BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 15 Aug 12 - 05:46 PM

mine's a similar tale. you can educate all you want and give your kid a house with the daily mail and no books and no music and say to him 'the last 7 generations of your family have been in the border regiment' and it meant absolutely nothing when i visited my sister at stirling uni (1971) and heard john martyn and dylan -play it loud! met real people with real hair and real politics - and the drink and the dope - (at 15)the defining weekend of my life. nothing much changed til a few years later, when i was a student there myself in loon pants and velvet jacket, i saw the damned. well - that was a blast - shook things up a bit.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Aug 12 - 09:22 AM

4 Decades ago my family proudly believed my passing the 11 plus
would be a passport to life as a comfortably well off gentleman.
Grammar School would educate the council estate out of me
and lead to a good permanent job in the Civil Service
and membership of an exclusive golf club.

Unfortunately what good education did do was divert me into a life of cultural & political dissent,
and a life as a pennyless unemployable smart arse agit pop punk folk guitarist........

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Musket
Date: 15 Aug 12 - 07:03 AM

Don't fidget during an interview Al. It gives the game away.

They instinctively knew I had a ferret up my trousers.

And after all that money I spent on elocution lessons in Rotherham...

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Aug 12 - 06:56 AM

I wish I was posh. I think posh people have an easier time of it. Particularly when it comes to getting jobs. Interviews - that sort of thing.

Underneath, we're all idiots. But some accents and mannerisms give the game away too easily.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 15 Aug 12 - 05:36 AM

'incompetence' certainly - but indolence too. the intensity of the class war being waged on 99% has been incessant since the '70s. we have lost badly with no sign of a meaningful fightback in europe or america. we just can't be arsed - surely we could get rid of them with a bit of effort. having stolen much of value in the many countries of the world -now they are looking to steal democracy. financiers in the greek government, 'legalised' electoral fraud in the usa and tories doing their anti-democracy thing in the uk.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Musket
Date: 15 Aug 12 - 05:28 AM

So did I. Didn't half bring out a few stereotypes and most laughable of all, those who question the right of those who are different to them having the right to be put up for election?

I don't think the governing of this country is poor due to dogma, I think it is poor due to incompetence. There is a difference... A report yesterday in The Indescribablyboring questioning how so many senior civil servants, including many permanent secretaries have voted with their feet over the last three years.

Now that IS scary. Many USA commentators including past Presidents have admired how we only change the politicians at elections and the secretariat remains the same which allows for good continuity. Sounds like a lot of incompetent ministers have lost the handbrake....

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 14 Aug 12 - 07:29 PM

true enough - just quite enjoyed this thread

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Aug 12 - 04:32 PM

That diatribe is very tired indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 14 Aug 12 - 03:42 PM

arrogant? posh? maybe we are too polite to these people and should treat them with the contempt they deserve. they are perpetuating a system that is robbing us all for their benefit. apparently they are so wealthy and well connected they don't need to pay tax and can't be prosecuted for their crimes - so they should be made to pay in other ways. anyone any suggestions?

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Acorn4
Date: 29 Apr 12 - 01:19 PM

Apparently labour now have an eleven point lead in the polls even with Ed Milband.

I also like the quote earlier in the week about George Galloway:- "Why does everyone take an instant dislike to me?" -- "It saves time!"

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Apr 12 - 05:34 AM

Maid's day off today - does that mean I have to do the washing up?? At least she was here to post our votes for Boris!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Musket
Date: 29 Apr 12 - 05:25 AM

No Akenaton, I may or may not be arrogant, but you haven't put that to the test.

You see, your homophobic rants on these threads demonstrate that you want to change people who you don't agree with. I reckon that is a far better description of arrogance, don't you?

I don't want to change the world, (except in asking that people see other people as equals, and not judge them through bigoted preconceptions,) I just point out that democracy is possibly a crap system, but it is also the best hope we have.

Hence being bemused by Bridge's attempts to get people to hate others based on agreeing with their take on life. I didn't even hate Th*tcher, just hated what her policies did and how misguided they were. I have similar views on Osborn's priorities. I think Cameron is too hands off, hence cabinet running riot. Mind you, if he was more hands on, that could be a disaster too as he is not a good Prime Minister.

