BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 07:53 PM

Peace: perhaps you're right. We'll have to wait and see if anything comes of it. The only thing though is, if you are a doctor, you might see burns or marks on a body, and recognise that it is not a typical wound, and suspect that some kind of chemical agent cuased it, without actually being able to name the chemical or identify its structure. Identifying excatly what kind of chemical you are dealing with can take time in a laboratory and specialised equipment. Even the police, when they seize illegal drugs (even well known ones) have to send them to a lab for analysis to see if they are actually substances controlled by law (to identify exactly the chemical structure) before they can prosecute.
It may be that there is no truth to the allegations, until the tissue samples and substances are analysed we won't have a conclusive answer. I suppose they have had a good bit of time to study these chemical substances (you say July 20th?) so you'd expect them to have identified some of them by now if there were any. But I don't know how long these things take.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 07:44 PM

PS, Nick. That post is not aimed at you. I am aware that you are a peace guy who has no dog in the fight. IMO, Hezbollah started this war but got much more than they bargained for. The Hezbollah death toll is in the hundreds, and it will get higher as the days go on and Israel intensifies its attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 07:37 PM

"Brussels, July 20, IRNA
Belgium-Lebanon
Eight bodies of victims killed by the use of chemical weapons have been found in Lebanon, a group of Belgian doctors of Lebanese-origin told a press conference in Brussels Thursday.

Professor Bachir Cham, a Belgian surgeon of Lebanese origin, addressed the press conference via mobile phone direct from Beirut.

He said all the eight bodies bought to the hospital in Sidon turned black but bore no burn marks and chemical substances were found on their bodies.

Cham said the chemical bombs were dropped by Israeli planes.

Dr. Mohammad Farran, an heart specialist, said they had sent letters to the United Nations and the European Union drawing their attention to the use of chemical weapons by Israel in Lebanon.

Michel Aoun, former Lebanese prime minister and current head of the 'Free Patriotic Movement' also spoke directly from Lebanon by mobile phone."

This was reported on July 20. Problem is, what is the chemical? Name it. This is groundless propaganda. The Israelis are using chemicals. Hell, if I were going to make an accusation of that nature, I would want to walk in to the meeting room and say, "The Israelis are using __________, __________ and _____________. Here's the proof." Instead we get Lebanese doctors making general statements. Whoop dee doo. With that and a buck one can ride the bus. I think it is BS.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 07:30 PM

Peace: yup, that looks like the article all right. Interesting that the Sunday Times and the IAEA lets Dubya off the hook by reminding us that the International Atomic Energy Agency found the documents to have been forged, but only after Bush had used them to back his attack on Iraq. Thus, he couldn't possibly have known they were fake, could he? Just like the famous WMD....

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 07:29 PM

I do not believe anything that comes from the Arab press. It is too tightly controlled by Hezbollah.

And I would not trust results coming from any laboratory in the Arab world. If a few independent labs verified that Israel was using chemical weapons, I would turn on them the way a pissed off rattlesnake bites anything near it. But for now, I think articles of that nature are propaganda from the Arab viewpoint.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 07:24 PM

Someone further back along this thread scoffed that there was any comparison between Zionists and Nazi ideology, saying 'where are the gas chambers etc.,' and also saying Isarelis are fighting a clean fight (if you can call bombs etc., a clean fight - I suppose they are as far as the modern 'rules' of warfare go). Here's an interesting link that says Isarelis have been using some new kind of weapons in Lebanon, who knows, maybe field testing them. These may be chemical or biological agents, or perhaps some kind of direct energy weapons, such as microwave etc., At any rate a number of lebanese caualties are turning up with strange wounds, necrosis of tissue, burns, dead without any sign of injury etc.,

http://archive.gulfnews.com/articles/06/07/28/10055658.html

There was also a very good article on the whole Israel invasion of Lebanon in an Indian paper called 'Frontline' but unfortunately I don't have the link, so anyone interested will just have to 'search engine' it. The gist of the first part of the article was to point out that when the two Israeli soldiers were captured, they were actually inside Lebanon on some kind of mission. Their tank was hit, the crew surrendered after a gunfight.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 06:38 PM

This may be the article you mention, Nick.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 06:36 PM

"August 06, 2006
Iran seeking bomb-making uranium from the area that produced the Hiroshima bomb
August 1939 Alert: "Iran's plot to mine uranium in Africa," from the "TimesOnline, with thanks to Sam:

IRAN is seeking to import large consignments of bomb-making uranium from the African mining area that produced the Hiroshima bomb, an investigation has revealed.

A United Nations report, dated July 18, said there was "no doubt" that a huge shipment of smuggled uranium 238, uncovered by customs officials in Tanzania, was transported from the Lubumbashi mines in the Congo.

Tanzanian customs officials told The Sunday Times it was destined for the Iranian port of Bandar Abbas, and was stopped on October 22 last year during a routine check."

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 06:29 PM

Anytime the US govt starts talking about terror scares, it makes me wonder what new measures it wants to psychologically bully the population into accepting.

