Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Tootler
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 06:41 PM

Nick,

Was that Thirsk last Thursday?

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Nick
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 07:10 PM

It sure was - did I remember it about right?

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Tootler
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 07:28 AM

Yes you did. He was right behind me and I was aware of the noise.

The guy in the corner by the door was singing when he came in and I was next. I was aware of the noise, had a quick look round saw what it was about and carried on. He was not actually too obtrusive and, as you said did not stay long.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: GUEST,I am the traditional voice of england
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 08:09 AM

Somebody started singing a pop song and playing a guitar the other night at our exclusive elite beard club. I thought that it was very rude. It wasn't even in G!

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Tyke
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 10:05 PM

Jimmy! Come on mate put them straight I know that you are reading this thread and having a chuckle. It was you! You were the singer in question and it was you who told me about the thread two weeks ago down at the Abby Folk Night in Leeds was it not? Until then had no idea that I was the one playing Guitar in The Endeavour, or indeed that the session I was playing in was the one, which so offended Nick!

As far as I was concerned I was sitting down and managing to play along "with one of the finest Piano Accordionists in England" I Quote The Tanerhill Weavers and what they said about him back in 1982 in Italy a the Week before he toured Italy with Iona. I was also playing along with one of the best MC I have ever heard. The only reason that I have heard his work as an MC was that I was doing some research in the Radio Leeds Sound Archives, for Folk on the Night Network; I came across a real of Leeds Own Folk a program recorded around 1963 in the Grove Folk. The programme featured Lou Killen and the legendary MC was Jim Potter. Jim Potter is also a very fine performer and folk song collector in his own right.

Jimmy, and you can quote me Jimmy, has a wonderful voice and was one of my regular singers who I would always find a spot for when I had the honour of being the MC at the Grove Folk Club a few years. Jimmy earn as far as I was concerned the right to finishing one of the singers nights at the Grove and proving my judgement to be correct did a fine job. Jimmy, who still I believe sings down at the Grove in Leeds and at the Abbey in Newly Lane in Leeds on a Tuesday Night, has got better over the years. I say believe because for the last few years, although I am still for now based in Leeds, been a regular in the Endeavour in Whitby most weekends. The Endeavour has a Folk Night on a Saturday all through the year. I go to as often as possible! It has a tradition of every one joining in to support were necessary other singers and musicians over the Noise at the bar. It is a PUB people go in there to have a drink and a chat and a good time. It is defiantly not a sit down don't smoke don't speak or enjoy yourself Folk Club. Not that there is anything wrong with that but as an introduction to Folk it is not great. The FILO Folk night, once a month, or the Micklefield Folk Club and The Robin Hoods Bay Folk Club cater for those who like myself sometimes wish to sing in a nice quiet room on a Friday or Saturday night. The Endeavour Session, unlike a lot of purely Musicians Sessions, gives way to both songs and tunes whilst allowing others to join in and support or try to support others. Request from the Singers or Musician to perform a solo of course are respected. This was not the case with our Jimmy. But who really wants to sit there for two or three hours to sing or play one song? Whilst super stars flit from one singer around to another singing there Whitby song of the year. You must have heard the Melodeon session hoppers playing Follow The Plough! Hopping from pub to pub so that as one has left after his performance yet another arrives to play Follow The Plough with varying degrees of competency that could not be blamed on the 16 morons with there Boron's.

But if you like I'll apologise for four old friends getting together and spontaneously supporting each other and having a good time in Whitby Folk Week and upsetting the Folk Police. However you may have noticed Nick that I have omitted the name of the Piano Accordionist. The reason is that you know his name he has featured in at least one of your contributions to the Mudcat Forum before. I hope that your vilification of a Booked Guest at Whitby Folk Week has nothing to do with other matters. The reason that I will not be signing a record contract with anyone, including Mr Tubular Bells, Sir Richard Branson, or Dave Bulmer without letting my solicitor read it and approves it! Have nothing to do with the fact that Dave Bummer is great piano accordion player.

For those who remember Jim Potter I am pleased to say that I have been invited by Brian Senior to do a spot at The Holbeck Moor Mummers Christmas Bash down at the Grove in Leeds on the 22nd of December 2006 and Jim Potter will be there.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Nick
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 12:54 PM

Tyke, I wasn't offended in the least.

