BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-

Subject: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 04:03 PM

I am waiting for the rightous indignation shown here about the following violation of soverignty:

"On at least two days, Iranian patrol boats crossed into Iraqi waters at the northern end of the Persian Gulf, the officials said.

The boats stayed inside Iraqi waters for several minutes before Iraqi security forces told them to leave. The Iranian boats did not approach the oil terminals."

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/02/19/iran.iraq/index.html

Or is it ONLY when the US acts that you have a reason to complain?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 04:16 PM

Several minutes, huh? I'm outraged.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 04:17 PM

You're joking of course.

Nobody would take seriously the word of unnamed U.S. officials who are not authorized to speak. Nor can you compare the actions of the Iranian military with those of the U.S.

Get real.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 04:26 PM

They were "told to leave"???? And they left?

Wow. Some invasion. ;-)

I wonder if it would have worked for Saddam to just tell the Americans to leave in 2003? Well, I guess not...

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: Barry Finn
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 04:28 PM

A few minutes? Swift Boats?

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 05:33 PM

This kind of thing is rather too familiar - Gulf of Tonkin incident

Of course the thing is, it doesn't really matter if few people actually believe these kind of stories, it's a ritual that has to be gone through in the process of getting ready to attack.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 06:32 PM

My daughter had had a couple of ponies over the years and her first full size horse made her nervous. Worse yet, he was gaited- a single footer. A motion she was unfamiliar with.

He was a creamy palomino and she called him 'Coffee'.

One day she came in the house practically gasping with fright.

She came close to my face. Mama, she gasped, Coffee tried to run away with me.

Knowing how well trained the horse was, I said, Well, pull him down.

She gasped, I did..

What did he do? I asked.

She gasped, again: He stopped.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 06:48 PM

It should perhaps be explained what an invasion really is so BB won't get confused again...

An invasion is a full scale military attack across the borders of a sovereign nation by infantry and mechanized and air forces of a foreign power, possibly with the aid of naval forces as well, if it is a seaborne invasion. It is done with the intention of conquering and occuping the recipient of the attack. It involves the direct use of massive lethal firepower by the above forces on the recipient. It does not cease when the recipient asks the invader to leave...

We have seen some invasions in the fairly recent past:

Iraq invaded Iran
Iraq invaded Kuwait
Israel invaded Lebanon (twice now)
A USA-led coalition invaded Iraq (twice now)
The USA invaded Panama
The USA invaded Grenada
A USA-led coalition invaded Afghanistan
China invaded Vietnam
Vietnam invaded Kampuchea

And there were others too. Iran has so far, however, invaded nobody.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 06:53 PM

"Iran has so far, however, invaded nobody." Well, there was King Xerxes, back in the time of the Ancient Greeks.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 07:09 PM

Well, then! King Xerxes must be deposed!

Regime change! Regime change!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 07:14 PM

Heh! I know where I'd like to see the regime change...

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 07:31 PM

"King Xerxes must be deposed! "


The finger, having writ, moves on...

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 07:58 PM

Several minutes?

They left when asked to go by the Iraqi security forces?

You are comparing this to almost four year of occupation by U.S. forces?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 03:19 AM

Hey bbruce - I've invaded America a few times. Left without being asked, as well. Does that put me on the Axis of Weevil?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: Grab
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 05:21 AM

BB, let us know when one Iranian soldier sets foot on Iraqi land, OK?

You know, the British invaded Greece a few years back. Me and my folks were on a sailing holiday, and we were about to moor up at the quay when a policeman came up and told us we couldn't stay there, so we went off and anchored somewhere else. Serious diplomatic incident there. And best not to mention the massed pedalo attack on Corfu the other year either.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 09:15 AM

LH left out a few invasions:

• 2006 invasion of Somalia by Ethiopia
  
• 2006 invasion of Lebanon by Israel
  
• 2003 invasion of Iraq by a coalition led by the United States
  
• 2001 invasion of Afghanistan by the United States and allies
  
• 1999 invasion of India by the Pakistan Army, the paramilitary Northern Light Infantry, and other irregulars
  
• 1998 invasion of Eritrea by Ethiopia
  
• 1998 invasion of Ethiopia by Eritrea
  
• 1994 invasion of Haiti by a multinational force (MNF) led by the United States
  
• 1993 invasion of Spratly Islands by Viet Nam
  
• 1991 invasion of Kuwait by a coalition force of 34 nations led by the United States
  
