BS: Something Bad is about to Happen

Subject: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 01:59 PM

http://www.freemarketnews.com/Analysis/64/6044/jim.asp?wid=64&nid=6044

An article about the govt's new torture bill. You can do something to stop it.

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 02:27 PM

Americans knew what kind of person Bush was when they put him in power. Overthrow the bastard and be done with it. But stop acting surprised. There is nothing at all surprising about your members of Congress. YOU voted for them. Live with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 03:12 PM

Get real. Of course they do all that.

One day you'll notice the absence of fairies at the bottom of your garden.

Instead of pissing about worrying about the unseen government that goes on, do something about the perfectly visible. Get some health cover for all those people who can't afford it . Get rid of capital punishment. Do something about all those musicians who have contributed so much to world culture, and live and die in poverty.

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 04:22 PM

GUEST, yours is another of those blanket condemnations that don't reflect the real world, and qualifies as meaningless pique on your part. "YOU voter for them. Live with it."

I did not vote for George W. Bush. And whereas Congress in general is doing a lousy job, the senators and congressional representative that I did vot for are doing a pretty damned good job. Give or take less than one percentage point, half of the American voters did not vote for Bush and his regime. In fact, in 2000, Gore won the popular vote and the presidency was given to Bush by a questionable electoral vote and a conservative Supreme Court. The 2004 election also has some highly questionable numbers But in any case, it was damned close.

Get real.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 05:45 PM

Surely it's more like three out of four adult American did not vote for Bush, when you allow for the ones who didn't vote at all, either because they didn't feel like voting or because they'd had their vote filched from them, one way or another.

The interesting thing is, when a government becomes unpopular, the proportion of people who will admit voting it into power goes through the floor. I imagine that a poll today asking Americans whom they voted for Bush would come up with a figure that, on the face of it, would indicate that he went down to a humilating defeat. Ain't hindsight wonderful?

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Amos
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 08:12 PM

See also this little essay on the corruption of habea corpus by our illiterate representatives:

Keep The Great Write Live.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 08:49 PM

Yeah, this bill oughta just be called waht it is: The Torture Bill!!!

And screw McCain... He rolled over like a cheap bus station prostitude... Shame on him and the other two flunkies who said they didn't want the US to go in this direction...

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 08:50 PM

McCain's always been a fraud.

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 10:55 PM

McCain and his gang of 2 pretended to argue against torture and secret prisons as a way of "gettng a compromise"

which as I think Amos sort of put it.

"Bush took half a turd off a clean table while the clean table interest group declared a victory."

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Old Guy
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 11:32 PM

How does the "torture" bill compare with the goings on in other countries?

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Old Guy
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 01:20 PM

According to Bobert, Bush is the devil and Hugo is da man:

THE RIGHT TO HUMANE TREATMENT

OAS/Inter-American Commission on Human Rights

..With respect to the right to humane treatment, the Commission observes that the worsening of the institutional conflict in Venezuela has spilled over into acts of violence that have led to violations both of the right to life, as described, and of the right to humane treatment. As regards the latter right, the Commission notes a series of aspects of particular concern. First, the high number of cases of torture and of cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment practiced by the state security forces. Second, the failure of the competent state organs to do their duty to investigate complaints on these cases and to punish those responsible, who usually remain unpunished. The latter encourages the reiteration of such conduct and the absence of effective procedures to monitor respect for the physical integrity of persons detained at civilian and military detention centers...

http://www.venezuelapersecucionytortura.com/tortura.htm

Venezuela: Fear for safety/death threats/unlawful detention/torture and ill-treatment

Venezuela troops 'used torture'

Nerves Frayed in Venezuela After Killings of Chávez Opponents

VENEZUELA The silent cry:
gross human rights violations against children

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 01:34 PM

It's normal for scoundrels to excuse themselves by comparing themselves to other scoundrels somewhere else, isn't it, Old Guy?

Keep this in mind: the only torture that you and those near you need ever fear is that practiced by your own people in your own land. What abuses the Chinese or the Somalians or someone else are practicing on tbeir people in some far distant places is not a direct threat to you. What your own government is doing could well be.

The Chinese won't arrest your neighbour and torture him. Your own government might.

Freedom is secured by eternal vigilance AT HOME, buddy....on the homefront. A lot of Germans forgot all about that in 1933-45, because they were so fixated on the evils that supposedly existed in other places...places they were busy attacking and invading. They paid a terrible price for not securing freedom at home, where it counts.

That's exactly what's going on now in the USA. Your liberty and freedom is being destroyed, piece by piece, in the name of "national security".

Everyone else in the world can see it plainly. Why the hell can't so many of you?

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 01:36 PM

Yeah, John McCain was the definite shill in this scam. He's supposed to be opposed to torture but he loves it.

http://www.usvetdsp.com/mcianhro.htm

Read his POW timeline. His daddy was head of the navy in Europe when John was shot down, so John got preferential treatment. He even committed acts of treason, admitted to by himself. He's no hero. And now he's proving himself to be a one-world-govt whore. You peaceniks who think one-world govt is the way to go need to give up your la-dee-dah ideas about utopia. Look up the word 'dystopian' for a more accurate idea of what McCain and Nader and all the other regulatory freaks have in store for you. The future is Mao's flower growing out of the barrel of a gun, only YOU won't have the gun.

And the pissy Brits who think this is an American problem that WE need to solve are right. Problem is, the Brits have been slaves for so long they've forgotten that there are problems with wresting a hijacked representative govt back from the gangsters who've hijacked it. The giants who gave the world the Magna Carta are now runts, ruled over by an insane skirt and her Nazi husband. So criticism from that quarter is not needed.

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Amos
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 01:40 PM

LA-dee-Dah, Guest!! Get an identity to communicate from, and your diatribes might carry more persuasion. Nothing nullifies a message as surely as noticing that it comes from a pusillanimous cipher.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 01:48 PM

Well and clearly put, Little Hawk!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 02:33 PM

Mr Bush = a gangster
Cherie and Tony = an insane piece of skirt and her Nazi husband

No political power wasn't conned out of you Americans. Half of you couldn't be shitted to vote. You have a free press and democratic process, and you don't use either. That simple.

Cherie is descended from one of the most respected Liverpool/Irish comic actors in England. Mr Blair isn't a gentleman, but he is what passes for one. We've had worse prime ministers, in living memory - unfortunately.

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: GUEST,amergin
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 03:05 PM

We do NOT have a "free press", we never really had one. It has always been owned by those with political and financial interests. Our press has been bought and paid for.

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 03:13 PM

"I did not vote for George W. Bush. And whereas Congress in general is doing a lousy job, the senators and congressional representative that I did vot for are doing a pretty damned good job."

Yippee. Your hands are clean. However, Bush is still in power. Suck it up, Don.

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 03:30 PM

Not bloody likely, GUEST. Bush is out in 2008, but I'm campaigning actively to make damned sure that the Right doesn't bung in some clone in his place. Suck it up? No flippin' way!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 04:47 PM

>>It's normal for scoundrels to excuse themselves by comparing themselves to other scoundrels somewhere else, isn't it, Old Guy?<<

LOL! Yep. That's been the GOP tactic since Bush came into power. Never accept blame but when forced to, make sure everyone accepts the same amount of blame. Where's the outcry? What's happened to America?

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Old Guy
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 05:30 PM

"Everyone else in the world can see it plainly. Why the hell can't so many of you?"