Neither did I have any issue with a bunch of friends playing together; neither did I have any issue with the quality of music that was being played; neither did I have a problem that it was late in the evening, that it was noisy etc etc; neither do I doubt that I was in the company of greatness as you have established your street cred in your post way past anything that could be asked for.

And I'm sure that Jimmy - you know him I don't - was happy as a lark about the whole thing (weirdly the comment he made to me after I spoke to him after he sang, which I'm sure he will remember, suggested he was less appreciative than you think - but time changes things and our memories may be different)

It still doesn't much affect my view that changing the time, key etc when someone is singing an unaccompanied song is a little thoughtless whoever you are and whatever the circumstances.

There was a chap sitting two or three along from 'Jimmy' who played a guitar who managed to sing a play a song without the same level of interruption.

It was late in the evening and you were having fun and it was a song you knew so why not?

I'll say hello next time I see you in Whitby or around

Get Jimmy to post his thoughts if he is viewing this with amusement

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: cujimmy
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 03:50 PM

Hello Nick, I did come accross this thread a few weeks ago and wasn't sure how to answer as I thought the issue had been taken well out of proportion. My Folk Festival phylosophy is "sing songs, drink beer and be friendly",- and I do know Jim Potter and Tyke quite well from The Grove Folk Club and so it wasn't the first time either of them have accompanied me in such a manner while singing a song. So when they joined in along with the accordian player (whom I do't know) although it mixed me up and drowned me out a bit, I didn't take it too seriously. Indeed over the next hour or so they invited me to join in with songs that they started.

    I have been in sessions where someone had acted inapropriately or been ignorant and I would certainly tell someone off in such circumstances.

    On the evening in question myself and my buddy Andrew had been singinging in the Endeavour since about 7pm and we had had a great time. Various folkies had drifted in, sang a song and then left again. Then later on the pub became very noisey with people comming in for a late drink as The Endeavour stayed open longer than some of the other pubs. So the people who had come in for a late bevvy were very loud and it was difficult to sing above the noise. So when Jim, Tyke and Accordianist came in it was kind of nice to see them - but I knew then in my heart, and I thought to my self - "it's a session Jim, but not as we know it". So I was a bit miffed that our singing was being drowned out by the noisey regular costomers.

    So I had another pint or two, went back to the B&B, had a guid sleep, breakfast, then started all over again the following afternoon.

    I enjoyed Whitby like every other year, and would have forgotten about that night in the Endeavour if I hadn't come accross this thread - I hope this clears things up a bit Nick.

Regards - jimmy

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Tyke
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 04:52 PM

No problems Nick and thank you yes it is always nice to see friends especially in Whitby Folk Week. In fact the way you have described the seating arrangements I have doubts that we are talking about the same session. That Jimmy is great bloke I wish I could sing half as well as the man himself and that's when he P****D and forgets the words. I'm not sure he was that pleased having to stay sober to finish that night at the Grove.

His voice certainly cuts through the noisy in a room with its sweetness. Last week when I took someone along to the Abbey I was both pleased and disappointed that Jimmy was on his feet singing, (well it's hard to tell with Jimmy if you can't see the chair), The disappointment was because we had not been able to sit down and settle to hear the start of his song. I blame the woman with large breasts and a Low cut neckline with that the Landlord took his time serving! Took his time! I thought he was trying to sell her double gazing and not pint. The pleasure was listening to the room quieten as his dulcet tones filled the room. Not a bad sound for my friend a new bee to Folk to hear as an introduction to Folk in fact the whole night was lively and positive. I apologise to Jimmy if I have given the impression that he is over fond of the Drink that fact is that I have never noticed him fall off a bar stool yet. Then again as I said it is hard to tell :-)

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: cujimmy
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 05:22 PM

Hold on Tyke, I'm never as think as you drunk i am you know, except for yon night a few years ago when I couldn't sing for laughing, what on earth was I laughing at again - cant remember. Anyway thanks for the compliment. I am still a regular at The Grove Folk Club which is more popular now than ever I have known it, there were a lot of younger people there last week, some of whom were given extended floor spots, Jim Potter who was there too.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: dozy rozy
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 05:49 PM

EVERYBODY SHUT UP AND LISTEN WHILST I SING OR I'LL THROW MY TEDDY OUT OF THE PRAM.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: GUEST,JAKintheUSA
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 06:13 PM

