BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK

Subject: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Grab
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 06:08 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5387358.stm

As always, be worried about an "independent" report which proves what the people commissioning it want it to prove! :-/

I have to say that I agree with worries about gamekeepers poisoning birds of prey. Foxes I'm not too bothered about - there's plenty of them - but birds of prey are in serious decline and gamekeepers have brought several species to the verge of extinction (red kites for one).

But I'd also take issue with the line "This (wildlife) is a national asset - by what right do people start harvesting this for profit?" Actually this wildlife is as carefully a "farmed" set of animals as any free-range chickens or hill-farm sheep. Pheasants, grouse and deer may not be domesticated, but they're living in environmental conditions which are fully controlled and created by humans, which is something it's too easy to forget. The only important element is ensuring that the take is sustainable - commercial fishing is the prime example of what happens when it isn't. Also in many cases (especially deer), controlled culling is *essential* to keep the population from overfilling their environment.

I'm ambivalent about the "pursuit of the inedible by the unspeakable", but when it comes to hunting game animals then I really hope this doesn't get closed down. Fortunately, whilst this is a minority sport, it's certainly not a small or an underfunded minority sport, and it's difficult to make the same charges of cruelty as for fox-hunting. It's worth remembering too that the results would be immediately evident to many people who don't hunt - if a ban happened, you would never again be able to eat pheasant, pigeon or venison in the UK.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 08:45 AM

I am all in favour of those who wish to shoot at and kill things for enjoyment - to be permitted to do so.

Open moorland can be set aside for this.

One group of hunters can venture out from one direction and other groups from another and they can all meet up and shoot the living daylights out of each other.

This should provide plenty of enjoyment and employment.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 09:08 AM

I shoot.I also hunt with a lurcher. I love it. It contributes massively to the rural economy, not that most city dwellers give a f**k about the countryside, as long as it looks nice and pretty for them on a weekend. Try a weeks wild boar hunting in Poland, it's excellent sport.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Grab
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 09:08 AM

Sure, and fishermen should all be held underwater with hooks in their mouths until they drown, and abattoir workers should have their throats cut...

If you're a vegetarian Roger, then that's fine. If you eat meat though (and the vast majority of the country does), things die in order that you can eat. And someone has to kill them.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 10:35 AM

You have to admire the league against cruel sports sometimes. Their logic is amazing...

"Hunting foxes with dogs is cruel. If we get hunting banned, the foxes will be shot. Much better."

and

"Shooting birds is cruel. "

What a consistient position!

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 12:12 PM

From a moral perspective we may say that killing is undesirable, yet may be necessary, and if necessary should be done as humanely as possible. Seems quite consistent to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Ernest
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 12:56 PM

No Richard: Bunnahabhain compared their positions towards foxes (shooting ok) with the position towards birds (shooting not ok).
Necessity wasn`t mentioned. Neither was an alternative shown for hunting birds (using falcons etc. would be more like coursing, which is felt undesirable concerning foxes).

As to a moral approach one should consider that death by predator is natural for game - much more natural than the conditions chicken, pigs and cows living in on what are more meat-factories than farms.
Which exist because the general public (non-hunting) wants to buy the cheapest meat around ignoring that this causes inhuman conditions for animals.

Grab is quite right: game is more carefully (i.e. !ecologically correct") managed than most farm animals.

Best
Ernest

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: gnu
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 02:15 PM

Well... how's about them sheep, eh? Once, twice a year, they get chased, penned, manhandled.... SHEAR TERROR for the poor buggers. It goes on for years!!!! And for what? So you can wear fancy sweaters and mittens!! It's an outrage. An OUTRAGE!!

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 02:41 PM

Let's discuss this in dead ernest (could not resist that).

Killing fox necessary (allegedly, farmers say so, etc, etc) - ergo do it as humanely as possible. Got a better way than shooting?
Shooting bird (usually) not necessary - so don't do it.