But I fully accept that they are there till an election says otherwise, and I shall cast my vote accordingly. In the meantime, I remain bemused by supposedly educated people spouting the idea that things should change by other than fair means, and by fair, I mean democracy. it's a little faded, a little ragged around the edges, but it still fits and still keeps us warm.

Oh, and sorry for answering your posts. I recall I once said I couldn't see any reason to ever try to engage you in debate, but that's the thing when you are not arrogant, you can change your mind.

Going to get a bath now. Pip Pip

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Apr 12 - 04:21 AM

I've got a "Next" jacket...which i only wear on very special occasions and want to look "smart"??? :0(

How did you know the guys suit was "obscenely expensive"...or designer???.....I wouldn't have a clue about such things.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: GUEST,Hookey Wole
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 09:28 PM

Back in the yuppie early 90's I was suffering a suit and tie job in central London

[me - poor wannabe mixed media artist desperate to pay off credit card debt].

I remember one morning being crushed as usual on the tube
on the way to another grinding boring life wasting days office tele marketing survival work;

me squashed right up close to an immaculately groomed classicly posh handsome youngish city banker type.

He was wearing one of the most obcenely expensive designer suits I'd ever seen.

Far better tailored material even than my own vain foppish office manager.

[by comparison, my jacket was 30 quid from "Next"]

Tube banker boys suit must have been at least 500 quid from the family tailor..

I was so crushed up and far too intimately close - morning rush hour.

So close I was overpowered in discomfort,

he reeked of shit - honking bad stink of badly wiped bum.

Lunch time at the pub, I dined out well on that story..

He must have been so posh and soo cosseted by 'nanny'
that for all his money and city glamour appearance,

he couldn't have ever learned how to properly wipe and wash his own arse.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 07:17 PM

When arrogance was being handed out Ian you were first in the queue, so I suppose we must treat your posts on the susject with respect, but if given a choice I think I would rather listen to Richard, who at least believes in real change though his methodology is a bit on the "liberal" side for my taste.

You on the other hand, seem to favour just keeping on as we are and hoping something will turn up.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 02:27 PM

currently reading -amongst several others- naomi klein's 'shock doctrine' frightening and very thorough account of the ruthlessness with which the american military/industrial elite and chums have been enforcing a particularly nasty strain of neo-fascist capitalism wherever they can. also reading alan davies' autobiography - a wee bit easier and one or two better jokes. and gormenghast, again.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Musket
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 01:56 PM

I do read Bridge, and I hope I learn too.

I learned never to judge a book by its cover for starters. Even arrogant posh books...

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 11:01 AM

No, Mither, I said I used to be a one nation Tory. I was 20 then. I grew up and saw what the arrogant posh boys did. But keep reading, and you might learn.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Musket
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 10:11 AM

Enjoy retirement Backwoodsman. Everyone I know or knew reckons retirement can be a bit too busy! (I "retired" when I sold up some business interests and resigned from the board, but within a short time, I started working again. I sincerely hope you are more clever than I and enjoy retirement instead!)

Al, point taken. Manton was of course a Yorkshire area pit physically in Nottinghamshire, so was a focal point for all. Hence criminal elements and radicals on all sides (Met and Merseyside being the constabulary criminal elements) focussed on Manton. My point was that some on these threads have been in favour of suspending democracy if it interfered with their ideology. I have little time for the naive at best, condescending at worst attitudes of the "arrogant posh boys" but also accept that many people voted for them, so they have at least as much right to govern as any if voting patterns are reliable.

I've just returned from South Africa where, on Robben Island, I spoke with Yasin Mohammed, who worked during apartheid in many countries, raising the profile of jailed civil rights activists and comrade of Mandella, and Sobukwe. He quoted Mandella in saying that to replace one system with another turns the oppressed into the oppressor, so what have you improved? These guys didn't want to govern, they wanted to ask the whole population who they wished to see govern for all.

So perhaps instead of questioning the right of "arrogant posh boys" to govern, perhaps stating that they would not get your vote would be a a bit better? Me? I'd vote for them tomorrow if they could deliver my idea of equitable government, same as I would vote for Screaming Lord Such if a) he could deliver and b) he was still alive to do it.

The trick is not to have a chip on your shoulder. Roots and heritage don't make good government, an economy that can and does deliver an equitable social program does that, regardless of whoever speaks for it and debates it.

