BS: Torture in a civilised world

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:06 PM

Oh, yeah... I forgot about all of the Christian sects who believe that all of the Bible, including the old testament, is the literal word of God. You might not be one of them, Teribus, but there's lots of them here in the US. Should we start torturing and killing them also?

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:03 PM

If the old testament is completely irrelevant to Christians, Teribus, why is it included in the Bible that Christians use?

And what about Jews? Are you saying that we should fight everyone whose holy text says that all people who believe differently than they do should be killed? If that's that case, I guess you advocate doing to Jews what you are saying we should do to Muslims, because for Jews, it's all old testament.

Or do you just think we should kill Muslims and leave everyone else whose holy text advocates killing non-believers alone?

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 05:08 PM

I'm surprised anyone thinks this world is civilised.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: Royston
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 04:56 PM

Well done Teribus shit for brains.

Your source was actually saying that Muslims cannot and must not kill others who do not follow Islam

It's just that you are a lying sod and distorted what he said which was the bit you selected, followed by:

This is God's law specific to messengers as I have explained above. Since a messenger of God is not living with us anymore, and we do not know that which is in the hearts of people, we cannot call them 'infidels' and commit such acts. In a time such as today, every soul must continue to strive to find the truth and live by it.

Thanks for proving the argument against you.

Fuck, it's like shooting fish in a barrel around here.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 04:39 PM

Apologies,

Forgot this link:

http://www.omeriqbal.com/a/21

Read through both the question and the Response, what I copied was from the response.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 04:33 PM

Books of the Old Testament?? Not really big believers in the old testament over this side , being brought up as Christians:

Definition:
A Christian is a person who adheres to Christianity, an Abrahamic, monotheistic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, who Christians believe is the Messiah (the Christ in Greek-derived terminology) prophesied in the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible, and the Son of God.

Jesus of Nazareth may have been prophesised in the Old Testament but his teachings have got nothing to do with the Old Testament.

NAB = New American Bible 1998? Anyway never read it, nor will I ever read it.

NLT = New Living Translation 1996? Never read it, nor will I ever read it.

Being a bit of a traditionalist there only ever was one version of the Bible - The King James Authorised Version and in that the Old Testament was only ever used as an addendum to Admiralty Signals Publications to provide Captain 'D's and Flag Officers with witty and relevant signals for every occasion.

By the way does "doomed" mean kill??

Only New testament text appears to be taken from The Epistle to the Romans

"God's death penalty" - how does this instruct anyone to kill anybody does it not mean God's penalty in death?

Still if that is what you are reading over there in the the home of the brave and the land of the free, the land of Hollywood and Walt Disney then its no bloody wonder that so many of you are so Fucked Up.

The pillocks who jumped onboard the Mayflower should have hung around over this side for a few centuries to see how it all turned out, on the religious stakes we seem to come off with the slightly saner outlook on life.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 01:19 PM

Sorry Royston. I somehow managed to miss your post. You did a much better job than me.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 01:16 PM

Oops! Looks like Teribus doesn't know his Bible. Not much of a Christian, I guess...

Deuteronomy:

"If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die."

"They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)"

"Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)"

"If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)"


As a Christian, Teribus, you are required to kill everyone who doesn't worship the God of the Bible. From the way you talk, it looks like you've been doing your best to fulfill this requirement, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 01:08 PM

Provide a source for that copy/paste, Teribus.

And yes, the Bible does say to kill the infidels - "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live".

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: Royston
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:15 PM

Teribus,

You ask whether there is a passage in The Bible that approves of killing non-believers. You then quote a section of text in such a way as to claim that Muslims receive such direction from the Qur'an.

But your text is not from the Qur'an

Where is it from?

Show us proof of your claims about the Qur'an.

Here are some proofs from The Bible for you

Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests

    Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Death to Followers of Other Religions

    Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

Kill Nonbelievers

    They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God

    Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

Kill Followers of Other Religions.

    1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

Infidels and Gays Should Die

    So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)

------------------------------------

Looking a bit of a fool now aren't you, Teribus?

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 11:10 AM

Merely observing Sugarfoot that the categoric statement that torture does not work is wrong.

