Origins: Twa Corbies / Three Ravens / etc.

Subject: RE: Origins: Twa Corbies / Three Ravens / etc.
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Nov 18 - 04:36 PM

MacColl's melody was published by Frank Kidson in "Traditional Tunes" in 1891.

Kidson relates that his informant, “Mr. John Holmes of Roundhay,” learned “The Three Ravens” “about 1825 from his mother’s singing…in a remote village among the Derbyshire hills, most aptly named Stony Middleton.”

Subject: RE: Origins: Twa Corbies / Three Ravens / etc.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Nov 18 - 09:39 PM

Here are two MacColl recordings of the song. Unfortunately, the videos may not play outside the U.S. (wish they'd figure out an agreement that would remedy that):

• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Cvu9915dIc
• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvrPEXWuGmo

Subject: RE: Origins: Twa Corbies / Three Ravens / etc.
From: GUEST,Tony Fisk
Date: 17 Nov 18 - 05:28 AM

Excellent news! Thanks for your help, both... I am free of copyright worries now.

Subject: RE: Origins: Twa Corbies / Three Ravens / etc.
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 17 Nov 18 - 07:33 AM

Three ravens sat upon a tree, head down? How strange! The lady must be from that old Norman family Montdegraine.

Subject: RE: Origins: Twa Corbies / Three Ravens / etc.
From: Reinhard
Date: 17 Nov 18 - 08:05 AM

Joe, both MacColl videos play fine here in Germany. Maybe some of the restrictions aren't enforced anymore?

Subject: RE: Origins: Twa Corbies / Three Ravens / etc.
From: GUEST,Tony Fisk
Date: 17 Nov 18 - 08:59 AM

Both of those YT links work for me in the UK...

Subject: RE: Origins: Twa Corbies / Three Ravens / etc.
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 03:27 PM

had long noted the similarity of the Twa Corbies melody and a popular Breton folkdance tune. But I thought the tune went far back in the history of British folkmusic. How disillusioned I am to be told that Steeleye Span borrowed the Breton tune to set the Twa Corbies lyrics to. I was looking conformation of that attribution and I see from this thread that Jean Redpath recorded the Twa Corbies with Breton air before Steeleye Span, and that Jim McLean says that "Morris Blythman AKA Thurso Berwick set The Twa Corbies to the Breton tune Al Alarc'h sometime in the fifties." In another Mudcat thread, Malcolm Douglas wrote in Apr 2000 that the song was set to Al Alarch'h in the 1960s and that there are different opinions as to who set the lyrics to that tune.

https://folkhistory.blogspot.com/2013/11/twa-corbies-as-deconstructionist-ballad.html

The author suggests that the Twa Corbies was composed as a parody of or rebuttal of the sentimentality of The Two Ravens ballad.

Subject: RE: Origins: Twa Corbies / Three Ravens / etc.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Dec 19 - 05:23 AM

There is no serious evidence to suggest the choice of the Breton tune was due to anyone but Morris Blythman. He got it from a Breton piper and wrote down the circumstances - his description was published though I forget where. It caught on immediately in the Scottish folk scene.

The Breton tune has an irregular rhythm with variable bar lengths, and The Twa Corbies used to be sung that way in Scotland. I used to sing it, and Blythman's widow told me I was doing it the same way he did. But it's more often done with a metronomic rocked-up rumpty-tumpty beat these days - can we blame Steeleye Span for that? (I've never heard their version, and for that matter I don't think I've heard any of their stuff in 30 years).

Subject: RE: Origins: Twa Corbies / Three Ravens / etc.
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 29 Dec 19 - 08:19 AM

thanks for the confirmation (I'm taking the opportunity to correct my typo)< Jack

Subject: RE: Origins: Twa Corbies / Three Ravens / etc.
From: Jim McLean
Date: 31 Dec 19 - 07:02 AM

Yes, I'm afraid Malcolm was wrong ... very unusual for such a brilliant and knowledgable man.
The facts are simple, Morris found the tune and Ray Fisher got it from him sometime in the very late 1950s.

Subject: RE: Origins: Twa Corbies / Three Ravens / etc.
From: Jim McLean
Date: 31 Dec 19 - 07:16 AM

At this time of the year the Kings Choir Cambridge often sing the Vaughan Williams arrangement of "The Truth Sent from Above".
I have always thought this melody very similar to the Breton melody discovered by Morris Blythman and some research turned up the connection with tune AKA "The Hertfordshire Carol" with Wales, Cornwall and Brittany.
Very interesting!

