BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 02:25 AM

Does Lebanon get to request troops that do not have diplomatic relations with them? I agree with Ron, the more international troops under the authority of the U.N., the better. It is the best way to disarm Hezbollah. Why would they sabbotage this?

I still can't find where Malaysia and Indonesia have denied Israel's right to exist. Can you please provide a source?

btw - Harper may think that it was a "measured response" by Israel but thats not what the majority of Canadians think. Canada should be there to help re-build and provide medical assistance.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 11:40 PM

Many countries who have had experience with peace-keeping are waiting to see what the ROE are. I doubt Canada will be involved, with Harper having stated the country's support for Israel--thus making us unacceptable to Lebanon, but ANY country would be very foolish to put troops in without clearly defined rules. And the rules haven't been clearly defined at this time. Let's hope this isn't another 'fight about the shape of the table' thing such as happened with the Vietnam War peace process.

The World War III scenario has been and is my greatest fear to do with this particular war (as I said very early on in another thread). I agree with Ron in this instance. But notice that France, which has a history of getting involved with these types of 'actions' has yet to offer beyond 250 troops. Usually, countries that do not fight all that many wars (and France doesn't, other than some stuff in Africa with the Foreign Legion) are always looking for 'cheap' ways to train NCOs. So, maybe the cesae-fire needs to be delineated a bit more clearly.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 11:24 PM

I don't object to any country trying to call the shots--it stands to reason that any state would support its own self-interest.

But I submit that this attitude--refusing Indonesian, Malaysian troops etc.--is NOT in Israel's best interest. There will be troops from states which definitely have recognized Israel. They can monitor Indonesians etc.

Beggars can't be choosers--and at this point Israel is a beggar.

What Israel should want is a HUGE and powerful multinational force keeping the peace. The more troops between Hezbollah and Israel, the better for Israel--especially since the outbreak of war again will kill some of these troops. Israel claims it will not start such a war--so if Hezbollah does, all the world's outrage will be directed at Hezbollah. A far cry from the current situation.

What Israel and any of its supporters should want is this multinational force--from any country--doing all the fighting for Israel

Unless of course Israel, by raising obstacles, is actually trying to sabotage the process of setting up the multinational force on the border. If so, this verges on suicide. Israel may think that if the war resumes it can "finish the job"--eradicate Hezbollah. But that will never happen--much more likely would be a wider war---hurtling toward World War III.

I think Israel is going to see this. But maybe not.

The only people who would welcome it would be the idiot US " religious" zealots who can't wait for Armageddon.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 07:24 PM

GUEST 21 Aug 06 - 03:04 PM

"What's the point in bothering with that hatemonger?"

Since you are an obvious hatemonger, why should anybody bother with you either?

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 03:27 PM

Israeli envoy to UN says that to expect nations like Malaysia and Indonesia - who do not recognize Israel's right to exist - to guard Israel's safety 'is a bit naïve'



The Israeli envoy to the UN, Danny Gillerman, said that it would be "difficult if not inconceivable" to accept nations who do not recognize Israel's right to exist and who have no diplomatic relations with Israel as part of a UN force in southern Lebanon .



Gillerman made the statement in an interview with BBC Online, after Malaysia and Indonesia – who do not recognize Israel - have both said they were willing to send troops to the region.



He said Israel would be "very happy" to accept troops from Muslim countries they have friendly relations with.




"But to expect countries who don't even recognize Israel to guard Israel's safety I think would be a bit naive," Gillerman said.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 03:11 PM

Guest - You are a coward and hide behind war-mongers.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 03:04 PM

Dianavan,

Try getting your news from any legit source other than antisemites-R-us.com.

Beardedbruce,

What's the point in bothering with that hatemonger?

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 03:01 PM

Source please.

I understand that the countries who do not have diplomatic ties with Israel are the countries Israel does not want in the U.N forces. This, however, is not their decision to make.

But where is the documentation stating that they do no recognize Israel's right to exist?

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 07:57 AM

dianavan,

"Israel does not want troops from Bangladesh or Malaysia. In other words, they don't want Muslims."

Actually, they have no problems with ANY country that has recognized Israel's right to exist, as per the UN.

ANY country that DOES NOT recognize a country accredited to the UN is in violation of UN rules, and has no business being part of ANY UN force. They do NOT need to have diplomatic relations, but they MUWST recognize it's right to exist.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 06:20 AM

"My Way or Da Highway!"

