BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:14 AM

Foolstroupe, you obviously don't understand the Jewish concept of 'Chosen People" either. If you did you would not havemade such a glib dismissal of my comment. I suggest you join Little Hawk in gaining knowledge.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:07 AM

"You obviously have no understanding of the Jewish concept of being the 'Chosen People'; if you did you would not juxtapose it to 'master race'. I choose to believe that you are too honorable a person purposely make that comparison if you know better.
May I suggest you visit a rabbi in your area and get educated on the concept. "

Seen from externally, such mental differences are a matter of 'faith'.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:02 AM

"Why are the rest still there?"

Well there are these people living on the land they were expelled from...

"And it isn't the fault of Israel."

.....?

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 11:58 PM

BERNARD-HENRI LEVY: A French Imposter

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: flattop
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 11:04 PM

Apart from politics, watch the technology.

Thick walled forts kept attackers at bay, more or less, until cannons rendered the walls useless. Then no one built stone walled forts.

Something similar is happening where plentiful and relatively inexpensive missiles are rendering older technologies ineffective.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 10:42 PM

Q-The people who have marginalized Palestinean people are their Arab bretheren. They could have had a country in 1948, the first in their history. They, with the instigation of all the Arab countries chose to fight instead. But we've been through this before. Why is it that of all the countries established since 1948, and all the people who were displaced by border shifts, only Palestineans are still in so-called refugee camps? Did you know that Palestineans are amongst the most educated and successful Arabs outside of the camps? Why are the rest still there? And it isn't the fault of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: number 6
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 10:35 PM

Excellent point John (aain) .... LH, I also suggest you do that. It certainly would provide some much undertanding.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: number 6
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 10:33 PM

"Jews would have to step outside their accustomed group consciousness to do it."

... I've stepped out of my group consciousness (which by the way consists of about 3) and I totally disagree. There is absolutely no analogy as to what is is happening in these last tragic 3 weeks to Israel and the Nazis ... absolutely none.

Forget about 'victimhood' in relation to the Israelis ... they are a nation now protecting themselves ... brutal as war is.

Personally I wish both sides would 'step back'. Enough is enough.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 10:32 PM

Little Hawk, aside from the psycho-babble you spout, do you enjoy making innacurate comparisons? You obviously have no understanding of the Jewish concept of being the 'Chosen People'; if you did you would not juxtapose it to 'master race'. I choose to believe that you are too honorable a person purposely make that comparison if you know better.
May I suggest you visit a rabbi in your area and get educated on the concept.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 10:23 PM

The Palestinian Arabs and Christians have been left with scraps of useless land on which most live as refugees. To me it seems Israel wishes to destroy Lebanon as well as a viable country, a goal far beyond neutralizing Hezbollah. I regard this as a form of genocide.

Hezbollah and Hamas would not have grown to threatening size if Israeli Zionists had not forced the Palestinians into a hopelessly marginalized position.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 10:05 PM

I respectfully disagree, gents. The pyschology is very, very similar to that of the Nazis. The fact that the Israelis have not yet equalled the degree of physical crimes against humanity committed by the Nazis does not change the psychological underpinnings one iota. I'm not comparing the degree of the act involved, I'm comparing the psychological assumptions of victimhood and "master race/chosen people" that lie behind the policy, and I find them very similar. I also find the military doctrine very similar, as regards general tactical approach to campaigning.

And yes, 6, I DID indicate in my post that I think the most fanatical opponents OF Israel (which would include Hezbollah) are also adopting the same Nazi-like cult of "victimhood" and are abusing it in a similar fashion, using it to justify their violence upon Israelis...only they're not well armed enough to do the classic blitzkrieg warfare like the Israelis do it.


You know, Hitler was under the funny impression that the German people had been victimized horribly after the First World War. (well, actually, there was some reason for him to feel that way...but he exaggerated it out considerably of context...and he blamed the wrong people for it! Meaning, he blamed Jews and Communists, mostly.) He succeeded in convincing millions of Germans that they were victims...and that they would NEVER AGAIN be victims under his rule. He promised to restore the strength, diginty, and pride of the nation.

You tell me how that is psychologically all that different from the motivations that were driving Jews after WWII and have been driving them since? Same basic deal. You have a people in great trauma and distress who have taken terrible losses. You have a huge sense of collective grievance and persecution. You have a people utterly determined to NEVER AGAIN be weak in the face of an outer threat, and bent on securing military supremacy through an elite war machine second to none.

The reason you can't bear the thought of that comparison is...you don't want to believe that Jews could make the same terrible mistake the Germans did...and fall into the same darkness of intent.

