BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 05:52 AM

Israel responded to an unprovoked attack by Hizbullah, right? Wrong

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 12:53 AM

"Any posts correlating the Israelis to the Nazis is way out of line"


Hmmmm, a wise man once said "by their ACTIONS shall ye know them"...

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 12:27 AM

Well Flattop, if we all worked together maybe, hopefully we'll find it.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: flattop
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 12:16 AM

Will I stumble on the path to peace if I follow close behind you?

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 11:28 PM

As if you know the road and meaning to peace flattop.

Any posts correlating the Israelis to the Nazis is way out of line. Nothing but bullshit babble spewing of the mouths of utter ignorance.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: flattop
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 11:01 PM

Peace be with you, me son.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 10:53 PM

I just message the AH. May his balls rot for that remark.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: bobad
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 10:42 PM

Ya see what ya wanna see and ya hear what ya wanna hear, flattop.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: flattop
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 10:38 PM

What are Hamm and Peas saying here? That Israel hasn't killed their quota of innocent people? That it would have been better if the Israelis had killed innocent people in a square in Tel Aviv and controlled media coverage? That Russian atrocities justify Israeli atrocities?

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 08:36 PM

Do you recall the movie, "Judgement at Nuremberg". When the German judge (played by Burt Lancaster) had been convicted of signing death warrants for innocent jews he tried to explain to the prosecutor (played by Spencer Tracey ) that he thought only a handful of jews would be executed, the prosecutor replied that by signing a death warrant for ONE innocent man he had lost his humanity. Despite my sympathy for the jews in Israel, the killing of ONE innocent lebanese child puts them in the same category.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 06:58 AM

"remarkably restrained"

Yeah, at least the latest trend to bombing cemeteries at least isn't killing live ones... although the family cemetery plot was bombed along with the house of the father of a guy in Hezbullah - killing only a young girl.

I noticed that when the USA bombed a parking station in Iraq where civilians were hiding to escape indiscriminate bomb strikes on civilian housing seems to be as acceptable as when the Israelis did it now...

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Peace
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 09:44 PM

From C Ham's link:

"The track record of many of Israel's most powerful accusers--including China, Russia and the European Union--is not nearly as good at balancing civilian risk against military goals.
China killed hundreds of peaceful Tiananmen Square protestors in 1989. It has for five decades occupied Tibet, slaughtering tens of thousands; and it vows to invade Taiwan if it declares independence. Neither the Tiananmen protesters nor Tibet nor Taiwan has ever threatened to "wipe China off the map."

Russia has fought since 1994 to suppress Chechnya's independence movement. Out of a Chechen population of one million, as many as 200,000 have been killed as Russia has leveled the capital city of Grozny. Chechen rebels pose no threat to "wipe Russia off the map." All of the leading EU countries actively participated in NATO's 78-day bombing campaign against Yugoslavia in 1999. The military goal was to stop Yugoslavia from oppressing its Kosovar minority. NATO bombs and missiles hit Yugoslav bridges, power plants and a television station, killing hundreds of civilians. Yugoslavia posed no threat to the existence of any of the EU countries that bombed it.

Compared with how China, Russia, and the EU have dealt with non-existential threats--and despite the law-flouting behavior of Hezbollah, Iran and Syria--Israel's responses to the threats to its existence have been remarkably restrained rather than disproportionately violent."

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: C. Ham
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 09:42 PM

Expert legal opinion on "war crimes" in the current conflict.

I posted the above link in another thread earlier today. It would seem to be relevant here too.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 06:13 PM

Hitler was not elected to a majority, as far as I recollect - he was appointed as a result of cajoling/bullying a weak old sick man.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 09:55 AM

Bush Hitler Hezbollah Israelis...who doesn't belong in this group?
Hitler...Hitler was appointed, by Hindenberg as a bribe to cease creating violent actions in Germany, though yes, his party had seats in the German government. He merely took over from there.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: flattop
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 09:01 AM

Given that no one on this thread is being bombed or shot at, yet we have disturbed and excited reactions, why should anyone truly threatened be forgiving and levelheaded?

Bush, Hitler, Hezbollah members, and Israelis have all won free and fair elections.

Yet, changing technology, again, makes the situation like none other. Israelis can no longer murder and mutilate a disproportionate number of Arab children, under some vague justification that Germans did the same to them on a different continent over a half century ago, without disturbing sounds and pictures being flashed around the world on cell phones and web cams.

With more people getting angry, the situation is likely to get worse and continue for a long time. Hitler's murderous ways didn't win in the end either.