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 03:47 AM

Israel does not want troops from Bangladesh or Malaysia. In other words, they don't want Muslims.

Once again, Israel is calling the shots.

Odd how Israel and the U.S. both seem to be unable to compromise. Odd how they think they get to decide. Its not their choice but, for the sake of peace, the whole world has to placate Israel and play according to their rules. Compromise seems to mean do it my way or else.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 12:48 AM

That would be me.

I don't blame the Israelis. For example, would you want Iran to supply troops for the south of Lebanon, or Syria? Probably not. The countries that do not recognize Israel have for the most part said that they disagree with Israel's right to exist. Would you want those people stationing troops on YOUR border?

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 06:48 AM

Israel is refusing to let countries with which it does not have diplomatic relations participate in the multinational force to police the Lebanese border?

Source, please.

If this is true it's totally unacceptable.

I'd like to hear the view of some of the more rabid pro-Israel posters here on this.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Aug 06 - 11:59 PM

from the Toronto Star:

"Let's concentrate for a second on the plight of Lebanon now that a fragile ceasefire has taken hold:

Thousands of civilian casualties. Nearly a quarter of the population forced from their homes. An offshore oil spill that may be worse than the Exxon Valdez. The demolition of roads, bridges, power stations, entire neighbourhoods. Hospitals without medicine. Villages lacking food. Isn't that the heart of this terrible story?

Maybe you disagree with me, and with most Quebecers. Maybe you insist that Israel's determination to conquer Hezbollah outweighs the enormous suffering inflicted on the people of Lebanon.

Fine. But if so, please don't call us anti-Semitic."

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 09:25 PM

If you hadn't noticed, at least someof our recent comments were both from the same side of the choir stalls...

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 09:19 PM

After you, Robin . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 09:18 PM

Peace,

Have a cup of tea, a Bex, and a good lie down...

Peace, Man...

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 09:02 PM

When's the last time a leader got it in war? It's ALWAYS someone else's kids. Nasrallah did his studying in Iran (Qom). Any wonder the pig fu#ker wages war against the world?

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 08:58 PM

"people like myself will have to live with it, whether we want to or not,"

... and the Bushites, etc, will be safe in the nuclear proof bunkers that we, the taxpayers have paid for... safe to emerge and keep the selfish madness going....

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 08:44 PM

Raedwulf: "Israel would cheerfully be running gas chambers & concentration camps if they thought they could get away with it. So would the Arabs, of every stripe. Look at what happened in the former Yugoslavia. They're still finding the mass graves, & that was in the "Old World", Europe!"

Exactly what I have been saying here and elsewhere. It's just human nature, not Jews or Arabs or Europeans or whatever. The Geneva Conventions? In any fight to the death, there is just one rule in war: to win. If you win, you don't have to worry about the Geneva Conventions. If you lose, you won't be able to complain anyway. If the Nazis had won WW2 we would hear all about how Germany saved civilisation and ended the corrupt regimes of the US and Britain - if any of us were still alive, of course! Thankfully they didn't, but that still means we have to listen to loads of crap about how Britian and America saved the world (and in Russia people got to hear how it was Dear Comrade Stalin - though he killed more of his own people in purges almost than the Nazis did). I still laugh (darkly) at the irony of reading in history books how Nazis and Soviets each in turn 'liberated' countries from each other. From the frying pan to the fire. Sure, Britain and the US were not as totalitarian as either of the other two states, but there has been a growing trend towards totalitarianism in recent years. The so-called war on terror has been hijacked by George Blair / Tony Bush to roll back hard-won civil liberties, spy on ordinary people and crush political dissent. This effort goes way beyond the nonsense that the secret services get up to. It is being done above all by limiting public discourse: certain topics are considered of limits, or must be talked about within a certain framework. Any dissent from this (i.e open minded thought) leads to accusations of supporting terrorists, being racist or anti-semitic. Back in the middle ages daring to question the Bible could bring the inquisition to your door - you were simply not allowed to even question certain ideas or viewpoints. And that is the first sign of an ailing, sick democracy - the control of public opinion and thought. Sure, you might say, aren't we talking about it here? Yes, but if you look back over the thread you'll see how when comparisons are made between the actions of the Israeli State (not even about Jewish people, note) and Nazis, immediately there are shrill cries of 'anti-semite!' and 'racist!'. I can of course understand how someone Jewish would feel offended by the reference on grounds of emotion, history and psyche. Irish people might feel a bit offended by being called Black and Tan, for example. But if I am NOT allowed to say something, then I want to say it simply to make the point that the days when the church or stalinist state or whatever, are supposed to be over, and if we pride ourselves so much on our democracy that we think it's worth exporting, then we should have freedom to be devil's advocate and at least discuss the idea. Moreover, in a world where you are not allowed to make comparisons betwen Nazis and Jews, comparison between Nazis and un-favoured groups, such as Islamic fundamentalists are quite permitted. I have no problem with the latter connections being made if they illustrate an idea, but I disagree that one should not have the same freedom to make the former connection as well, if one chooses. It's about as simplistic as saying that since black people have historically been the ones discriminated against by whites, therefore balck people CANNOT be racist, and it is offensive to call a black person 'racist' but not to call a white person 'racist'. Not only is this totally a idiotic solipism, but it is dangerously stupid as it denies human nature and means the dialogue is limited to nonsense and half of the picture. My guess is that the constant fighting with ethnically different neighbours has probably polarised at least some Arabs and Jews to racist viewpoints. For instances of anti-Arab racism amongst Jews, you could check out this link:
Anti-Arab graffiti in Jewish settlements