I just stumbled upon this thread myself and was immediately reminded of an incident that occurred earlier this year. Every February, a friend hosts an acoustic open-house, opening his home to any and all musicians who end up song-swapping and jamming in every corner of the house. Over the years, rooms seem to adopt one characteristic or another...bluegrass in one, Cajun/Zydeco in the kitchen, Celtic up the stairs, etc. One room always tends to '60s and '70s folk/folk-rock/rock with the participants trading off songs equitably and appreciatively. However last year, some Paul Stuckey wannabee planted himself in the middle of the room with a music stand and a stack of Weavers/Kingston Trio, etc. songs which he plowed through one after another without letting anyone else get a note in edgewise. What is ususally the most popular room at the event devolved into a one-man jam consisting soley of Mr. Folkie, oblivious to the fact that he'd chased everyone else away. Not that there's anything wrong with that genre, but, sheesh, give someone else a chance.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 07:14 PM

Maybe not the rudest ever, but some new folk with some great singing and guitar playing between them. We listen in rapt admiration, but they talk all through my songs! Do I throw my Teddy out of the pram, or tell them to shut the hell up and risk them not coming back?

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Tyke
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 07:34 PM

It was a Teddy making that Buzzing Noise on the Campsite Dozy Rozy! Soldier Boy told me it was your Rabbit the little liar. Just goes to show you can't believe every thing you hear. All I can say is don't turn it on in a session or we will never live it down. How ever you can switch your Mobile Phone to Vibrate in a session as long as you answer it outside the Pub.

On second thoughts if you turn it on and stick your err …. Teddy in you ear whilst singing that should make the whole pub go quite.

But isn't Jimmy great he can even write with Scotch accent!

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 07:37 PM

Have only just re-visited this thread and looking for the point I would like to make is a bit like climbing Everest, so I'll assume it hasn't been covered.
We have several singing week-ends and festivals here in the West of Ireland and over the last few years a number of UK visitors have taken to singing along with the solo singer (not just choruses, but the verses). I noticed it beginning to happen when we lived in England, but I hoped it was a passing fad.
When he was performing round the English clubs Walter Pardon was forced to abandon at least two of his songs because this thoughtlessness always put him off.
Is this common in the UK and do you just ship the few who persist in this arrogant display of bad manners over here to get them out of the way?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Tyke
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 08:03 PM

Now that a thought Jim is there an uninhabited little Island off the west coast we could re name U Sing Around to attract them. I think Bernie Parry has lost count of how many times he has been told he was singing Man of The Earth wrongly and he wrote it.

In Whitby we have not one but two pubs set aside for people who don't like music and just want to talk. I'm not certain how well this scheme is working but most of the time even during Folk Week you can get a seat and have a quiet think as long as it's not about music.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 08:35 PM

"do you just ship the few who persist in this arrogant display of bad manners over here to get them out of the way? "

They had to stop shipping them to Australia mate!

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: dozy rozy
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 09:47 AM

Dear Tyke,
The noises you heard were indeed the buzzing of a rabbit.Thankfully it wasn't mine, but belonged to soldierboy himself.He calls it Jessica.
The only other noise of any noticeable volume was the constant sound of a fat-laden frying pan, coming I believe from your end of the campsite.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: MMario
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 10:10 AM

I'm almost compulsive about singing along with people -- but I do try to watch and see if it's okay - and in new venues either don't indulge myself or try to keep it very quiet. (it really is hard sometimes to not join in.)

But one of the nicest feelings is to be *mouthing* the words - and have the performer look at you, smile and nod encouragement to join in. Even better is when they come up to you after a performance and gently chide you for not joining in.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: BB
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 02:40 PM

'Choruses' are for joining in with - that's why they're called 'choruses'. Verses are not, although there do seem to be a very few songs which have become communally held - 'Adieu Sweet Lovely Nancy', 'Spencer the Rover' come immediately to mind, and maybe the odd first verse of some songs. But, by and large, I would consider it rude to join in with verses, and it seems to me to be a sure way of 'standardising' songs, rather than letting them evolve differently with the different people singing them. That would be sad.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 02:53 PM

I was at a club once when somebody joined in with a different version - and came along at the end of the evening and proudly claimed her version to be better than the singer's
There's nowt as queer as fowk.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 05:33 PM

Jim - I suspect that some of the 'joining in' that is considered to be rude in Ireland is an expression of great camaradarie in parts of England. The first time I visited the west of Ireland I made the mistake of singing along with the chorus of a song with which I was familiar with great pleasure because that is how it is done where I live. Imagine my embarrassment at finding I was the only person in the room doing so. I stopped after verse 2!