• 1990 invasion of Kuwait by Iraq
  
• 1989 invasion of Liberia launched from Côte d'Ivoire by the National Patriotic Front of Liberia
  
• 1989 invasion of Panama by the United States
  
• 1983 invasion of Grenada by the United States and allied Caribbean nations
  
• 1982 invasion of Lebanon by Israel
  
• 1982 invasion of Falkland Islands by the United Kingdom
  
• 1982 invasion of Falkland Islands initially by Argentine civilians, followed by official Argentina forces
  
• 1980 invasion of Iran by Iraq
  
• 1979 invasion of Afghanistan by the Soviet Union
  
• 1979–1988 invasions of Thailand by Vietnamese troops
  
• 1979 invasion of Vietnam by China
  
• 1979 invasion of Uganda by Tanzania and Ugandan exiles
  
• 1978 invasion of Tanzania by Uganda
  
• 1978 invasion of Lebanon by Israel
  
• 1978 invasion of Cambodia by Viet Nam, with Soviet support
  
• 1977 invasion of Cambodia by Viet Nam
  
• 1977 invasion of Ethiopia by Somalia and Western Somali Liberation Front irregulars
  
• 1975 invasion of East Timor by Indonesia
  
• 1975 invasion of Hong Kong by Vietnamese refugees
  
• 1975 invasion of South Viet Nam by North Vietnam
  
• 1975 invasion of Spanish Sahara by Morocco
  
• 1974 invasion of Cyprus by Turkey
  
• 1973 invasion of Israel by Egypt Syria and other Arab allies
  
• 1972 invasion of South Viet Nam by North Viet Nam
  
• 1971 invasion of East Pakistan by India
  
• 1971 invasion of Laos by South Viet Nam
  
• 1970 invasion of Cambodia by the United States and South Viet Nam
  
• 1968 invasion of Czechoslovakia by the Warsaw Pact
  
• 1967 invasions of Biafra by Nigeria
  
• 1967 invasions of Nigeria by Biafra
  
• 1967 invasion of Syria by Israel
  
• 1967 invasion of Jordan by Israel
  
• 1967 invasion of Israel by Syria
  
• 1967 invasion of Israel by Jordan
  
• 1967 invasion of Egypt by Israel
  
• 1965 invasion of Pakistan by India
  
• 1965 invasion of India by Pakistan Army and irregulars
  
• 1965–1968 invasions of South Viet Nam by the United States
  
• 1965 invasion of Dominican Republic by United States and OAS
  
• 1964 invasion of the Turkish Cypriot Enclave Kokkina by Cyprus and Greece
  
• 1961 invasion of Netherlands New Guinea by Indonesia
  
• 1961 invasion of Goa by India
  
• 1961 invasion of Cuba by Cuban allies of the United States, particularly its CIA
  
• 1958 invasion of Laos by North Viet Nam
  
• 1956 invasion of Hungary by the Soviet Union
  
• 1956 invasion of Egypt by France, United Kingdom and Israel
  
• 1951 invasion of North Korea by United Nations and South Korea
  
• 1951 invasion of South Korea by the Chinese People's Volunteer Army and North Korea
  
• 1950 invasion of North Korea by United Nations and South Korea
  
• 1950 invasion of South Korea by North Korea
  
• 1950 invasion of Tibet by China
  
• 1948 invasion of Lebanon and Egypt by Israeli forces
  
• 1948 invasion of Israel by Lebanese, Syrian, Iraqi, Egyptian, Transjordanian and other forces
  
• 1947 invasion of Kashmir by Pakistan irregulars
  
• 1946 invasion of Northern Viet Nam by France
  
  

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 10:01 AM

Interesting list. Pretty depressing picture of how we humans spend our time. And that's even without including air attacks outside war.

I note that Iran only figures in that list as a victim of invasion. The USA features on nine occasions, always as the invading party.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 10:38 AM

How about the British invasion of France, Belgium and Germany in 1943-44? Or 1916-1918?


If one is attacked, it becomes ok to counter-attack the other side.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: jeffp
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 10:42 AM

And this is relevant how? Who in Iraq invaded the US?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: Grab
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 10:55 AM

OK, Bruce. Let us know when Iran sends its landing craft and marines in, then - or when it sends its navy to shell Iraqi ports.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 01:51 PM

And who in Iran ever invaded anybody (apart from Xerxes)?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 02:14 PM

Very interesting list LH and BB.