Subject: RE: Origins: Twa Corbies / Three Ravens / etc.
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 31 Dec 19 - 09:41 AM

Hi Jim
Somewhat confused about your statement that 'Malcolm was wrong'. What exactly, in his 2 posts in 2004, did he get wrong? I don't see any reference by Malcolm to Morris or Ray.

Subject: RE: Origins: Twa Corbies / Three Ravens / etc.
From: Jim McLean
Date: 31 Dec 19 - 01:40 PM

Hi Steve,
There are two threads running at the moment about the Twa Corbies. Malcolm reckoned the Breton tune was set to the lyrics sometime in the 1960s and was confused as to who set it, mentioning Ray Fisher.

Subject: RE: Origins: Twa Corbies / Three Ravens / etc.
From: Jim McLean
Date: 31 Dec 19 - 01:43 PM

Steve,
On the thread below, Twa Corbies, dated 2000, Malcolm says the song was fitted in the 1960s.

Subject: RE: Origins: Twa Corbies / Three Ravens / etc.
From: Jim McLean
Date: 31 Dec 19 - 01:46 PM

Steve, further on in the same thread, Malcolm is in agreement that Ray Fisher "could be the knitter" of time and lyric.

Subject: RE: Origins: Twa Corbies / Three Ravens / etc.
From: Jim McLean
Date: 31 Dec 19 - 01:48 PM

Sorry "tune and lyric"

Subject: RE: Origins: Twa Corbies / Three Ravens / etc.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 07:50 PM

This is a different one. From Alexander Gray's "Ballads and Folk-Songs, Chiefly from Heine" (1920). It's a translation from the German of Mosen (who?). Looks like Mosen started with Scott's song and took it off to somewhere totally different.

The Corbies' Sang
Zwei Raben flogen um einen Stein

Twa corbies flew aboot a stane,
And aye they scraighed and made their maen.

Quo' ane, as they sat there their lane:
"Cummer, let's flee to the corbie-stane.

I ken o' a bonnie heid that's there;
The cauld wind blaws through its yallow hair."

The ither spak, and piked a bane:
"I winna flee to the corbies' stane.

An ill-daein' limmer's aucht that heid;
There's a lang road yet she maun gang wi'd.

She put her bairnie oot o' sicht;
She'll need her heid this mony a nicht.

Her lover had pairt in the deidly wrang;
She'll need her heid this mony a lang.

He lichtlie brok the aith her swore;
She maun gae by nicht and chap at his door.

She maun gae to his door when the knock stricks twel',
And speak o' the glame that lowes in Hell.

Till the curse frae the limmer's heid is ta'en,
We corbies daurna pike her een."

Subject: RE: Origins: Twa Corbies / Three Ravens / etc.
From: Reinhard
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 01:10 AM

Julius Mosen (1803-1867) was a German poet. He is now remembered mostly for his patriotic poem the Andreas-Hofer-Lied, which is the official anthem of the Austrian State of Tyrol.

This is his...

Rabenlied (1843)

Zwei Raben flogen um einen Stein,
Die hörten nicht aus mit ihrem Schrei'n,

Der Eine sprach zum Gesellen sein:
Komm' fliege mit mir zum Rabenstein!

Auf hohem Rade da stecket ein Kopf,
Die Winde spielen mit dem Schopf.

Der andre sprach zum Gesellen sein:
Ich fliege nicht mit zum Rabenstein.

Der Kopf gehört 'ner Dirne an,
Die braucht ihn noch selber und muß ihn ha'n.

Sie hat ihr Kindlein umgebracht,
Sie brauchet das Haupt noch manche Nacht.

An ihrem Tod hat ihr Buhle Theil,
Sie brauchet das Haupt noch manche Weil'.

Er hat den Eid gebrochen entzwei,
Sie muß ihn mahnen an seine Treu'.

Ein Bann ist an ihren Kopf gethan;
Wir armen Raben, wir dürfen nicht d'ran.

Subject: RE: Origins: Twa Corbies / Three Ravens / etc.
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 06:11 AM

There seems to be some confusion over origin of Scott's 'Twa Corbies'. Like many an item in the Minstrelsy we can never be sure how much of each ballad owes itself to the pen of his contributors or indeed to his own pen. However as that particular composition has no evidence of existence prior to the Minstrelsy, those of us with a sceptical nature will give it the likely date of c1800.

Subject: RE: Origins: Twa Corbies / Three Ravens / etc.
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 06:36 AM

I ought to acknowledge the evidence regarding Sharpe claiming to have 'collected' it. See Malcolm's post of 01.04 12.12 AM. That doesn't stop me being sceptical about a solitary song with no corroboration.

