, fought the bureaucrats for years, even testified in Washington, to no avail.

Unable to talk to anyone about his pain and memories and unable to drown them in booze anymore, he decided not to continue live with the pain and the memories of the horrible deaths and destruction he'd seen and perpetrated: he blew his brains out in 1993, on Bastille day, which happens to be my youngest daughter's birthday. I consider his death to have been a delayed casualty of that war.

Thank you and may Peace be with you always.

Katlaughing

Subject: RE: Songs about Vietnam War
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Mar 99 - 08:09 PM

Catspaw, I did indeed miss where you were coming from, and I am very grateful that you corrected my view. I am thankful to you for sharing your experience, and I would love to know more about it and how it shaped the person that you are now. My guess is that you spent many hours before and since that time weighing your decision and trying to come to grips with it. And though we took different paths, I believe the similarities would be striking. I salute your courage in facing up to what you believed in,acting on it, even though it meant that there was a very large price to pay. I don't often talk of those times, and all that I went through in trying to deal with it. I suspect that you don't either, so I appreciate your sharing with us. Experiences like yours and mine are two sides of the same coin for our generation.

Katlaughing, Thanks for your story, as it points out a very important reality. There are a lot of casualty's of war, whose name will never show up on a memorial anywhere, like your Uncle. One of my closest friends in this world had a brother-in-law who was so emotionally traumatized by his experiences in and after 'Nam that he finally died of a complete loss of desire to live. He wrote a rambling poem about it before he died. The form and style he used is not good, but one can hear the pain very clearly. My friend gave it to me and for 7 or 8 years I have been trying to put it to music. It is painful to read, but one day I will find a way to get this done.

Once again, thanks to all for your postings and your understanding.

Mick

Subject: RE: Songs about Vietnam War
From: Night Owl
Date: 04 Mar 99 - 12:51 AM

I wish, I wish, I wish......Cat's Paw and Big Mick could get together and write us a healing song based on the similarities of their individual courage and strength of character. Forgive my ignorance if such a song exists currently....?

Subject: RE: Songs about Vietnam War
From: Neil Lowe (inactive)
Date: 04 Mar 99 - 10:06 AM

One of the most interesting aspects of threads is how they evolve over time and metamorphose into something the originator may have not originally intended....

I've been following this one with particular interest, for, although I was too young to have participated in the Vietnam travesty, I was old enough to have been affected by it, having spent 16 of my first 18 years (if you take the "official" beginning and end of U.S. involvement in the "police action" as 1959 to 1975, respectively - isn't that what's listed on the Wall?)under its auspices. So I remember having it piped into our living room via the modern miracle of television, with fresh footage each night of operations under way and field reporters with cameras rolling, crouched down with a soldier asking "How do you feel about the war?" just as he pops out from behind his cover to squeeze off a few rounds at an invisible enemy.

Observationally speaking, the journalistic visual media may have had as much to do with turning popular sentiment away from the war as the various forms of protest, maybe more so. As long as Middle America could be fed the idealistic pabalum "at the end of a long newspaper spoon," as William Burroughs put it, minus the imagery, we could insulate ourselves from the obscenity of war and instead mentally run little video clips of John Wayne-type acts of heroism to pacify our worried minds. But start broadcasting images into the home of shirtless and bandaged young men being medivac'ed out of some hot spot and Mom and Pop start to realize, "Hey that could be our little Johnny." Then all the romantic notions of "just causes" and righteousness begin to fade, as does the support for putting U.S. troops in harm's way. It's notable that there was a media blackout for the invasion of Grenada, Panama, and the Gulf War. I guess the warmongers learned their lesson well.

Subject: RE: Songs about Vietnam War
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 00 - 01:41 AM

Refresh

Subject: RE: Songs about Vietnam War
From:
Date: 01 Feb 00 - 02:52 AM

I've got one titled "Little Pills - from the Barrel of a Gun" - you can hear part of it at http://songs.com/jims

and how 'bout some new lyrics for "Ballad of the Green Berets"?

