BS: sleep problem

Subject: BS: sleep problem
From: Partridge
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 12:56 PM

Hello,

I'm not sleeping at all well. The problem is that I can't shut my brain down. I've started a new job a month ago and I keep going over imaginary senarios at work when I'm dozing. (Its been a steep learning curve and I'm confident that I'm doing a good job.)
Things I've tried:

herbal tablets - actually keep me awake!
hot milk
red wine - bad idea!
lettuce sandwich
calming music
light reading
watching tv

Things that I don't do:

I don't drink tea or coffee after 10 am
I dont play the computer after 7.30pm
I don't do crosswords or soduko after 7.30pm

My bed is comfortable, I sleep alone so I can spread out if I want and am not bothered by snoring or anything like that.

I don't sit at a desk all day and am up and down stairs a lot.

Any thoughts and advice would be appreciated

love
Pat x

Subject: RE: BS: sleep problem
From: Bagpuss
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 01:06 PM

What do you do when you can't sleep? Do you lie in bed and keep trying, or do you get up and do something else? Apparently staying in bed and trying to sleep can be counterproductive.

When I had insomnia caused by depression, I found that keeping my mind occupied with some difficult but boring task was a good help as keeping my mind off worrying real life thoughts. Examples included teaching myself to recite the alphabet backwards, fluently (and every time I made a mistake or hesitated, I had to go back to Z and start again), and changing the word BLACK to the word WHITE one letter at a time (each intermediate has to be a real word).

Hope something works for you.

Subject: RE: BS: sleep problem
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 01:08 PM

Relaxation techniques can help people who can't sleep get a good night's sleep so you could try those. I have used relaxation tapes in the past but really can't be bothered with them any more. Breathing exercises might help - I find them useful.

Subject: RE: BS: sleep problem
From: Schantieman
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 01:14 PM

Lots of fresh air an hour or three before bedtime - walk home from work/after dinner for an hour or so?

S

Subject: RE: BS: sleep problem
From: mg
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 01:29 PM

some lavendar in the bath or on cotton balls in the room if you like the scent. mg

Subject: RE: BS: sleep problem
From: Partridge
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 01:34 PM

I put a bit of lavender oil on my pj's. I do get up rather than toss and turn - its just all the crap in my head I could do without.

Pat

Subject: RE: BS: sleep problem
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 01:48 PM

My mum...had a similar problem so she used to read in bed until she actually fell asleep with the book still in her hand. I suppose the reading takes the mind off other things and you become relaxed enough to drop off.

Subject: RE: BS: sleep problem
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 01:52 PM

Pat, you could always read old Mudcat threads when you can't sleep-- like the one last month about trouble sleeping. :~)

No, really, I think the upheavals over heat may have had something to do with your current sleeplessness.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: sleep problem
From: Partridge
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 01:56 PM

You might be right Susan, I just wish I could turn off the noise in my head.

pat

Subject: RE: BS: sleep problem
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 02:21 PM

Have you tried meditation? One of its main objects is to help one turn off the chatter. It's very calming besides.

Subject: RE: BS: sleep problem
From: gnu
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 02:29 PM

Sometimes, you just can't "turn off". But, the only way I have ever been able to do so is to regulate my breathing into long, deep breaths, in and out, and say to myself, "I can't do anything about anything right now except get a good night of rest... the best thing I can do right now is get a good night of rest... I will be so much better after a good night of rest... it's so peaceful and calming to get a good.........

Subject: RE: BS: sleep problem
From: Leadfingers
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 02:29 PM

Pat - You did say you sleep alone ! Perhaps a solution would be if I came up and slept with you ! I am certain that I could bore you to sleep in NO time !

Subject: RE: BS: sleep problem
From: Richard in Manchester
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 02:30 PM

I've frequently had difficulty getting to sleep for the last few years - an unwelcome change, because I used to be able to sleep anywhere, on anything and in practically any conditions.

I've tried most of the remedies suggested in the thread, but the one success I've hit on is the most bizarre: I recite Bob Newhart sketches in my mind. I've no idea why this seems to work because the sketches are funny, and you'd have thought they would tend to liven the mind up rather than calm it down. I suspect they act as a kind of anchor for the mind to hang on to while it drifts off, and keeps me from being distracted by lots of other stuff.

Otherwise, good exercise in fresh air has to be the best remedy.