Hunh?

Now what would happen to LH if he was a citizen of Cuba or Venezuela ans spouted off such bullsit.

He would be begging to be sent to Guantanmo rather that the prisons of Cuba or Venezeula.

Santiago Valdeolla Pérez

A Cuban dissident, Santiago Valdeolla Pérez, used his own blood to write these messages while in prison. "The fatherland belongs to all of us" - "For Cuba it is time" - "Lets open the door"

"Long live the APPSC (The Assembly to Promote a Civil Society in Cuba) - "Long live a free and democratic Cuba"

The flag was sent to Marta Beatriz Roque, one of Cuba's best known dissident and a director of the APPSC.

Santiago Valdeolla is a pacifist [like Little Hawk] whose only crime is to ask for democratic changes in Cuba. He is 35 years old and is still in jail. In April of this year his mother, Gladys Perez, denounced that her son received a brutal beating while at the Taco Taco prison. In addition, the religious literature that he was keeping at his cell was removed; the food that his family had brought to him in the last visit was confiscated by the prison guards. A bucket that he had in his cell and that was used to carry water in order to bath, was also taken away by Castro's prison guards.

Gladys Perez also has another son, Emilio Leyva, who is currently at the Kilo 5 1/2 prison in Pinar del Rio...
...

Castro's thugs can run, but they can't hide.

Those criminals who are terrorizing peaceful dissidents in Cuba need to know that they will be identified and their names will be made public. And when Cuba is free, these thugs will have to respond for what they have done.

According to the Castro regime, these thugs are regular people who do these acts on their own and have no connection to the Cuban government. But that is another lie, as can be seen here in this photo taken by

international journalists during one of the 'actos de repudio' against Cuban dissident Vladimiro Roca.

Two of those yelling insults in front of Mr. Roca' home are clearly identified. Jesús Prieto Medina. Is a delegate to the so called 'Asamblea National del Poder Popular' (Cuba's National
Assembly) whose president is Ricardo Alarcon. This fascist thug is supposed to represent Pinar Del Rio.

He is also a member of other organizations that are part of Cuba's Communist Party.

This woman is Nidia Diana Martinez Pití. She is, believe it or not, director of the William Soler

Pediatric Hospital! She is also a member of the Cuban Federation of Women and a delegate to the

National Assembly. She was born in the city of Holguín.



Humberto Perugoria, a dissident who has been terrorized by these paid mobs has sent a list with the

name and addresses of many of those who have participated in these brutal acts against him and his

family. Click here to see the list





Read the letter from the young daughter of a political prisoner to dictator Castro Sahilí Navarro Alvarez is the daughter of Felix Navarro Rodríguez, a Cuban dissident who is currently in one of Castro's jail after being sentenced to 25 years in prison.

Click here to read the letter from this courageous young woman to the dictator that is keeping her father in jail. She quotes from Castro's letters when he was jailed during the Batista regime and the difference between the way Castro was treated after an armed attack against a government garrison and how he now treats those who peacefully oppose his regime.

Castro's deaths

Watch this video with Maria C. Werlau, President of the Free Society Project, Inc. and Dr. Armando Lagos director of The Cuban Archives who have been working to document all the victims caused by the Castro regime.   The video is in Spanish and is produced and directed by Eduardo A. Palmer.

Click here to see it Watch the video "The tortures of Castro"


During the Batista dictatorship, there were 11 prisons in Cuba. Now, as can be seen on the

above map, there are over 300! The entire island is surrounded by prisons!

The questions are: Why so many prisons in a country where everyone is supposed to be equal?

Why so many prisons in a country where the people are in charge?

Why so many prisons in a country that for 46 and a half years has been 'educating' the 'new man'

that is supposed to be like Che?

Why so many prisons in a country where 99.9999% of the people 'vote' in favor of the dictator for life?

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Old Guy
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 05:34 PM

Hey Little Hawk:

Here is where you go if you mouth off about Chavez in Venezuela:

Venezuela jails are worst in world

The United States-based human rights group, Human Rights Watch, says Venezuela's crumbling and overcrowded jails are the most violent in the world, where only the fittest survive.

The group says more than three-hundred-and-thirty people were murdered inside the prisons last year.

And Human Rights Watch says the violence appears to be dramatically increasing, with inmates making knives and other weapons to defend themselves.

Guns and hand grenades have also been discovered.

The Venezuelan prison authorities have admitted that they've virtually lost control of the twenty-six-thousand prison population.

The BBC South America correspondent says a slow justice system means the majority of inmates are still waiting trial.

From the newsroom of the BBC World Service

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 05:38 PM

Hmmmm.....Now I see where all the shit in last year's Christmas Goose went..................

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 06:20 PM

What do the conditions in Venezuela, Cuban, Mexican, Chinese, Turkish, Iranian, Uruguayan, Guatemalan, Costa Rican, Panamanian or Salvadorian jails have to do with the decline and fall of democracy in your OWN nation, Old Guy? Not too much...unless you consider it a sort of collateral damage of some kind.

You're ignoring the holes in your own boat while yelling..."Look! The Venezuelan boat is sinking!"

You might make a great dictator, Saddam-style, if ever given the chance. Just keep pointing the finger at someone else in a foreign land and deny all accountability at home.

How come the only places that have jails you complain about happen to be places on Bush's "enemies" list? There are plenty of American allies you could complain about too, in a similar fashion. Why don't you? Are you Blind in one eye?

Look, my friend, I am very, very, very glad I live in Canada where the jails are not so vicious as in America's enemies and many of America's political/economic satellites. I'm just lucky, that's all. So are you...but your luck is running out like sand out of an hourglass as the New World Order eviscerates your Constitution and your democracy.

Am I a pacifist? Sort of....but not necessarily. It depends on the situation. I'll fight when I'm attacked, depend upon that. I have not been attacked.

I'll tell you who has been attacked. Iraq. That's why they keep killing your soldiers over there, and they won't stop until your soldiers leave. YOU guys were the aggressors in 2003, not them. Your government is a lying, corrupt, corporate-bought institution that has lost its mind, and it's taking you straight down the road to a dictatorship and a possible world war.

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 06:58 PM

"Just keep pointing the finger at someone else in a foreign land and deny all accountability at home."

Gee, Little Hawk, couldn't that also be a pretty fair description of some guy who is currently residing in the White House? And a few of his friends as well?

It's amazing how many folks either have no knowledge of even fairly recent history, or refuse to believe it when ominous parallels become all too obvious (and many others point it out to them), and wander on through life careless, dumb, and happy while the world is crumbling around them. And they're usually the ones who wail the loudest when it hits the fan.

"Why didn't somebody warn me!??"   Well. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 07:50 PM

The old guys in Nazi Germany probably felt the same about their secret prisons of torture and executions as some old guys in America do now.

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 08:16 PM

Hey, Old Guy,

In your rebuttal to LH's initial post about giving up freedoms using other countries as worse violators you did nuthin' but ***prove*** LH's premise...

You really need to slow down and reread folks stuff before you go on the attack... You made a complete fool of yourself this time...

Kinda reminds me of a story an old black social activist preacher told me once... Yeah, I've told the story at least once over the eyars here in Mudville but it especially holds true for you, Oldster, after yer attempted rebuttal... The story goes like this:

There was a racist author who had published several books exposing the merits of keepin' the country segregated and he was invited to speak at a black college. He bagan his speach by sayin', "All you people are descendants of monkeys..." and then stood back from the podium as the black college kids jumped up and down and shook their fists and yelled and screamed at the speaker for his opening remarks...