Apparently Iran has never invaded anyone and nobody has ever invaded the U.S.

It gives us lots to think about.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 02:24 PM

nobody has ever invaded the U.S.

Aside from the Americans, of course...

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: jeffp
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 02:26 PM

And that little bit of fun in 1812-14.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 02:31 PM

And Japan in 1941...

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: jeffp
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 02:42 PM

Pearl Harbor? An attack for sure, but an invasion? I don't think so.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 02:43 PM

Aleutian Islands occupied...

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 02:44 PM

And the Phillipines were a US possesion at the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: jeffp
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 02:49 PM

Possession, not part of the country, as were the Aleutians.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 03:27 PM

Does the acquisition of the territory now known as the United States count as one invasion or multiple invasions?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 03:36 PM

How about the Norman invasion of England?

Or the Angles and Saxons?

Or the Celts?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 03:43 PM

USA invaded the Moon when I was a kid. Saw it on TV.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: jeffp
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 03:43 PM

How about 'em?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 03:47 PM

All invasions of another country- so we need to hold them responsible for their actions...

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: jeffp
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 03:49 PM

Well, the Normans took over Britain. I think they've been punished enough. And the others have to deal with them. Same result. And we've got you.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 03:51 PM

"Aleutian Islands occupied..."

Not occupied. Landed on, but hardly occupied. They were almost immediately repulsed.

I'm old enought to remember.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 03:55 PM

Just looked it up and I stand corrected:

A small Japanese force occupied the islands of Attu and Kiska, but the remoteness of the islands and the difficulties of weather and terrain meant that it took nearly a year for a large U.S. force to eject them. The islands had very little strategic value for either side. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 05:05 PM

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/brochures/aleut/aleut.htm


Here is the best account of the battle plans and invasion of the Aleutians, complete with photos, that I have read. The Japanese were actually there from from early June 1942 to late August 1943.

Aside: Alaska is BIG. Attu, the most westerly settlement on the Aleutian Chain, is 1200 miles from Anchorage on the mainland. Across the water to the northeast is Juneau 1900 miles away.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 05:08 PM

sounds like an invasion to me...

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 05:14 PM

Here's a page with a complete list of all wars Persia/Iran has been involved in since 945

Pretty local stuff really.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 07:33 PM

"nobody has ever invaded the U.S."

... but I know WHY the White House was first painted white... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 07:43 PM

BB, that's sort of like Star Fleet claiming that Earth has been invaded because a Klingon ship has landed on a couple of wads of dirty snow and ice way out in the Oort Cloud. Keep an eye on them, perhaps, and run them off when it becomes convenient to do so, but it hardly constitutes an "invasion" of Earth.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 08:21 PM

Don, that is just like a description of the Tonkin Bay incident...

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 07:09 AM

Sorry, Don.

It was Little Hawk whe declared it an invassion- MY words were

"about the following violation of soverignty"


If you choose to attack me for what I say, try making sure that I have said it.

Grab,

"BB, let us know when one Iranian soldier sets foot on Iraqi land, OK?"

Will you accept the military "advisors" presently helping the insurgents in Iraq? Or are they just armament delivery personnel?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 07:19 AM

"Bush's January announcement that he had ordered a second aircraft carrier battle group to the Persian Gulf and would share Patriot air-defense missile systems with U.S. allies in the region raised fears that the Iraq war could spread. So have its accusations that Iran is supplying advanced explosives to Shiite Muslim militias inside Iraq.

American-led raids have led to the arrests of several Iranians, and the administration has authorized the use of deadly force against suspected Iranian agents in Iraq. But Snow said the issue is being dealt with as a force-protection measure within Iraq."


http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/02/20/iran.us/index.html

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 07:22 AM

""BB, let us know when one Iranian soldier sets foot on Iraqi land, OK?"

Will you accept the military "advisors" presently helping the insurgents in Iraq? Or are they just armament delivery personnel? "



Sorry, I thought you were talking about Vietnam, for a moment... those 60s flashbacks can be murder....

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 07:23 AM

So what was "wrong" for the US is ok for Iran?


Or are you stating approval for the US actions in Vietnam?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 07:30 AM

A dumb little shit like me just knows that 'the big boys in the playground' can get away with doing whatever they want and telling whatever lies they want.

