BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 02:46 PM

Bee--

People just like to stir the pot--just like to upset others. But Joe is onto "Guest Dickey". We'll see what happens now.

And as far as I'm concerned anybody can comment on a topic--as long as they pick a handle--and stay with it. And anybody who opposes my view just forces me to hone my logic. All to the good.

We're always free to ignore a posting--or to ask the poster what kind of music they like--which you've done. And some Guests, for some reason, don't like that question. Wonder why.

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 03:25 PM

Bee, It also seems self evident, wouldn't you agree?, that the existence of a separate BS section on a music oriented board, tends to the likelihood that non music topics are intended to be discussed.

As for guest Dickey, I see only the usual desperate attempt of the republican fanatic to manufacture, in the absence of solid facts, a justification for the criminal behaviour of those who are unfortunately, currently (hopefully temporarily) in control of the US of A.

"[You're full of shite LH. Do you think totalitarianisim is good? That's where Chavez is headed. Don't read the news whatever you do. It might educate you.]"

Sorry Dickey, but when you have been here for more than a few days, you will realise that LH is a well educated, well read, and intelligent member of this forum, and generally well respected too. At least he can spell totalitarianism, as well as recognise, like myself, that the country currently most rapidly proceeding in that direction is in fact the republican led US of A.

Geedubya has obviously chosen his role models rather poorly, as evidenced by many policies introduced by his government.

Adolf Hitler-
1. Scared the Germans into espousing Nazism by using the Jews as bogeymen for them to hate and fear.
2. Justified the invasion of sovereign neighbour states by horror stories of ill treatment of Germans living in those states.
3. Removed the civil rights, first of the Jews, then of all citizens under the guise of National Security.
4. Carried out the invasions of those neighbour states, thereby precipitating a world conflict.

Substitute Muslim for Jew, and WMDs for foreign bullying, Dickey! Remind you of anyone we know?

George ("I've started, so I'll finish") Bush is infinitely more dangerous to the world than the Muslim leaders. After all, we know HE HAS WMDs.

Hmmm! Maybe the rest of the world should join forces and do something about him. What d'ye think?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 03:37 PM

I would agree, Ron Davies, anything can be abused.

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: Bee
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 04:03 PM

Don: yes, I expect politics and all sort of things to be discussed on the BS section - by the same people who post in the music section, or at least some of them and their friends. And of course, people drop into message boards to 'stir the pot' all the time, I'm well aware. However, to randomly show up on what is obviously a music forum, when there are scads of bigger forums dedicated to political discussion and start spouting cut and paste political views suggests the kind of dedication that comes with being paid to do so.

It is a fact that there are people paid to post all sorts of things: praise of various products, for example, and yes, people are paid to elicit political responses in order to generate statistical and other kinds of information. Thus my question to Mr./Ms. Dickey as to whether they had an interest in music, because I am wondering, and would like to know, whether this is a person who came for the music and stayed to talk politics, or a person who's paid to be here.

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 04:11 PM

But what point would there be to paying Dickey? What sentient being would stand any chance of being influenced by his canned tripe? (smells pretty bad, too)

If you're going to pay somebody, surely you can do better than Dickey.

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: Bee
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 04:19 PM

I believe the pay is usually quite small, Ron.

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 04:30 PM

Bee-


Well, I suppose you get what you pay for.


LH--

Sorry, I shouldn't have said "No" in discussing Hitler and religion. I should have said "I disagree". I'm just too used to debating Teribus, Doug R and other giant intellects of that sort--and being rather direct with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 04:45 PM

Crazyhorse....Is that you Shakey?
My you've fairly changed your tune! Pleased to see that at last we've something to agree about..Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 07:08 PM

I don't see that there is anything offense about having an unpopular opinion--I think it is unfortunate when you can't really defend it--in a certain way, making a poorly reasoned, badly explained, and obviously uniformed defense of one side of an issue really makes a point for the other side--hmmm...

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: GUEST,Crazyhorse
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 07:15 PM

RD, I'm pleased for you that you're not religious but I will argue against it as much as I'm able.
If the supernaturalists believe that their god is so powerful why do they need special laws to protect it.

By the way I had a pop at religion not the believers. I have no problem looking in the mirror, I am tolerant, I just don't tolerate intolerance which is what the "book" religions all preach.

Ake
What makes you think I'm shakey, whoever that is, apart from the, fairly obscure, musical connection.