When the shoutin' and gesturin' died down the speaker walked slowly to the podium and calmly said, "I rest me case" and walked out...

I mean no disrespect here but there does seem a similarity here to the way that you ***react*** to other folks ideas, experiences and opinions... LH probably didn't think he was layin' a trap for you bnut in your hast to fire back at what you percievced as an attack upon you hero, George Bush, you built your own trap and then stepped into it...

It doesn't need to be said but if you reread your own reaction I think you'd rather have thought what LH was trying to tell you thru before going into damage control...

You have rested your own case on this one, pal...

But I still loves you even if you are a reactionary protector of Bush...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 10:29 AM

My cartoon from the right wing point of view:

picture of liberals singing "we shall overcome" in front of the White House.

then
picture of Islamic terrorists singing "we shall come over"


_____________

Despite the leaked intel about our Iraq war making things worse (duh) right wingers would see the above cartoon as an accurate incapsulation of the situation.

Left wingers ( these labels are grossly inaccurate) would see the Bush/Rove fear campaign leaning on the klaxon bell of EMERGENCY

Both views fall short of improving the situation.


Don Hakman
the silenced cartoonist.

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Old Guy
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 11:00 AM

So if your rights are so badly compromised, why are you able to spout off bullshit that is not allowed in the countries you think are so righteous? Like Venezuela run by "you da man Chavez".

"I rest me (my) case"

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 11:17 AM

Ukrainian Canadian internment
In World War I, 8,579 male "aliens of enemy nationality" were interned, including 5,954 Austro-Hungarians, most of whom were probably ethnic Ukrainians. Many of these internees were used for forced labour in internment camps. See Ukrainian Canadian internment.

During World War II, Canada followed the U.S. lead in interning residents of Japanese and Italian ancestry. The Canadian government also interned citizens it deemed dangerous to national security. This included both fascists (including Canadians such as Adrien Arcand who had negotiated with Hitler to obtain positions in the government of Canada once Canada was conquered), Montreal mayor Camilien Houde (for denouncing conscription) and union organizers and other people deemed to be dangerous Communists. Such internment was made legal by the Defence of Canada Regulations, Section 21 of which read:

The Minister of Justice, if satisfied that, with a view to preventing any particular person from acting in a manner prejudicial to the public safety or the safety of the State, it is necessary to do so, may, notwithstanding anything in these regulations, make an order [...] directing that he be detained by virtue of an order made under this paragraph, be deemed to be in legal custody.
There were internment camps near Petawawa, Ontario; Kananaskis, Alberta;and Hull, Quebec.

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Amos
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 12:33 PM

One of the reasons war should be the very last resort, used only in extremes, is, as illustrated above and in the daily briefs from Washington currently, that people do such insane things when they get to use it as a justification. On the other hand, it gets folks to reveal their own true colors. The pretense of civilization falls away readily where it is only skin deep, revealing the bandersnatch, the Neanderthal, and the barbarian lurking within and begging for a chance to come out and wreak havoc against better humans than he.
Thus, Bush et al.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Old Guy
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 12:38 PM

It appears to me that we have more rights today than ever before.

The Supreme Court over rode the constitution on taking property for Eminent domain for non public purposes.

Bush wrote an executive order restoring the constitutional rights of land owners not having their property taken for non public use.

Executive Order: Protecting the Property Rights of the American People

By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, and to strengthen the rights of the American people against the taking of their private property, it is hereby ordered as follows:

Section 1. Policy. It is the policy of the United States to protect the rights of Americans to their private property, including by limiting the taking of private property by the Federal Government to situations in which the taking is for public use, with just compensation, and for the purpose of benefiting the general public and not merely for the purpose of advancing the economic interest of private parties to be given ownership or use of the property taken.

Sec. 2. Implementation. (a) The Attorney General shall:

(i) issue instructions to the heads of departments and agencies to implement the policy set forth in section 1 of this order; and

(ii) monitor takings by departments and agencies for compliance with the policy set forth in section 1 of this order.

(b) Heads of departments and agencies shall, to the extent permitted by law:

(i) comply with instructions issued under subsection (a)(i); and

(ii) provide to the Attorney General such information as the Attorney General determines necessary to carry out subsection (a)(ii).

Sec. 3. Specific Exclusions. Nothing in this order shall be construed to prohibit a taking of private property by the Federal Government, that otherwise complies with applicable law, for the purpose of:

(a) public ownership or exclusive use of the property by the public, such as for a public medical facility, roadway, park, forest, governmental office building, or military reservation;

(b) projects designated for public, common carrier, public transportation, or public utility use, including those for which a fee is assessed, that serve the general public and are subject to regulation by a governmental entity;

c) conveying the property to a nongovernmental entity, such as a telecommunications or transportation common carrier, that makes the property available for use by the general public as of right;

(d) preventing or mitigating a harmful use of land that constitutes a threat to public health, safety, or the environment;

(e) acquiring abandoned property;

(f) quieting title to real property;

(g) acquiring ownership or use by a public utility;

(h) facilitating the disposal or exchange of Federal property; or

(i) meeting military, law enforcement, public safety, public transportation, or public health emergencies.

Sec. 4. General Provisions. (a) This order shall be implemented consistent with applicable law and subject to the availability of appropriations.

(b) Nothing in this order shall be construed to impair or otherwise affect:

(i) authority granted by law to a department or agency or the head thereof; or

(ii) functions of the Director of the Office of Management and Budget relating to budget, administrative, or legislative proposals.

(c) This order shall be implemented in a manner consistent with Executive Order 12630 of March 15, 1988.

(d) This order is not intended to, and does not, create any right or benefit, substantive or procedural, enforceable at law or in equity against the United States, its departments, agencies, entities, officers, employees, or agents, or any other person.

GEORGE W. BUSH

THE WHITE HOUSE,

June 23, 2006.

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: frogprince
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 02:05 PM

Which may well make G.W.B. right on at least two things; private property, and a humane stance regarding illegal immigrants. But,(please credit me with this highly original metaphor) a broken clock is right twice a day.

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 02:08 PM

And a functioning clock set to the wrong time is NEVER right.

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 02:14 PM

During the past week or so, an American president has come out in favor of locking people up without charging them with anything, and then torturing them in case they might be bad guys and know something he wants to know. He has also bucked for laws that will run the Bill of Rights and most of the rest of the Constitution through a shredder.

What the hell planet do you live on, Old Guy?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: frogprince
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 02:25 PM

Is there anybody here who can say without a doubt that after being "water-boarded" thoroughly (not to speak of some of the methods that have been kept under wraps so far, or what some of our noble foreign allies may have done to prisoners), he would not tell his captors any damn thing he surmised that they wanted to hear?

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Charmion
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 02:33 PM

Thanks for the reminder about the internment of Ukrainians and other citizens of the Austro-Hungarian Empire in 1914, beardedbruce. We Canadians also interned rather a lot of Japanese-Canadians a generation later.

The Canadian government has already paid substantial reparations to Canadian-born individuals of Japanese ancestry who were expelled from the coastal regions of British Columbia. The Germans and Italians interned during the Second World War have so far not launched any claims for reparations. The Ukrainians' claim (from the First World War) is based on their contention that, as the western Ukraine was part of Austro-Hungarian Empire as the result of conquest, they did not consider themselves "citizens".