See? Easy when you stop to think.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Gervase
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 03:42 PM

But what if the bird is regarded as a cash crop and thus a source of income for you as a farmer?
You can either keep it in pens, which stifle its natural instincts, and then cart it off in plastic crates to a slaughterhouse where someone will hang it up by its back legs and electrocute it (which is what happens to nearly all the poultry sold) or you can rear it to a certain point and then let it take its chance in the wild, to have around a 40 per cent chance of being shot on the wing the following winter.
If I was a bird, I thing I know which one I'd choose!
And, as for jobs, as someone who shoots, I have no problem in accepting the figures from the survey which, although commissioned by the CLA and BASC, was not carried out by them.
What is odd is that the BBC considers it newsworthy, as the information has been on the BASC website for about three years

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Ernest
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 04:02 PM

Richard, I agree that a good shot causes lhe least suffering (The kind of coursing where you hunt down a fox with a pack of hounds and riders is not considered ethical among hunters here in Germany, btw).

Still I don`t get why shooting foxes is different from shooting birds. With the poultry in modern farms foxes don`t get much of a chance to get them. Different with cormorants and fish-farms, maybe?

The real important about hunting is not about necessity but about the ecological effects: does hunting endanger the species? With the modern way of hunting which includes wildlife-management in the sense of conservation of the species it won`t. Nowadays species become extinct because humankind is destroying their habitats. And I don`t talk about farmers or hunters here: it is the general population`s demands for cheap food, clothing, heating, teak garden furniture etc. ...
Best
Ernest

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 04:27 PM

Because you need to kill foxes. You mostly don't need to kill wild birds.

Cash crop birds can be killed more efficiently and with less pain to them by electrocution - and you don't shoot them anyway!

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Ernest
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 04:41 PM

Do I understand you correctly Richard: you need foxes to prevent them from killing your poultry before you can kill them yourself?

So why is killing poultry better than killing pheasants or ducks? All are edible?

And pardon: I am not familiar with the term "cash crop birds" - is this poultry?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: GUEST,Ibo
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 05:22 PM

All fox hunters are pompous inbred idiots who think more of themselves than anything else on this earth.Get a life you gits and let nature take its course.If we were not on this planet the rest of nature would manage itself very well.Oh,and farmers,just build better fences to protect your stock.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 05:27 PM

WTF?

A cash crop is, well, a cash crop.

If a fox eats it it is a cash loss, geddit?

Duck for the table---reared in captivity.

Pheasant for the table - largely reared in captivity.

Rabbit for the table - largely reared in captivity.

What do you need to shoot it for? Fun?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 06:05 PM

If they really want to kill foxes, why don't they go hunting at night like the foxes do. I bet theres not many musicians who don't see foxes coming home late at night. Also the town foxes are are fat and slow, they lumber round from one fast food outlet to the next.

Most of them just stare at you, sort of bewildered - what the hell are you doing round this time of night - this is my time. You could probably catch them with a tin of kennomeat, a butterfly net and a paper bag. You wouldn't need all them dogs and horses and things.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: GUEST,IBO
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 06:27 PM

i like you weelittledrummer,foxes are lovely to look at and i see very few in my lifetime.If they are an incredible nuisance why dont i see more after my late night gigging

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 06:43 PM

Strange that Mrs Shanbles remarked as we came home from our session tonight that we have not seen as many foxes lately as we usially do.

Graham you are addressing an ex slaughterman.

Yes we should all be prepared to kill and see killed the things we eat.

But there is not any justifcation for killing only for our selfish pleasure.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 07:33 PM

That's the point. it's that certain people kill for FUN. It doesn't matter what it is they kill, they have rituals and take pleasure in the blood letting. We all know where that leads. I'll bet the guards at Buchenwald were all enthusiastic boar hunters.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Gervase
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 09:23 PM

Yes and Hitler was a vegetarian...yawn

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Paul Burke
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 03:42 AM

I'd dispute that hunting contributes anything significant to the rural economy. The problems of the countryside are simple to state and hard to fix- jobs, housing, transport, schooling, entertainment (particularly for the young), pollution, traffic, etc.