Fighting morons from the sky
Stupid jerks, they jump and die
Don't want no wings, on my sons' chest
I like living children best

Subject: RE: Songs about Vietnam War
From: Mary G
Date: 01 Feb 00 - 03:04 AM

i helped to bury a green beret not long ago and I personally didn't find those new lyrics very appealing.

mg

Subject: RE: Songs about Vietnam War
From: GUEST,canoer
Date: 01 Feb 00 - 03:27 AM

I must mention John McCutcheon, Christmas in the Trenches (sorry I haven't learned how to underline with this computer yet). May be set in WW I -- but it's true anytime.

Subject: RE: Songs about Vietnam War
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Feb 00 - 05:28 AM

Thanks for this thread.

It contains the BEST, from ALL of you.

All the best from all of me.

Roger

Subject: RE: Songs about Vietnam War
From: InOBU
Date: 01 Feb 00 - 08:29 AM

Hey Mick:
Your post brought me back to the worst of a time which I often feel conflicted about. I was involved in the Veitnam War resistence. Many I worked with came to the resitence to that war because they went through what you did. I discovered that, though raised a Quaker, I was not a pasifist, and if the government wants to arrest me for lies on my CO statement, go ahead... I went to Belfast for similar reasons to those that you speak of in your understanding of Veitnamese nationalism. Belfast was not the central highlands of Vietnam, but it was intence in the seventies. It changes one, but I dont feel that short of those who where interned and tortured in Ireland, the damage to self from the American in Veitnam experience is unique.
The Irish Arts Center, back when it had political meaning, was begun by many of us who where of the Veitnam war generation, and infact overlapped the end of the war. There was a haunted look in the eyes of those who had come back form Veitnam, and an anger, that often just simmered at those who were the next generation or so removed from the event that they didnt know where not to tread.
That war continued to claim my friends for years after, many who were Arts center members. As a generation, I am often reminded of the WW1 lost generation. They could not understand the air headed jazz age, and haunted the margins of those times.
I know it is little to say, Mick, but we must not forget that as a generation, we all did great things, though not for the obvious benefit of the WW2 generation. There was no good to come out of the horror and hurt, but as amny have said, the huge courage to get into life again, was a victory and triumph. That there is a generation after those times is a triumph.
I feel there is not a way in words to express what I am trying to say, Mick, other than your memories help others to grow, so may be there will be a day when we dont alow differences to be settled in this horrible way.
Larry

Subject: RE: Songs about Vietnam War
From: Amos
Date: 01 Feb 00 - 09:34 AM

Sweet mother of God, Mick; your posts on this thread,and the chorus it has inspired, is some of the greatest sound I have heard in my life.

I'm sorry I came late to it. I agree your posts should be required reading for high school graduates and would like to see it made permanent.

I have little I can add, of any substance, but from a later place in time let me add my thanks to those that you spoke to originally. Guess the thing to do now is wipe the eys and get on towrd the fuiture; but I will not forget the images you (and the others here) have created for us for a long time. Thanks, friend.

A

Subject: RE: Songs about Vietnam War
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 01 Feb 00 - 09:41 AM

Cannot post so I sent a private one to Big Mick...Still hurts mates, even after all these years..Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: Songs about Vietnam War
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Feb 00 - 10:06 AM

Several things strike me about this thread.

First, it was the beginning of a very close friendship between Mick and I. I'd been on the 'Cat only a few months and was hesitant about being any more open than I was, but it was a lot to say at that point in time. What's most important is that it was enough for Mick and I to gain respect for each other and talk about wounds that never heal. Its no secret around here that we are good friends. This is where it began.

Second, I was impressed at the broad spectrum of experiences related here. Not every experience was represented, but the cross section was certainly there. And yes, Shambles, I agree with your statement regarding this thread.

Last, I let a friend read it who is a high school government teacher and he asked he could have a copy. I said no. This was a very personal thread and I would want permission from everyone on it before I gave it to anyone. But we discussed something else which I've thought about since. If you took this and a few other experiences and put them into a one act "Tableau" style one act play, with music, and using the real words written here.........I have a vision of this that's hard to explain. Anyway, it would be an excellent way of teaching the time period to future generations.