Now in the instance I gave "Operation Awkward"

If I have somebody who may or may not have mined my ship and I have to find out if he has or not. I am faced with risking the lives of my shipmates and messmates against infringing the human rights of the attack swimmer we have caught, then I am afraid there is no question at all that them thar human rights is going to be infringed. And the one thing he will know with absolute certainty is that he will be going down with the ship if that mine blows.

Let's face it, we can hardly complain about the treatment metered out to allied soldiers in the theatre when the gloves are off can we? No point in having a moral stance if the enemies is making life difficult for you is there?

No point at all in complaining, we have absolutley no control over what our enemies will do. My son who has now done a number of tours out in Afghanistan has always been told do not expect to survive capture, and numerous grisley videos exist to support that assumption. Should this fate befall him or any of his colleagues the torture and mistreatment will have been carried out for amusement, for entertainment and for propaganda. There would be no attempt to question for intelligence gathering or to obtain any information.

How are the Taliban that have been taken prisoner that my son has had personal experience of? They are bound and hooded, identified, photographed, given a meal, medically examined, and more often than not depending on transport they are turned loose. They will be picked up again in a couple of weeks or months and this happens regularly, my son and his mates refer to them as "frequent flyers", they do not fight very hard, they have no information to give and nine times out of ten the only reason they were with the Taliban at all was because their families were threatened if they did not turn out to fight.

Ah so all the worlds ills are down to capitalism are they Sugarfoot, funny that in country's that embraced it you find the best standard of living and quality of life. And I don't see us imposing anything on anybody, globalisation is a fact of life get used to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 10:40 AM

Well let me CarolC

Anywhere in the Bible that instructs me to go out and kill anybody because they are not Christians?? No not even an hint of it

It needs to be understood in this context that at the end of the mission of Muhammad when God, in his absolute Knowledge, knew that those who were rejecting faith were not rejecting because they had any confusion with regards to it, rather they were rejecting out of mere arrogance and pride, He commanded Muslims to slay down those 'infidels' from amongst the polytheists. The Jews and Christians, on the other hand, because they belonged to monotheistic faith, were to be fought against until they became politically subservient to Muslims. This was done after providing both the idolaters and the people of the Book (Jews and Christians) sufficient time to understand whether Muhammad was a real messenger of God and the message he brought forward was actually the message from God.

So as one of the people of the book I can be fought against (?? - combatted? killed??) until I am politically subservient to Muslims (any particular one or just all of them?)

Bollocks, if any body wants to fight me on the instruction of their mullah, immam or ayatollah because of what they interpret as being written in their book about their imaginary friend then they had best come loaded for bear.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:00 AM

Teribus, in this sentence, you are smearing all of Islam, not just Islamic extremists, and it was this that I was responding to. Nice attempt to weasel your way out of what you said, though...

The only repeat ONLY religion that calls for my death as an non-believer is the Muslim faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: Stu
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 05:05 AM

"past experience shows that that is not necessarily correct torture has worked in the past."

Good point T. The Gestapo was able to obtain information by torturing French terrorists in WWII after all, and the South African police routinely tortured ANC terrorists in the 1970's, and enemy combatants were fair game for the Japanese in WWII too - to the with the GC.

Let's face it, we can hardly complain about the treatment metered out to allied soldiers in the theatre when the gloves are off can we? No point in having a moral stance if the enemies is making life difficult for you is there? Best abandon it and get stuck in and sod the consequences.

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

"Seek to impose not only their religion, but their particular version and systems of belief associated with that religion on the rest of the world"

Especially when it conflicts with us seeking to impose our particular version and system of economics associated with capitalism on the rest of the developing world.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:03 AM

MtheGM, Teribus is not making any distinctions between extremist Muslims and Islam generally - CarolC

Oh yes but I am CarolC:

The conflict will continue for generations Riginslinger for as long as a bunch of idiots (Al-Qaeda in the context of this thread).