Hunting provides a few, usually low- paid, jobs in some areas, but the bulk of the problem is the result of the long-term collapse of agricultural employment due to mechanisation, and the replacement of steady jobs by casual cheap labour. And aas a corollary, the collapse of the rural commercial infrastructure like shops and service industries, caused by easy (car) transport to towns with their supermarkets and so on.

There is an unremarked crisis in small country towns, as shops and services close down, the premises usually being converted to yet more housing for commuting incomers, who have little social or commercial connection with their new country home, and whose high incomes are spent elsewhere and so contribute nothing to the local economy.

If the Countryside Alliars had had any interest in the countryside as other than a place to hunt, they would have brought these issues to the fore. But they are a one- issue campaign, and for the English countryside it is the wrong issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Gervase
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 05:31 AM

Sorry, I thought this thread was about shooting rather than hunting? Far more people in rural areas are involved in shooting than in hunting - not just as economic dependents but as active participants. Trouble is, it's tarred with many of the preconceptions that get lobbed at hunting.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Grab
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 05:44 AM

Shooting bird (usually) not necessary - so don't do it

Problem is that these birds (and deer too) aren't domesticated and mostly wouldn't adapt to being kept in a barn. Catching fish is not necessary either from the PoV of keeping yourself or your possessions safe, but I'd be prepared to bet everything I own that you've had a fish supper at some point in your life. ;-)

Fair enough Shambles, I wasn't aware of that. And I'd agree that you shouldn't kill what you're not going to eat (unless it's a serious pest/predator). But I see no problem with taking pleasure in hunting effectively - basically pleasure in a job well done.

Paul, you're right about these problems, and I think the Countryside Alliance *do* worry about this. It's only "unremarked" by Westminster, where it's not enough of a vote-loser for the buggers to do anything (like provide proper transport links for rural communities).

As you say though, it's hard to fix. Given the current state of the agricultural economy, an awful lot of farmers have realised that leisure activities are a profitable sideline (often subsidising the main business of farming which may be break-even at best). If you axe these profitable activities, the farmers may well go under. For all the farmers that lost their livelihoods during foot-and-mouth, in a bunch of cases itwasn't foot-and-mouth itself that killed them, it was lack of tourists. And lack of tourists also killed off a whole lot of other rural businesses.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Paul Burke
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 06:17 AM

Gervase, shooting is often the only use the commuters/ green welly brigade have for the countryside. No, you can't save the countryside by turning it into an Archers theme park, with shoots and golf courses for the SUV mob. The only possible solution is through a reinvigoration of agriculture, the imposition on commuters of the real costs of their transport, and the reconstruction of a meaningful rural economy in which the inhabitants interact economically with each other, not via the mediation of Sainsbury's 20 miles away. The French realised that decades ago, that's why they are so keen on agricultural subsidies.

As for death sports generally, let's get this straight- civilised people don't kill things for fun. Remember, that's one of the "charges" made against the fox. Kill to eat if you must, kill to protect yourself, kill to maintain the balance of stocks, kill for hygiene.

Conceded that shooting at birds reared for the shoot is better than the usual Continental way of popping off at anything that moves. But if you like to play with things that go bang, shoot clay rhinos.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 06:18 AM

well they could still wear red coats and chase after foxes with butterfly nets, tins of kennomeat, and paper bags. twould be a grand sight.

I am at a loss to know why you don't see foxes after late night gigging. where do you gig? I thought everybody did. Once I saw an owl and wrote a song and essay about it - its on my website. Once I saw a badger, galloping along at the side of the road. Great big Sandy coloured bum. Mary de Ville (performance poet) swears she saw the beast of Bodmin.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: The PA
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 06:21 AM

Guest Ibo,

"All fox hunters are pompous inbred idiots, Oh,and farmers,just build better fences to protect your stock."

You obviously know absolutely nothing about the countryside, and if you claim to, well you've just made yourself sound completely foolish. Anyone who makes such idiotic sweeping statements is simply not worth discussing the subject with!