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 10:14 PM

RD: Care to elaborate on this?

From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 02:46 PM

Bee--

People just like to stir the pot--just like to upset others. But Joe is onto "Guest Dickey". We'll see what happens now.

Dear Joe:

The reason I cut and paste things like this in their entirety is because the pages frequently go away and leave a dead link.

Also it was a bit longer than my screen but my screen is 1280 x 1024 and I have my fonts set a little larger. I was under the assumption that your screen is a quite a bit larger.

I started a thread named My take on Liberals with a cut and paste that filled my screen but it was still closed with no explanation. It contained no personal attacks. I made a post asking that it be restored and asking why it was closed and that post was deleted.

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 12:23 AM

Sorry, Dickey. One screen is the limit on non-music copy-pastes. Most of the non-music discussions are of an ephemeral nature - they're "hot topics" today, but won't be in a week. Most likely, your link will last a week. If the article is too long, post a summary in your own words or an excerpt, plus a link. This is a forum for people to express their own opinions, not for simply copy-pasting information available elsewhere on the Internet. You may use copied information, but most of what you post should be your own. And if you participate in discussions here, we expect you to use a consistent user name, every time you post. I deleted a good number of messages that you posted anonymously.
I reopened the "Liberals" thread.
-Joe Offer

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 12:41 AM

Ron, well, I semi-agree with you about the Nazis (in regards to religion) and I semi-don't. ;-)

Hitler and the Nazis were very mystical, and that in itself is a form of religion. Hitler's mysticism was an odd blend of old Nordic mythical glories, mixed with Christianity, mixed with bizarre racial theories about "Aryans" and the Nordic people. Hitler wrote about Jesus in "Mein Kampf" and he said that Jesus was not the way people saw him at all, but that he was "a fighter". He meant that Jesus was one who would fight actively and use force to oppose what Hitler saw as "the bad people" and the bad forces in society. In invoking Jesus in that way, he was saying that Jesus was his ally and the ally of the Nazi movement! I suppose his conclusion that Jesus was such a fighter was based upon passages such as those concerning him driving the moneylenders out of the temple, and some of the more dramatic stuff in Revelations, most likely. Like many other people, Hitler must have read the Bible quite selectively, I would figure, cherry-picking out of it whatever suited him and conveniently overlooking the rest.

Of course some church people opposed the Nazis (and were harshly dealt with for it) while others cooperated fully with the Nazi New Order, and still others kept their heads low and their mouths shut.

Yes, the "Gott Mitt Uns" slogan of the German army may have predated Naziism, but it certainly was taken on seamlessly by the Nazi armed forces, regardless, so I would say that they took considerable advantage of conventional religion in motivating their troops. This was specially true on the Eastern Front where German troops were frequently reminded that they were fighting "godless Communism", and you had alluded to that yourself.

(The SS, however, had a different slogan: I believe it was "My Blood is My Honor".)

I regard the Nazis not as a non-religious group at all, but as an intensely mystical and religious group...although what they were really doing was building a brand new religion: one that elevated the German people to the status of "God's Chosen" (the Master Race) and Hitler to the status of God's Instrument on Earth, so to speak. They were divinizing "the Leader". It was a new and radical form of religion, in my opinion. Nazis were most certainly NOT instructed to deny the existence of God, they were under the impression that God was quite wholeheartedly in favor of what they were doing.

I think that a lot of people simply label the Nazis as "godless", because they figure that anyone who is doing really such evil things as that must be godless... ;-) (in their opinion) It's not careful thought to arrive at that conclusion, it's just a snap judgement.

But how about Pol Pot? A perfect example of your original point.

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 09:02 AM

So that mixes a little Isaac Newton into the mix. The reason Hilter went after the Jews with such vigor is because there was no way two groups of "god's chosen people" could occupy the same planet at the same time.

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 11:30 AM

No, as usual, you've missed the point. Hitler abused religion--as I said. Religion itself is not to blame, much as you are determined to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: John Hardly
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 11:35 AM

If Western Democracy has an "Achille's Heel" it is that its freedom is only as good as its education.

...and that it has the capacity to vote for its own failure.

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 11:36 AM

Thanx Joe

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 11:47 AM

Dickey, when the copy/paste limits were first developed, there was a prohibition on pasting stuff - in effect, republishing it - and not saying anything of your own.

