BS: much talk about Muslims

Subject: BS: much talk about Muslims
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 06:23 PM

Firstly understand I do not feel I am not a racist and do not wish to offend, but is anybody else sick and tired of newspapers reporting on muslims?

Everyday in every newspaper there is always an article on how some group of muslims are offended by blah blah blah. In the UK television news every night shows Muslims demanding charges against this one and that one and always "feel deeply offended".

Why has this only come about in the last few years ?
If any of us visit a Muslim country we respect their laws and traditions.

I am old enough to remember when Muslims lived among us and never felt there was a problem.

Subject: RE: BS: much talk about Muslims
From: Nickhere
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 07:25 PM

Hi Guest,

I don't know if this fully answers your question but newspapers tend to graze like the large herds of old, following the fresh grass wherever it grows best. Muslims were not particularly 'newsworthy' until of late (which is probably why you remember them living away quietly in your community years ago). But in the last 5-10 years, certain 'western administrations' (obvious examples being the Bush-Blair axis) have set themselves on a collision course with much of the Muslim middle east. Historically this is nothing so new, it goes all the way back to the Crusades etc., But since the oil crisis of the 1970s, it has developed a new sense of urgency.

The Middle east's Muslims quite simply happen to have the misfortune of sitting on the world's largest reserves of crude oil. As you know, western economy and life as we know it, would simply not be possible without this stuff. It is not enough for some people that the OPEC countries are willing to export the oil for use, some governments sadly do not feel secure unless they actually control that oil directly. There are two main risks to oil: 1) the price: OPEC countries could put up the price at any time (as they did in the 1970s when they realised they were being paid WAY too little per barrel). This would have big consequences - as we have seen at petrol pumps etc., even in recent times. 2) supply: two things could happen here - a staunchly anti-western Islamic government could get into power and refuse to export oil to the west (plenty of other customers), i.e use it as a bargaining chip to force uncomfotable foreign-policy changes. Or an oil hungry country like China might overrun the region itself and hog the supplies. I know this last explanation sounds fanciful, but 'all's fair in love in war' and we are heading toward an era where there will be stiffer and stiffer competition for whatever resources are available, and if it's a question of survival of a way of life, most countries would be willing to go to war.

It is 'nightmare' scenarios like these that send leaders like Bush into 'pre-emptive' wars (read 'pre-emptive resource grabs') in places like Iraq. UK and US fears and foreign policy are helping radicalise Muslim populations (who see this kind of intervention as an actual attack and an attack on their culture). To put this feeling in perspective, imagine if London or Washington were full of Iranian or Afghani soldiers, manning checkpoints, stopping US or UK citizens, turning them back, bringing in Iranian comapnies to run US or UK businesses and 'manage' their resources, setting up a government known to be openly pro-Iranian and talking about bringing the enlightened benefits of Middle Eastern civilisation to the backward West etc., etc.,

All this in turn pushes Muslims onto front page news, and suddenly everyone is interested in them Leaders like Bush, Blair, Straw etc., are little by little alienating these populations - at home and in their own countries - and isolating them from the 'mainstream'. Our societies were supposed to be inclusive, but suddenly the UK or US Muslim is being seen as an enemy, a fifth column, his / her sympathies suspect, and pre-emptively harrassed. Something like this also happened during WW2 when thousands of US citizens of Japanese ethnic origin were locked up camps for the duration of the war, it being assumed these 'less than US' citizens would be disloyal. I'm not saying thousands of Muslims are being locked up at present, but they are being regarded automatically by some as the 'enemy', a stance which helps reveal both WASPS inherent racism and sense of superiority (I'm not saying ALL WASPS feel that way, either!!).

All the talk and media coverage of Muslims does help to generate the idea of them as being something alien, something different. And if we are to be conditioned into seeing them as an 'enemy' it helps to generate distance between the cultures. It's harder to fight against the people you know. In a sense that's what Straw and Bush are doing (wittingly or otherwise). Straw's comments about the veil being 'frightening and intimidating to some' speaks volumes about the hidden fears within 'western' culture of difference, despite decades of talk about pluralism. I suppose it's hard to change old habits, and these things run deeper than skin deep when the crisis comes.

Natrurally, Muslim communities, who previously were left alone and uncommented on, suddenly find themselves at the centre of a big debate on how they should conduct their lives. They in turn are sure to respond to the things they regard as eroding their beliefs, values and culture, as anyone would. Indeed, Christians and Muslims have a lot more in common and to gain by co-operation in repsonse to 'attacks' (the word may be a bit too strong in many cases) on their way of life and values. There are theological differences of course, but many of the values are actually shared.