We are constantly renewing fences which are damaged and not by locals. We know how important good fencing is. National Hunt race horses also spend time on exercise and training while out hunting. But of course Ibo, you'd know all that wouldn't you, being an expert. Oh and I do object to being described as inbred. That is not only an insult to me but my family, not what the mudcat is for!

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Gervase
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 06:46 AM

shooting is often the only use the commuters/ green welly brigade have for the countryside. No, you can't save the countryside by turning it into an Archers theme park, with shoots and golf courses for the SUV mob
I dunno what sort of shoots you attend, but it ain't like that on mine. They tend to be run by and for local people of all backgrounds (though predominantly agricultural).
As for killing things for fun - that's a trickier one. I do enjoy shooting, but the actual killing of the quarry isn't the whole point. It's an area where loftier minds than mind have struggled, but I suppose one can see it as a connection in the Forsterean sense with one's quarry; an atavistic feeling, to be sure, but one which connects the table and the field with the eater and the hunter.
I don't get the same connection from standing in the meat aisle of Tesco (or Waitrose) and looking a pallid lines of shrink-wrapped carcasses which have emerged sanitised and stripped of all associations from some factory. Someone like Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall is probably better able to articulate this than me,
It's an area where, I fear, the shooter and the anti will never meet.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Paul Burke
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 07:07 AM

Do you make up the stuff for Pseud's Corner in Private Eye? :)

You are right on the level that all meat eating, use of leather or bone or horn etc, involves killing animals. But I'm saying there's a huge difference between killing because you have to, and killing for the sake of enjoying it. Meat in this country is an unhealthy mess, and people ought to connect more with the processes by which it is produced. I suspect that there'd be a lot more veggies around if they did, even if only because humanely produced meat would be a LOT more expensive. But I can't see hunting non- meat animals or shooting birds as helping.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 07:54 AM

It's an area where loftier minds than mind have struggled, but I suppose one can see it as a connection in the Forsterean sense with one's quarry; an atavistic feeling, to be sure, but one which connects the table and the field with the eater and the hunter.

When the hunted is equally armed to shoot back - the feeling you struggle to describe may be just blind terror.

Have you ever tried paintball?

I remember when every other kid in the area seemed to have capapults and were skilled at hunting and killing songbirds. I suspect for pretty much the same feeling as you struggle to describe. Only they did not try to justify it as their right, as them saving the countryside or providing employment.

I eventually got one too and after much failed stalking through the young elms that then covered the local railway embankment, I did managed to hit and kill a young blackbird. As I held and admired the the limp form in my hand, I felt totally ashamed and have never killed anything for fun again.

This need may be in all of us but perhaps it is something that most of us do grow out of?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 09:16 AM

I hunt and target shoot. Most of my hunting was in the past, and today I rarely get out into the fields and woods due to illness.
My entire family are archers,target shooters, or hunters. We enjoy games of skill (including golf). My job for the last 20 years has been hunting for people lost at sea, and sometimes overland. I have dedicated my life to saving lives not taking them.

The thrill of the hunt is something that never leaves you. Killing is to have hunted. Game is something you cannot buy in shops. In rural parts of Canada and America wild game is as much a part of staple diet as store bought meat is to city folk. There is something infinately exciting about providing a meal of fresh caught fish and game. For those who cannot understand this type of life I feel pity.

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: GUEST,Bee
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 12:22 PM

I don't hunt. But I second Dave on the common inclusion of wild caught or killed fish and game in the rural diet in Canada. Rural areas here are not doing well economically. Anyone who hunts and comes home with a large animal (deer, moose) or a lot of geese or ducks generally passes the meat out among friends and neighbours, and it is welcome. Store meat is expensive (and so are vegetables, as a matter of fact). A few kilos of free meat can mean paying a bill that week instead of spending the cash at a grocery.

That said, whoever decided wild fish-eating ducks were edible must have been very hungry indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 12:56 PM

The thrill of the hunt is something that never leaves you.