The U.S. is also supplying detailed satellite pictures to the Israelis. Another technological twist.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 07:58 AM

A very interesting viewpoint from a well-respected journalist here :
Seems to tell a much fuller version of the story than we have been getting.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: ard mhacha
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 04:25 AM

Foolstroupe, Correct in every detail.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 07:32 PM

"TRUE, making the point that Hezbollah is in violation of international law, and committing war crimes."

And Israel is not, especially when murdering UN observers in well known and marked positions, and deliberately targeting ambulances bearing red crosses? They BOTH are doing the same 'illegal acts' (and the USA is showing partisanship!) - and Israel is still squatting on territory 'stolen' as a a result of 'conquest' - oh, sorry, YWH told them they could have it!

"packed full of ball bearings for maximum human killing effect ... these rockets are not made to specifications on knocking out a military target."

Did a damn effective job when they finally lobbed one in that group of troops (a military target!) though (as i said, a 'random' weapon!)... and I wasn't aware that shrapnel was a prohibited munition (frag grenades and mortars would be illegal then, wouldn't they?) - almost every anti-personnel weapon (that does not use a bullet) uses that. Unless you just mean that only 'bloody big explosions' are legal - which is what the guided 500 pound + bombs are for - knocking out physical structures.


"You have NOT addressed the stated point ( by the UN observer) that the Hezbollah forces are using such as human shields, and thus bear the guilt THEMSLVES for any civilian casualties."

I've not seen any 'credible evidence' that ambulances are being used for weapon carrying - that long term Israeli claim was discussed here ages ago, and jOhn who had carried such weapons said that the pictures submitted as 'proof' didn't look like the real things anyway! - and I HAVE seen many times the footage of the neat hole in the centre of the red cross on the top of both ambulances...

And the Israelis have been kidnapping civilians for years - and even now are holding as prisoners freely elected (in an acknowledged 'honest election') as members of a parliament - is not THAT illegal?

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:42 PM

Lively discussion, isn't it?

Flattop makes an interesting comment about the changes in military hardware.

Guys, I think both the Iranians AND the Israelis (and Hezbollah and Hamas and the Saudis and the Bush administration)...all have fallen into the same egocentric error. They think God is on their side, and they think (either secretly or openly) that they are God's chosen people.

Such thoughts lead to nothing good for anyone.

I would be happy to talk to first, a rabbi, second, an imam...then compare notes and see who is less prejudiced than the other...but that would depend on which rabbi or imam I talked to, obviously. I'm sure they're not all identical.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: number 6
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 08:41 AM

Foolestroupe ... I was requesting credible facts from you in regards to your statement .. this current war going on does not in any way relate or have facts backing up your statement.

"Currently (and also for many years) they are working on destroying everybody, (and everything) Muslims, Christians, etc in Lebanon, and Gaza..."

In regards to your post informing us of the Hazbollah rockets you failed to mention that they are packed full of ball bearings for maximun human killing effect ... these rockes are not made to specifications on knocking out a military target.

The 'Chosen People' line and is definately being taken out of context here.

Guest ... if the Hezbollah had the weaponary ... Tel Aviv would look like Tokyo in August of 1945.

BTW ... no one picked up on my mistake in the above thread (07 Aug 06 - 01:20 AM ) ... I meant Nazerath, not Damascus.

sIx (not posting anymore to these current mideast conflict threads, is the bitterness that arises worth it here in the Mudcat)

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 07:13 AM

"BTW, the long range weapons (unguided rockets) that the Hizbullah are using are as accurate as the WWII V1 & V2 weapons, largely random (basically big dangerous fireworks) [in fact many are just copies of the WWII Russian ones] - light blue touch paper and stand back, and hope it hits something of military value. "

TRUE, making the point that Hezbollah is in violation of international law, and committing war crimes.


"Which only makes the actions of the Israeli military, who can easily visually guide their weapons precisely on to ambulances (right in the centre of the red cross on the roof!) and precisely known UN positions, etc, even more relatively reprehensible"

You have NOT addressed the stated point ( by the UN observer) that the Hezbollah forces are using such as human shields, and thus bear the guilt THEMSLVES for any civilian casualties.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 06:03 AM

"I suggest you should watch other news coverages "

I don't watch just US media, unlike some here. I watch about a dozen or more different international news coverages, as well as the local Aussie ones - SBS has direct feeds from most world language groups - you don't need to understand the languages completely to get the gist of most of the stories. Many of the stories on the local channels in English, just use fragments of the longer pictorials that are run in full on foreign language channels.



"ignorant tripe about Israel/Zionist Nazis"

Actions speak louder than words. Only the simple minded would say that Israel/Zionists are Nazis - but 'ye shall know them by their actions', a wise man once said.