Subject: RE: BS: sleep problem
From: Partridge
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 03:19 PM

Thanks leadfingers, I em er ..........thanks

I'm so tired. I m going to look for a relaxing cd and then to bed.

night night

pat xx

Subject: RE: BS: sleep problem
From: mack/misophist
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 03:26 PM

There's a bit of advice that helped me with a similar problem once. Often the muscles of our eyes and jaws are tense without us being aware of it. Locate them in your mind's eye and deliberately relax them. It helped me.

Subject: RE: BS: sleep problem
From: John O'L
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 05:14 PM

As Ebbie says, meditation will help. I have found that Tai Chi helps too. The calming effect is remarkable.

Subject: RE: BS: sleep problem
From: Morticia
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 05:29 PM

Try relaxing every group of muscles, starting with the feet going right up to your head. I visualise them sinking like lead weights through the mattress and then floating like balloons above it...once you have dealt with your whole body, try deep breathing, in for 4, hold for 4, out for 4, hold for 4......no matter how stressed, I am usually out by the second set of deep breathing BUT if that doesn't work, after all that regime then try counting backwards from 100, then 99, then 98 etc.

It's very basic relaxation and self hypnosis but it works. At the very least, you are concentrating on the regime hard enough to displace the 'busy work' that is going on in your head.

Subject: RE: BS: sleep problem
From: Helen
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 05:53 PM

Hi Pat,

During a particularly stressful time in my life I had trouble switching off my brain to be able to sleep. I have found a few things which helped me.

You said you tried herbal tablets, but have you tried herbal teas? Usually the main ingredient for inducing a relaxed sleep is chamomile, but different teas have other extra ingredients maybe to help relaxation or to make it a pleasant tasting tea. I have started a new job 5 months ago, which is the late shift, 4pm - 11.30pm, and I get home at midnight. I find it difficult to go straight to sleep but I still wake up early, usually about 6am, so if I am particularly tired I make a cup of the sleep tea about half an hour before going to bed. I make it in half a cup of boiling water so that I don't have to get up in the night to go for a "widdle walk" (sorry, folks! but it defeats the purpose to finally get to sleep and then have to get up to go to the loo - kind of like getting woken up in hospital to get a sleeping pill).

I have decided that the best description for the result is that drinking the tea "takes the edges off the frazzles". By that I mean, when my brain is so overactive and won't settle down to let me sleep, it is like thousands of tiny "frazzles" all vibrating at high speed and with a sort of high pitched internal/mental sound, like the cicadas that just started buzzing outside my front door. I imagine the frazzles as finger-like things or cilia - the tiny hairs inside your ears - waving around at a frantic pace. By drinking the tea the frazzles become less tensed up, less frantic, and they soften themselves into more relaxed, more slowly moving shapes and so the tea doesn't really put me to sleep it just allows me to get into a frame of mind conducive to sleep.

A brand of tea I like is by Celestial Seasonings, but there are others available, asl long as they have chamomile in them. Chamomile on its own is a bit of an acquired taste. I find I can drink it if I need it, but it's a bit too powerful for my taste.

Next, when I come home from work I usually sit at my computer and play a few games of solitaire - the game called Spider is my favourite at present - which is far from exciting, fairly repetitive but engaging enough to click my brain into focusing on something other than my current worries or preoccupations. I save a particular game and keep trying to solve the same one because I can focus on the same information and try to solve the same puzzle rather than starting new games each time.

I also have a cheap computer software programme for doing jigsaws. I can load my own photos into it so that I am focusing on images I like, and I make it just hard enough to be interesting but not hard enough to be demoralising. That helps me to get into a more relaxed frame of mind.

As for CD's, I discovered Adagios when I was in that very stressful work situation a few years ago. I have a CD clock radio, and I put a CD of Adagios on with fairly low volume and the rhythm of the music is long and slow. I bought 3 Adagio CD's and to this day I have never consciously heard the end of the 3 CD's because I have always fallen asleep before the end. Another Cd I can recommend, if it is still available, is by the Canadian Mudcatter called Musicman (Paul Evenden. The CD is called Farewell: A Collection of Celtic Waltzes and Slow Airs, a tribute to his wife who passed away.