The point has been made - to suggest that only one side of a conflict is capable of racism or even Nazi-esque behaviour, as is being suggested here and by G.Bush and elements of the right-wing media (the irony of right wingers throwing the term 'fascist' around so freely is not lost on me!) by repeated use of the terms 'fascist' and 'Nazi' in relation to Muslims is not only absurd, it prevents any real understanding of the conflict and thus, a resolution. I do disagree however, with the association of the words Zionists and Nazis if the intention is merely to upset and insult Zionists. If you start out by insulting people (Arabs, Jews, blacks, whoever) and pretty soon you end up hating them and then you want to kill them and the devil's work is complete. (I am not thinking of anyone on this thread, I'm just making the point)

As Raedwulf said, the mindset is everywhere: the Nazis had it, Islamic fundamentalists have it, Zionists have it - or they can all tend towards it at any rate. The need to caricature and demonise your enemied so it becomes all right to kill them, the need to crush all voice of dissent, so insecure is the totalitarianism even when it exercises power etc.,

Worst of all, G.Bush, Rice and Cheney have it in buckets, as do their more right-wing supporters. They have convinced themselves that it is time to silence the whiny, bleeding heart liberals before they turn the whole world 'soft'. Bush etc., seem to genuinely believe they are men of action, hard men taking a soft world in hand. They see the wolrd in simplistic black and white terms where they are the 'goodies', crusaders, democrats and their opponents are all 'fanatics' fascists and lunatics / terrorists. What they do not appreciate is that no dispute was ever solved permanently through violence (it always keeps cropping up again thanks to the resentment it brings, plus violence teaches others how we expect to be interacted with ourselves). Worse, they accuse their opponents of being teh ones with a simplistic view of the world ('the speck in your brother's eye and the beam in your own').

As I've said before, the only military solution to so-called 'terrorism' is some form of genocide. If Bush etc., think that's a reasonable way to deal with terrorism, they have cut away from themselves any moral ground they might have had to stand on. I've already suggested there is a far better way to deal with terrorism - a fair and just world that removes inequalities and isolates the truly wantonly violent (who are few and far between).

One problem many people like myself have with Western foriegn policy is that it is stirring up massive resentment in the Arab world. Let's face it here - while Muslims might have managed to stage a few terror attacks in the west, it is our troops who are in their countries. Our troops were in their countries long before all the recent wave of terror attcaks started, and even before that, our governements were conspiring behind the scenes to manipulate the middle eastern countries to the detriment of their populations. So it's easy to understand how Muslims might feel it is we who are trying to destroy their way of life, and not the other way round. When they try and hit back - and they are not strong enough to attack the west in an all-out conventional war (especially as they lag behind in gthe nuclear race), our governments use it as an excuse to clamp down on our freedom. So, if these so-called Islamic extremists were intending to destroy our democracies, they have our governments on-side helping them out already. Bush etc., won't seem to be satisfied until they've started WW3. The only problem is, people like myself will have to live with it, whether we want to or not, it's a small world.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 07:42 PM

And now Israel is refusing to allow troops from Muslim countries with which it does not have diplomatic relations (Malaysia & Indonesia) to participate - even though they will be stationed only in Lebanon!