Has the Canadian government taken to interning ethnic groups again while I wasn't looking? The egregious case of Maher Arar is bad, but not in that class.

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Old Guy
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 06:27 PM

"locking people up" Which people?

I live on this planet in the state of reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Barry Finn
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 09:17 PM

Get ready for another ride to the Supreme Court, again. The Senate just this evening pass a new law to back the president's terror law's which I understand excludes the CIA from any torture law, allows the president to define "what is & is not torture", makes holding prisoners legal without out charges, defines "enemy combantants", etc, etc, etc. All of which is defined by the Geneva Conventions, except as before we again overstep the GC & do as we please. Repeating history is stupid enough but this is insane.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 12:47 AM

It's difficult to believe that you are really as dim as you appear to be, Old Guy.

As to locking people up, have you never heard of the case of Maher Arar? Computer technician and Canadian citizen, apparently on the basis of his Syrian name alone, he was detained at a the John F. Kennedy airport in New York. He was returning to Canada and had done nothing to arouse suspicion, but he did have that Syrian name. When he asked what the charges were, he was not answered. When he asked for an attorney, he was denied. They held him incommunicado for several days and interrogated him. When he was unable to provide any of the information they seemed to think he had (he was exactly what he told them he was, and had no connection with any terrorist group whatsoever), they shipped him overseas where he was held for a year in a tiny cell (actually, a hole in the ground), taken out every day, and tortured. For a year! Finally, when his overseas torturers reached the conclusion that he knew nothing, they released him. He returned to Canada, and has filed suit against the United States government, but the suit has been denied. Maher Arar was completely innocent of what the American authorities assumed. His "crime" was his Mid-Eastern name. Google "Maher Arar" and educate yourself. There is plenty of material out there on him and what was done to him.

That's only one of many similar cases.

Have you not heard of Guantanamo? Hundreds of people held for years without being charged with anything, and denied counsel. And "interrogated."

Bush and his minions can lock up anybody they want and hold them incommunicado--and without counsel--merely by dubbing them "enemy combatants." Or any one of several other handy terms they've invented. And they claim to be answerable to no one. This is unconstitutional and a violation of several stipulations of the Bill of Rights, in addition to being a violation of the Geneva Accords, and several domestic and international laws. This is very much the kind of thing that Bush and the members of his administration have accused Saddam Hussein of doing. Think about it!

If you're not aware of what's been going on in this country lately, Old Guy, then if you've not been living on Arcturus Five, you must have had your head in a bucket. Or getting all of your "news" from sources like the Fox News Service and Rush Limbaugh. Or--you actually think what the Bush administration is doing is just dandy. In that case, you most certainly cannot regard yourself as any kind of conservative. Wild-eyed, rabid radical Right, most assuredly. Or worse! But conservative, no.

But then, even talking to you is undoubtedly a waste of time.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 02:18 AM

Brits have no understanding of this situation. They've been neutered. Allowed themselves to be ruled over by a "monarch" for a thousand years or so. They don't understand representative govt. Their queen allows them the facade of a parliamentary process, but she owns all the land in her "domain." Even Canada is one of her "dominions," yet Canadians labor away under the same delusion the other Brits do...that those crowns everywhere are just for decoration. The queen owns all your land and all of you Brits and Brit-lites, so no advice on how the U.S. should run its representative govt, please.

Anyway, it's appearing that the U.S. is coming closer and closer to having a monarch of its own. If the president can disappear you for any reason, then the US is just like England. But Bush's supposed "powers" are a moot point. The U.S. Supreme court settled this in 1803.

"...an act of the legislature, repugnant to the constitution, is void." Marbury vs. Madison. That ruling is as clear as words can make it. The U.S. has a written constitution, and the first 10 amendments outline the rights we're born with and which govt cannot take away. This latest torture bill proposes to take those rights, so the bill is void. Now for the rub. What if some Nazis try to enforce this voided bill as if it IS law. That's where the guns come in. Buy them, buy ammo, practice, and sleep well. We have the right to own guns in order to protect us from abusive govt. Sorry you fellow Americans may have to stand up and defend yourselves when you were looking forward to endless reruns of Gilligan's Island, but that's the way it goes. I mean, do you want to end up like the Brits? Or the Canadians? Utter slaves. Or the Mexicans? Those countries are full of people who don't have any CONCEPT of a Bill of Rights, and if we let the Bill of Rights go, then this planet is in for a long, long period of darkness. Buy guns.

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 05:08 PM

"And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive... Or, if during periods of mass arrests...people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes... The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, not withstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to halt!"

Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn. The Gulag Archipeligo

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 05:15 PM

"Kananaskis"

And the Conservative government in the fine old Province of Alberta has turned Kananaskis into a golf course. That's our memorial to the wrongs we did. We let people play golf, lest the fu#kin' forget.

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Old Guy
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 05:57 PM

Have you not heard of Venezeula? Thousands of people held for years on only charges. And "interrogated."

But we should buy Citgo gas and boycott Walmart.

House Arrests, Torture and Military Prisons


Carlos Alfonzo Martinez was the longest-serving general in Venezuela's Armed Forces when he was arrested.
The grand old man, highly respected for his dedication to his men and to his country, had reluctantly become a dissident. Of humble origins, he had always turned his back on corruption, and still lived in the small two-room service apartment assigned to him within the barracks of Fuerte Tiuna. In meetings with Chavez, he was told of the plans for turning Venezuela into a terrorist haven and Cuban-style dictatorship. He also saw how corruption from the oil trade enriched the men in the Chavez inner circle. And reluctantly, Carlos Alfonzo Martinez, in his last year of active service, decided to become a dissident.

On the day of his arrest, the old silver-haired general was giving a protest speech in a public square in El Paraiso, a middle class neighborhood in Western Caracas. He had just finished a call for free and democratic elections when four patrols of machine-gun wielding secret service patrols showed up and arrested him. The charge: Inciting violence in public.

Carlos Alfonzo Martinez spent the next ten months in house arrest in the Fuerte Tiuna barracks. Recently, fearing his escape, Chavez officials moved him to the subhuman conditions of the Ramo Verde military prison where he is still held; awaiting trial.

In Venezuela, around half of all prisoners are held just on charges. Sentences are rare and it is common to be held for many years while awaiting trial.

And thanks to the ruthless strong-arm tactics of Hugo Chavez, other dissidents are now in the same spot...

...Contract killings

In a democracy, you can freely speak your mind. But in Venezuela under the heavy hand of Chavez, it can cost you your life.

The killings started on the night of December 6, a month and a half after the Plaza Altamira protest had started and in the early days of a nationwide strike.

Five days earlier, Chavez had publicly declared the military dissident outlaws, and said that the protest in the square must be crushed. On December 6, a "lone and crazy gunman" by the name of Joao de Gouveia appeared in Altamira square and immediately started firing into the crowds of peaceful protesters. When he had emptied his handgun, 3 were dead and more than 20 wounded...


...Soon thereafter, in February, three other Altamira dissidents were not that lucky. Darwin Argello from the Army, Angel Salas from the Navy, and Felix Pinto from the Airforce were singled out for murder when they celebrated a birthday party together, two of them with their girlfriends. The five bodies were found the next day: bound, gagged and tortured -- then shot dead, execution style. One girl survived. Heavily wounded, and left for dead, she miraculously lived to tell her story. But right before she was due to be interrogated, Chavez operatives -- led by heavily armed party leader Lina Ron -- showed up at the hospital and "sent her a message". Since then, the girl has been silent and will not testify as to who tortured and killed her dissident friends...