I read the Sunday Times the other day, claiming that Iran was trying to organise the smuggling of uranium out of Congo, but the effort was thwarted in Tanzania by customs, who were told to 'hush it up'. Iran angrily denied this, saying they had sources of uranium within Iran already and didn't need to import it. Now it would be easy to dismiss Iran's reaction, but far more importantly, the Congolese government also said there wasn't any truth in it, but their comments were nowhere to be found a day or two after they appeared on Yahoos news service.
I had a sense of deja vu - wasn't this one of the same excuses for invading Iraq (that it was importing yellow cake uranium ore from, I think, Nigeria)? It doesn't say much for the British and US governments' disdain for the credibility of people, that they are wheeling out the same old off-the-shelf fake excuses. Expect an invasion of Iran sometime soon, all as part of the plan for a new American Century.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 05:36 PM

There is an interesting confluence of events abot to take place. Elections in the US coming up at the same time Homeland Security is running 'drills' and practices. Lots of troops moving around the US, and the recent 'scare' with regard to possible terrorist activity aimed at the USA--what's that look like to you?

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 05:34 PM

Yes, and there were many comments about Paul Wolfowitz in the media at the time, along the lines of 'putting a shark in charge of a swimming pool'. They are putting their key people into key positions.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 08:31 PM

The document itself--which I read closely about four years ago (maybe five)--is scary. Interesting to see that one of its creators, Paul Wolfowitz, is now President of the World Bank. Yep! No one here but us innocents . . . .

However, PNAC very clearly describes the Neocon agenda. I am glad some folks are taking it seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: pdq
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 08:29 PM

Rap is to music what gang rape is to making love.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 08:22 PM

Forgot to add my name to my last post!

Peace: thanks for sorting the link, and don't worry - I did use to listen to Public Enemy (still good, R-DMC and Ice T a few (a good few) years back, but have since grown out of it.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 08:16 PM

Peace: Thanks for your kind word. I'm glad to see the website I mentioned made it through this time. By the way, I should add, for the benefit of Brits, Israeli and US readers, that when 'I say the US must..' or 'Israel shoud..' I am talking about the governments of those countries, and not so much the people. Sure, the people elect the governments (or almost, in the case of Bush: much helped in his presidential bid by legal wrangling) but then governments often go rogue and don't do the things they promised and we asked them to do at election time. If they had signed a contract they could be sued for breach of contract. The way I look at it is that in western democracies, most governments are wilfully disobedient to their electorate, because in a democracy, and especially in a Republic (The US is one such), ultimate power resides in the people. Government are simply the day-to-day administrators chosen by the people, charged witha job to do. Many of our so-called democratic leaders get some kind of amnesia once they get into government and anoint themselves as mini-kings, to rule over the serfs. I know there are many, many ordinary people from all walks of life in the US totally opposed to the war in Iraq, a huge number, if not a majority of Britions opposed to Blair acting as Bush's pet poodle, and a considerable number of Israelis not happy with the way Knesset is acting in Palestine and Lebanon. But their voices tend to get ignored by the leaders once they get in power. And then we lecture the Arabs on democracy!
One ironic tragedy of the middle east conflict is that Jews and Arabs are actually first cousins, all descended from the original 12 Tribes of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 08:10 PM

Here's your link, Nick.

If we end up sharing a cell, I will be straight up front right now: I friggin' dislike rap music.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 07:54 PM

For some interstin reason or another, a website that I invited readers to check out for themslves mysteriously disappeared when my post was submitted. So, here it is again, in pieces, to help avoid the censor gremlins: www and now the next bit(don't forget the dot after www) new american century (that should be all one word, again with a dot after it) and finally org (as in organisation) Hopefully it'll get posted this time!

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 07:54 PM

Nick: I truly appreciate your thoughtful and considered reply. You are a good man, and I hope you keep well and keep saying what you're saying. Because you're absolutely right.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 07:45 PM

Re: From: Peace
"So, again, why would Israel feel any sense of needing to attend peace talks when they know that the day after the talks, Hezbollah will be upto the same old crap again?"