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 02:10 PM

Well said, Raedwulf.

Its difficult for the children of the Middle East (in Canada) to understand the conflict in their homeland because, here, they get along just fine. They do not see this as a Jewish/Arab conflict. They see it as a struggle for political power that has nothing to do with the everyday lives of the people.

War mongers do not care about human misery. They are safely hiding in their gated communities surrounded by home security and watch dogs. They have absolutely no idea how to interract positively with their neighbors or with each other. The only game they know is power and wealth.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Raedwulf
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 01:55 PM

"Little Hawk--you and all of you who insist on comparing Israel to Nazi Germany and the Final Solution thereby undercut any credibility the rest of your argument might have. It is odious and trivializes Nazism. Please show me the trains going to the gas chambers and concentration camps; show me the crescents on the garments of muslims or tattoos on their arms. Show me gangs of Jews rampaging through the streets of Tel Aviv destroying Arab homes and businesses, and just beating them up for the fun of it. Get real!"

I'm not trying to compare Israel to anywhere. It does strike me, though, that if the cameras & the media aren't there to photograph & record & report, you don't actually know what's happening, do you?

Does that sound like Nazi Germany to you? Rwanda? And various other places throughout history. I reckon if this were another, older, less well reported age, there would be concentration camps & gas chambers out there. Some of them would be run by Jews, some of them by Arabs. It's nothing to do with Jews & Arabs, any more than the notion of wholesale slaughter & genocide was a Nazi invention. The Nazis just mechanized the process to a much greater degree than anyone who had gone before.

This is basic human nature. Not yours, not mine, but OURS. It's been part of our psyche since before we invented "civilization" (hahahahahaha... :( ).

Israel would cheerfully be running gas chambers & concentration camps if they thought they could get away with it. So would the Arabs, of every stripe. Look at what happened in the former Yugoslavia. They're still finding the mass graves, & that was in the "Old World", Europe!

They can't, so in the meanwhile both sides do what they can. If Israel hadn't invaded Lebanon over a couple of abducted soldiers, the vast majority of a couple of thousand dead wouldn't be dead, never mind all the displacement, destruction & attendant human misery.

You know what the people (Jewish, Arab, whoever) want? They want to be left alone to live their lives in peace.

It's the fanatics who keep killing everyone.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 07:38 AM

Hey, I know where we will be safe - they'll never bomb the family grave yard at the end of the street...


Oooops..

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 07:35 AM

"They target homes where intelligence sources tell them there are Hezbollah/Hamas folks. One BIG difference there, Robin. Then the Israelis make courtesy calls telling the occupants to leave."

Ok, I'll try to understand this ...

"target homes where intelligence sources tell them there are Hezbollah/Hamas folks"

with you there... provided that the intelligence is accurate - and we have seen just how inaccurate even the US Intelligence machine is, what with bombing weddings and shooting up civilians driving tractors and all that...
Yes, the Israelis have said that they wish to kill these nasty guys...

"Then the Israelis make courtesy calls telling the occupants to leave"

Hello Robin, we're coming to blow the shit out of your house!

F***! Everybody out!

HUH! so the nasty guys can then just run away before the bombs come? So when they run away, they still destroy the houses? Like destroying the houses of the families of the suicide nutters in Gaza?




Hmmmm... Since they built the Sydney Harbour Tunnel there's this old rusty bridge for sale... cheap if you give me an answer real quick...

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 01:55 AM

Yes, very interesting.

Food for thought.

Here's another twist:

http://www.jewsforajustpeace.com/pages/afn01.html

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: number 6
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 12:10 AM

Now this is an interesting viewpoint on Lebanon ...

Time for tea

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 12:07 AM

It is BS that the Israelis target homes of civilians. They target homes where intelligence sources tell them there are Hezbollah/Hamas folks. One BIG difference there, Robin. Then the Israelis make courtesy calls telling the occupants to leave. I suppose they can't all the time, but they have and do when they are able to. We have walked this path before. All Hezbollah has to do is what the Lebanese government wants them to do. Simple, really.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 10:36 PM

Neither do 'militarist thugs' - 'honorable war' is their only solution....