Apparently, that's changed, but I think we should be a discussion forum, not a place to slap up posters. Of course, it once was a folk music forum, too, so simply re-posting news may be perfectly acceptable these days.

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: Stu
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 11:47 AM

The Achillies Heel of western democracy is capitalism. In fact, in the rhetoric of modern politics the two words are interchangeable.

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 11:53 AM

I'd disagree with you too, Stigweard. Is the West more advanced than the rest of the world? Is it capitalist?   Why is there no connection?

Why is China becoming more capitalist?

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 12:14 PM

I agree with JH, education is essential to keep democracy working. That would mean to me, teaching things that are actually real and provable.

          As far as capitalism is concerned, it seemed to work pretty well until whoever was running Ronald Reagan came up with the concept of a "free market economy," which has since developed into a monopolistic shell game.

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 12:52 PM

Yes indeedy, China is becoming more Capitalistic by the minute and therefore more prosperous and their standard of living is improving.

In the far future, after the paralysis of Political Correctness sets in, they will at the mercy of other, previously third world countrys, which have come of age.

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 01:41 PM

Ron, perhaps I did miss your point, but if so, you are likewise missing mine. ;-)

I agree with you 100% when you say: "Hitler abused religion--as I said. Religion itself is not to blame"

Exactly. That's what I'm saying! Religion itself is never to blame for the wrongful things done in its name. It is people who abuse religion who are to blame for those wrongful things.

Anyway my original point that started off our (yours and my) discussion was simply this: that you can hold up Stalin and Mao as leaders of atheistic movements which totally denied religion on principle and killed a lot of people while so doing...but you can't do that with Hitler or the Nazis, because they were not, by definition, an atheistic movement.

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 02:06 PM

Let me see if I can come up with some Achilles Heels for western "democracy"...

Okay...

1. All decisions are normally made on the basis of money rather than on the basis of achieving the overall common good (of people, the environment, animal species, etc.) THAT is the number 1 problem in the world right now. That is the greatest threat to all life as we know it.

2. the electoral sytem doesn't work properly anymore, because huge monied interests are controlling the political parties. This results in political parties that don't really represent the public anymore, and the public is helpless to do anything about it.

3. the main avenues of media information (TV, radio and print) are controlled by a few huge centralized monied interests as well, who have agreed pretty much on setting common objectives (profit and control). This effectively results in a public that is ill-informed and mainly hears a centralized pre-digested propaganda line rather than a genuinely open debate on important issues.

4. (a) the modern medical industry is geared more toward selling drugs and making money than toward finding cures and teaching people how to live a healthier lifestyle.

4. (b) the modern food industry is geared toward selling genetically engineered, processed, and chemically altered food that looks good and has a long shelf life! That same food has about 1/5 of the nutritional content per volume that food used to have only a few decades ago. So we are eating like pigs, but not getting proper nutrition from the food while we do it. This results in a North American population that is suffering record levels of overweight, diabetes, heart disease, cancer, and other deadly illnesses.

5. the drug laws are geared mainly toward punishing people and regulating supply rather than toward helping cure addiction, reducing poverty, and educating people so they will be less inclined to get addicted in the first place.

6. In communities...we plan our communities more as if we were trying to make CARS happy than people! This is unwise. ;-) Again, it has to do with profit. (and sheer laziness)

7. We value money more than real things. (Money is a made-up thing that everyone has agreed to pretend is real, and now everyone is enslaved by it.)

8. We have created a military-industrial system that needs to keep producing armaments in order to perpetuate itself and employ all the people who are in it. We cannot justify building all those armamaments unless we have continual conflict or threat of conflict in the world. This means we have to find new enemies every time an old one ceases to be viable. And that, in a nutshell, is where this ridiculous war with the Muslims came from. It had to be arranged to fill up the vacuum that was left when the Cold War ended!

Remember the "Peace Dividend" that we were all supposed to enjoy after the collapse of the Soviet Union?

Ha! It never happened. You know why? It would have mostly put the military-industrial complex out of business....and that simply could not be allowed to happen, because those guys are NOT going to yield their control of this society. A new enemy will ALWAYS be found...or invented.

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 02:17 PM

The one that you missed is illegal immigration. People coming from the outside to remake the democracy in their image. Or at least in the image of the folks who are controlling them, and who don't want you to know who they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 02:22 PM

Yeah, for sure. There are probably several others that I missed too. It's a complex situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 02:24 PM

That's a pretty special world you live in.