And about taming your worries, someone told me many years ago when I was having difficulty working through some issues that a trick is to mentally imagine putting all your issues or worries (the type that you keep going over and over in your mind and can't seem to get past them into a solution) into a paper bag and then imagine tightly sealing the bag and then throwing it into the garbage bin. I did that and mentally chucked it in the river. IT's a funny thing but it seemed to help me to detach from things which were overwhelming me.

I'm lighting a candle for you, and thinking of you. I'm sure everything will work out fine. It's always so hard to take up a new job, and if it is a lot to learn it is not unusual to be eating, sleeping (or not sleeping :-) ), dreaming your job until you settle into it.

Helen

Subject: RE: BS: sleep problem
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 06:14 PM

Pat, one thing I didn't do, when I had a thread like this a month or two ago, is get a new guided imagery tape to listen to. I am sleeping better, but I do mean to get a tape by Belleruth Naparstek. She is quite good. It was her tapes for heart surgery which got me through it, I am convinced.

Subject: RE: BS: sleep problem
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 06:22 PM

So long as you lie down and take it easy you're resting. It's almost certain sooner or later you'll drop off and get enough actual sleep to meet your needs. People often need far far less sleep than is generally assumed. Worrying about going to sleep just keeps you awake, so just don't worry about it.

Subject: RE: BS: sleep problem
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 06:40 PM

Mr Leadfingers. Threatening to 'bore' a woman can have two meanings.....which sense did you mean to portray here?

Subject: RE: BS: sleep problem
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 06:44 PM

That current thread about "Feminist jokes" woudl probably suggest that both senses come to much the same thing...

Subject: RE: BS: sleep problem
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 07:45 PM

McGrath, sometimes it is not that simple. If one's mind won't stop there is no way a person is able to lie down and take it easy. When the mind goes on and on, the body tends to follow with tension, etc., thus making it a vicious battle between trying to relax and the mind keeping on.

Subject: RE: BS: sleep problem
From: Helen
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 08:47 PM

Oh yes, the other thing is that if you don't get enough hours of sleep - whatever amount is right for you - you won't dream, and dreaming is a way for the brain to process information into more manageable forms. I adjusted to my new shift before Christmas but then the 10 days I took off put me back into day shift mode, and I am finally just about re-adjusted to afternoon shift mode. I think. This last week has not been good, but I made sure I allocated plenty of time for sleep on the weekend. Phone calls and people at the door in the morning are the worst.

Also, I'd steer clear of any herbal teas with valerian in them - just a bit too strong for helping you to sleep. It has other uses, but too much for just getting to sleep. I think, anyway.

Helen

Subject: RE: BS: sleep problem
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 08:49 PM

I used to use the Guinness system. Lie and think of a pint of cold Guinness for exactly three minutes. If you don't fall asleep in that time get up and drink one then go back to bed. Repeat this ad nauseum. I guarantee that you will eventually sleep.

Now, the waking is another matter :-).

On a more serious note, as I get older my sleep patterns are not as secure. I wake more than I used to and sometimes have difficulty in "dropping off". I find that as long as I feel OK I am content to let Mr Sandman catch me when he can and try not to allow it to become an issue. One trick is to try and deliberately stay awake for an hour.

Dave Wynn (A.K.A. Spot the Dog)

Subject: RE: BS: sleep problem
From: Bert
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 09:00 PM

Try a hop pillow.

Subject: RE: BS: sleep problem
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 10:03 PM

I've done these things over the years when I have this trouble:

Mentally disassemble and reassemble, naming the parts as I go, an M-1 rifle (this dates from basic training). Talk about boring you to sleep!
But you can use any fairly complicated thing which in the past you knew very well but haven't used in years.

Create a science fiction story in my head, with emphasis on being very exact about how starship drives work, etc. VERY exact.

Try to remember all the words to a song I haven't sung in years.

Read. Not anything exciting, but something like a book of cartoons or even the instructions for the tax forms.

Do yoga -- breathing and relaxing as suggested above.

DON'T drink alcoholic beverages and DON'T depend upon pills (unless you really DO need them, preferably for something else).

Subject: RE: BS: sleep problem
From: GUEST,pattyClink
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 10:40 PM

Are you getting any exercise these days or just concentrating on the job/errands/etc? If not, get some! Don't do any right before bed but early evening, or sometime during the day, or at least lengthen your dog walks and stretch out at night, just do something. This can loosen the tight muscles of your mind as well as your body and set the stage for sleep.