I know, I know. I was at an anti-war rally today, and the organisers, though criticising Israel for their onslaught into Lebanon, in the same breath said that even if Hizbullah were to win and control an independent palestine, it would be very unlikely to produce a governemnet dedicated to personal freedom, and be more along the lines of the Taliban, or the House of Saud (which adds deep corruption to fundamentalism). They also pointed out that while Israel has the right to defend itself, it has gone far beyond that in Lebanon - e.g it has bombed cities far north of the area where Hizbullah have operated, has destroyed most of the infrastructure - infrastructure which Lebanon painstakingly rebuilt for 15 years after their civil war and a previous Israeli occupation ended - and in effect, punished the Lebanese population. Furthermore there is the issue of the Shaaba farms, the source of the Litani river, which as I already said, is one of the aims of Israel. Israel still refuses to hand these back to lebanon.
Hizbullah and the other extremists can be marginalised and deafeated even, but not in the way Ehud Olmert and Bush want to go about it. they are applying the military solution, but the only way that can achieve its aim is through genocide. The more you apply it, the more you marginalise and destroy people's lives, and the more you radicalise them. After all, if you've lost your job / livelihood, your house, your hobbies, your whole life, and maybe even some of your friends and family, there's nothing left except radical politics. Your life becomes cheap and you want revenge for the wrongs that have been done to you. You can see it also in Israelis who have been targeted by Hizbullah rockets - blind support for Olmert and the IDF, perhaps a burning resentment towards Muslims, aho come to be associated with hizbullah etc.,
My suggestion is that terrorism can, contrary to popular logic, be defeated by kindness. It's a radical idea, I know, but one that still remains to be tried. Sure, you will always have a small percentagefor whom mayhem is a chosen way of life, but they can be greatly marginalised by giving the population as a whole hope and a standard of living. Their faith needs to be restored in the mechanisms of democracy and dialogue. At present, that is not the case, and the White House administartion - especially Cheney, Rice and other eminence grises bear a lot of the blame (Israel would not be so self-confidently attacking left right and centre if it did not feel supported by the White House for one thing). Rice et al, have helped make the UN security council a talk shop or puppet, for enforcing the will of the powerful nations. Israel has ignored plenty of UN resolutions, and the US made a joke of them by calling for a UN resolution to sanction an invasion of Iraq, but going ahead and invading it anyway before one was forthcoming. This shows that the real function of the UN is to give the gloss of respectability to what the powerful nations want to do. There was a cartoon in one of the papers here about Rice, when she said the time wasn't right for a ceasefire. It showed her standing with lebanon in the background being slowly reduced to rubble, and saying 'not yet.....not yet...." and finally, when everything was destroyed 'now!'. Palestinians, Hizbullah and most of the Arab world are no less intelligent than we in the west and they can see this blatant bias and hypocrisy a mile away. While arab governements may not do much, it is their young population who get indignant, so indignant that they go and sign up to HJzbullah or the taliban or whatever, making western accustaions of 'arab terrorism' a self-fulfilling prophecy. The US gives over $1 billion in aid to Israel every year. If some of that money was diverted to alleviating suffering in palestine (the US was giving SOME money to palestine, but a pittance compared to what Israel got, and none now that the palestinians have used their democratic vote 'incorrectly' to elect Hamas as their leadership) and to rebuild lebanon, you would see much goodwill generated in the arab world. The funds could be carefully monitored to ensure they did not go into armaments etc., Israel could make the moves I suggested above, and the US could start acting more impartially. All of this would, believe me, bring about a dramatic change. It would need to be open and transparent and honest though. The benefits would be peace in the middle east, far better security around the world, far fewer terrorist attacks, if any, and a good deal for everyone. As long as arabs in the region see that UN resolutions are enforced only with respect to them, and that all the funding goes to one side only, and that Israel is allowed to grab land, get away with having nuclear weapons etc., while they are not, their dignity if not their survival will demand thgat they fight.
If the weak countries are the only ones obliged to paly by the rules and must make all the moves, and the first moves, nothing will be achieved. That is because it will impossible to escape the conclusion that they had to do so BECAUSE they were weak. On the the other hand, if the powerful countries, like the US, Britain and Israel were to show some generosity of spirit, real progress could be made, and the confidence of the arab people rebuilt.
This is not likely to happen though. Bush, Rice, Olmert are too short-sighted to see there are no real winners in the way they are going, and that it will mean an ever more unstable world. Moreover, it would interfere with their stated aim of creating a new middle east - one with its people and oil very much under US domination (e.g look at Iraq: with its recently elected puppet government. The White House tolerated Saddam the monster for years until he went 'rogue' and bit the hand that fed him). Condoleeza Rice disgustingly called all these deaths in Lebanon - including the deaths of hundreds of children - 'the birth pangs of a new middle east' Birth pangs are normally associated with something good - birth, new life - but in Rice's twisted mind, she sees it as death clearing away unwanted Arabs and reshaping their lands - in short, Lebensraum. Like I said in an earlier post, the Nazi mentality is not confined to the Nazis alone, though the flags and slogans and symbols may be different. I don't wish to offend anyone by this statement, just call a spade a spade. They (US, Israel and Britain) are enboldened in this project by the collapse of the old Soviet Union (which would have blocked some of this exapansion in the middle east long ago, had the cold war still been in force). Don't just take my word for it, check out for example But it may yet come into conflict with China - who is casting equally covetous eyes on the middleast's oil, vital for its accelerating eceonomy. Thanks to all these myopic warmongerers, we may yet see World War Three in our lifetimes. I hope not.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 10:00 AM

These arguments go 'round and 'round but the truth is this:

There are factions of Muslims who want to see Israel destroyed.
There are factions of Israelis who want to see the concept of Palestine as a nation destroyed.

There are atrocities on both sides. One country's "freedom fighters" are another's "terrorists".

Innocent people are being killed. This is justified in the name of nationalism.

On one hand..the IDF...on the other Hezbollah.