1. Seek to impose not only their religion, but their particular version and systems of belief associated with that religion on the rest of the world;

2. Regard all others as infidels, kaffirs and non-believers and believe that they are perfectly at liberty and fully justified in killing everyone of them man, woman and child. - Teribus

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 03:54 PM

The popular school of thought and the one seemingly supported here opposes torture and asserts that torture is pointless because it doesn't work, but past experience shows that that is not necessarily correct torture has worked in the past. Even if we (UK or whoever) do not torture our Intelligence and Security Services cannot refuse information so obtained which could/would protect our own people. The terrorist chooses to kill and maim and can also choose not to suffer in captivity, while denying any choice to his or her victims.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 10:46 AM

MtheGM, Teribus is not making any distinctions between extremist Muslims and Islam generally. And there you go again making personal attacks in place of reasoned arguments in order to spread hate.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: bubblyrat
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 10:19 AM

It's a tricky one to call, isn't it ?? I tend to agree with the person who said that tortured people will agree to ANYTHING in order to stop the agony----I know I would ! But then,that rather defeats the object of the exercise,don't you think ?
    Of course,there are many (regrettably) rather inadequate people for whom there is a strong attraction in military service,and for whom a uniform and a gun represent an opportunity to indulge God -knows-what vile fantasies. Couple that with WEAK and INEFFECTIVE leadership, throw in some lobsters,t-bone steaks ,and a highly permissive attitude towards marijuana,etc, ( I mention no specific theatres of war, but.....) and you have the perfect breeding ground for all kinds of inhumane & uncivilised behaviour, sadly. As the world has seen all too often in the last 100 years or so.
                   No offence ,Teribus,but I think you meant "Clewed up" , as opposed to "Clued up" ,didn't you ?? Totally different meanings !

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 10:14 AM

Torture is listening to Keith Olbermann!

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: Royston
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 05:09 AM

Teribus, you need to understand what the tiny minority of crack-pot murderers are actually trying to achieve. You don't have to agree, just comprehend what their fight is about.

The 'Islamic Caliphate' is not some plan for worldwide domination (even if one or two choose to see it that way). The Caliphate, as a concept, is one government for "Muslim Lands". Where Islamic states combine to remove their national borders and operate as one authority. Even the most ardent fanatics are quite happy to let those they regard as "infidels", rot in their own lands.

Now, the last Islamic caliphate was widely though responsible for an European renaissance in art, science, culture, architecture and good governance. It was certainly Muslims that kept European civilisation going during the Christian-led post-Rome dark ages. I'm not saying any medieval system is "good" or "right", but it's pretty silly to say that the last Caliphate was all bad. Go to Cordoba in Southern Spain and get a feel for what it must have been like.

When a lot of Muslims look at how we caused, and continue to support, the Israel-Palestine problem, created and propped up with weapons (including chemical WMD's) the likes of Saddam Hussein, created and armed and supported the Sordid Arabian royal family, the Shah of Iran, left Afghanistan to the Taleban (post-USSR), propped up and supported endless regime after regime of corrupt bastards and tinpot dictators in Pakistan, is it any wonder that Muslims are - to put it mildly - feeling a little aggrieved?

Then after creating a pressure-cooker of pent-up chaos with Saddam as an Anglo-American-German "lid". We just went in - for no good reason - and blew away all the controls of state, producing the chaos that was inevitable and widely predicted. Why? Because we just didn't really care that much about the inevitable victims - ordinary Iraqis. What other explanation is there?

What troubles me most, and enrages some to the point of strapping on bombs - is the way that we have a sliding scale of the value and importance of life.

So, 50 people get murdered on the London transport system in 2005 and we spend 10's of millions of pounds on soul-searching, inquiries, accusation and blame, news and media coverage, monuments, memorial services etc etc etc. When at least as many innocent people in Iraq were being slaughetered weekly or daily in the chaos that we wrought there. Their lives passed as a footnote on the evening news or at bottom column 5 of page 37 of the newspaper.

One life murdered is one too many and the loss of any innocent life should be shocking to us - so dont' glibly come back and accuse me of saying or thinking that anyone "deserved" what they got. What I'm saying and thinking is that we need to do is to look at ourselves (as nations or groups) and try to see us as others might do. It's not always a pretty sight.

I can't tolerate the concept of "keeping score" when it comes to murder, but if some people in "the west" are asking of these terrorists, "why, how, can they do this to us, what drives them?" just stop and think how many of them we have killed either directly or by way of the proxies that we installed to do it for us?