Ditch caffeine after noon for a while til you see if it helps. Cocoa and mountain dew count too!

Lay out clothes and stuff early in the evening so it's all done for the next day, get all gnats out of your head and onto to-do-lists or whatever. So you can tell yourself, that's it, in the morning I'll be ready to go, nothing to worry about or remind myself about now.

Take a warm bath.

Get the room & bed the right temp for you, whether you like sleeping cool or warm, whatever.

Read something tedious.

Relax, get settled in bed. Now start some simple breathing exercises, like they do in yoga, just breathe deeply, concentrate on the in, out, fill the lungs completely, empty completely, count if you like, yada yada. I generally don't make it past the count of six.

Subject: RE: BS: sleep problem
From: GUEST,Fill in my name here?
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 10:50 PM

I contributed to one of these threads once.

I've done a lot of reading about insomnia over time, and the best fix for the problem I ever found was to work night shifts.

Some people use ionizers by their beds Ionizers can discharge excess electricity. Same principle that makes a walk on the beach so relaxing. Negatively-charged air coming in off the water discharges the + electrical buildup in your body. Could be excessive electricity in the neurons won't allow them to stop firing. Do a search for "ionizers" and see what you find.

Good luck.

Subject: RE: BS: sleep problem
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 11:26 PM

Pat, another thing from research-- they say we sleep better if not too warm. Maybe you worked so hard on getting bundled up, that you inadvertently got a little too warm for best sleep. Now, I don't mean you necessarily would FEEL too warm, but you can feel fine and actually be too warm to sleep deeply. You might try leaving off a layer of sleepwear in an area you know will be well-covered; not the feet, under your present circumstances, but maybe midsection or upper body.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: sleep problem
From: Jim Lad
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 12:38 AM

As one person already said: Don't stay in bed trying to sleep. Even if you get up for 5 minutes and watch a bit of a show.
Try reading about sleep disorders before you sleep. Understanding it may be the solution.
Never have a T.V. in the bedroom and never, ever do paperwork in bed.
Alcohol is a definite "No, No" but Leadfingers? Oh go on, what do you have to lose?

Subject: RE: BS: sleep problem
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 12:50 AM

What worked for me when I had a similar problem was my clock radio. I bought a pillow speaker and turned on a talk radio show at a very low, muffled volume. (Note: your radio must have an ear phone jack). Invariably I would fall asleep w/in 10 or so minutes. This technique has only worked for me with the speaker; a radio itself would not get to a low enough volume, and when commercials came on I would awaken.
Many electronics parts stores sell pillow speakers...I know Radio Shack does.
Good luck.

Subject: RE: BS: sleep problem
From: Partridge
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 01:50 AM

I remembered that I had a CD called Inward Harmony by Marcie. Luckily I managed to find it without any difficulty. I played it very quietly all night. I slept without the anxiety of work scenarios.
I think its a similar kind of CD to the one you mentioned Kat.

Ionisers - I already use, they are great, daughters boyfriend allergic to loads of stuff and sneezes all the time - not at my house anymore.

Herbal teas can take a bit of getting used to, I was recommended lime blossom - it tastes foul.

Apart from the odd power surge I'm not too warm in bed.

A friend swears by melatonin, but I don't think you can buy it in the UK

Thanks for all your input, even though there are quite a few threads on this subject, its very personal when it happens to you. You cannot see a solution, just coming out in the open and admitting it kind of exorcises it,

thanks

Pat x

Subject: RE: BS: sleep problem
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 09:06 AM

Yeah, I know it's not that easy relaxing. But focussing the worry on whether you are going to go to sleep or not is precsiely the wrong thing to do.

Subject: RE: BS: sleep problem
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 11:26 AM

I find watching a movie that I really really wanted to see works for me. There are many films that I have only ever seen in bits, never having stayed awake during the whole film!

Or murder mysteries, where the baddie is revealed at the end. Surefire way of getting me to sleep is to ask me to watch and tell you who did it.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: sleep problem
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 12:35 PM

I was going to add more to this th r   e aaa dddd bbbuuuttt   zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Subject: RE: BS: sleep problem
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 02:35 AM

By coincidence the new AARP Magazine that I received today has a short article on the problem of getting a good night's sleep. More of an essay about one person's experience trying to find a "cure," but it does mention several things that helped.