But that doesn't mean that I don't know lies and bullying when I see it...

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 07:33 AM

You fail to answer my question.


Are you approving of actions by Iran that you would criticize the US for?

Or are you approving of the US actions in Vietnam?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 09:04 AM

BB, the thread title was your choice, not Little Hawk's.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 09:13 AM

(Puts fingers in ears)

La la la, la la la, la la la...

I live next to a mad woman (serious, not kidding!) - it's useless trying to have a rational conversation with her either.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 09:19 AM

So, fooles, you concede here as well?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 09:41 AM

The facts are irrelvant - you have another 'victory'!

"Never argue with a fool - onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 09:49 AM

you fail to answer my question
Hah!
The killer thrust.
And, hurrah - bearded bruce wins another argument. The man's a philosophical titan, isn't he? I'd certainly be wary of taking him on in dialectic; heck the man has an absolute arsenal of killer facts up his sleeves and is as articulate as hell to boot.
C'mon all you liberal wieners - run away before you get crushed by his intellect.
In fact, before we even start on another tack, I'd better concede everything now. I am simply not worthy. You win, bb; your arguments are simply unassailable.

Now, where do I find a new wing for my pig?

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 09:57 AM

"You win, bb; your arguments are simply unassailable"

Well, a battle of wits with those who refuse to think is not hard to win.

Especially when they have not presented any facts about the points under diecussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 10:02 AM

Facts? What f*cking fact do you need to refute your ludicrous claim that Iran has invaded Iraq?
For heavens sake, take the tinfoil off your head and go outside for some fresh air!

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 12:35 PM

Seems to me that Britain invaded the Us back in 1812 or so--did some incendiary action in Washington .

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 12:50 PM

I also seem to remember there was some kind of rather larger scale invasion of Iraq a couple of years ago...

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 01:02 PM

Exercises and training by Iran that involve the areas around the Strait of Hormuz are not an invasion. Nor are suspected Iranian agents, invaders. In fact, if Iran is trying "to intimidate and to strike fear in those in the region," I'd say that it is probably more of a defensive measure.

None of the above constitute an invasion.

If Iran sends its army into Iraq, you let me know.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 01:27 PM

Invasions by both sides, across the US - Canadian border, very much like the "Iranian violation of Sovereignty" described, occur about weekly during salmon fishing season in the northwest. ... Nearly always, in the Canadian description, by "Native American Savages" (who are about the only ones who can get a US license to fish for salmon).

There seems to be some significant difference of opinion between the two countries as to what consitutes "territorial waters," but the problems generally get resolved (after the season ends) as "a little disagreement between friends."

John

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 01:35 PM

" Nearly always, in the Canadian description, by "Native American Savages" (who are about the only ones who can get a US license to fish for salmon)."


Spoken like a man from Kansas. lol Please elucidate.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 01:35 PM

BB, when I posted my initial comment about the Aleutian Islands, you followed with "sounds like an invasion to me..." And now you're telling me I got it wrong because it was Little Hawk and not you who said it?

You must have taken lessons in tap dancing from Fred Astaire.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 01:47 PM

Don,

My initial post said " the following violation of soverignty:"


Little Hawk used the term invasion, and the discussions I have been replying to has been about various other invasions.

As Wolfgang correctly points out, my choice of title for the thread
is probably to blame for the confusion.

My comment on your statement about the Japanese invasion of the Aleutians was in reference to that invasion.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 01:47 PM

There was also Pancho Villa in 1916.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 01:48 PM

btw, I would rather take lessons from Ginger Rogers.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 02:03 PM

JohninKansas - While I do not dispute what you have said about the American fisheries invading Canadian waters, I have to wonder where you found this: "in the Canadian description, by "Native American Savages" (who are about the only ones who can get a US license to fish for salmon)." Source please.

That certainly does not sound like Canadian language and it doesn't even make sense since Natives in Canada have first rights to food fish in our waters. I doubt if Natives would call other Natives, savages or if our Federal Fisheries would call anyone a savage.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 02:53 PM

Further to dianavan's question, I also question- dispute JiK's assertion that "Native American Savages"(who are about the only ones who can get a US license to fish for salmon)."

That language is so out of date it is embarrassing. Be that as it may, Native Americans are certainly NOT "about the only ones who can get a US license to fish for salmon". Wherever did you get that idea, John?