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 06:02 PM

Naw...GUEST. The Queen doesn't run Canada. She's an ananchronism in this country, barely even thought of anymore. A bunch of international corporations and the defence establishment run Canada, and they're the same people that run the USA, by the way. We're just the USA's northern branch plant for manufacturing munitions. The Queen is part of the ruling elite, no doubt, but it's the big corporations who are in charge of what happens, and they are accountable to no one. And all they wish to do is increase their profits and their power. War is their business, so you may expect it to continue indefinitely.

We are all living in the same great Empire.

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 06:37 PM

So, Old Guy (Oh, Ethically Challenged One), what Venezuela does makes it okay for us to begin moving in that direction too?

What the hell did they teach you in school!??

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 06:41 PM

He's obsessed with Venezuela. He doesn't need to worry about his own country, Don, just Cuba and Venezuela. Just blame everything on Cuba and Venezuela, take 2 aspirins, and call me in the morning. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Old Guy
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 12:40 AM

People falsely accuse Bush of doing what Chavez is doing for real.

Then they agree with Chavez that Bush is a dictator.

Little Hawk is fascinated with Cuba but he wouldn't want to live there.

He would rather live in a free country where he can spout off anti-government bull shit with out fear of retribution. All the while claiming his rights are being compromised.

Yep, just blame everything on the government who allows you those freedoms and idolize dictators who do not allow those freedoms to their people.

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 01:09 AM

It's a waste of time, Little Hawk. He's clueless.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Old Guy
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 09:44 AM

Instead of the logical fallacy of Ad Hominem, how about a rebuttal of the facts?

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Old Guy
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 10:03 AM

...In 1999, The constitution was re-written and a new Constitutional Assembly was created, with pro-Chávez representatives taking 120 of 131 seats, and giving him a clear majority. By August of the same year a "judicial state of emergency" was declared, giving Chávez unchecked power to remove judges; later that month a "legislative state of emergency" was declared, leaving a seven man committee in charge of legislative functions; subsequently the Congress was barred from meeting.

In December of 1999 a nationwide referendum was approved to extend the term of the president to 6 years and impose a term limit of two terms on the president; the previous term limit had been one term. He was able to have legislation passed in November 2000 to allow him to rule by decree for one year, and ran for re-election in December 2000 and won; at the same time the new unicameral legislature was taken by 60% pro-Chávez representatives. During the election he attempted to centralize the labour unions to one national union by referendum, but was unsuccessful.

Towards the end of Chávez's rule by decree in November 2001, he enacted a spate of new legislation. One of these "reforms" called for the expropriation of unused private lands with compensation for re-distribution to small farmers. Wealthy landowners felt themselves squeezed by the government and opposed this fiercely. The Chamber of Commerce of Venezuela also opposed these policies and attempted to organize general strikes in December 2001.

On 11 April 2002, chaos erupted in Venezuela, with huge protests of over half a million people organized demanding the immediate resignation Chávez. Chávez ordered the military to control the riots instead of the police "Plan Avila", possibly with orders to fire upon the protesters; the military refused to carry out Plan Avila, forcing Chávez to leave the capitol and resign, which was announced on 12 April 2002. A vacuum of power ensued and Pedro Carmona was placed in power; however due to missteps even in his first day of power, many who had supported the removal of Chávez now refused to back Carmona, forcing his resignation and the restoration of Chávez to power.

It is difficult to term what exactly happened in April of 2002, some call it a coup, some a rebellion, while the Supreme Court of Venezuela called it a power vacuum. About 100 people died during the April incident. Since these events, Chávez has rigorously accused the US of orchestrating the "coup" against him, but there is no evidence suggesting that this is true. The four military officers that orchestrated the coup were eventually absolved of blame by the Venezuelan Supreme Court, terming the sequence of events a rebellion and vacuum of power, due to the fact that the resignation of Chávez had been officially announced by former head of the army, General Lucas Rincon Romero on state media.

On 02 December 2002 a general strike at the Venezuelan Oil Company PDVSA was cracked down by Chávez, resulting in his dismissal of 18.000 employees, many who had not been involved in the strike but were simply not seen as loyal to Chávez; the lack of oils workers brought the country's oil production and export to a standstill until February 2003. Poor sentiment at the company had gradually increased due to the appointment of Rafael Ramírez Carreno to president of the company, a man who was regarded by many to be a Marxist and an enemy of management. Chávez later admitted to having a hand in the crisis at PDVSA in order for him to gain more control over the company and consolidate his power. However the consolidation of control over PDVSA by Chávez did have a price, as even in May, 2005 the company had still not fully recovered to productivity before the strikes.

On 01 February, 2003, Opposition to Chávez moved to have him removed from office, gathering more than three million signatures of private citizens calling for a referendum on whether Chávez should remain in power. After much obstruction by the government, this move failed when the petition was ultimately declared invalid, because the signatures had been gathered prior to Chávez' mid-point in his term.

In August 2004, a second petition was organized, this time with 3,5 million signatures and a referendum was held but almost 60% of the voting population opposed to remove Chávez from office. However, results were later found to have irregularities, with more than 40% of the population not taking part in the vote, despite reports that voters had turned out in record numbers.

In May 2004 another coup plot was reported foiled by the Venezuelan government.

Freedom of the Press?

The Media in Venezuela is largely and overtly against Chávez, with very little mass media supporting him. However there are numerous reports of intimidation of the media by pro Chávez gangs that have been alleged to have issued violent threats against the media that does not support him. Chávez moved to start restrictions on the media with vaguely worded legislation that could allow him to suppress political content, although the initial scope of the law was restrictions on pornographic and violent content.

In mid-March of 2005 Chávez passed legislation further clamping down on the press, by broadening controls on how the press can report articles deemed "disrespectful" or "insulting" of the government. Sentencing for such transgressions ranges between 20 and 40 months incarceration, depending on the gravity of the offense. Moreover laws have been passed against the media, tightening controls on what would be considered slanderous, carrying sentences up to 30 months and what would amount to tens of thousands of US dollars in fines.

Numerous human rights organizations have expressed great concern over the incremental restrictions imposed by the Chávez regime on the Venezuelan media .

Supreme Count

To solidify his control over the Venezuelan Supreme Court, Chávez passed legislation in May 2003 to increase the number of Supreme Court Justices from 20 to 32 and appointing another 5 vacant posts, giving him a clear majority in the judicial branch of the government. He also allowed for the appointment of 32 reserve justices, all of which are loyal to him. It should also be noted that former justices were forced to resign after several "politically sensitive rulings". Many are very concerned that with the control of the courts, Chavez seems to have consolidated control over the executive, legislative and judicial branches of the government.

The Statesman

Chávez as a statesman has interesting allies, having a very close personal friendship with Fidel Castro of Cuba, and Venezuela provides oil to Cuba in exchange for skilled workers and other services. Similar to Castro, Chávez is seen as a darling to the left wing, especially left wing media in the United States.

Chávez also had ties to Saddam Hussein of Iraq, and not only staunchly opposed the invasion of Iraq but also went on a state visit to Hussein. He has also allied himself with Qaddafi in Libya, receiving a human rights award from him in 2004 during a state visit.