Well, believe it. It's a tough pill to swallow, I know. Jews would have to step outside their accustomed group consciousness to do it. Most people are barely capable of stepping outside their group consciousness. In fact, they won't even consider doing so. They'll usually die first, rather than be that objective.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 09:53 PM

BTW .... never trust and always be wary of a political party who has it's own paramilitary group ... especially if this political party is not the majority 'ruling'party.

sIc

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 09:41 PM

well said John ... and let's leave it at that.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 09:38 PM

Little Hawk--you and all of you who insist on comparing Israel to Nazi Germany and the Final Solution thereby undercut any credibility the rest of your argument might have. It is odious and trivializes Nazism. Please show me the trains going to the gas chambers and concentration camps; show me the crescents on the garments of muslims or tattoos on their arms. Show me gangs of Jews rampaging through the streets of Tel Aviv destroying Arab homes and businesses, and just beating them up for the fun of it. Get real!

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST,Number 6
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 09:21 PM

LH ... but is not an analogy to be found in the Hezbollah and the Nazis ... a political party formed with it's own paramilitary group ... providing rhetoric of fear, distrust and revenge against a neigbouring country and 'social services' to win over the populace.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 09:03 PM

"In its extreme form, the logic of victimhood does not allow room for even the possibility of there being other victims."

Exactly. And it becomes the justification for any number of blitzkriegs, any number of invasions, any number of atrocities on the part of the eternal self-appointed victims (as they see themselves).

That's the emotional engine that drove Nazi Germany into WWII and the Final Solution, and it's the emotional engine that drives Israel. It is also becoming the emotional engine that drives Israel's most bitter Palestinian and Arab and Persian foes.

It sees only itself as victim, only its own terrorist acts as justifiable (even noble), only its own losses as something to mourn. The USA, since 911, has also fallen into that same psychological trap of imaginary victimhood and that will cause further death and suffering in distant places as a result.

It's very stupid and unproductive behaviour all around...but predictable, when people simply cannot see past their own victimhood complex.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 08:54 PM

"sort of like the robber holding a hostage as a shield."

... much like the Costa Nostra (protection racket).

"Article 85, Paragraph 3 of the Geneva Conventions states that making civilians the object of attack is illegal. Further, it states that launching an attack against civilian infrastructure breaches these conventions."

.... Hezbollah rockets being fired directly into civilian areas, packed with ball bearings ?????

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 08:49 PM

Freda--

Your author states that the Geneva Conventions make the targeting of civilians illegal. True enough; it sounds as if she is about to criticise Hizbullah (alas, she is not). Your author fails to also state that to conduct war from amongst civilians, as does Hizbullah, is also illegal. Your author also wonders why the major countries seem to ignore Israli actions; perhaps it is because those on ground from those countries do not see Israeli actions as illegal as you and she do. Lastly, I am proud of the Israeli woman who cries over the deaths of Lebanese innocents...I hope there are many like her. No one should take satisfaction from killing of innocents. I do not recall seeing in that essay mention of any Hezbullah woman so crying with regard to innocent Israelis.

I normally do not like to cite specific sites--especially of groups that I generally disagree with. But as I suspect that you do generally approve of Human Rights Watch, I think you might read their site of 5-August. They blame Hizbullah for numerous violations since the current war began, and they are quite emphatic about it (I believe they use words to the effect that there is absolutely no justification for Hizullah targing civilian populations.) And, yes, deep in their report they also cite Israel for some of its actions. I hate moral equivalence, the non-thinking persons way to avoid analysis, which is why I generally don't read such sites.

[I would blue clicky it for you if I knew how]

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 07:43 PM

Glad I looked at this most one sided article. Interesting as well are the credentials of the author.

Let me, not so humbly, suggest a perusal of the NY Times magazine of 8/6/06 and the article---a most fair minded one---Henri Levy (French)that looks at all sides---and also who was attacked in the first place.

He also makes a very interesting point---the people appointed to high government posts (Defense, etc;) after the pullout from Gaza were "Doves" (Peacenicks--as he calls them). Now they are faced with doing what they have tried to avoid. Diplomacy would be nice but there are those, as we all know from public statements, that want Israel obliterated. Read --the "fascists" in Iran and their cronies.

No sense repeating what I posted on another thread but leaving Gaza and hoping for some constructive actions from the Palestinians (who Hezbollah, by the way, cares not a whit about) proved unfruitful to say the least.

I suggest a reading of the article because I think you will see both points of view---and the tragedy that Hezbollah is bringing on all sides.

A last thought--if you read the NY Times piece. I was struck by the similarity of their actions (Hezbollah) with the Lebanese people and the actions of Mayor Daley (the elder) who gave charity in return for votes to the citizens of Chicago. Hezbollah gives charity to their constituents and then uses their neighborhoods to launch rockets---sort of like the robber holding a hostage as a shield.

Bill Hahn

Subject: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: freda underhill
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 06:48 PM

why the world is silent