Most of the easy stuff has already been mentioned, but the points a couple that didn't get much emphasis:

1. Keep a schedule and make it a habit to get to bed at a consistent time.

2. Don't live in the bedroom: "Use the bedroom only for sleeping and sex."

3. Stay in the dark, including tossing a towel over the lighted clock face if it's apparent to you - or use a mask.

4. Be sure to avoid naps during the daytime.

The author indicates that for her, the "final cure" was psychotherapy, since she suffered from "hyperaroused nervous system" and needed "cognitive-behavioural therapy for insomnia" (CBT-I). It's at least a buzz-word your doctor might recognize to make a referal(?).

The new issue doesn't appear to be up yet at the AARP website, but if you're still awake in a week or so it would be something to read while you're up.

John

Subject: RE: BS: sleep problem
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 05:53 PM

You have generally been very stressed lately. John mentions above to use the bedroom only for sleeping and sex. If you aren't sleeping (alone in your double bed) the corollary (still alone in your double bed) is obvious (if indelicate), and it takes your mind off other things, relaxes you, and expends physical energy.

It works for most men, as far as I know, so it might well work for women.

The other thing is never leave only just enough time to get your sleep requirement. Sure as eggs you will worry about not sleeping. If you need 8 hours sleep, go to bed in time to leave yourself the spare hour when you wake up - that way if you don't sleep immediately you can think "Hm, I'm warm and comfortable, and I can doze on a little longer in the morning if I need to".   That relaxes you adn bingo.

Subject: RE: BS: sleep problem
From: Bee
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 06:50 PM

Things that have worked for me:

1. Radio on CBC Overnight (broadcasts from foriegn lands)
2. Reading until my eyes shut
3. Really strong Chamomile tea (often the teas you buy are old and weak)
4. Hauling out favourite memories and reliving them
5. Using a small soft shawl to lightly wrap my head, which is often cold (Nightcaps should never have gone out of style).

Subject: RE: BS: sleep problem
From: GUEST,Seiri Omaar
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 07:35 PM

Ack... I wouldn't recommend yoga myself. When I was doing it regularly, it had a tendency to GIVE me energy.
I actually find sudokus help me sleep... there's something relaxing about them, making all those numbers fit. Keep 'em nice and easy though, and if you find one that's not solving itself, skip it.
Calm music is good, housework is better. Oh, the lethargy from washing dishes.... ;)

Subject: RE: BS: sleep problem
From: GUEST,Lisa Null
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 11:20 PM

Try ovaltine (with malt --( the Enlgish kind) in war milk. The Ovaltine should help. Also, go to sleep listening to c-span. The drone of someone parsing census figures should put you to sleep in no time.

Subject: RE: BS: sleep problem
From: Partridge
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 02:33 AM

Thanks for you suggestions, I'm trying not to think too much about anything at the moment. Slept ok last night but woke looking like frog(not green and slimy)have put tea bags on the eyes!

Pat x

Subject: RE: BS: sleep problem
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 02:38 AM

Its 2:30 in the morning right now so I shouldn't offer any advice.

Subject: RE: BS: sleep problem
From: Grab
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 07:26 AM

If you're very busy and stressed, it's common not to have the energy/enthusiasm to get any exercise in. But it's common for sleep problems to be caused by lack of exercise. The problem then is that although you're mentally tired, your body hasn't had any work to do so you're physically craving something to work your muscles.

Don't do strength-building exercise if you're having trouble sleeping, because it kicks in all the adrenaline and you'll never sleep. But lower-rate cardio work - gentle jogging, brisk walk, etc - is good. Just some push-ups followed by a bit of stretching helps me.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: sleep problem
From: Desdemona
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 07:58 AM

I have a few "go to" methods, and in general I find that thinking about things in sequences is especially settling for me:

~"practice" something in your mind. I often mentally review morris dances (!); if I miss or forget a step, I have to start over

~"happy thoughts"...I think about pleasant memories: when my children were born, when I first met my partner, etc.

~ mentally "walking through" familiar places (your childhood home or school, a favourite place you've visited, etc.) step by step, from attic to basement if possible.

I think what happens is that by concentrating on these unstressful, somehat repetitive pictures or ideas, the static of ongoing daytime thoughts, resposnsibilities and concerns are temporarily muted. I also read somewhere that you should institute a mantra along the ines of "my bed is a worry-free zone."

Good luck!

~D