Not surprisingly relations with the USA are extremely poor, with Chávez publicly attacking President George Bush, and accusing the United States of attempting further attempts on his life. In fact his paranoia and pre-occupation of removal from office has reached such proportions that Chávez's rationality has been called into question by some.

Chávez has also recently bought MiG's from Russia, and territorial disputes with Colombia and Guyana now call into question whether Chávez is looking to start looking to his military for purposes other than defending the country. He has granted asylum to Colombian opposition terrorists, which indicates that perhaps he might also attempt to move against Colombia in other ways than outward military force. Moreover, Chávez has been known to support numerous far-left terrorist groups in South America.

The Left-Wing Fascist (sic)?

The National Guard or state police force in Venezuela has been accused of intimidation and bullying tactics of opposition, reminiscent of the Mussolini brownshirts in the 1930's. It is also troubling that nationalism and xenophobia are seemingly fostered by the government, combined with a push to have the population loyal to Chávez and not to the country. He has created a cult of personality about himself, creating the illusion to the masses that he is infallible; as a speaker Chávez has a bombastic style, literally working his audience up into a frenzy.

Chávez seems also to aspire to unite much of South America's sentiment against foreigners, notably the United States. He speaks of a continental vision, but clearly not without much influence from himself.

Personal Life

Chávez has four children, Rosa Virginia, María Gabriela, Hugo Rafael, and Rosinés, and has been married twice. He is currently separated from his second wife after cheating on her and being caught with a female government officer, Maripili Hernandez.
Chávez reportedly suffers from numerous health problems, such as colds, digestive disorders, asthma and kidney problems. He is very devoted to his family, which is evident that he has appointed numerous family members to key posts, including his father (Governor of State) and his brother Adan (Ambassador to Cuba and broker of many deals with Cuba.

http://www.dictatorofthemonth.com/Chavez/Jun2005ChavezEN.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 01:37 PM

Calling you clueless is not an ad hominem fallacy, Old Guy, it is simply an observation.

And the fact is that you are clueless.   

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 02:44 PM

I'm fascinated with almost every place I've visited, Old Guy, Cuba included. They're all very interesting in their own way. The reason Cuba fascinates me, though, is this: they have successfully resisted the Great Conquering Empire for 47 years, despite being just offshore from Florida...and still survived somehow. That's incredible. I admire them for that.

I admire Chavez because he has survived a CIA coup. That's not easy. Allende in Chile did not survive one. Neither did most of the others who were subjected to that sort of illegal and clandestine attack by the Empire.

The World Court condemned the USA during Reagan's term for illegal attacks and terrorism on Nicaragua, Old Guy. They found the USA guilty of massacring Nicaraguan civilians and mining neutral harbours without a declaration of war. Look it up. The USA ignored the World Court's rulings, because that's what outlaws do. They ignore the courts...unless they are in control of them, of course, in which case the courts will be made to rule in their favour.

USA-financed death squads have murdered tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands by now, in Central and South America, and they continue to do so. You won't hear about that on Fox, because Fox is the mouthpiece of the Empire. Old Guy, you are living in the single most feared, most aggressive, and most generally hated power on the face of the Earth right now, and that is no accident (that it is feared and hated, I mean). But you don't get it, and you never will. You're a blind patriot. Such people get used and then discarded by their leaders when they are no longer useful.

Hans Ulrich Rudel didn't get it, either. He flew Stukas for the Reich. He was brave beyond the call of duty, tremendously capable, and totally, absolutely naive in a political sense. For all I know, you are probably brave and capable too. It happens. The best of people can still be fooled by national propaganda.

No one out there is any real threat to your country right now except the small elite group of people who are running it. But I'd never expect you to believe that. Too bad you're not still young enough to enlist and fight....I'd say, "go, young man. Go to Iraq. Discover the truth the hard way, on the ground, and tell me all about it afterward if you survive the experience."

Mind you, Rudel went. He destroyed over 500 Russian tanks with his stukas during the war. It didn't change anything. He was just as loyal a Nazi after the German surrender as he had been before it. Some people's faith in their accustomed political system and its propaganda is like a rock...nothing can move it.

If they win, they get to be called "heroes" afterward. If not, well, that's a different story. What Rudel did in combat on the Eastern Front WAS heroic, but he was doing it in service of a totally criminal national system. I'm sorry to say that that is the case with American servicemen at the moment too. They are dying for the oil companies, not for democracy or justice or freedom. They kill freedom in its cradle. I don't expect most of them to realize that. That's not an easy leap for anyone to make. People want to believe they are on the side of good, after all. It's natural that they should want to. Your military takes full advantage of that, as it brutalizes and brainwashes your youngsters in basic training, pschologically rapes them and numbs their perceptions, and then sends them out to kill for oil.

If your faith ever got shaken and the blinders fell off your eyes and you truly realized what has happened to your nation, you might face despair. Maybe you're better off remaining a true believer...

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 08:14 AM

"GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 02:18 AM

Brits have no understanding of this situation. They've been neutered. Allowed themselves to be ruled over by a "monarch" for a thousand years or so. They don't understand representative govt. Their queen allows them the facade of a parliamentary process, but she owns all the land in her "domain." Even Canada is one of her "dominions," yet Canadians labor away under the same delusion the other Brits do...that those crowns everywhere are just for decoration. The queen owns all your land and all of you Brits and Brit-lites, so no advice on how the U.S. should run its representative govt, please."

From the above, I would guess that this GUEST is an American. With regard to the UK's constitutional monarchy he/she obviously does not have a clue. Example - "she owns all the land in her "domain." - In fact she owns very little of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 10:37 PM

No, the queen owns everything. She just gives you permission to squat on her land. Her Majesty's this and Her Majesty's that. You people are suffering from the Stockholm Syndrome...falling in love with your kidnapper. You live and breathe at Her Majesty's pleasure, and you think she's wonderful. And now the same system is being implemented in America. But we haven't fallen in love with the kidnapper yet:

"It was a dark hour indeed on Thursday when the United States Senate voted to end the Constitutional Republic and transform the country into a "Leader-State," giving the president and his agents the power to capture, torture and imprison forever anyone - American citizens included - whom they arbitrarily decide is an "enemy combatant." This also includes those who merely give "terrorism" some kind of "support," defined so vaguely that many experts say it could encompass legal advice, innocent gifts to charities or even political opposition to US government policy within its draconian strictures."

http://www.rense.com/general73/ddep.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Old Guy
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 12:18 AM

"And the fact is that you are clueless."

Another Ad Hominem attack.

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Old Guy
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 12:20 AM

"I admire Chavez"

Then you must admire Carlos the Jackal that Chavez admires.

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Old Guy
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 12:22 AM

Among the Jackal's admirers is the Venezuelan President, Hugo Chavez

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 01:38 AM

He still doesn't get it. That man is a parrot.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: fumblefingers
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 02:14 AM

This is definitely an anti-Bush group here, for the most part, so I'll tread lightly. That Bush is a decent man as compared to Bill Clinton seems to be the reason he is so hated.

What "Something Bad is about to happen" is going to originate in Iran. While y'all are wringing your hands because the government is trying to keep the Islamic killers from cutting off your heads, is that those who believe in Islam are coming. They've made it plain: convert to Islam or die. You can get a good deal on a prayer rug if you buy one tomorrow. If Iran gets the a-bomb and a way of delivering it; all your fears about capital punishment, wire-tapping of al Qaeda agents in the US and mistreating those poor murderers in Guantanamo will be for naught.