The thrill of killing wild things (that can't shoot back) for fun is something that has certainly left me. Perhaps it is time it left you?

But if the thrill of the hunt never leaves us - are there ways you can still have this thrill without needing to kill anything for fun?

Many children who started out by collecting wild birds eggs can still use these skills by bird-watching and scientific study and the thrill of stalking your wild quarry in order photograph them for fun is perhaps a lot more preferable to killing them for fun?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Gervase
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 02:00 PM

But I can't see hunting non- meat animals or shooting birds as helping
Agreed - I wouldn't shoot something I wouldn't eat, and I don't approve of those that do.
That said, I've accounted for countless rabbits, pigeons, pheasants, partridges, ducks and a few geese in my time, and have enjoyed both the pursuit and the eating of every one.
I'm a lot happier doing that than I would be buying something anonymous in a supermarket. When it comes to meat, I like to know where it came from and how it was produced. Which reminds me - time to cart two barren ewes off to the slaughterhouse before the tup goes in. Plenty of mutton on the way!

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: GUEST,Bee
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 02:05 PM

If you wear cotton clothing, you are in part responsible for the wholesale killing of literally millions (if not billions) of small mammals, birds, reptiles, insects, directly by agricultural poisons and machinery, and indirectly by massive destruction of habitat. Consider that almost six billion people wear cotton, and consider the amount of acreage of cotton fields that requires. In fact, all agriculture kills wild creatures, or displaces them permanently. Various ground nesting birds (for example) disappear entirely from farmland, wiped out by cutting machines.

Vegetarians and vegans are as responsible as meat eaters for endless animal suffering and death when human impact in general is considered. The number of creatures killed by hunters is tiny in comparison to the numbers killed by agriculture, petroleum use, draining of swamps, burning of forests, building of highways and cities, industrial chemicals, and on and on.

As far as the rest of life on earth is concerned, humans are a devastating killing plague. Species are becoming extinct at a great and increasing rate, and hunters have little to do with that. You might point at the despicable hunting of rare animals for ridiculous cures, but the animals at risk are rare more because of habitat loss than poaching. The poachers are just finishing the job.

Killing an animal you intend to eat is one way of directly facing your human impact on animals. In my opinion it can be a very honest undertaking, and most of the hunters I know are very honest about how they feel about the animal they kill. I'm not so honest, myself, as I don't hunt but am willing to eat game meats.

Trophy hunting and hunting from planes seems to me a frivolous waste of animal life. I don't approve. But it seems senseless and hypocritical to single out food hunters as depraved examples of humanity while wearing a pair of jeans and a cotton shirt.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 02:16 PM

But it seems senseless and hypocritical to single out food hunters as depraved examples of humanity while wearing a pair of jeans and a cotton shirt.

It probably would if anyone was doing that.

The main thrust here seems to be to try and justify the killing of wild animals for fun as being of some great benefit - in order not to be prevented from be able to continue to indulge in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Gervase
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 03:48 PM

No, not of great benefit. Just as the making of music is of no great benefit. Tell you what - you stick to Radio 2 and Classic FM for your music, and I'll stick to the supermarkets for my meat. Then we'll both probably be approaching the issue from the same direction.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: GUEST,Bee
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 03:48 PM

"justify the killing of wild animals for fun" I'd include that as trophy hunting, I think.

However, it's my opinion (and observation) that the joy many hunters experience is rather more complex than 'fun'. I am speaking from a Canadian experience, of course. The UK is a vast foriegn culture, and I don't know what constitutes hunting there, other than what one reads about fox-hunting (which is done here with no involvement of foxes, just a smelly bait dragged over the course).

The hunters I know are shocked and disgusted by such things as 'canned hunts', which are no mre than plain abattoir style slaughter, involving no skill and no real confrontation with prey animals.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: GUEST,CharleyR
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 03:55 PM

"Vegetarians and vegans are as responsible as meat eaters for endless animal suffering and death when human impact in general is considered. The number of creatures killed by hunters is tiny in comparison to the numbers killed by agriculture, petroleum use, draining of swamps, burning of forests, building of highways and cities, industrial chemicals, and on and on."