Israel is justifying violence through land expansion by turning Gaza into a Canton.
Hezbollah is firing rockets and killing innocents in Israel.
Israel has evicted Muslim people from their homes and destroyed those homes.
Hezbollah is marginalized to the point that there will be no constructive talks with them as a party.
There are innocent Muslims who do not agree with the Hezbollah violence.
There are people within Israel who do not approve of the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza or the bombing of Lebanon.

The Bush Administration has taken Israel's side but historically has sold weapons to Sadam Hussein and Iran.

There is enough perfidy on all sides to make you wonder if the world is a great big madhouse.

At the root of the problem as always lies religious differences.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 07:38 AM

But Hezbullah is determined to exterminate an enemy that has come to steal the land that their grandfathers were born and died on, and these enemies (who wish to drive out the existing inhabitants) believe that some old guy somewhere told them that HE gave them this land... thus a battle to the death ensues ...

Two Nations Enter - One Nation Lives!

Welcome to Thunderdome!

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 05:20 AM

The difference you seem to miss--and you are too clever not to miss it intentionally--is that Hezbollah purposely targets civilians (they have said to in a few Arabic publications) while Israel does its best to target the sources of Hexbollah rocket fire and buildings from which they have been fired on. It is not Israel's fault that Hezbollah hides amongst the civilian population, Robin. And you are certainly clever enough to know that.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 01:12 AM

Israel claims it is morally right to attack the civilian homes of Hezbulla, thereby killing their families.

All Israelis have to serve in the military, men & women (except a few religious scholars), so Hezbullah see no 'just civilians', either, so from their viewpoint, attacking Israeli civilian houses must be OK too...

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 07:42 PM

Nick, I hear you. While I do support Israel, I too think the methodology is counter-productive. But when the only tool ya have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. I think there will be an enforced peace that addresses the concerns of the parties involved, but it will drag to allow Israel to inflict more damage on Hezbollah. That will mean more civilian deaths, but what is the alternative for Israel? Leave Hezbollah in place and pretend they didn't attack Israel? The Isreali people will not stand for that.

All one has to do is read the world press. Nothing has changed really. The same people/countries that slagged Isreal before this war simply continue to slag Israel. From an Isreali perspective, they have no reason to stop. Hezbollah's avowed purpose is the complete and utter destruction of Israel--the country and the people. So, again, why would Israel feel any sense of needing to attend peace talks when they know that the day after the talks, Hezbollah will be upto the same old crap again?

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 07:19 PM

To: Peace,

Re. "What would you have Israel do in response to rocket attacks by Hezbollah and Hamas from Lebanon and the Gaza?"