They are counting on our soft society and the ignorance of our people to ease their way. We don't take them seriously. We are gullible. We're worried that those we have captured aren't getting the same rights as a guy who stuck up a liquor store. We're about sending messages and holding the moral high ground, while they could give a rat's ass about such trivialities. You'd better wake up before it's too late.

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 03:36 AM

GUEST (03 Oct 06 - 10:37 PM) you are failing to differentiate between what is owned by "The Crown" (Treated in law as a corporate entity) and what is owned by the reigning sovereign (The person). The Queen personally owns Sandringham and she owns Balmoral, all else is owned by "The Crown" and would not form part of the Queen's estate on her death. The reigning monarch cannot do anything with "Crown" property, she cannot sell it/dispose of it.

As for her giving people permission to "squat on her land" I think that you should research what is meant in the UK by holding "Freehold" land. It basically means that the purchaser of that land owns it outright. That being so, as owner you require no-ones permission to live on the land that you own.

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Amos
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 09:10 AM

Fumblefingers:

What leads you to believe that Mister Bush is a decent man?

We don't usually apply that word to those who lie publically, perpetrate mayhem, brutalize others, and use public office for private gain. All these, and more, Mister Bush has done.

If this is a decent man, god spare the species.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: pdq
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 09:55 AM

Welcome, fumblefingers!

Yes, George W. Bush is hated for what he is and not for what he does. Bush is so normal and honest that people who have any history of 'unusual' behavior feel threatened by comparison to him.

Also, these people need heroes. Rock stars instead of quiet leaders. They long for a charismatic president like John F. Kennedy and will destroy Bush because does not meet their pre-conceived standards. History will show that Bush has skillfully guided us through some very rough times. Clinton stuck his head in th sand for eight years and blamed everything wrong on "the last twelve years of...".

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Amos
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 10:20 AM

PDQ:

Your sense of newspeak and historical re-write is atrocious. I think if you look closely you will find that it is a commmon blame tactic of the current administration to try and blame Clinton, while the hiding of heads in sand up until 9-11-01 was a Bushian trait. Furthermore, although it is true theat Bush is a party-boy and a moronic disdainer of ideas, a man of bufoonish vocabulary and extreme insensitivity, none of that is held against him in the long run. The unnecessary deaths of tens or hundreds of thousands, the falsification of public information, the lies and deceits and coverups, and the diplomatic face-flops and ruination of national credit -- these things might have more to do with why he is excoriated here than what he is.

I think you deserve a recipe for chocolate-dipped salamander cookies.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 01:32 PM

The crown IS the queen. Or the king. Elizabeth Saxe-Coburg made the gesture of signing up for income tax a few years back and proclaimed her worth to be a billion or so, as I recall. A joke. The queen (crown) owns the whole of England.   Canada belongs to the crown, too. Ownership is not what is represented in the newspapers. The Queen has literal life and death rights over you people. Witness David Kelly. A half-dozen black-suited men seen dumping him in a park and it's ruled a suicide. He no longer had the queen's "pleasure." At least the monsters in America have the comparative decency to put their murderous intent on paper. Your monarch has never done that. Neither did Stalin or the other tyrants. They just did their killing off the record. Maybe that's why you don't understand what's happened to you. You are "suicided" by MI-5 and executed by police on subways, yet you still don't see the pattern.

But in the U.S. things will have to be done differently. Sure we have the off the record type killings, in abundance, but for our total, British-like subjugation, the U.S. Bill of Rights must be dealt with. And it's an incredibly powerful piece of paper. The greatest governing document ever written. It gives me the right (or rather, it reaffirms my "God-given" right) to own firearms...so I can protect myself against unjust government. I mean, how are these pedophilic, torturing psychopaths going to deal with a country legally armed to the teeth unless they nullify the Bill of Rights? They can't. Solzhenitsyn said they could've stopped the Soviet police state with axes and determination, and we have semi-autos.

Like I said, we're still trying to figure out how to deal with this situation, and advice from people who've been reduced to defending themselves with knives and flyswatters isn't really helpful, is it? Personally, I'm surprised you haven't all been ground into bone meal and plowed into the crown's estates by now.

Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 01:49 PM

My goodness! ;-)

If you took all the extreme and contradictory positions in this thread, scrambled them up together in a blender, and added some horseradish....you'd have the hottest damn meal in history.

I give up.

Old Guy, I have NO opinion about Carlos the Jackal, okay? None. I probably never will. I simply don't have time to have an opinion about everything.

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 03:03 PM

"Yes, George W. Bush is hated for what he is and not for what he does."

pdq, that seems to be a standard "skim over reality" mode of thinking of Bush and most his supporters. Unfortunately, his administration is not alone in this, because it would mean a radical change in America's foreign policies. But he has turned the volume way up.

NOW HEAR THIS:   Bush is not hated for what he is. If people hate him, it's because of what he has done, is doing, and apparently intends to do.

Bush himself (and those who support his view of reality, his voluntary ignorance, and his policies) exhibits this kind of thinking when he says things like "the terrorists hate us because this is a free country." Dingoes kidneys!! A lot of Middle-Easterners hate the United States and several other countries because the U. S. and others have been exploiting them for generations, if not centuries, and they're damned sick and tired of it. And recently they're anger has taken on a religious fervor as a result of activist Islamic fundamentalists and they've decided they aren't going to take it anymore. They're striking back in the only way they feel they're able.

The way to effectively fight terrorism of this kind is first, to back off and take a good look at our own policies, and second, be willing to address their grievances in good faith. But the chances of that ever happening are about as good as Bush's chances of flying to heaven by flapping his arms. It would affect the bottom line of two many American-based corporations, and we can't have that!

As long as we refuse to face the truth about the policies of this country, there will be terrorists. And Bush's illegal war against Iraq and his bellicose threats against Iran are only making the problem much worse.

I don't hate Bush. I wish him a speedy and pleasant retirement to Crawford, Texas where he can cut all the brush he wants and, in the future, preside over nothing more important to the country or the world than a weekend barbeque. I've heard that he's a lot of fun at a barbeque.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: pdq
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 06:53 PM

I have it on good authority that "Carlos the Jackal" has no opinion on Little Hawk either.

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 07:01 PM

I certainly hope you're right about that... ;-) I prefer not to attract the attention of such luminaries.

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Old Guy
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 11:29 PM

"As to locking people up, have you never heard of the case of Maher Arar? Computer technician and Canadian citizen, apparently on the basis of his Syrian name alone,"

Maher Arar

...The arrest came after Canadian police provided "inaccurate" information to US security officials suggesting Arar was an "Islamic extremist" with links to Osama Bin Laden's terror group, according to the Canadian report...

..."Mr Arar was deported under our immigration laws. He was initially detained because his name appeared on terrorist lists, and he was deported according to our laws," ...

CBC News Online

...the FBI and U.S. security officials were given an inaccurate and unfair picture of the Arars and that this portrait dogged his entire time in a Syrian jail.

O'Connor also finds that the RCMP blocked Foreign Affairs from trying to get Arar returned to Canada earlier and omitted certain important facts about the Arar case when briefing senior government officials. The judge says he will strongly recommend Canada compensate the Arars for what happened to them. ...

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Old Guy
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 12:22 AM

"I have NO opinion about Carlos the Jackal"

When you support Chavez, you support the terrorists that he supports.