Mind you, I treat Tory dogma with the same disdain as Bridge's barbecued donkey on the road to Damascus. (If you are sad enough to read everything he writes, you may recall he used to call himself a one nation Tory....)

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 09:59 AM

"""Substantial Pension" sounds better still.""

Or would, if we hadn't been robbed of five billion by "Victor Meldrew" Brown and the arrogant social climbers of the previous thirteen years.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 06:27 AM

"Substantial Pension" sounds better still.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Acorn4
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 05:27 AM

That word "retirement" has a lovely ring to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 03:25 AM

Good luck fella.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 02:58 AM

'Guest' above was me, BTW, posting from my work computer which seems not to want to store cookies any more.
But I finish for good on Monday, Free At Last, so who gives a flying fuck any more?

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 02:57 AM

LOL!

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 11:25 AM

memo to me ' must read all the messages '

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 09:22 AM

Bonzo was quoting from Ian Mather's post.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 07:58 AM

Which was your pit then bonzo ? I didn't know you were a collier back then, and in Yorkshire ?

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 07:24 AM

See! We dont have to come out of the same political egg to find common ground.
Common sense always trumps political ideology, thats what I've been trying to say ever since I fell into this snake pit.

We should try to examine every issue and see if there is anything positive there, try to pay attention to the facts and not be ruled by political doctrine.....as political doctrine is always manipulation of one kind or another.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 07:09 AM

"""liberalism" has come to mean abdication of personal responsibility.....the "someone else ill fix it" syndrome,usually the state, or anyone but "me".""

BLOODY HELL!

That tears it, good and proper. I agree with Akenaton

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 06:15 AM

"I saw Scargill claim every Yorkshire area pit voted to strike, which was curious as my pit voted not to, but the delegate said we had. A few lads questioned this and two ended up in hospital, and some others, yours truly included, were reminded of the time our wives took our children to nursery etc."

Scargill was a hideous arsehole.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 04:38 AM

Mither - I was following Nadine Dorries' summation.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 04:37 AM

Ake - I quite agree with your synthesis at 0305 Mudcat time, but most of the time I have great difficulty fathoming your meaning.   I thought you were proposing to remove benefits. That would be an uncivilised proposition.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 03:58 AM

"Worth a thread on its own!"

Maybe, though I'm no historian so I couldn't make any real objective case for the feelings I came away with.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 03:09 AM

Guest CS....I agree with quite a lot of your post.

Worth a thread on its own!

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 03:05 AM

Richard...I cant believe you wrote that last post, a simplistic cop-out if ever I heard one.

I think you know exactly what I meant....that people do not matter to the leaders of this "democracy", if they are not viable, financially competitive "units".
" give them just enough to keep them fed, quiet and dependent.....and let the bastards rot"

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 02:30 AM

I think maybe your view of the miners strike depends on where you lived as much as anything. I had a miner/roadie at the time who similarly railroaded by the other lot. And in the end who was lying about the future of the mining industry under the tories - Scargill, or Thatcher and Tebbit. Tebbit I seem to remember guaranteeing that not a single miner would lose their jobs.

We had to have coppers patroling our street to protect the houses of NUM members.You were closer to Yorkshire, Ian. I was in the Sutton in Ashfield area.

What a long time ago it seems....

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: GUEST,Ian Mather sans cookie
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 12:38 AM

Greetings from a bored bloke waiting for a delayed flight in Dubia. Must be bored to have read this thread.

I believe Bridge calls this thread something about posh boys running politics or something like that. (hard to scroll up all the time when using phone. ). There's something about style, substance and outcome here. If Cameron delivered a social program funded by economic growth, I wouldn't really care what his particular favourite brand of cavia was. Likewise, I have not been impressed up to yet with this coalition but wish to see any government succeed at pragmatic outcomes rather than be bitter, twisted and giggling at every cock up they make.

A question for a few of the usual suspects. Would you wish to see your views turn info reality through democratic means or isn't democracy a required process? You see, speaking as an ex miner who was out in 84, I saw Scargill claim every Yorkshire area pit voted to strike, which was curious as my pit voted not to, but the delegate said we had. A few lads questioned this and two ended up in hospital, and some others, yours truly included, were reminded of the time our wives took our children to nursery etc.