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: bobad
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 10:29 PM

"insists on attacking the civilian homes of its opponents"

You just don't give up, do you?

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 10:26 PM

"If the UN and Lebanese don't do it, the Israelis will."

They can TRY...

Not too sure the Israeli populace will be so eager to be fooled to believe that it will be easy next time - their elite 'invincible' military machine got a bloody nose this time, against 'those primitive undisciplined poorly equipped untrained stupid gooks'... say, where have I heard that before... and just how many times before...

War is a process of attrition, economic, resources, morale, political, population, goodwill of 'friends', etc... and if a country insists that all its citizens do military service, and then insists on attacking the civilian homes of its opponents, then wailing about their own civilian's homes being targeted seems a little 'precious' to me...

There are ALWAYS other options.... other than 'War Without End'...

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 10:21 PM

True. But that reminds me of a remark by George Burns. Burns was about 80 at the time and an interviewer said, "How many martinis do you drink per day?" Burns said, "Five or six." The interviewer then asked, "And how many cigars do you have each day?" Burns said "About five or six." The interviewer then inquired, "What does your doctor say about that?" Burns replied, "I don't know. He's dead."

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 10:14 PM

"Hezbollah has GOT TO GO."

Yeah, well that's what most people eventually agreed about Hitler, but at first, and for a good many years, there were lots of influential people around the world who greatly admired the way he 'encouraged business, building of services like roads, reduced unemployment, and gave the people a great sense of pride in their country'....

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 10:04 PM

Six months from now it WILL be the case. The Lebanese are frightened of them. Hell, the gave a good account of themselves against the Israelis, and IMO, troop for troop they are as good as any army out there. BUT, make no mistake about it Robin, Hezbollah has GOT TO GO. If the UN and Lebanese don't do it, the Israelis will. There is no third option.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 09:58 PM

"Lebanon will be happy when they are gone, too."

Well, that seemed to be the case before the recent Israeli "Shock and Awe" tactic of flattening large chunks of the country all over, including Maronite Christian Residential Areas, in an attempt to intimidate the populace of Southern Lebanon.

Previous attempts to terrify civilian populations by massive Air Power have mostly failed if not followed up by 'Boots on the Ground' as the British, then the Germans themselves were among the first to demonstrate.

It now seems that large sections of the population of Southern Lebanon (where these nasty militarist thugs hang out!) have been deluded into believing that if it were not for these 'brave resistance fighters', Israel would have seized all of Lebanon, like other nearby areas 'liberated' by Israel in previous military conflicts.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 09:44 PM

The Lebanese government is constituted by Lebanese. Their deal was to get Hezbollah away from the border area and disarm them. They agreed to that two years ago. They started a war.

The Israelis live in Israel, and were it not for repeated attacks by arseholes like Hamas and Hezbollah, they'd be happy to remain in Israel.

Hezbollah are NOT the Lebanese government, despite holding some seats. Lebanon will be happy when they are gone, too. Hell, the government is afraid to send troops into the south part of their country BECAUSE of Hezbollah. They want to wait for a stronger UN force to 'pair off' with. In short, screw Hezbollah. They are trash, they started a war that has led to the deaths of over 1000 people, and the bastards should be found and dealt with.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 09:29 PM

"When will Hezbollah get out?"

Don't most of them LIVE there?

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 05:38 PM

Easy on Freda, Hammy. She reads no newspapers, watches no TV, listens to no radio and gets all her news from Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: C. Ham
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 05:33 PM

Why is the Israeli army occupying Lebanon? when will they get out?

Gee Freda, why don't you try turning on the news. It's been widely reported that Israel will pull their troops out of Lebanon when the Lebanese and UN forces arrive to take up their positions.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: bobad
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 05:31 PM

"the rest of the world sees Lebanon as the victim of Israel's invasion and obliteration."

Majority back Harper's support of Israel, poll shows

Vito Pilieci, The Ottawa Citizen
Published: Monday, August 14, 2006

An overwhelming number of Canadians support Prime Minister Stephen Harper's assertion that Israel's attacks on Lebanon are justified because Israel has a right to self defence and say Iran and Syria are wrong to have armed Hezbollah, according to a new poll to be released today.