What has this great humnitarian done or said about the ethnic cleansing id Darfur?

He goes to a meeting with Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Omar Hassan al-Bashir to bash America.

Now that you "admire Chavez", you have them all as well as Carlos the Jackal for bedfellows.

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Barry Finn
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 01:28 AM

PDQ
Clinton stuck his head in th sand for eight years and blamed everything wrong on "the last twelve years of...".

Who's head was stuck where? Remember 9/11. Who's blaming everything on someone else? Look at the past 6 years!


Bush has only himself to blame for being hated by the worlds majority, yes that includes his home team too. Not only for who he is & not only for what he's done but also for what his isn't & for what he hasn't done.
You can tell one's character by the company they keep. This man sleeps in the swamp, feeds from the sludge, prays to a tin totem & begs from the devil & that's the way history will see him!

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 04:03 AM

GUEST 04 Oct 06 - 01:32 PM

Go and take a look at The Crown Estate website. Currently valued, according to the 2006 accounts, at just under £6 Billion, all profit goes directly to the Treasury (For 2006 that amounted to £190.8 Million).

Here is a small taster for you:

"Although the ownership of some property can be traced back to Edward the Confessor, the estate as a whole essentially dates from 1066. After the Norman Conquest, all the land belonged to William "in right of The Crown" because he was King. Despite centuries of change in law and custom, the underlying ownership of The Crown still exists and there is always a presumption in favour of The Crown unless it can be proved that the land belongs to someone else. (Hence the importance of making a Will - Teribus)

The Sovereign's estates had always been used to raise revenue, and over time large areas were granted to nobles. The estate fluctuated in size and value but by 1760, when George III acceded to the throne, the asset had been reduced to a small area producing little income - revenue which George III needed to fulfil the Sovereign's fiscal responsibilities to the nation.

By that time taxes had become the prime source of revenue for the United Kingdom and Parliament administered the country, so an agreement was reached that The Crown Lands would be managed on behalf of the Government and the surplus revenue would go to the Treasury. In return the King would receive a fixed annual payment - today known as the Civil List. This agreement has, at the beginning of each reign, been repeated by every succeeding Sovereign.

In 1955 a Government Committee under the Chairmanship of Sir Malcolm Trustram Eve recommended that to avoid confusion between Government property and Crown land, the latter should be renamed The Crown Estate and should be managed by an independent board. These recommendations were implemented by The Crown Estate Acts of 1956 and 1961.

Under the Act of 1961, the estate is managed by a Board who have a duty to maintain and enhance the value of the estate and the return obtained from it, but with due regard to the requirements of good management."

With what is stated above taken into account let's take a look at some of your contentions:

"The crown IS the queen. Or the king." Correct, but since the days of George III, The Crown/King/Queen has never had any control over what would later be termed as The Crown Estate, instead He/She gets paid a fixed amount each year by the Government. The private wealth of the current Sovereign is basically down to the efforts of Queen Victoria's husband, Prince Albert of Saxe-Coburg, who was an extremely capable administrator and who was grossly under-employed. As a result of this he turned his attention and energies into making the British Royal Family more solvent (First purchase was the Sandringham Estate)

"The queen (crown) owns the whole of England." Incorrect as detailed above. In fact I have two pieces of paper that clearly state that there are two tiny lumps of England that I own outright. Now were I foolish enough not to make "A Last Will and Testament" and I had no heirs and there was no claim against my estate by any third party, at my demise my estate would go to the Crown - it has to go to somebody.

"The Queen has literal life and death rights over you people." Incorrect, this "right" was first shackled at Runnimede under the reign of King John, it was successively restricted through the course of history (English Civil War; Restoration; Glorious Revolution, etc.)

"Witness David Kelly. A half-dozen black-suited men seen dumping him in a park and it's ruled a suicide." - Complete and utter twaddle. Where did this come from The National Enquirer? Please provide some form of substantiation for your claim relating to these six "black-suited men".

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 05:16 AM

It is quite obvious you have some crazy people over there. Perhaps the newspapers and tv stations are all owned by people who are a bit crazy - although not as bonkers as the political theorists on this thread.

You have freedom of expression though. Start a website. Organise, Agitate.

Do something.

As you can see from our posts on mudcat - in England, the crazy people are more marginalised. To be honest, I don't think they're half as nutty as your lot. Its the detail in these conspiracy theories.........you'd swear it was sent to them in a vision.

The thing is, Teribus seems to be crazy enough to make a detailed rebuttal - which is worrying.

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 09:03 PM

So THIS is why you folks haven't been ground to bone meal yet...the queen needs you to produce fertilizer for her sceptered isle. No wonder the place looks so green in photos.

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: GUEST,Mr Always Right
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 09:10 PM

Aha! This thread looks like fertile ground for someone who is looking for an argument. Well, here I am, and I'm Always Right.

Too bad for the rest of you...

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Old Guy
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 09:17 PM

You are right.

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: number 6
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 09:21 PM

Something bad is about to happen ... it is ... Loggins and Messina are on Public TV tonite.

Excuse me as I go do some channel surfing ... maybe there is an intriguing round of World Champoinship poke or something.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: number 6
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 09:27 PM

"poke or something."

s/b .... maybe there is an intriguing round of World Championship poker on or something exciting.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 09:30 PM

I went out tonight, met some old pals at Frankie's and had a few drinks. Well, more than a few to be honest about it. I got blasted. On top of that, I ordered 3 big plates of oysters. Now, here's the problem. I think the oysters may've been slightly "off". Why do I say that? I been sweatin' bad for about the last 15 minutes and it alternates with cold chills. The room seems to be moving around in circles now and then too, and I got this funny feeling like the floor keeps shiftin' under me. The hot and cold flashes are comin' faster now. Jeez, I don't feel too good! I got a definite feeling here that...

Somethin' BAD is about to happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: number 6
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 09:37 PM

That's BAD ... GOOD news for me .... Chongo gets food poisoning from bad shellfish ... serves him right.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Old Guy
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 09:54 PM

Take two Bannanas and call me in the morning.

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: bobad
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 10:00 PM

"World Champoinship poke" - sounds more exiting than World Championship poker.

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: fumblefingers
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 10:28 AM

If this is a decent man, god spare the species.

Amos:

I live in Texas and have been around George Bush and his dad for many years. None of the things you are charging him with are factually true. This is the same old Democrat smear that's been around for years. What did he lie about in public? If you call war with terrorists mayhem and brutalizing others, then I wish he'd get rougher.

How has he used public office for private gain? With whom did he conspire and I want names and dates; what precisely did he do and how much money did he receive from it? Where is the money and what is your evidence?

If you actually have any evidence of wrong-doing, then why has it not been front page news in the main stream press and why has no legal action been taken against him? The answer is because it isn't true.

Subject: RE: BS: Something Bad is about to Happen
From: Gervase
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 11:26 AM

Bush's wrongdoing has been front-page news in the mainstream press for the past three years. It certainly has in the UK, at any rate; from his draft dodging to his lies about Iraq. The man's a moral pygmy supported by a clacque of dangerous neo-cons.
And living in Texas doesn't give one any more insight into Bush than my living in Wales lets me in on what the Prince of Wales is thinking!

And I wouldn't really worry about what that lunatic 'Guest' is banging on about the monarchy. The poor idiot clearly hasn't the foggiest what he's talking about and is simply muddying the water by recyling stuff from the nether regions of the internet. He's probably a friend of David Icke.