Yes, I agree, it is quite a conundrum. The most natural reaction when attacked is to defend yourself. I am just not sure if what Israel is doing is in fact the most effective form of defence in the long term. In the short term, maybe, if they suceed in killing all the members of Hizbullah. But this looks very unlikely. Since Israel's invasion of Lebanon, rocket attacks have increased hundredfolds. Even if they do wipe out most of the present group of Hizbullah, there will be plenty of new recruits to step forward, and so the situation will be an endless cycle of violence, which I don't think is to either sides advantage. One problem has been the tendency of Western administrations (e.g the White House, Blair) to portray Hizbullah as criminal lunatics, madmen from outer space etc., summarised in the convenient term 'terrorist'. As Oscar Wilde said 'an alcoholic is someone you don't like who drinks as much as you'. I'm not saying that Hizbullah don't terrorise Israeli people living near the border with their rockets, but the Lebanese are equally terrified of being killed by 500 lb bombs that might come through their ceilings at any moment. The Israeli's have a primary responsibility to their own citizens, of course. But to get peace in the area we need to get at the root problems, not just kill or imprison a few gunmen here or there, or flatten half a country. Like I said in a previous thread, it is the mentality of all sides that the problems can be solved with bomb and bullet that is the problem. It is not enough to say Hizbullah must stop its rocket attacks. Hizbullah are fighting for their survival too, and if I was in their situation, I wouldn't give up my arms to be shot down like a dog or thrown in prison for the rest of my life. Nor are the Israelis going to see any sense in just going home. Knesset has said this would be a sign of weakness and invite further trouble. But Knesset may be wrong about that. As the militarily more powerful country by a big margain, Israel could make a real break with the cycle of violence by agreeing to an immediate ceasefire. Remember rocket attacks greatly increased since the invasion, halting it and even pulling back a little as a show of faith might well have the effect of stopping or reducing the attacks. Hizbullah at present feel no need to show any restraint since there is a de facto war in progress. A cessation by Hizbullah alone would not be a sign of magnaminity, but simply a sign of capitulation by the logically weaker combatant. Little moral effect could be achieved from this. Israel has stated that the kidnapping of IDF soldiers was one of the principal motivations for the invasion, but I have shown in a previous post why this is far removed from the truth. On the other hand Israel itself kidnapped a number of palestinians shortly prior to the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers, and most recently kidnapped a prominent member of the Hamas government, who claims he was beaten in custody. They also hold hundreds of palestinians in prison, many for years without trial. As a goodwill gesture they could release large numbers of these, especially those that have been there longest. Israel could gain enormous propaganda value from such moves, and it would be an enormous moral boost to prospects for peace. You might ask 'why should Israel be the one to make these moves?' Well, first off, you could equally ask why is it that when Rice and Bush open their mouths it is always to ask Hamas or Hizbullah to make the first move, and never Israel. But more importantly it is, as I said, precisely because Israel IS the stronger party, that they have most to gain from making such moves. They create a strong moral precedent that is hard to ignore. It doesn't help that the Western leaders tend to keep regurgitating the same old claptrap that Hamas and Hizbullah are above all, 'terrorists' (before they are human beings) and that you can no more negotiate with them than you could with whooping cough or diptheria. That in turn tends to back Israel into a corner where they feel any negotiations to be a sign of weakness rather than magnamity and maturity. Whatever extremist element drives Hamas and Hizbullah (and indeed, the IDF) could be isolated far more effectively by modertaion and negotiation, though this may not be as glamorous and in keeping with the 'hard man' image so popular at present. You would find fewer arabs willing to support Hamas or Hizbullah if Israel could barter a just and fair deal with the palestinians. This would mean reviewing the route of the infamous wall that cuts through palestinian territory, not creating new settlements into palestine while demolishing old ones, not cutting off / blockading aid to the Hamas government (elected democratically as the choice of the palestinian people) etc., Hamas in turn would have to clamp down on the extremist elements. But though it flies in the face of conventional wisdom, I think it would be better for Israel to make the first moves, and not allow the US to bully Hamas / Hizbullah to do so, as usual. Sure, it's a big gamble, and we're talking years or even decades, but everyone has a lot to gain - except the extremists, who will find themselves in a minority pretty fast. There's nothing like a little prosperity, stability and peace to de-radicalise a people. At present, with 70% unemployement, and practically no public money available, young palestinian men have little to do except stand round watching IDF artillery shells flatten their houses, feel resentful and seek revenge. And as the militarily stronger country, they could quickly regain lost ground (or pulverise it, anyway) if none of this worked out. The 'iron fist' advocated by Bush (who eggs Israel on for his own reasons) has been shown to be a profound failure in creating a better world order / a more peaceful world. Extremism is far more widespread, previously lethargic people all round the world have been radicalised by his blatant bias and hypocrisy, countries like Iraq have been reduced to ashes in the name of 'democracy' and driven to civil war. This is no way forward,and we need people with longer-range vision than Bush and his cabinet of cronies. Knesset / Israel could break the mould here and not just follow the tired old warmongering rhetoric under the shadow of the White House.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: freda underhill
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 06:36 PM

can you read, bbruce?

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 06:21 PM

"that's why its so important to call others baddies - that way you are always the goodie. "


So, you understand that Hezbollah blaming the Israelis should perhaps be taken with a large sack of salt?

LOOK AT THE FACTS. You have NOT addressed the FACT that the war crimes committed by Hezbollah are the direct cause of the large number of deaths. YOU have NOT addressed the FACT that Hezbollah continues to use area mass bombardment rockest on a civilian population, in violation of international law. YOU ignore the FACT that Israel has gone out ofits way to reduce civilian casualties, while Hezbollah has done everything possible to increase them.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 06:16 PM

"WHY IS ISRAEL USING THE KIDNAPPING OF TWO SOLDIERS TO EXPAND ITS BORDERS INTO ANOTHER COUNTRY?"

And who says Israel is expanding its borders? Israel states it will withdraw when UNR 1559 is implemented.


"humanitarian law requires a DISTINCTION BETWEEN CIVILIAN AND MILITARY TARGETS."

Which Israel has done, and Hezbollah has NOT.


"More than 1,000 Lebanese, most of them civilians, have been killed and 123 Israelis, most of them soldiers, have also been killed. (BBC online) THAT is the crime."

AGREED. The difference is YOU blame Israel for defending itself, and I blame Hezbollah for its war crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: freda underhill
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 06:15 PM

of course, I forgot, its ALWAYS the other side's fault, ALWAYS.

that's why its so important to call others baddies - that way you are always the goodie.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 06:10 PM

"It was Israel that started the mass bombing - and Hezbollah is responding"


says who? are not the rockets over the last several years by Hezbollah attacking innocent Israelis of any importance?

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 05:48 PM

Thanks, but no thanks. It does not answer the question.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: freda underhill
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 05:42 PM

The question should be rephrased, Bruce: How should Hezbollah respond to the bombing of Lebanese citizens by Israel? What Israel was responding to was the kidnapping of two Israeli soldiers. It was Israel that started the mass bombing - and Hezbollah is responding. What part of that can't you understand?

More than 10,000 Israeli troops are now fighting Hezbollah guerrillas in south Lebanon. In the new phase, Israeli forces will push toward Lebanon's Litani River, some 18 miles from the Israel-Lebanon border, trying to capture more than twice as much territory as they hold now.
WHY IS ISRAEL USING THE KIDNAPPING OF TWO SOLDIERS TO EXPAND ITS BORDERS INTO ANOTHER COUNTRY?