Subject: RE: Songs about Vietnam War
From: Amos
Date: 01 Feb 00 - 10:14 AM

Oh, 'Spaw, I knew you were good fer sumpn --= this is a brilliant idea and would render the most vivid, moving theatre, kept simple and sparse with the primary force being the voices; they could even speak from darkness, if the right voices were used. Won't you write it? You and Mick and those who gave to the thread! It would be the best thing in the off-Bway loop!

A.

Subject: RE: Songs about Vietnam War
From: MMario
Date: 01 Feb 00 - 10:35 AM

I saw something very similair done by a group of high school students in a "black box" environment - the students wrote the dialogue themselves, one taking his father's viewpoint as a marine veteran of 'nam whose entire platoon was wiped out the day after he was taken out with a fragmentation grenade, the other taking the viewpoint of HIS father, who had "gone underground" to evade the draft.

Not only did it have an incredible impact on the audience, but what the boys and the rest of the cast went thorugh emotionaly during the rehearsals was ...well, there really isn't any way to describe it. But it left the younger generation with, I believe, a bit more understanding of their parents.

Subject: RE: Songs about Vietnam War
From: Sorcha
Date: 01 Feb 00 - 11:52 AM

I have been sitting here for the better part of an hour trying to get up courage to add to this.....with tears running down my face, for all of you who went and all of you who didn't. I don't think I can add anything very coherent, but I was 18 in '69 and I still don't think I'm ready to visit the Wall. My 15 yr. old daughter went last spring and brought me photos of some names I asked for. Took me weeks just to look at the photos. Aw shucks, I'm bawling again.Thank you all.......I miss them all so much.All the fine young men.....

Subject: RE: Songs about Vietnam War
From: Amos
Date: 01 Feb 00 - 11:56 AM

Now...'sPaw, capture what Sorcha has aid, add it to the weaving, and build the thing! It needs to go out to the world.

Subject: RE: Songs about Vietnam War
From: Amos
Date: 01 Feb 00 - 01:15 PM

Refresh for 'Spaw!

A

Subject: Lyr Add: Heed Their Call^^
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 01 Feb 00 - 02:17 PM

"Heed Their Call" Yours,Aye.Simply Dave

There are many names and monuments
To the ones who went before
There are many blank one's waiting
So go and visit The Wall
Stay there for a few moments
Then go and heed their call

Their comrades will soon be joining
The ones who went before
There are many names a missing
Never put upon the wall
Stay there for a few moments
Then go and heed their call

The monuments our history faded
The ones who went before
Too many sons and daughters fall
Family or stranger, warriors all
Stay there for a few moments
Then go and heed their call

Go and tell the children about
The ones who went before
Dont feed the wall my darlings
No more names upon a wall
Stay there for a few moments
Saying yes we heed your call

Subject: RE: Songs about Vietnam War
From: Amos
Date: 01 Feb 00 - 02:30 PM

Davie, lad

The only time I usually tear up like this is when I'm standing dog on the bridgewing. Damn! That was vurry nice, sailor.

A

Subject: RE: Songs about Vietnam War
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 01 Feb 00 - 04:40 PM

Thank you Amos, from one as talented as you it is praise indeed. I could'nt post anything else this morning. Just had to do that, in case they ever do show this to kids. I too am standing next to you on the bridge wing, windward side. Got a sponge handy mate? I can see bugger all at the moment. Three walls in three countries, I've stood there, and know about the others. Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: Songs about Vietnam War
From: folk1234
Date: 01 Feb 00 - 05:30 PM