Be careful when comparing those who wish to govern and those who wish to govern. Their background and ideology is closer to each other than you may think.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 05:59 PM

Rather an aside to the discussion underway here, but I recall how profoundly affected I was a year or two ago on visiting a folk museum housing a number of traditional crafts displays.

A cobblers for one, which demonstrated the thoroughness of the work required to fix a pair of shoes. Another display showcased cider making, and the beautiful machinery involved, machinery which once forged lasted generations.

I left with a real sense of how the industrial revolution had in fact destroyed the working classes and reduced them to push button automatons numbly repeating actions which provided nothing more than a shabby product for conspicuous consumption by their economic betters. It really made me want to re-read some Marx.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 05:12 PM

Unemployment (or inability to do a job) is not caused by benefits. It's the economy stupid.

Benefits make it better, not worse - and indeed boost money circulation and effective demand.

There are very very few on benefits of any kind who would not rather be earning in a job - not least because most real jobs pay more.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 04:36 PM

For fuck sake!...its not about poor people fiddling a few quid, its about a system which is prepared to countenance huge swathes of the population who have no "purpose in life" other than drawing their weekly giro.
The benefit system is not there to help poor people ...it is there to keep them quiet!

1 in 5 of our kids unemployed.....for ever, and nobody says a word.
Why are they condemned to a life without meaning?
Because this system still measures the value of humanity in pounds and pense.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 02:46 PM

Agreed Pete

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 02:30 PM

sadly it isn't 'the people sitting at their desks' who make the decisions with benefit claims - nor is it your gp who has any say about whether you qualify for disability benefit. the job centre staff are over-worked and generally do their best to be sympathetic and helpful. the crucial decisions for claimants are made by a french computer. it is beyond me how so many people can become so agitated about people with nothing maybe fiddling a few quid in the most difficult circumstances while seemingly unconcerned about the far more costly and criminal activities of the wealthy and powerful. we are a very rich country where no-one needs to suffer the misery of poverty.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 12:54 PM

Well I'm not sure that I agree. Why shouldn't people who are down on their luck not be entotled to self respect and a positive self image. Just basic human dignity. We are not defined by our circumstances - a man or woman is not merely a member of the unemployed or a medical condition - eg a paraplegic. he may be all those things and yet be a poet or a philospher, or artist.

Humanity is the gold standard that we are all entitled to.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Acorn4
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 10:58 AM

"Thats before we start on a benefit system which de-humanises us, an "equality" agenda which promotes "victimhood" as a positive state of mind,and has become an unaffordable idiocy."

Although I've been arguing mostly on the "leftish" side of the fence on this thread, I think this is partially true . The problem comes in getting machinery to discriminate between genuine cases of hardship and "dependency as a way of life" - it is unfortunate that the weakest generally end up the real "victims" as opposed to those who know how to "play the system".

Do we really trust the people sitting at the desks are good enough to make fair decisions?

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 10:28 AM

I `ad that Nadine Dorries in my cab the other day, in the business sense, you understand. She`s a big old gal but well turned out.
I said, " Morning Nads. You`ve got them posters on that Mudcat going on about you. Did you go into one about Dave and Gleggy `cos you`re losing your constituency when they change the boundaries?"
She said, "Not at all, Jim. It `as nothing to do with that. I think they are both two faced and out of touch with life today. They are just out for themselves."
I said, "I s`pose you`d know all about that after the Parliamentary expenses scandal!!"

Whaddam I like??

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 08:56 AM

Sounds like for someone trying to avoid Scameron you've already been pretty brainwashed.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 07:39 AM

Al...I have honestly never voted Tory....and Cameron seems the type of guy that I would walk a mile to avoid....just like Blair.

But that does not stop me acknowledging that there are some aspects of social conservatism which are benefitial to society.

"liberalism" has come to mean abdication of personal responsibility.....the "someone else ill fix it" syndrome,usually the state, or anyone but "me".
Thats before we start on a benefit system which de-humanises us, an "equality" agenda which promotes "victimhood" as a positive state of mind,and has become an unaffordable idiocy.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 06:56 AM

You only have part of the definition of working class there Bonzo. The power of command or its absence come into the equation too.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 06:54 AM

"working class people don't own a business, no matter how small."

That's funny we have around 200 self employed manual workers as clients - all owning their business and all very ill spoken (wasting our time with Child Tax Credit Claims) working class.