I repeat: Israel has a right of self-defence against Hezbollah found in both the United Nations Charter and customary international law. However, the right of self defence is not unlimited. Israel can legitimately attack Hezbollah fighters and justify the targeting of certain objects based on military necessity. However, humanitarian law requires a DISTINCTION BETWEEN CIVILIAN AND MILITARY TARGETS.

The bombing of large tracts of southern Lebanon, the bombing of civilians, children, refugees and Maronite Christian areas are in violation of international law. And don't give me that guff about Hezbollah hiding everywhere - the Maronites don't hide Hezbollah - refugees fleeing in cars with white banners on them aren't hiding Hezbollah - Israel has an obligation not to kill civilians.

More than 1,000 Lebanese, most of them civilians, have been killed and 123 Israelis, most of them soldiers, have also been killed. (BBC online) THAT is the crime.

The only practical way for outsiders to stop the fighting is to starve the soldiers of weapons. This would mean Iran and Syria denying Hizbullah guns and rockets, and America denying Israel planes and bombs. Both would be admirable contributions to peace.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 04:19 PM

I will ask you the same question I have asked others, Freda. What would you have Israel do in response to rocket attacks by Hezbollah and Hamas from Lebanon and the Gaza?

I agree that the intensity of Israel's response is massive. However, they have to answer the same question I just asked you (and have asked on other threads and have yet to receive a response from anyone other than words to the effect: "Well, if Israel wasn't there in the first place then none of this woulda happened" kinda stuff).

I await your response.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 09:49 AM

"They come off as 'lily-white' "

Not with me, they don't. Neither side does, and both sides have been taking pot shots at each other across the border (with civilians being killed) for years, since Israel walked out of most of Lebanon last time - the Hezbullah taking that for their excuse for pot shots Israel squatting on some border land, and Israel using the old playground excuse - "but ma, he hit me back first!"

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: freda underhill
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 08:10 AM

Israel has a right of self-defence found in both the United Nations Charter and customary international law. However, the right of self defence is not unlimited. Israel commenced its military campaign against Hezbollah forces in Lebanon after the capture of two of its soldiers in mid-July. The scale and intensity of the Israeli military campaign has clearly moved well beyond efforts to retrieve its soldiers.

Israel is also bound by international humanitarian law based upon the 1949 Geneva Conventions. Israel can legitimately attack Hezbollah fighters and justify the targeting of certain objects based on military necessity. However, humanitarian law requires a distinction between civilian and military targets.

The bombing of large tracts of southern Lebanon, the bombing of civilians, children, refugees and Maronite Christian areas are in violation of international law - Housing blocks have been reduced to rubble, leaving thousands homeless. Villages have been bombed without justification. Aid and humanitarian workers including the Red Cross have been targeted. Israel has shattered Lebanon's infrastructure and economy, homes, factories and warehouses have been destroyed, roads severed, bridges smashed and airports disabled.

Yes, Lebanon's failure to control Hezbollah must be acknowledged. It has failed to meet the requirements of Security Council Resolution 1559 calling for the disarming and disbanding of Hezbollah.

However, do Lebanon's failings justify the scale and intensity of the Israeli assault? No. The reconstruction of the last 15 years has been obliterated in a few weeks.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: freda underhill
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 07:45 AM

It's weird that while Israel is bombing Lebanon into rubble, the war on Lebanon is being portrayed as a war for Israel's survival, as if it were Israel that's at risk.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 06:47 AM

" then drops its bombs bombs almost immediately, "


Really? They have been giving 24 hours notice from the reports I have seen- Can you point to other reports??




"I also remember seeing a photograph published in Newsweek magazine in April of 2004 (if I remember correectly) of Israeli soldiers with a 13-year old Palestinian teenage boy tied to their jeep as a human shield. I doubt this was an isolated incident. "

A case which went to the Isralei Supreme court. Can you show any Palestinian court cases for any of the illegal terrorist actions?




" I believe Jews are entitled to a homeland as much as anyone. "

Have you looked at San Remo Conference or Treaty of Lucerne? Gave specific borders for Turket,Iraq, Syria, and Mandate Palestine- WHICH WAS DIVIDED by the British into an Arab Homeland (Transjordan ) and a Jewish Homeland. Looks like what happened in India/Pakistan- except one side is STILL trying to remove the other.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 12:04 AM

True, FT. However, the more cogent question, IMO, is why the Hezbollah have been able to do such a fine job controlling the media and resulting opinions people have? They come off as 'lily-white' and the Israelis as the only bad guys in the war. Makes one wonder who is pulling whose strings. As always, if the Israelis are so powerful and influential (as anti-Semites would have us believe: according to them, the 'Jews' of the world own the press--that's a litany we have heard often from the racist element here), then why have they done so poorly in the 'propaganda' war?

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 11:35 PM

As I said, it's interesting, and I have seen released Israeli military footage targeting rockets rising places from other than trees - the photographers' stuff I have been seeing has obviously shot from quite a distance away - obviously for their own safety. And that raises a second point, about the 'filtering', inadvertent or deliberate, of the various news sources...