I chose not to enter this thread a year ago, but I read it end to end today. Truly great perspectives from many very kind and sensitive mudcatters. Thank you GUEST for revising this gem.
My own perspective on Viet Nam has changed over the years; has become more mellow, like old wine, as I myself have.
Back in the 60's I thought ill of those who refused to serve. I thought most to be down-right cowards. I believed there were a few true pacifists, but far too many were simply afraid of death or injury. Believe me, all of us on the plane to Viet Nam were about as close to pacifism as one could be - having serious reservation about what we were about to get ourselves into. Nevertheless, we came, we served, and most of us left.
As a young enlisted Marine in the early-60's, I was sent to a beautiful college campus in Lawrence, Kansas to complete my degree. I had a great time, plenty of money, fine wholesome young ladies, football, wrestling, and even some great professors from whom I learned to appreciate the boundless universe of learning. And all the while, some of my best friends were "hippies". It was they who threw the best parties. Protest back then was mostly about 'free love' and freedom from the 'norm', what ever that was. Anti-war protests were springing up in those crazy campuses on the east and west coasts, but not in Kansas. (Long after I was gone the heartland was as violent as were the lowlands.) And there were drugs, beginning with morning glory seed tea, and later ending, for some permanently, with LSD. Honest, I never did drugs. I was too afraid of the USMC finding out.
Anyway Graduation, Quantico, and RVN quickly followed. I can't describe it any better than those above have, but even if you took the 'enemy' away, the life of an infantryman (grunt) was so miserable that it is difficult for me to believe I had ever experienced it. The bugs, the cold (yes cold!), the heat, the cuts, bruises, sprains, blisters - always tired, mostly boored, and a few moments of absolute pee-in-the-pants terror made for real life surrealism. Friendly and enemy casualties were shocking, but writing the letters (actually the Battalion Adjutant drafted the rough letters and I added a 'personal' touch) to loved ones was by far the most difficult task. After nine months I was wounded for the 3rd time and medevaced to the US Naval Hospital, Guam for recovery before returning to the States for reassignment (and also to get married). I was back in RVN in 1972 as a Battalion advisor the to VN Marine Corps. Much more danger, unbelievable human carnage, but not a scratch to me body? How strange The Winds of War! Returned to the 'world', a loving wife, and 2 infant daughters on Christmas Eve of 1972, never again to face the challenges of combat.
As the years passed, I began to meet, often through folk music, some whom I had previously despised for their anti-war activities. I found them to be both of strong conviction and of ever-lasting question. The question of course was, "Why?". "Why as a civilized people?" "Why as a Nation?" "Why as an individual?". To this day, neither I nor my new friends can answer these questions. We only can hope that our children will not have to make these terrible decisions. As for songs about Viet Nam, I don't much care for them.

Subject: RE: Songs about Vietnam War
From: Amos
Date: 01 Feb 00 - 05:44 PM

Thank you folk; both for what you write, and for what you did.

I want Spaw to make a life-topping accomplishment out of capturing the small burning honest pieces that make up this thread, and composing them into a piece that will impart it, unforgettably, to an audience, somehow. I sense he can do it. I know (I think) he would love to do it. I would hope that those who wrote here would be proud to let and help him do it, so that a better understanding of what it was, what it meant, could occur.

On the other hand, maybe it can't be done across the distance between strangers. If anyone could do it, I think 'spaw could.

A

Subject: RE: Songs about Vietnam War
From: Sorcha
Date: 01 Feb 00 - 06:47 PM

Even tho I haven't been here long, I agree. My permission is granted.(for my own post, of course--)Please, 'spaw?

Subject: Lyr Add: THE LITTLE FAMILY^^
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 00 - 08:33 PM

The Little Family

A story in the papers,
just a paragraph or two
but it kept on running through my mind,
so I pass it on to you.

A family going to market,
in a little cart they ride,
the father and the mother,
two little children by their side.

And they're off to sell the food they've grown,
and when the day is done
maybe spend a little money,
maybe have a little fun.

And they're talking and they're singing,
planning what they'll do tonight,
and the mother's telling a story,
to keep the little children quiet.

And they're going along so steady -
when there's shooting all round,
and it lays that little family
all dead upon the ground.

And the shooting's quickly over,
just as soon as it's begun.
And the soldiers rise from the bushes
"Oh God, what have we done."