Long answer, I know, and even at that it doesn't address many points. Hope it helps, though just my thoughts.

Subject: RE: BS: much talk about Muslims
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 01:08 AM

A thoughtful and interesting response, Nickhere. Well done.

I'm not sure if its not something of a reductio absurdum. I have heard Northern Ireland's problems expressed as purely an economic based spat over resources - the wicked English trying to appropriate the industrial core of the island of Ireland.

When there are profound differences of culture - bottom line they have to discover a basis for co-existence. Ignoring the differences, or saying it's all really about something else - how can it possibly help?

Jack Straw didn't say what he felt he had to say, because he wanted to steal oil.

Subject: RE: BS: much talk about Muslims
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 03:49 AM

Thank you Nickhere for that reply it makes a lot of sense.

Subject: RE: BS: much talk about Muslims
From: skipy
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 04:49 AM

Talk all you want, we are heading for civil war, thats a fact, only the date is not yet known.
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: much talk about Muslims
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 04:52 AM

tuesday week. 4pm.

Subject: RE: BS: much talk about Muslims
From: skipy
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 05:44 AM

I'll be there!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: much talk about Muslims
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 08:22 AM

No, but I sure am tired of the daily reporting of the pissing and moaning by fundamentalist "christians"(sic).

Subject: RE: BS: much talk about Muslims
From: Grab
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 08:34 AM

is anybody else sick and tired of newspapers reporting on muslims?

Yep. If the papers (and politicos) would quit picking on them as easy targets, we'd be in a much healthier position. As Nick says, simply being a devout Muslim is starting to be considered enough to make you a threat to society (Forest Gate is ample evidence of that), and that's some scary shit.

I fully agree with Jack Straw that actively opposing integration (burqas in Burnley, niqabs in Nuneaton and frightening priests in Finsbury Park) with your adopted country is bogus. But if you're quietly following your religious beliefs and not hassling anyone, then you shouldn't expect the kind of crap that's being dumped on them.

There's nothing wrong with a headscarf or a cloak/robes/sari, for example - Sikhs have turbans, Jews have skull-caps, and Christian nuns have their headscarves too. Yes, they show you're a bit different, but hell, isn't that the point of most clothes? For that matter, until *very* recently (like the last 50 or so years and certainly if you go back 100 years), any Brit (male or female) going out with their head uncovered would have been looked down on as underclass scum, and even now wearing a hat is usually considered an important part of a formal woman's outfit (weddings, Ascot, etc).

Is the problem that they want to convert people to Islam? Well if they're going to do it by quietly providing a good example to their neighbours, that works for me. Certainly better than the evangelical Christians shouting in town centres or cold-calling on doorsteps - I'd rather see religion as something arrived at following deep thought, not marketed like cheapjack double-glazing or timeshare salesmen. Most people won't be converted, because Britain is an intensely secular country. But a slight change in the demographic ain't a big deal. And contrary to Abu Hamza's bullshit about conversion at the point of a sword, all the Muslims I know are quite happy with them having their beliefs and everyone else having theirs.

Maybe there will be a civil war in the UK, but I doubt it. If there is though, it'll be between Muslim supporters and people who believe all Muslims are the enemy. And if so, count me in on the Muslim side...

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: much talk about Muslims
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 08:46 AM

Excellent discussion! I have two Muslim son-in-laws so I have a lot of contact with U.S. Muslims (95% American born.) The Muslim religion in this country has done a great deal to pull blacks out of a devastating spiral into illegal drugs and crime, by taking their faith into prisons and inner-city areas. The social stance of Muslims has changed dramatically over here since the sixties and the militant black power advocates. There is a sincere desire for living in brotherhood among most black muslims in this country. The prejudice here (other than lingering prejudice among some whites toward blacks) is toward anyone who looks like they might be Middle Eastern. They might be from the Middle East and be Jewish, or Christian or Atheist, but persuasion of beliefs isn't visible unless someone is wearing traditional clothing that identifies them.

I'm really pleased to see such an intelligent, non-inflammatory conversation going on here.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: much talk about Muslims
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 03:51 PM

Yes, it's a relief to see a thread with "Muslim" in the title that is not full of fear, bigotry and venom.