The poll, which was conducted by public opinion researcher COMPAS Inc., will appear today in the news magazine Western Standard. The poll states that 82 per cent of Canadians asked believe that Israel has a right to self defence.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 05:20 PM

When will Hezbollah get out? Answer that and you'll have the answer to when the Israelis will leave. Simple really.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: freda underhill
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 05:19 PM

Israelis still have a victim mentality. As LH said, for a victim, there can only be one victim. They are perpetrators, but while they still see themselves as victims, the rest of the world sees Lebanon as the victim of Israel's invasion and obliteration. In Lebanon, 9/11 has been happening every day for weeks.

Why is the Israeli army occupying Lebanon? when will they get out?

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 04:45 PM

The attempt to limit civilian casualties has resulted in Israeli (IDF) deaths. The racist element here does not see that had Israel pulled out all the stops, Lebanese deaths would have numbered in the tens of thousands by now. However, some people will accept any excuse to denigrate Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: bobad
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 04:25 PM

From the Ottawa Citizen

For Israel, the war was equally inevitable. No freely-elected government can stand and watch its citizens attacked and terrorized. For years Hezbollah had been dropping Katyushas into Israel's northern farms, without response. Since the year 2000, Israel had depended upon a final border with Lebanon, agreed by all parties through the U.N., in the hope of containing the problem. Finally Hezbollah performed a provocation larger and cockier than Israel could ignore. The capture of two IDF soldiers, infinitely more than the killing of six, was calculated to force a response. Israelis are rightly horrified at the thought of their own sons and daughters falling captive to such animals. Mere death they are accustomed to.

Those who have argued that Israel's response was "disproportionate" should learn how to feel shame. Hezbollah fired several thousand Katyusha and other rockets, almost all of them aimed at civilian targets -- and fired them from within Lebanese villages, crawling with "human shields". For more than a month, nearly a million Israelis were trapped in air raid shelters, while the devastation accumulated above them.

What would have been a proportionate response? Should Israel have lobbed a few thousand bunker-busters casually into Lebanon's villages and towns? If they had done that, would the Jew-haters and Jew-baiters of the world have shut up?

But now the ceasefire is a catastrophe for Israel to harvest, and Lebanon to share. And it was Israel's fault. Not for trying to destroy Hezbollah, but for failing to do so. A weak and stupid prime minister, Ehud Olmert, spent five crucial weeks changing his mind about what he was doing. The entire ruling establishment exposed itself as crippled by "political correctness", trying to fight against an enemy like Hezbollah, with the chief object of limiting civilian casualties.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 03:48 PM

From the Toronto Star:

"It is with tremendous dismay that I watch how the terrible ignorance of history and of the present reality — an ignorance so clearly fuelled by the media — turns otherwise decent people into warmongers. If all those individuals, particularly my fellow Jews, would inform themselves of what really happened to create the state of Israel and of what is actually happening now, they would be unable to stomach, much less support, the American-led Israeli political and military machine."

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 05:29 PM

The Rwanda genocide was not instigated by Muslims. Sorry about that. The rest were. I'm sorry about that, too.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 08:44 PM

ya think?

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 08:31 PM

yeah, they don't have so much to say about that.

Some people say religion is at the base of it all - the desire to convert people at gunpoint. Muslim, Christian, they have done it in the past. You would love to ask them how many people did Jesus / Muhammed hold a gun to the head of? How many converts did they make with threats of physical violence? Maybe the gross misinterpretation of the religious message or something.

On the other hand, I know that in Ireland they were supposed to have a religious conflict in Northern Ireland, protestant against catholic. On closer inspection it turned out to be about have and have-not. It just so happened that those of one religion had more than the other and used their position to keep the other side down. Often so-called religious conflicts have socio-economic roots.

I wonder why the UN isn't in bigger force in places like Sudan etc.,? The Muslim paramilitaries there are vicious. They have committed appaling atrocities. You never hear much about it in the media either, like it's not important what happens to them.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 08:15 PM

Muslim genocide:

Sudan--hundreds of thousands
Rwanda--hundreds of thousands

General terrorism:

Madrid
London
Israel
Iraq
Mumbai

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 08:08 PM

"The paper said it was time for the Arab voice to be heard and to have an effect in the world, especially against the 'war criminals in the Zionist entity who are committing the massacres of the century.'"

From here.

Gotta love that, huh?: massacres of the century. One would have thought the Arab press might think Lebanon pales in comparison to Muslim-led genocide in Africa; however . . . .