This one is a little confusing though:

"We value money more than real things"

What do "We" do with this money that "We" value so much?

Do we stuff our mattress with it and sleep good or do we spend it on real things?

Fact is "We", which does not include me, have spent the money in advance for real things and are in the process of making the money to pay for them.

I think the real problem is "We" which again does not include me, want more and more real things which results in an cycle of earning and spending.

Fortunately I was never in that loop. I believe in working toward what you really want, not just attaining it first and then struggling to pay for it while discovering you need more.

You are welcome to the rest of your sentiments and I respect them but it seems to me you would be happier as a Tibetan Monk sitting and meditating all day and chanting OHMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM ;->

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 02:32 PM

Those monks you speak of don't chant "OMMMMM" all day. They do so for short periods, maybe 15 minutes, twice a day. The rest of the time they work harder than most North Americans, breathe more effectively, think more creatively, exercise their bodies more effectively, and accomplish a great deal more on a personal level.

But, hey, thanks for the compliment! ;-)

My point about money is that it's merely a tool. It can be a very useful tool (as a means of exchange of goods and services), and I enjoy using it just like you do, but when it becomes the final arbiter of every vital decision then some very bad decisions end up being made.

I'm saying that money itself (rather than what you can DO with the money) has become too dominating a factor in our collective decision-making process. And that's resulting in some very bad collective decisions.

Would you agree?

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 10:16 PM

I don't know about how hard all these monks work. I mean, look at a place like Tibet, nothing ever seems to happen there.

         The problem with money, it seems to me, comes about when a few people have gobs of it, and most people have hardly any. Which is where we seem to have been headed for the last several years.

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 12:42 AM

I think the money involved in election campaigns is corrupting the election process and the functioning of government.

George Soros would probably know a lot about it.

Talking about some people having hardly any money and some people having gobs, I have seen this happen in familys. Like 3 brothers, the oldest and youngest of which are well off and the middle brother is always broke and begging the other two to "help him out" Any money given to him is soon pissed away and he needs more. The same upbringing, same parents, same everything. In fact, the father built three equal houses for them all free and clear. The middle brother sold his and pissed the money away.

Then I have seen immigrants come here legally and live in a school bus grafted on the back of their liquor store and suddenly they have a nice house and they are driving Mercedii.

Can you explain that in your rich get richer / poor get poorer theory?

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 08:23 AM

It isn't a theory, statistics will demonstrate.

          As far as immigrants running a liquor store, pretty much everyone I've come in contact with who run liqour stores make money.

          And if the middle brother is too intelligent to put up with the day to day bullshit of making money, the younger and the older will probably be better off--at least financially.

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 12:46 PM

Yeah that's it.

Poor people are too smart to make money and all liqour store owners are rich. As soon as a legal immigrant steps on shore they are given a liquor store to run and that makes them rich. Got it.

And the politicians that pander to the poor people and tell them they will give them what ever they need if they vote for them and thereby taking away any incentive for self improvement are pissing in the wind. Now I understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: bubblyrat
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 01:08 PM

The question we always ask in Britain is this----Given that most of the Free World"s crude oil supplies comes from,or passes through, the Middle East,can Americans honestly say that they would STILL have gone into Iraq had that country posed any threat to,say,the Free World"s supply of chocolate ???

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 01:13 PM

Dickey - Statistics will tell you that a child born to a certain class will probably die in that same class. There may be some upward mobility but its usually through marriage. Of course there are exceptions but its not the general rule.

btw - Politicians have very little to do with incentive. Parental expectations are far more powerful. Politicians can, however, remove road blocks and ease the conditions of poverty.

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 01:18 PM

"I think the money involved in election campaigns is corrupting the election process and the functioning of government."

And you are so right! See, we actually agree about a lot of things, Dickey, despite the fact that I'm not a "conservative". I think these labels, "liberal" and "conservative", at least as they are being used in the USA these days, are leading people badly astray and creating a useless controversy.

It's true that some people are irresponsible and will squander any amount of money if given the chance, while others are frugal and hard-working and will do well if given the chance. That, again, is clear to both "liberals" and "conservatives" most of the time. I think that people's upbringing when they are children is vital to shaping their tendencies to use money wisely or foolishly...but perhaps in some cases it's an innate tendency of some kind that's in the person regardless.