Subject: RE: BS: much talk about Muslims
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 04:11 PM

Civil war? Isn't that an oxymoron?

Back to the topic - Yes there is. I am glad to see I am not the only one to spot that the press seem to be winding up this anti-moslem feeling that seems endemic at present. Freedom of the press? Yes. Freedom of the press to engender hatred? On yer bike...

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: much talk about Muslims
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 07:15 PM

No, I'm not sick and tired of reading about Muslims. In fact, I've recently been reading a book about them, namely, "A Brief Guide to Islam : History, Faith and Politics: The Complete Introduction" by Paul Grieve, 2006. It's an excellent book; I highly recommend it.

After this, I might try reading the Quran again. (I tried once before and only got a few chapters in.)

I am, however, sick and tired of reading newspapers.

Subject: RE: BS: much talk about Muslims
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 07:24 PM

I'll have another go at Qu'ran as well. It's one of things I've never managed to finish. I think Gods first name must be Thomas though, as the other two authors I really can't finish are Thomas Mann and Thomas Hardy...

Subject: RE: BS: much talk about Muslims
From: skipy
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 07:31 PM

People's behavior makes sense if you think about it in terms of their goals, needs, and motives.
Thomas Mann

Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: much talk about Muslims
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 07:30 AM

I'm not surprised that newspapers are going on about the Muslims. Look at the anti-Rushdie riots, the bombings in London, the hysterical reaction to the Danish cartoons. Their behavour attracts attention. Then there is that stupid bitch who insists on wearing the veil in school. It is almost as if they are trying to aggrevate us. DTg. It is not only the press who engender hatred. Muslims seem pretty capable of doing that by themselves. I am always amazed at the liberal-left. They cry out against the religious right, but pander to the Islamists. My view is the same as Stephen Fry who said on tv the other night: " Religion. Shit it!" Good advice. Religion is based on the belief of a supreme god, which is the height of irrationality. Irrationaltiy is never a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: much talk about Muslims
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 08:27 AM

Ah! There's the post we've been waiting for!

Subject: RE: BS: much talk about Muslims
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 08:49 PM

I didn't realise martin gibsons hatched from penguin eggs...

Subject: RE: BS: much talk about Muslims
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Oct 06 - 01:32 PM

It isn't just the press that engender hatred, PE. You're quite right. But without them how would you know about all these evil things that Moslems are capable of? When did you last hear reports of Christians doing bad things or Moslems doing good?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: much talk about Muslims
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 06:37 AM

That is not completely true,DtG. We all know about right wing Christian fundamentalists who bomb abortion clinics, fund right wing politicians and try to ban Darwinism from schools. I get that from the press. Fox news, for example, does have an agenda; but it still reports what is going on in the world, even though if you are the recipient, you take it with a fair amount of scepticism. However, I take your point. I have worked with Muslims all my life and know that the stereotype doesn't always fit. Neither are all Christians complete nuts. People on the whole, I find, are reasonable.

Subject: RE: BS: much talk about Muslims
From: GUEST,Not Impressed
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 07:02 AM

CANBERRA, Australia -- Australia's most prominent Islamic cleric declared Friday that he would not resign for suggesting that women who don't wear head scarves invite rape, saying he would only leave his post "after we clean the world of the White House first."

Sheik Taj Aldin al-Hilali apologized Thursday for comparing women who fail to wear scarves to "uncovered meat." He has been banned from giving sermons for two or three months by the governing association of his Sydney mosque.

Wise Wurds from the Mufti!

Subject: RE: BS: much talk about Muslims
From: 3refs
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 07:53 AM

As we all look over our shoulders at the rest of the world, we should consider looking straight ahead. I mean no offence to spirituality in itself. You would think that a world that has had a Jesus, Muhammad, Moses and Siddhartha would be a better place. Animism and Hinduism allows one to believe in just about anything or anyone they choose. You can be atheistic and still be a Hindu.
With suggestions being made that the separation of cultures or tribes in Iraq is the way to go, perhaps this should be considered with other regions of the world.
We could gain much needed expertise from the United States or the former Soviet Union, on how to build a big fence and separate those who proclaim that their beliefs should be followed by all. We could all have our own little spot on the planet where we are free to believe in what ever we want, with one little tiny spot somewhere in the Arctic for those who think!

Subject: RE: BS: much talk about Muslims
From: Peace
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 05:55 PM

People should believe what they wish as to spirituality and a divine being. They should also shut the fu#k up about it.