A story in the papers,
just a paragraph or two
but it kept on running through my mind,
is there's nothing I can do?

I wrote this a few years after seeing the paragraph about an incident in Vietnam. It could have been in so many other wars, before and since. The number of civilians killed on both sides was far greater than the number of soldiers. Like in most modern wars. A wall with all their name on would have to stretch round the world.

The tune I settled on is, more or less, "Pretty Boy Floyd".

Subject: RE: Songs about Vietnam War
From: BarbaraLynn
Date: 01 Feb 00 - 10:49 PM

That's an interesting "take" on what the VC might have thought . And certainly is well written, I wish I knew the tune so I could better put it together, but I don't think I know it, will have to check the files.

In a more serious vein, and pursuant to the thread, since I had a loved one (my fiance) over there with the Marines in '67-'68, different songs to me symbolize the Vietnam War. Songs like "Soldier Boy" (don't recall who did it), and "Unchained Melody" (Righteous Bros.). "Cruel War" (PP&M) was one I played again and again on my guitar, although it was hard to get through it without tears.

At the time, Our Song, his and mine, was "Never My Love" (The Association), which I had on a 45 rpm record (remember those?). Played that practically non-stop in my college dorm room while writing letters. Well...my fiance did not come back alive. So, after a while, I put that record away.

A couple of years later, I took all my 45's, which were boxed in some sort of order, and I turned the whole stack over and put them on the turn-table, figuring to listen to all those "flip sides" that never made it big, stuff I'd never heard. I was working away on something, and this song came on that just froze me -- mind and body. It was a stirring, but mournful, song about the death of a soldier...and when I went to see WHAT it was on the back of...it was on the back of Our Song. The title of it is "Requiem for The Masses" (The Association) and it is most definitely about the Vietnam War. And it was there all along, like a hidden sign or something....

BarbaraLynn

Subject: RE: Songs about Vietnam War
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Feb 00 - 11:05 PM

Good Lord, this thread had an interesting day.........

To all of you who posted, I am grateful. Thirty years and I sit here with the powerful memories of that time and the time that followed replaying like a movie I just saw......Wasn't thirty years was it? Seems like yesterday. folk1234, well spoken and the power comes from the truth you speak. Maybe that's what this thread has in it more than anything else...truth.

Amos & Sorcha....I've been thinking about it for almost a year. Maybe there will be a time that's right for me to try to tie all this up. I hope so.

Pat

Subject: RE: Songs about Vietnam War
From: Amos
Date: 01 Feb 00 - 11:34 PM

Well, 'Spaw, no one can write in any time not his own, but please save all this thread backed up or printed, somewhere you can get it out. So if you do find the moment when the crystallizing vision of how to do it comes tyo you, you'll have it if needed. Thanks for thinking about it.

A

Subject: RE: Songs about Vietnam War
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Feb 00 - 01:53 AM

Two things.

First, you may use anything I have written here.

Second, I would like you to sit quietly in a corner and reflect on these two words and let them stir up all the deepest meanings within that they can convey. The words are "Thank You".

Mick

Subject: Lyr Add: WASHAWAY BEACH^^
From: Mary G
Date: 02 Feb 00 - 03:16 AM

I have a lot of songs about the war...I was an Army Officer, stateside...adjutant with the transportation corps...

Ancient Mariner..your words are true...we just found out today we lost another one...101st...

Barbara L. and any other women..I run an email list for women who were affected by the war...as veterans, widows, fiances etc...called Sanctuary after the ship..http://wwwl.angelfire.com/wv/sanctuary

to whoever wrote those hateful words about the green berets...for shame...

here is the song called WASHAWAY BEACH..for a nurse...