Immigrants from poor countries tend to work a lot harder because they had to deal more with hard realities while they were growing up and they're not so spoiled as North Americans. They are prepared to suffer in order to get ahead. People who are not prepared to suffer don't accomplish much.

The same is true of someone learning to play a musical instrument. It takes hard work to get really good at it.

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: pdq
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 01:32 PM

bubblyrat,

The situation is Iraq is complicated. The problem with Hussein is that he used the enormous oil revenue to buy arms, including chemical and biological weapons. He waged war, killed his own countrymen, supported terrorism against Israel, and was an all-around piece of crap. The US had to stop him because of what he did with the oil-gererated billions, not because Iraq had oil. Not exactly the same thing.

If Iraq were a dry desert with no oil, there would still be a few warlords trying to kill other warlords with knives and cheap rifles. Not a pleasant place to live, but not a real threat to the rest of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 03:57 PM

"Parental expectations are far more powerful."

AHA! you have hit the nail on the head. Now how do the rich keep the parents of the poor from having high expectations for their children?

And if Politicians can remove roadblocks and relieve the situation, why haven't they done so? Listen to Bill Cosby. He was so poor he didn't even know how poor he was. What roadblocks were in his way? Who held him back and took all his opportunities away?

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 04:33 PM

There are always exceptions to the rule. I am one of them but like Littlehawk said it takes alot of hard work. I think sacrifice would be a better word than suffering but...

The fact that I was able to better myself was a result of student loans (provided by the govt.)and sacrificing a good portion of my life to not much more than study. I did not have the support or encouragement of my parents. Sometimes I think my children suffered but they say they didn't even realize that they were poor, let alone neglected.

Once you have your degree, you have to face a bunch of gatekeepers. These are the people who do not care about your education or experience and will give the job to a 'well-connected' relative of a friend of a friend before even considering a stranger, let alone a minority or an immigrant. Nepotism is a very big obstacle to success. It can be overcome but it takes a great deal of stamina and persistence.

The gov. can provide incentives by providing adequate housing, medical and dental and education. The key word is not equality but "equal opportunity". The government should insure that all citizens have access to educational opportunities.

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 04:42 PM

LH:

I think the main diferentiation between a Liberal and a Conservative is that A liberal thinks government should do everything people won't do for themselves. A conservative thinks people should be in charge of their own life and bear the responsiblities of their actions.

The problem enters when other people seek to prey on people who are not wise enough to keep from being preyed upon. Then the system of lawyers, courts, lobbyists and politicans selling out their morals to be elected, allow this to continue.

I think the solution lies in education people up to the level that they can take care of themselves. Where they can resist the miracle diet pills, the get rich quick adds, the internet and phone fraud, the credit card traps and the appeals to buy the latest gizmo. Something most parents used to do but too few do today. I often tell my wife, a teacher, that schools should put personal finance, parenting and such things of a practical nature right in there with english, math, science etc.

You can look right in the schools and see who will succeed and who will not by looking at their grades. Some of the poorest are encouraged by their parents, disciplined and do great. Others of the middle class are not encouraged or disciplined and do poorly.

It is not necessarily the wealth of the family but proper parenting that is the determining factor. After 22 years as an educator, my wife can cite numerous examples. She is even teaching the children of the children she taught earlier and the grandchildren of some of her fellow educators.

I also think everyone should be required to do some sort of public service in their late teens, even the sons and daughters of the politicians and rich folks but you know how far that would get in congress.

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 04:51 PM

I agree with you on the public service.

          But George W. Bush is famous for getting lousy grades. Of course his father was the president, and..

          On the other hand, I guess he hasn't been very successful, has he?

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: John Hardly
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 05:19 PM

Who was Thetis and how did all of Western democracy fit into the river Styx?

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 05:41 PM

"I think the solution lies in education people up to the level that they can take care of themselves. Where they can resist the miracle diet pills, the get rich quick adds, the internet and phone fraud, the credit card traps and the appeals to buy the latest gizmo. Something most parents used to do but too few do today. I often tell my wife, a teacher, that schools should put personal finance, parenting and such things of a practical nature right in there with english, math, science etc."

I agree with that, Dickey, and with most of your other points, only I'm a bit dubious about your first paragraph.

My idea of what government should do is that it should do things that are simply too large (or expensive or unprofitable) for other people in society to manage, such as: set up an armed forces, a legislative system, a justice system, a legal system, a currency, and stuff like that. Then there's a taxation system.   I think government assistance is also needed in areas like education, communications systems, transit systems, medical systems, environmental systems, and so on...that doesn't mean I think that ALL those areas should be run totally and exclusively by the government. I don't. But I think that some government involvement is probably necessary.