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: number 6
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 11:19 PM

Footage I have seen (and I watch MANY different sources) shows rocket rising from beside trees and some residential buildings. E-mails (just prior to his death) from the Canadian peacekeeper who was a victim of an Israeli rocket did mention Hizbellah used their (UN) outpost as a 'shield'.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 11:17 PM

Save it, Foolestroupe. The Israelis are targeting return fire (artilery) and air strikes based on light sources from fired rockets (look up, look WAAAAAAAY up). I am sure some rockets ARE fired from bush/brush/stands of trees. We also know beyond doubt that Hezbollah and Hamas are firing from densely populated civilian areas. Fact, buddy.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 11:12 PM

Interesting how most of the footage I see on TV (and I watch MANY different sources) show the rockets rising from thick stands of trees, not residential areas.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: number 6
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 10:58 PM

This jeep incident .... never seen this pic ... but regardless, maybe it did happen, and yes maybe there were other incident's ... they do happen in times of war ... by Canadians, Australians, Brits, and whatever ... the most recent autrocity being the rape, and murder by a few American troops in Iraq .... do we condemn all Americans as barbarians for this? This 'jeep' incident you mention ... are all Israelis/Jews to be condemned? We condenm the members of the Nazi party and their paramilitary divison th SS for the autrocities, not Germans. BTW, inaccurate statement mentioning how the Israelis force's, warnings are followed immediately bombing. There is evidence that the Hizbullah does position it's rocket launchers in crowded civilian areas, and yes there is much mountainous countryside available they can use instead.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 10:56 PM

GuestNick
It has been nearly two days since I posted to this thread, having said all that I thought was relevant. In this, and related threads, I have sometimes tried to argue with history; I have sometimes tried to show the fallacy in the method of an argument; I have sometimes used irony and even a bit of humor [tho' that's in the eye of the beholder]. I have tried to respond to arguments with respect, tho not wholly succeeding, I'm sure.
But your post of 10:09 finally go to me. I find I do not agree with anything you have said anywhere in that essay. I find it mostly historically innaccurate and filled with morally equivalent twaddle. I also find many disengenuous statements that border on the mendacious.
As to whether you are anti-Semitic...well you used the term, and it is between you and your God, or at least between you and your conscience.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 10:16 PM

Well read, and well said, Nick.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 10:09 PM

re. post by beardedbruce:

"You have NOT addressed the stated point ( by the UN observer) that the Hezbollah forces are using such as human shields, and thus bear the guilt THEMSLVES for any civilian casualtie"

I haven't yet seen any evidence that Hizbullah are actually using civilians as human shields. They are firing their rockets from areas where civilians live, but that describes most of Lebanon. Perhaps they should fire them from the moon, where we can be sure there are no civilians. On the other hand, the Israeli Defence Force warns civilians to flee southern Lebanon, and then drops its bombs bombs almost immediately, catching numerous civilians as they are trying to escape. I also remember seeing a photograph published in Newsweek magazine in April of 2004 (if I remember correectly) of Israeli soldiers with a 13-year old Palestinian teenage boy tied to their jeep as a human shield. I doubt this was an isolated incident. For students of history, this technique was pioneered by the Black and Tans in Ireland in 1920. Knesset originally justified its invasion of Lebanon on account of the kidnapping of two of its soldiers (despite Israel having kidnapped hundreds of Palestinians, as noted elsewhere on this thread). Proof that this is nonsense can be partly found in the probability that these two soldiers are probably dead by now under houses reduced to rubble by bombs dropped by their IDF colleagues. The most logical explanation I have come across yet anywhere for Israel's invasion is their desire to grab control of the Litani river in southern Lebanon, an important source of fresh water in an increasingly arid region. On the news the other night Knesset announced its intention to push as fas as the Litani river, unsurprisingly. The only problem is that this will create a huge new wave of recruitment to Hizbullah, and thus be counterproductive to Israel's other stated aim of destroying that organisation. Then, with Hizbullah activity NORTH of the Litani river, Israel will say it has to invade Lebanon NORTH of the Litani river in order to defend itself, and so on all the way up to the North Pole, probably. US interest in the region will last as long as the oil lasts, leaving Israel surrounded and alone amongst very hostile Arab neighbours. It would make sense for them to do the magnanimous thing and strike a workable deal with their Arab neighbours and not leave a legacy of fighting and war to their grandchildren. Even if the palestinians did not go for a seperate state in 1948 is no reason for Israel not to puruse that line now. Indeed they were doing so up to recently, but two things got in the way: the Palestinian people democratically choose Hamas to represent them, and Israel began a series of land grabs with their wall, withdrawing from some settlements but gaining better ground elsewhere, including whole palestinian farms of olive trees and so on. It was not a deal palestinians were ever likely to go with.