"I'm more than willing to see any credible truth."

You have rejected everything so far put forward that reflects against your prejudices. So what would YOU accept then?

The Arab League was criticising Hizbullah at first for starting the mess. (For the moment, we'll ignore the murdering of civilians and bulldozing of houses in Gaza...) Now the Arab League is criticising Israel for 'excessive force'.

Historians will look back and quote this time as when the US lost world leadership to China.

A previous US president froze munitions deliveries until Israel stopped hostilities, which resulted in a very short offensive - why has George not done the same? The US is on the back foot in Iraq, and even Afghanistan. China outsmarted the USA by bringing the UN resolution about Israel's behaviour - the US veto (and dragging along 'allies' who have the tiger by the tail, and cannot let go!) is all that protected Israel.


BTW, the long range weapons (unguided rockets) that the Hizbullah are using are as accurate as the WWII V1 & V2 weapons, largely random (basically big dangerous fireworks) [in fact many are just copies of the WWII Russian ones] - light blue touch paper and stand back, and hope it hits something of military value. Which only makes the actions of the Israeli military, who can easily visually guide their weapons precisely on to ambulances (right in the centre of the red cross on the roof!) and precisely known UN positions, etc, even more relatively reprehensible.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 05:42 AM

"Chosen People." A dangerous concept that is causing untold misery in the Middle East.

I watched on BBCTV news as Lebanese who have had to flee their country joined Christians to march in a celebration in Damascus yesterday, and sang Hezbollah songs.

Israel may destroy Hezbollah as a viable force, but they are only guaranteeing that similar groups, born of despair and frustration, will rise to replace them and be even stronger.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: ard mhacha
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 04:16 AM

As one Lebbanon government offical remarked , "What Lebanon?, the country is in ruins", US WMDs are really big bombs.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 02:25 AM

http://news.yahoo.com/photo/060803/481/0d4bf4975624426492174d021ada116f&g=events/wl/080601mideast;_ylt=AnFfcQZNXNyvOPMSkWlBs5EUewgF;_ylu=X3oDMTA3bGk2OHYzBHNlYwN0bXA

Beirut before and after Israel's peacemongering. They're turning the city into a Warsaw ghetto.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: number 6
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 01:22 AM

"Played THAT game before! - nothing I can say will be accepted by you as 'credible proof'..."

... I'm more than willing to see any credible truth.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: number 6
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 01:20 AM

For LH and Foolsetroupe any comparison of Israel to Nazi Germany is unfounded ... In Nazi Germani, Jews were not people, they were not allowed to have businesses, go to universities, let alone hold any public office or government seat .. well, you know the story, In Israel there are Christian, Muslim citizens ... Arab Israelis hold elected seats in the goverment, have businesses, goto universities. There are Arab Israelis in the army, in fact many of the units in the Gaza are Israeli Arabs ... they are protecting their homeland too ... in fact there are Arab Israelis casualties as a result of Hezbollah rockets hitting Damascaus, a city mainly populated by Arabs and Christians.

Foolestroupe ... I suggest you should watch other news coverages .. it is tragic there are a lot of innocent casualties in this war ... Lebanese and Israeli ... as I mentioned previously I wish Both sides would pull back. But with all this ignorant tripe about Israel/Zionist Nazis I have to argue back.

sIx

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: michaelr
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 01:16 AM

Little Hawk has offered the most intelligent analysis seen here so far.

Fact is, all sides in this are dirty. All the fighters whipped into a frenzy by religious demagogues, and the innocent pay the price. It is a disgusting spectacle - even more disgusting than what the Bush cabal is doing here at home.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 01:11 AM

'show me credible proof man.'

Played THAT game before! - nothing I can say will be accepted by you as 'credible proof'...

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 01:09 AM

"that is absolute crap"

Perhaps I should stop watching the news...

Dozens of Israelis dead, hundreds (thousands, depending on how far back you look) of 'neighbours' dead...

The Israelis are definitely winning the 'war of attrition'...

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: number 6
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 01:05 AM

"Ad hominen attacks prove that you KNOW you have lost the argument."

I havent lost anything ... show me credible proof man.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 01:05 AM

PPS it's bloody Winter! overcast as usual...

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: number 6
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 01:03 AM

Take a shower Foolestroupe ... cool down man .... that is absolute crap.

Totally lacking in any credibility at all .... ignorant paranoia, fear. Dangerous rhetoric is what it is.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 01:02 AM

"that's not the usual 'you' speaking there ... what, to much sun and drinkin' a bit too much Foster's today?? :)"

Ad hominen attacks prove that you KNOW you have lost the argument.