Subject: RE: Origins: Twa Corbies / Three Ravens / etc.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 06:49 AM

It has the kind of black cynicism that would have appealed to Sharpe (more so than to Scott), which makes that attribution a bit more plausible.

Subject: RE: Origins: Twa Corbies / Three Ravens / etc.
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 10:03 AM

Not many people have ever heard of Sharpe, Jack, never mind knowing anything about him. That puts you in a very useful position. What little I've read makes me see him as some sort of ballad broker along with David Laing, Laing travelling about the country passing ballads back and forth. Both collaborated on getting Buchan's highly suspect material through the press. Either they were part of the conspiracy or very naïve, or had some other motive.

Most of the current academic attitudes to the Scottish ballads is that the great bulk of them were written during the 18th century, and a few even later. Do you have any thoughts on this?

Subject: RE: Origins: Twa Corbies / Three Ravens / etc.
From: Jeff Keller
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 05:14 PM

We yanks love Jon Heslop's "Dead Knight Behind the Hedge" (posted above), but we favor an alternate title: "A Cornish Pastiche". :-)

Subject: RE: Origins: Twa Corbies / Three Ravens / etc.
From: Snuffy
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 03:51 AM

Or even a corny pastiche?

Subject: RE: Origins: Twa Corbies / Three Ravens / etc.
From: Tradsinger
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 07:25 AM

No-one has mentioned the pub versions that have shown up in recent years, often to hymn tunes or "Banks and Braes". A typical start might be:

There were 3 crows sat on a tree and they were black as black could be.

Said one old crow unto his mate "What shall we have this day to ate (sic)."

I have collected 6 versions so far in Hampshire and Gloucestershire and also a couple of bawdy versions from members of the Royal Navy. My theory is that they came (back) into England via the 19th Century black-face minstrel shows.

Tradsinger

Subject: RE: Origins: Twa Corbies / Three Ravens / etc.
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 08:12 AM

Hi Gwilym

I'd guess more likely later than that, with WWI soldiers. I have several late 19th century printed American versions.

Subject: RE: Origins: Twa Corbies / Three Ravens / etc.
From: Tradsinger
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 09:29 AM

Could be, Steve. Never thought of that.

Subject: RE: Origins: Twa Corbies / Three Ravens / etc.
From: and e
Date: 10 Jun 23 - 08:57 AM

THE TWO CROWS
(A South-Idaho Version)

There were two crows sat in a tree,
In a tree;
There were two crows sat in a tree,
In a tree;
There were two crows sat in a tree,
In a tree;
As black as any crows could be,
Crows could be.

The one crow whispered to his mate,
To his mate;
The one crow whispered to his mate,
To his mate;
The one crow whispered to his mate,
To his mate;
"Have you seen anything to eat,
Thing to eat?"

"There lies a horse in yonder field,
Yonder field;
There lies a horse in yonder field,
Yonder field;
There lies a horse in yonder field,
Yonder field;
And they we'll have a merry meal,
Merry meal."

"We'll perch upon his old backbone,
Old backbone;
We'll perch upon his old backbone,
Old backbone;
We'll perch upon his old backbone,
Old backbone;
And peck his eyes out one be one,
One by one!"

Pg 20, Songs and Ballads: Folk Material and Old Favorites, undated [c1933].
 

See online here:

https://archive.org/details/1933-1972jameskennethlarson/page/n19/mode/1up

 

Subject: RE: Origins: Twa Corbies / Three Ravens / etc.
From: GUEST,Julia L
Date: 17 Jun 23 - 09:19 AM

Here's one from a singer in CT who learned from her grandmother in Maine
Ancient Ballads Traditionally Sung in New England by Helen Hartness Flanders
Volume 1 page 246

B variant - The Two Crows
Mrs. G. C. Erskine of Cheshire, CT sang this “glee piece” as learned from her grandmother, Orinda Townsend, of Dixfield, Maine (born 1828) H.H. F. Collector, October 1, 1939

There were two crows sat on a tree
Hi-dum die-dum derry I-O
There were two crows sat on a tree
Hi, derry O
There were two crows sat on a tree
And they were black as crows could be
Hi-dum die-dum derry I-O

(For succeeding stanzas follow pattern of first stanza)

Said one old crow unto his mate
“What shall we have for grub to ate?”

“There lies a horse on yonder plain
‘T is just six weeks since he was slain”

We’ll sit upon his bare backbone
And pick his eyes out one by one

“There comes a lady full of woe
She’s full of grief as she can go”

She sat down by the horse’s side
And for the love of his rider died.