I live in a land they call washaway beach
where the cranberries grow and the sandpipers screech
the land keeps washing away from my reach
oh wash me away in the morning

chorus

for time and the tide have taken a toll
on the beach and the jetty the shore and shoal
the weary old waves they just rock and they roll
and wash me away in the morning

if you wash away sand you can wash away grief
and cleanse me of memories past all belief
at very long last I can get some relief
oh wash me away in the morning

wash every enemy wash every friend
give us the peace where the peace has no end
what war tore assunder let nature now mend
oh wash me away in the morning

the sea washed away and the sea can rebuild
and wash all the places where blood has been spilled
my heart has been broken my heart will be filled
oh wash me away in the morning...

mg

Subject: RE: Songs about Vietnam War
From: GUEST,Chris/Darwin
Date: 02 Feb 00 - 06:54 AM

Like a lot of other latecomers to this thread, I have been blown away. In Australia we went into a draft ballot from 1965. My birthday did not come out of the hat, so I went on to a "normal" life. Because my father and father-in-law were both WW2 vets, I thought it was my duty at the time to serve in Vietnam if I was called up. That later changed, but at 20 you are not very politically aware.

By the time Australia pulled out in 1973, the tide of public opinion was firmly against our involvement in Vietnam. Australia has had a long history of opposition to conscription; so many lies were told by our leaders at the time, that most Australians came to believe that it was all wrong.

The result of that was almost total rejection of returning serviceman, just as Mick so eloquently describes. I know many vets from my age group, and universally they did not talk about Vietnam or their part in it - they wouldn't even acknowledge involvement unless prompted. I can only imagine what they must have gone through on their return to Australia. Some didn't make it, like a bloke in Tamworth I knew whose body was destroyed by a mine, and who lived a blind and painful (but cheerful and uncomplaining)existence for 15 years before dying of complications.

For Australian vets, it was the song "I was only 19" that turned the tide of public opinion. The writer, John Schuman of the band "Redgum", was clearly against the war. However, the story of Frankie stepping on a mine on the day mankind stood on the moon touched him deeply.

Australians finally came to terms with the fact that the servicemen were not monsters at all, but ordinary men who answered their country's call, even if it is now clear that the call was based on lies.

Australian vets still do not talk about the war, but are now less defensive and much prouder than before the song came out. Monuments, marches, reunions are now possible. Although these can never wipe away the scars, for many the change has meant being part of the community again.

The power of song never ceases to amaze me. Certainly in this case one song changed a nation's attitude.

Thanks for the inspiration Mick and others, I have never been moved more reading anything in my whole life.

Regards Chris

Subject: RE: Songs about Vietnam War
From: BarbaraLynn
Date: 02 Feb 00 - 08:43 AM

mg, that was Beautiful. I think I've got to get to an ocean pretty soon, after that....

I'd like to just say that, along with others, I have been deeply touched by virtually all the posts in this thread. There have been a number of diverse viewpoints and experiences shared, and they merit thoughtful attention and respect. It's a rare thing when a group of people who mostly don't know one another on a face-to-face basis, can open up like this on such a sensitive topic, and do so with Heart and without rancor. There are legacies from the Vietnam War that are awful to contemplate, but this thread shows that there are also legacies that in every way Honor the most fundamental thing that any war will teach: that we as human beings need to care about one another.

'Spaw, go to it!

BarbaraLynn

Subject: RE: Songs about Vietnam War
From: Amos
Date: 02 Feb 00 - 09:22 AM

MaryG, what a sweet and fine song.

Whose is it? Did you write it?

I love it.

A

Subject: RE: Songs about Vietnam War
From: lamarca
Date: 02 Feb 00 - 01:04 PM

Warning: thread creep....

Spaw, yesterday you wrote:
Last, I let a friend read it who is a high school government teacher and he asked he could have a copy. I said no. This was a very personal thread and I would want permission from everyone on it before I gave it to anyone...

This is the kind of attitude about the Mudcat discussion group that NEEDS to be countered. THIS IS NOT A PRIVATE FORUM!!! All of these very personal revelations are up here and available for everyone in the whole world to see. If you are uncomfortable about having them passed around to people you don't know, you should not be posting them!

'Spaw, this isn't meant as an attack on you personally, but I wish more people would begin to understand that once they've posted something here on the 'Cat, it is open to ANYONE who clicks on that thread.