As for comments on the correleation betwen Zionists and Nazis, the connection is not as far-fetched as John on Sunset Coast and others claim. Just because the Jewish people were victims of the Nazis, does not mean they can never be like them: indeed bullies usually learn their behaviour from being bullied by others. The Irish were victims of British colonial rule, but Irishmen (and ocassionally, women) could be found imposing Britain's imperial will as footsoldiers in its army, or among the most brutal of slave plantation overseers in 1800s USA. The word 'Nazi' has become lazy shorthand for 'evil' or 'monstrous'. Of course, in a sense it's true - there was something very evil, even demonic, about the Nazis. But they were not the only villians in history and they did nothing that hadn't been done before. Genocide: had been carried out many times before - in South America by Spanish conquistadores who treated the native indians like dirt, in the USA when native American Indians were wiped out with dieseased blankets (germ warfare), gatling guns and herded into reservations (concentration camps). The British did their fair share, as did the French and so on. Anti-Jewish pogroms were a fairly regular feature of the Jewish experience in Europe throughout their diaspora: the massacre of Jews in York in the 13th century, the expulsion of Jews from Spain in the 15th century, the pogroms of 19th centruy Russia and eastern Europe. These are only a tiny fraction of the examples, which would fill a volume of books if given in full. Ironically, the one place where Jews had a relatively untroubled existence was in Germany, until the Nazis took power. As someone else said in this thread, the Germans blamed the wrong people for thier hardship after WW1 - they should have blamed the French, British and to a lesser extent, Americans, for the ridiculous and unjust terms of the Versailles treaty, but instead Hitler found a convenient scapegoat in the Jews. But the Nazis did nothing new - except to conduct the pogrom on a industrialised scale. The scale was so big it shocked the world, even one jaded by all the centuries of previous anti-semitism, and the horrors of WW1. It couldn't be brushed under the carpet like other pogroms. But the notion that Britain and the USA fought WW2 to save the Jews is an unfounded one, whatever Spielberg might like to claim in his movies (see e.g Band of Brothers - "Reasons Why We Fight"). It might not be popular to say it now, but many American servicemen of WW2 would have gone home if they thought they were fighting a war to save the Jews: anti-semitism was not unknown in the USA either. But in recent times this justification has been put forward as the motivation for British and US involvement in WW2. It's not that it's not a noble idea - any attempt to save an innocent people from a horrible extermination is noble - it's just that it's not true. It was more an accidental result of US and British involvement in WW2 than a predetermined goal. But by advancing that idea, the Brit and US governments and idealogues are trying to create a moral continuum in which the Nazis of today (read: 'the enemy / terrorists / witches') are Isalmic fundamentalists, "we fought a moral war back then, and so we are fighting one now' - even though what's going on in Iraq and Afghanistan flies in the face of all morality. The probloem with this idea is that there is a bit of the Nazi psychology in all the sides, in the sense that there is an element of fascism in the ideology of Islamic fundamentalist, Zionist and Republican right-winger alike. For example they all put blind faith in military might to solve their problems, believe their way of life is superior to any other, believe they are Divinely inspired (poor God must be wringing His hands in sorrow), that their will must be imposed on others by bomb and bullet. None of them will countenance any dissent from their viewpoint.

No doubt John will simplistically accuse me of being anti-semitic. Well, not a bit of it. I believe Jews are entitled to a homeland as much as anyone. True, I only know a few Jewish friends, but I like and regard them highly. My like / dislike of anyone is based on their personality, not their race /ethnicity. Accusations of anti-semitism is a smokescreen to avoid any scrutiny or criticsim of what is going on in Palestine and Lebanon. Accusations of 'Nazi' in relation to Islamic fundamentalists, in the US and UK media is basically a tool employed to deflect serious scrutiny of their own behaviour and policies. The basic premise is that the only real villians in history were the Nazis, and since the US and UK defeated the Nazis (actually it was the Russians who did most of the hard work) they must be the 'good guys'. Wrong!

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 10:22 AM

If Israel was doing the indiscriminate killing the Hezbollah supporters claim, that friggin' village would have ceased to exist 5.9 weeks ago. Get a grip!

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 08:57 AM

"Israel responded to an unprovoked attack by Hizbullah, right? Wrong "

I had been thinking Poland, Vietnam - 'unprovoked', you know...


"of all of Israel's wars since 1948, this was the one for which Israel was most prepared ... By 2004, the military campaign scheduled to last about three weeks that we're seeing now had already been blocked out and, in the last year or two, it's been simulated and rehearsed across the board".

Hmmm.... 6 weeks... since Israel has been claiming to 'be in control' of that little village for nearly the last 3 weeks, looks like their schedule is now behind... funny I seem to remember claims that The German army was 'in control of Stalingrad', for weeks before they surrendered to the Russians...

Power-Point Presentation, eh, perhaps they should have sent a copy of the script to Hezbullah.... "as you can clearly see from the animation"... wonder if they used the same template as the 'war for Iraq"?

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 08:44 AM

Hmmm, define 'unprovoked' - in the historical context of 'The Middle East'.... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 08:37 AM

"Hmmmm, a wise man once said "by their ACTIONS shall ye know them"... "

Then keep on posting Foolestroupe.

sIx