PS can't stand 'Fosters'

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 01:00 AM

Currently (and also for many years) they are working on destroying everybody, (and everything) Muslims, Christians, etc in Lebanon, and Gaza...

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:59 AM

I don't know why I bother, but once more into the breech.
Jewish Chosen-ess has nothing to do with religious, racial or ethnic superiority, unlike Naziism and Master Race which had everything to do with racial and ethnic superiority.
Zionists, for the most part, from its inception were not religious zealots; contrariwise they were largely what we now call "ethnic Jews";    Theodor Herzl, the founder of modern Zionism, was such a person.
Now, whether one is a believer of any religion, an athiest, or an agnostic, the concept is understandable, if one choses to learn. Or one can choose not to educate oneself, and ignorantly spout poppycock.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: number 6
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:58 AM

Foolestroupe ...that's not the usual 'you' speaking there ... what, to much sun and drinkin' a bit too much Foster's today?? :)

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: number 6
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:52 AM

Show me proof of the mandate or any credible evidence of the Jews/Israelis/Zionist wanting to destroy all Muslims.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:49 AM

"Jews/Israelis/Zionists don't want to extermidate Muslims"

Bzzzzt!

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:48 AM

"regardless of beleif, or non beleif it certainly wouldn't hurt to understand"

I was being satirical - I do understand only too well - as my other comments demonstrate!

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: number 6
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:47 AM

Jews/Israelis/Zionists don't want to extermidate Muslims.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:45 AM

"If ignorance is bliss"

Ah! that's why YOU can't understand that the Iranian Mullahs also believe exactly that same thing - that they are ALSO God's chosen people and that is why they must exterminate the Jews!

Fascist viewpoint too!

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: number 6
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:41 AM

"Perhaps, as an atheist, I don't WANT to 'understand'"

regardless of beleif, or non beleif it certainly wouldn't hurt to understand .... that's the problem, people don't want to understand ... ah, the bliss of ignorance.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:38 AM

"even an atheist could understand that concept, even if they did not believe in it."

You keep missing my point because of your narrow mindedness engendered by 'Religious Training' (brainwashing, so that you cannot think outside the box you are trapped in) - ANY philosophy (whether promoted by Religion or not) that claims a superiority of one group or another is largely indistinguishable to students of history from Fascism. Focusing on simple superficial external factors like uniforms, flags, etc, overlooks the results of their actions, as well as their actions themselves, which many wise religious leaders have preached about as being more important that the simple externals eg, "wolves in sheep's clothing".

The Zionists in the 1930s were a bunch of fanatical religious terrorist zealots - just like the Germans, the Italians, and the Japanese - they HAVE however,achieved their political aims - expulsion of .

Fanaticism consists of redoubling your efforts when you have achieved or forgotten your original aims.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:36 AM

Nice chatting with you, Foolstroupe. If ignorance is bliss, you are the happiest Foolstroupe in the world. Perhaps I'll ignore you future ignorant comments and let you keep your head in the ground like the ostriches of your continent. :-] back at ya.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:27 AM

"obviously don't understand the Jewish concept of 'Chosen People' either. If you did you would not havemade such a glib dismissal of my comment."

Perhaps, as an atheist, I don't WANT to 'understand' :-)

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:24 AM

Same response Foolstroupe; even an atheist could understand that concept, even if they did not believe in it.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:23 AM

"comparing the psychological assumptions of victimhood and "master race/chosen people" that lie behind the policy, and I find them very similar."

Yep.

"I also find the military doctrine very similar, as regards general tactical approach to campaigning."

Yep.

Subject: RE: BS: An interesting viewpoint on Lebanon
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:18 AM

I watch a lot of SBS & DW TV news ...

"Please show me the trains going to the gas chambers and concentration camps"

With air supremacy, don't need that. Just flatten everything, including ambulances and fruit pickers

"show me the crescents on the garments of muslims or tattoos on their arms."

Don't need that - Israeli soldiers going to the front said interviewed said "there are no innocent civilians in Lebanon, there are only Hizbulla" - that means you can shoot up the UN too btw.

"Show me gangs of Jews rampaging through the streets of Tel Aviv destroying Arab homes and businesses, and just beating them up for the fun of it. "

Don't need that, with an Israeli Govt policy of destroying all Lebanon infrastructure, and air supremacy.

Just watch the news channels outside of 7, 9, 10 (Aussie commercial channels) and ch 2 (ABC must give a 'balanced picture' or the Aussie Govt howls if the 'balanced picture' differs from the Govt's view)


"Seen from externally, such mental differences are a matter of 'faith'."

Oh, I should have said - 'from an aethist external view'.