Subject: RE: BS: much talk about Muslims
From: Peace
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 06:31 PM

The above post BTW was not a reference to this thread. It WAS a reference to people who knock on my door selling their religious views.

Subject: RE: BS: much talk about Muslims
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Oct 06 - 09:00 AM

In the US, religion is mixed with politics--and it looks like it's gonna stay that way for a while. Unfortunately.

WSJ today 28 Oct 2006:

"The turnout machine that has pulled evangelical conservatives to the polls in massive numbers is churning away, and for a reason little appreciated outside their circles: the sense that voting is their Christian duty."

Of course that's fine--but of course there's also this.

"And because such voters' litmus test issues are abortion and gay marriage, that typically means vote Republican."

Subject: RE: BS: much talk about Muslims
From: GUEST,nickhere
Date: 28 Oct 06 - 11:10 PM

Hi Ron,

yes, US politics does seem to be dominated by two extremes. It's a pity they don't have a third big party that combines the best of both sides, and people could vote for that. With Republicans and Democrats you are almost guaranteed to end up with either lots of dead Iraqis or dead babies.

Subject: RE: BS: much talk about Muslims
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 12:02 AM

Spoken like a true zygote worshipper.

Subject: RE: BS: much talk about Muslims
From: Joe Richman
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 01:03 AM

There were ads during the World Series promoting a movie called "Borat", which I understand is a comedy about a reporter from a Muslim country (played by a comedian from Britain) who comes to America to make a movie about his stay here.    It sounds like the movie avoids directly insulting the Muslim religion, but instead makes fun of the culture of a Muslim backwater. (And a rather dry backwater indeed, using the real country of Kazakhstan instead of a made up one.)

We'll see how well this flick does at the boxoffice. I won't be going.

Joe

Subject: RE: BS: much talk about Muslims
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 02:44 AM

The Aussie Muslim Cleric has NOT been sacked - he has 'willingly taken holiday for a pilgrimage' - he is openly defiant about having 'mistranslated' - claiming that his clear statement about "meat openly on display being at fault if the cat takes it" while he was talking about committing sexual crimes that result in men getting sent to prison for rape - and has now volunteered to accept that he did wrong only if a joint meeting of Australian Muslim Clerics condemns him.

Subject: RE: BS: much talk about Muslims
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 09:49 AM

'Borat'   Played by a comedian with one joke, so got very old very quickly. If people have heard of him, then they will generally think him very tiresome, or those with single figure IQs find him hilarious. His previous one was the this white, jewish man was claiming discrimintaion against him everywhere "It's caus I'm black, Innit"

It has to be in the US, as the UK knows what he's up to. I can't see it working in the US, as the level of idiocy involved is beyond believe. On the other hand, you have congress, so maybe....


Yes, I'm a bit of a cultural snob. Offensive comedy should actually be funny.

Subject: RE: BS: much talk about Muslims
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 10:05 AM

People with low IQs prefer the icky sweet comedy of the Disney Channel. I know this because a member of my family has a very low IQ from a genetic disorder. 'BORAT' would bore her since she is totally apolitical and loves nearly everyone who isn't mean. I don't like the idea of this comedy because it IS offensive, and I try to go by the rule "do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

Joe

Subject: RE: BS: much talk about Muslims
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 11:03 AM

Sorry joe, I wasn't trying to be rude about members of you family. A better phrasing would be: And those who find him funny are likely to be 7 year old boys with a fixation on bodily functions, or their ilk.

I was being restrained, and didn't use the phrase 'slack jawed morons', or something along those lines, which I would probably if I knew everyone who would hear it...

Subject: RE: BS: much talk about Muslims
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 11:45 AM

I didn't take your remarks personally, Bunnahabhain. I just was trying to differentiate between people's intelligence (which is God given) and their moral compass (which can come from many different sources). Next time, try "morals of an alleycat" instead of "brains of an idiot". It's usually a more apt description.

Joe

Subject: RE: BS: much talk about Muslims
From: Joe Richman
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 12:15 PM

I didn't take your remarks personally, Bunnahabhain. I just was trying to differentiate between people's intelligence (which is God given) and their moral compass (which can come from many different sources). Next time, try "morals of an alleycat" instead of "brains of an idiot". It's usually a more apt description.

Joe

Subject: RE: BS: much talk about Muslims
From: Joe Richman
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 12:16 PM

there it is with cookie reset
Joe