We regular posters have developed a community of people who like to reach out and correspond with each other about things that are important in our lives. This thread has been an important example of this. But please, always realize that our "audience" isn't limited to the friends we have made here.

Sorry for the digression, but this has pushed my buttons about privacy and the Web big time...

Mary

Subject: RE: Songs about Vietnam War
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 00 - 01:37 PM

"That's an interesting "take" on what the VC might have thought." I'm not sure whether I see the soldiers in the bushes as VC or Americans, and whether it makes too much difference. Any war both sides end up killing innocent civilians, and most of the people who do the killing feel pretty bad about it, and that's what the song is about.

PRETTY BOY FLOYD is in the DT, with a tune attached.

Subject: RE: Songs about Vietnam War
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Feb 00 - 02:05 PM

I don't know how I managed to miss this thread when it was first posted. I turned 18 in 1965............tho not a Vietnam song per se, to this day I cannot sing Eric Bogle's "No Man's Land" all the way thru nor yet listen to it with dry eyes- certainly this also was a 'whole generation who were butchered and damned'.

For the last sevaral days things have come to mind that I hadn't thought of in thirty years... but should have.

To each & every one of you, Thanks.

Greg

Subject: RE: Songs about Vietnam War
From: Marki
Date: 02 Feb 00 - 02:18 PM

Well, unfortunately I'm too young to have been around at the time of the Vietnam War and I don't even know a whole of history about it. Never-the-less I do know a couple of good songs about it (which is what this thread started out as, right?)

One is called "A Veteren's Song" by the Scottish rock group Nazareth. Sorry I don't know the words off hand, but it's quite touching & depressing.

Two is the song "The Wall". I believe other's here have mentioned it (written by Tim Murphy). I have a fabulous version of it sung by John McDermott (on his CD "If ye break Faith").

Another song about war but not specifically the Vietnam War is "After the War". No not the one that was mentioned earlier here. It's one by Paul Gross (Canadian actor/singer/songwriter) and it's on his cd "Two Houses". It's basically any soldiers song. I cried the first couple times I heard it. Again, sorry I don't know the words off hand.

I appreciated reading everybody elses rants & raves. Quite fascinating, especially for someone like me who as a young Canadian, doesn't know too much about the Vietnam War. Thanks. It's been a good read.

Subject: RE: Songs about Vietnam War
From: folk1234
Date: 02 Feb 00 - 02:33 PM

Of course, 'Spaw, or anyone else, my words are freely given to the public domain. That's where they should be.

Subject: RE: Songs about Vietnam War
From: BarbaraLynn
Date: 02 Feb 00 - 03:39 PM

""That's an interesting "take" on what the VC might have thought." I'm not sure whether I see the soldiers in the bushes as VC or Americans, and whether it makes too much difference. Any war both sides end up killing innocent civilians, and most of the people who do the killing feel pretty bad about it, and that's what the song is about."

Yep, I got that about how the soldiers in the bushes could be VC or Americans -- it's a really nice turn of phrasing, there. My thought I guess was that in the broader context of this thread, some might take it at first glance to refer to Americans, but when I read it, I thought it one way first and then the other way and so commented. And you are so right that no matter who does the killing, pays an emotional price for it. There is a book entitled _On Killing_, by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman that explores the psychology.

BarbaraLynn

Subject: RE: Songs about Vietnam War
From: JVZ
Date: 02 Feb 00 - 06:00 PM

Arlo Guthrie wrote a song a little while back. I think it's called "When a Soldier Makes It Home" The lyrics are on his sight. I think you'll find it a good read and/or a good listen. On the CD that I have of it, he introduces it by saying that over the years he's met two kind's of people, those who care and those who don't; and you'll find both kinds on either side of any issue. He went on to say that you can find, at times, a lot more in common with some folks who disagree with you passionately than you might with some others who agree with you, but with little zest or ferver. Sorry, Arlo, for paraphrasing so poorly.

John