But don't condemn people for not knowing the rules instantly. Many of the singers from your neck of the woods visit England and if they don't enjoy the wonderful power of a room of sympathetic people singing with them, then they have been kind and considerate enough not to show (it in my presence), so how could I have been expected to know that they had different rules at home?. OK - NOW I know. I wait to see if other people sing the chorus before joining in, and I know not to sing along with the verses, even if I have heard the same song 10 times in a weekend. It is good discipline - it encourages respect for both the singer and the song and I'm often glad that I have listened closely, rather than joining in automatically. But when I'm singing myself in such company I very much miss having people express their enjoyment of a song by adding their voice to mine.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: GUEST,GrahamP
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 10:35 AM

Maybe not the worst ever, but it happened to me this week - you know who you are! In a nutshell, people jumping in with a song in a singaround situation, when it's clearly not their 'turn'.

Once again (see above), I find it astounding (maybe I shouldn't) that some of the worst perpetrators of session/singaround rudeness are often seasoned participants in what 'catter John J charmingly calls the 'Circle of Death', and the most likely to be offended if they themselves were to be similarly treated.

Personally I couldn't give a tinker's cus, as I prefer the spontaneity of the 'session'-type format anyway, but this was not such a case. I did catch the eye of a couple of the others present and just smiled, with a shake of the head!

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 12:08 PM

Again not the worst example, but:

I normally go to (what I call) sessions (where everyone joins in together if they can or want to) - or singarounds/playarounds (where everyone takes it in turn to play and/or sing on their own). These are what I'm used to.

But a week or so back I went to what seemed to be a combination of the two: it was a round-the-room singaround/playaround, but there were a few people there (guitarists mainly) who seemed to join in with everything everybody else was doing, even when someone was singing unaccompanied. This seemed to be the normal case, and nobody seemed to mind. I found it a bit odd though, and found it difficult not to wish they would shut up when I was playing. I refrained from saying anything though, because this was apparently how they do things there, and who was I to argue? Didn't like it though.

Is this normal in the experience of others? It was a first for me. Does anyone think it's better than the two scenarios I described above?

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 12:11 PM

"(guitarists mainly)" - Now there's a big surprise.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: BB
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 02:43 PM

The idea of joining in with singers, in particular, and especially if they choose to sing unaccompanied, is definitely not my cup of tea, and unless stated as the norm, or invited, is just plain rude, IMO. However, someone locally has started a few song and music sessions recently which are intended to be, as he puts it, "free-for-alls", and this, according to him, has got some people playing who have never done so in public before. I haven't been in a position to attend any of these sessions yet, and I'm not sure that I want to, but maybe he's right, and that sort of freedom has its place in encouraging some people to start performing. At what sort of standard is another question!

Barbara

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Scrump
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 10:46 AM

I wasn't even playing when I fell out (permanently so far) with an old friend at a session. Another guy was doing a very sensitive, slow solo on the fiddle. My friend (drop taken) joined in, "improvising" loudly with respect to none of tempo, rhytm nor melodic structure. I asked him to stop, he threw a huge wobbly that ended up with him threatening to hit me. That was over a year ago, I haven't seen him since

It sounds as if it's no great loss. Who needs a "friend" like that?

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Midchuck
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 11:07 AM

Coming in on an instrument when someone starts a song unaccompanied (unless it's a wide-open singalong session, not a circle) is the act of a dickhead.

(I've done it myself, but I was young when I did it.)

Peter.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Scrump
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 11:44 AM

The problem I had with the gathering I mentioned above is that it seemed to be neither a proper session (all join in) nor a sing/playaround (take it in turns and do your thing separately), but a cross between the two - a sing/playaround where some (but not all)people join in with others. I wasn't sure of the etiquette so I didn't say anything to them, as it seemed to be accepted by all the regulars. I just found it a bit off-putting myself, when playing/singing at my turn. I guess I could have reciprocated but I didn't want to, as it didn't seem right to me.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 07:22 PM

Sitting next to a "well-respected singer" who forgot her words; I (gently I thought) supplied the missing words only to be told to "shut up - you're putting me off", followed by "one singer, one Song". I'll not be helping her in future, let her stew in her own juice!