I don't agree that vegetarians and vegans are 'as responsible as meat eaters' for animal suffering and death given the enormous numbers of animals created, used and killed for food in this country and others (see info below, if you're interested). And I bet if there were more vegetarians and vegans among the people who control the forest burning, use of industrial chemicals and so on, there'd be a lot less of it.

But back to the original topic - it's just a shame that there are people out there who take pleasure in the killing of other living creatures. Whether or not they should be prevented from doing so I really don't know, it's just unfortunate the situation exists at all. And while it's true that the animals who are killed through shooting do have a better life than those kept in factory farms and killed, it's not really much of a comparison, is it?


"800 million animals are slaughtered anually in the UK.

The vast majority of these animals will have spent their brief lives in the cramped, distressing conditions of the factory farm. Their close confinement and the overworking of their bodies will have led to increased susceptibility to injury and disease. They will have been reared on an unnatural diet designed to increase productivity and many will have undergone various painful and traumatic procedures.

Those that make it to the slaughterhouse (and many do not - dying of neglect, exposure, disease, and starvation) must endure a final journey in over-crowded, under-ventilated vehicles, by land or sea, before they are killed and butchered.

Dairy cows and laying hens are amongst the most ill-treated of all farm-animals. With their bodies being viewed as factories for food production, they are often over-worked and neglected. When they have been worked to the point of exhaustion, they end their days in the same way as those raised solely for the meat trade. No farm animal can avoid the slaughterhouse and the plate."

- taken from The Vegan Society website

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: GUEST,CharleyR
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 04:08 PM

There is something infinately exciting about providing a meal of fresh caught fish and game. For those who cannot understand this type of life I feel pity.

I can see how people could take pleasure from doing this, but you don't need to feel pity for people who don't do it. Some people have an alternative sense of satisfaction with the way they provide their food, a sense of peacefulness that comes from being able to cook tasty, nutritious food that as far as possible did not require any living creatures to suffer and die just so that they could satisfy their appetites. I don't want to say that either approach here is 'better' than the other, just wanted to point out that no-one need feel sorry for me or others as non-hunters.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: GUEST,Bee
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 04:35 PM

Charley, you'll get no argument from me regarding food animals needing far better treatment. But I very much doubt the majority of vegans/vegetarians are really aware of how damaging their own lifestyle is to the planet. And perhaps you know a circle of very concerned vegans - many of the ones I know live in the city, drive cars, own lots of technology (the newest, therefore their older gear has gone to landfill, most likely), and seem to think stuff like their clothing and the plastic and metal they use comes from fairyland.

Perhaps that's not really fair: one could say at least they are doing something about that section of factory agriculture that involves animals.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 05:28 PM

No, not of great benefit. Just as the making of music is of no great benefit.

You carry on killing wild animals for fun and I will carry on making music for my benefit and for the benefit those who say they appreciate it.

But please don't carry on trying these bogus attempts to make out that you do this for anything more than your own selfish pleasure.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 09:18 PM

There has been some excellent discussion on this thread but I fear that there have been some phrases which have been misread or misconstrued.
GUEST 28 Sep 07.33 introduced the word FUN, seemingly having understood it to be synonymous with "pleasure". The noun "fun" seems to have been accepted by many subsequent posters in the sense of jocularity.

Grab 29 Sep 05.44 defined the attitude of country sportsmen as "taking pleasure in hunting - a job well done."

Dave (the ancient mariner)29 Sep 09.16 said "There is something infinately exciting about providing a meal of fresh caught fish and game. For those who cannot understand this type of life I feel pity."
Guest CharleyR 29 Sep 0408 pm said "I can see how people could take pleasure from doing this, but you don't need to feel pity for people who don't do it."
I can understand his remarks as there is a particular pleasure in killing a creature, preparing it, cooking and serving it at table. It is the same pleasure that a person would feel growing their own vegetables and eating them.