Then you've got all the different levels of government: national, state, civic, local...all necessary to some extent.

Government is just the collective efforts of a society to manage itself in a coherent manner through people it appoints or elects to do that management and through people those people hire. That doesn't have to interfere with individual rights or individual efforts at getting ahead in life, as long as those efforts are not illegal.

I mean, heck, how could you run this society without the government? You couldn't. We're not living in log cabins in the wilderness anymore.

I don't really buy your definition of "conservative" and "liberal"...although I know it's the definition that runs through the average conservative's mind when he hears those terms, but I think it's mostly mythological.

I don't think most "liberals" want the government to have its hand in everything. Not by any means. It isn't that a liberal thinks government should do everything people won't do for themselves...it's that he thinks government must do those things that people simply can't do for themselves...and it's fairly obvious what those things are.

Why have governments always raised and maintained professional armies? Because the ordinary public can't manage it! They don't have the time or energy or motivation to manage it, because they're too busy dealing with ordinary day to day life, and they also can't afford the military hardware to do it properly, even if they wanted do, which they don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 06:32 PM

I agree that the government should do all of these basic functions of government. But I don't it should guarantee and income, food supply, housing etc. People need to work and earn their stuff or they do not appreciate them.

Money is the prime example.

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 06:51 PM

"Who was Thetis and how did all of Western democracy fit into the river Styx?"



         All of Western democracy did not get dipped, of course. When it came time for the dipping Rush Limbaugh and his ilk were blowing hot air, so they remain undipped and vulnerable.

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: John Hardly
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 07:08 PM

I never really cared for Styx. They were part of that era of sticky-sweet over-produced "rock and roll" that turned me off of pop music entirely. REO Speedwagon, Boston, Journey, Air Supply, even Queen...

...I could have done without that whole era.

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 07:31 PM

"People need to work and earn their stuff or they do not appreciate them."

Definitely. I've seen plenty of examples proving that. I'm not in favor of giving people something for nothing, but I am in favor of a reasonable minimum wage law and stuff like that. I think it's in the fine tuning of how to react to things like homelessness, poverty, ghettos, and so on, that people get into these endless arguments. Something obviously needs to be done to correct such situations, but people have trouble agreeing on exactly what. And then, they always want it to come out of someone else's pocketbook, don't they? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 07:33 PM

Frankly, it didn't occur to me to associate Styx with "rock and roll" music. My first inclination was to think of Dante.

         Getting back to what Guest Dickey was commenting on, however, if everyone had to work for money it would be a different world all together. The problem is, since the advent of Reagan, and just before the market crash of '29 too, capital has been concentrated in the hands of fewer and fewer people. And people with capital rarely know what it is to work.

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 07:46 PM

" if everyone had to work for money it would be a different world all together"

Whoah! No doubt about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 07:53 PM

"And people with capital rarely know what it is to work."

You are speaking from experience I presume.

I think the minimum wage should be $10 to give people more incentive to work.

I definately don't want there to be poor people and I am sure the fat cats do not want there to be poor people. The only people I can think of that might want poor people is someone that can use them to get elected.

However the poor people must do something on their own and make an effort. Listen to Bill Cosby.

Have you ever offered a job to one of those homeless people? They run like the wind.

I have had men approach me asking for some change so they can buy some gas because they ran out of gas. I tell them I have some gas and I will give them a ride back to their car and put it in their car. This was a sincere offer. They shut up and amble away. Then I will see them on the other side of the parking lot asking some one else for change. I go over and offer to give them some gas again that they go beserk.

This has happened several times.

Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 08:11 PM

Okay, I've met a number of those people as well, and I don't consider them to be merely "poor people." The look and act like con men to me.

         And I would agree, Bill Cosby has a lot to offer.

         I worked for a guy one time who would hire winos off the street because he felt sorry for them, and they let him down every time, to a person. I actuallly felt sorry for my boss.

         But having said all of that, there's something wrong with American society when young, native born Americans can not hope to achieve what there father's were able to achieve because the world they live in is going backwards.
         At the same time, new immigrants see cutting onions in America as a brand new adventure. They are looking at the world through a whole different lens than the native born twenty-something.

         I submit, this is a problem that really needs looking into.

b