A lot of Native Americans fish for a living, no doubt, but every single one of the fishermen that I actually know are white, Anglo, caucasion (sic) people, both men and women. And there are LOTS of them.

Maybe you mixed up salmon fishing with subsistence issues? Currently subsistence fishing and other kinds of harvesting are more important to more Native Americans than they are to said white, Anglo, caucasian(sic) people. A good deal of their culture depends on it.

That said, subsistence harvesting is currently permitted in a number of rural, isolated areas. For everybody.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 08:18 PM

It has been a few years ago, but a friend who is "Native American" and who held a salmon license was required to obtain appropriate "identification papers" for doing business in and with Canada, and that is the exact language that Canada used in the entry for "nationality" on the papers he received.

News reports subsequent to that time indicated that Canada was considering a change in that terminology, and they may have done so; but I haven't heard whether a change was made official.

Most of the northwest small fishing boats that fish for salmon do use "native rights" salmon permits via partnership with a qualified person or by purchase of the boat - and license - from one. There are other ways of getting a license, but the catch limits for a qualified "tribal/native license" are much more liberal. The license is issued to the boat, based on full or partial ownership by a qualified "native," and can/must be passed with sale of the boat.

Or so says my shaman friend.

But the point intended was only that "incursions" of the kind described are almost a routine thing in any coastal region.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: Peace
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 08:24 PM

'It has been a few years ago, but a friend who is "Native American" and who held a salmon license was required to obtain appropriate "identification papers" for doing business in and with Canada, and that is the exact language that Canada used in the entry for "nationality" on the papers he received.'

The term "Savage" has not appeared on government stuff since the 1800s. I think your friend is stretching the truth, John. I don't doubt that YOU are telling it as you heard it, but yer buddy might be stretchin' it just a bit.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 08:27 PM

No stretch Peace. I've seen the documents. (ca. 1994)

But I didn't realize the Canadians would be all that sensitive about it. He thought it was quite a joke.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: Peace
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 08:35 PM

Good God.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 11:43 PM

John - Its really difficult to wrap my head around a government document using the term, savage. I was a Fisheries officer in the 80's, and I never heard anybody use that kind of language. Even if somebody thought in those terms, it would be very unwise to put it in writing.

Never-the-less, you are right about international boundaries at sea. Foreign vessels quite often venture into Canadian waters and although its frowned upon, its never referred to as an invasion. When it comes to fish, however, the situation can become quite heated.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 12:13 AM

I don't know when Canada started designating Native Americans as First Nation people- but that is a very far cry from Native American Savages. It boggles the mind. John, it appears now that you are speaking solely of Canada. However, you DID assert nonsense about US salmon fishing. Please address that.

In the US, Alaska specifically, fishing rights and permits are far harder and more expensive to acquire than they used to be. But that is ONLY because of the quota system. It has NOTHING to do with one's ethnic or racial status or even one's gender. There are gasp women commercial fishermen. Neither does a person have to find a Native American titular partner.

When fishermae retire from fishing or moves out of the state or whatever they are free to sell their permits. I don't know how much they are worth but I do know that they sell for more than $20,000.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: Metchosin
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 05:08 AM

John, because Canada is a bilingual country, what you and your friend probably saw was a typical Canadian legal form, which included headings in both English and French, side by side, hence Name/Nom or Street/Rue.   

While some Canadian legal documents still use archaic English terms, such as "spinster", to describe an unmarried woman, the derogatory term "savage" is not a legal term in English on such documents in Canada.

However, the term "sauvage" was quite possibly used in the French section on the same form. As far as I'm able to ascertain, it used to be standard legal parlance for the term "Indian" in Quebec and quite possibly still is. Apparently the word doesn't have the same connotations in French as it does in English......

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: ard mhacha
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 09:01 AM

I am seeing and hearing daily, armed men with incomprehensible accents, these foreigners are still here for the past 1000 years, and Iraq thinks it has troubles.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: bobad
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 01:45 PM

It is possible that a misinterpretation occured as the word "sauvage" in French means wild, as in bluet sauvage = wild blueberry. A reference to wild salmon as saumon sauvage may have been misinterpreted. I am only speculating as I can't imagine that terminology being used that recently as a descriptive for First Nation Canadians. It would be interesting to know the truth of this matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign nation invades Iraq-
From: Peace
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 05:34 PM

I second bobad's post--AND a few others. John, I know you are giving the info to the best of, but straight up front, I don't believe it.