The pleasure these people feel is that of the craftsman - a job done with all the skill that they can manage. It gives no pleasure to any craftsman to see a poorly performed job. The craft of stalking your prey in an environment totally foreign to you but is the natural habitat of the prey. The craft of using your tool, be it rod or gun, to the best of your ability. The craft of despatching your quarry with as clean a kill as is possible. Man is a natural hunter, it is just that the skills of hunting, like so many other skills, have been lost by the majority of the town-dwelling population.

I can sympathise with The Shambles, who I don't think I have met but generally find worth listening to. He, having worked in an abattoir, has seen sights of which most of us would have nightmares. Let's face it, even the supermarkets have removed those lovely posters showing from which part of which animal the cuts of meat come! The public seems to have an aversion to likening their Sunday joint to cow, pig or sheep!

How many of the detractors of shooting will happily carry their rods and a ton of equipment to a river bank and then return to the water anything that they catch? Is this not much more cruel than killing something for the pot? There was coment on TV News a couple of weeks ago from some Angling Society member, complaining about some Eastern European chaps who were fishing "his" waters and taking home any fish that they caught! Is that not the point of fishing?

Colyn.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Gervase
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 09:58 AM

But please don't carry on trying these bogus attempts to make out that you do this for anything more than your own selfish pleasure.
...and that of my family and friends, who eat the results, of course. I don't think they regard pigeon pie, rabbit casserole, game soup or roast pheasant as 'bogus'.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 10:08 AM

I don't think they regard pigeon pie, rabbit casserole, game soup or roast pheasant as 'bogus'.

Perhaps you should serve them up every wild animal you take pleasure in killing? Like foxes and rats?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Gervase
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 12:31 PM

I think they'd rather eat the lamb and mutton that results from not having a hungry old dog fox living at the top of the main field. I don't rear sheep to feed the fox, and I don't think you'll find a sheep farmer who wouldn't shoot a fox.
And, as for rats, are you saying you'd 'live and let live' with rodents in your house? I didn't take you for a Jain!

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 12:32 PM

I have never hunted for a trophy and do not enjoy seeing animals stuffed and mounted. Perhaps some people find pleasure in the stalking and collecting of a trophy animal, but personally I don't.

There is a lot of conservation work put into making game preserves that also allow for game hunting and trophy animals. The financing is supported by hunters and the fees go to enhancing this practise. Controlled hunting is not the enemy, it is the poachers and those that hunt illegally for animal parts to serve the Asian markets, that cause the most damage. The should, and are punished severely.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 12:49 PM

No its not more cruel.

Most anglers are gentle and appreciative of fish. In sea fishing the usual thing is to chuck them in a bucket, and if they're big fish they can be gasping for a very long time. Having said that I'm not an angler.

I used to enjoy sea fishing til I realised how cruel it was. I could bore you with the tale, of my road to damascus conversion. I still eat fish - so yes, I'm a hypocrite. But at least nowadays I don't kill them just for the pleasure of it.

I don't jump on snails either.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 03:20 PM

Animal hunting a pastime for the moronic, as confirmed above. I have got to say i am horrified by those members there who think they have a right to kill animals for pleasure, and lets not try and disguise it as something else. Worse still when I see the news reports with children also supporting the countryside alliance i have to ask myself what kind of mentality do people have to bring up their children to think that being cruel to animals is the 'norm'and ok. It is not, and anyone in their right mind would see that. I guess these people were not brought up with the same values as myself and even without being told ,I knew in my heart it was wrong. I think people who support the killings are nothing more than sick twisted people. You can moan all you like, the law is now in place, tough !

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Gervase
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 04:18 PM

Funny how people can't seem to tell the difference between hunting and shooting. isn't it? Mention of one generates the pavlovian response to the other.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 04:34 PM

Ten Brent Geese tagged in Ireland to monitor their migration to Greenland didn`t all make it, five met their fate at the hands of their killers in Greenland, although one of the gormless bastards returned a leg of an unfortunate bird complete with monitor.