If you ever wonder why people are driven to suicide attacks, try to work it out. What would you be prepared to die for? How bad would things have to be for you to decide that there was nothing to lose? Is there no principle or value or child or loved-one that you wouldn't give your life for? European Resistance fighters 39-45 went on suicide attacks, as did soldiers: we rightly revere their sacrifices. Maybe we have pushed rather a lot of people in various parts of the world to that breaking point?

So, Teribus, when people say, in effect, of Muslims: to hell with 'em there all the same, we have to kill 'em all. Or appear to imply that any amount of "collateral damage" is fine so long as it's them and not us: don't you think that those people sound a lot like the so-called enemy?

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:14 AM

Teribus - a word of advice. Don't try to argue with CarolC ~ her only talent is to contrive to combine the narrowest of credulity (like believing ~ or purporting to believe ~ that the Koran has one single unambiguous meaning thruout which all Muslims understand completely) with disingenuous constant groundshifting evasiveness of the main point. You might as well try to stop a bandersnatch; or spend a constructive hour or two bashing your head against a brick wall.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 01:40 AM

Also, there is no ambiguity whatever about the Bible being a foundational document of Islam. It absolutely is. And all of the people in the Bible who are revered by Christians and Jews are also revered by Musilms. Islam is seen by Muslims as being an outgrowth of Judaism and Christianity. Islam is built on the foundations of Judaism and Christianity, and this is how Muslims see it. According to Islam, the Prophet took the holy books of the Jews and the Christians, and added to them further communication from God (Allah is nothing more than the Arabic word for "God"). Trying to separate the Bible from Islamic belief would be like cutting off your legs and then trying to stand up.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 01:31 AM

The Quran is very clear that the "brothers and sisters of the Book" are to be treated with respect and kindness.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 01:17 AM

Oh CarolC the Quran is the most ambiguous Book ever written and what it says depends on how the person reading it wants to interpret it.

Very nice to know that Christians, Jews and Pagans have nothing to worry about, nothing to worry about at all if they convert to Islam, or if they pay their tax to their world wide Islamic Caliphate (Pssst Royston, old son the establishment of that last bit in Italics IS their long term goal).

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 01:11 AM

Donuel, Iraq and Afghanistan have proved to be nothing like the "Recruiting Sergeants" for Al-Qaeda that most here claim and the reason for that is simple. In both places the insurgency found that the Pro-Government Forces fought back quite successfully when attacked so the insurgents resorted to terrorising civilians and killing them in large numbers. Quite naturally it then became relatively easy for the PGF to demonstrate that they were protectors and the populations turned to them. Ayman al-Zawahiri, Al-Qaeda's second in command criticised Zarqawi actions in Iraq and blamed him for Al-Qaeda-in-Iraq's failure there. Al-Qaeda's poll ratings in the "Muslim World" started to plummet when it was seen that all Al-Qaeda was doing was killing fellow Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 01:02 AM

Jews and Christians are not considered to be "infidels" by Muslims. They are considered (and this is in the Quran), to be Muslims' "brothers and sisters of the Book" (Bible), and they are commanded by their Prophet to treat their brothers and sisters of the book with respect and kindness. The people who are referred to in the Quran as "infidels" are Pagans. The Bible is considered to be a foundational document of the religion of Islam. So the Christians and Jews have nothing to worry about (and I suspect that most Pagans aren't particularly worried, either). People who say otherwise are promoting a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 07:24 PM

Tereibus you will be happy to learn that Ossama Bin Ladens approval ratings are down compared to 2 years ago. They are down by about the same margin that Sarah Palin's approval ratings have dropped.
Obama's approval ratings are also down but only 1/3 as much as Palin and bin Laden.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 07:20 PM

Psychological studies and experiments have shown that about 50% of any population will participate in administering torture when told to do so by authority figures.

That means there is a 50-50 likelyhood that you are willing and capable of torture under the right circumstances even if you think differently at this moment.

If you have noticed that there is a lot of cruel people out there you can see why. There is about 10& who always take an evil delight in torturing but the other 40% feel they are just following orders, but after awhile even more of that 40% begin to enjoy their authority to inflict cruelty pain and even death.

Politicians that preach that there are two Americas or that the JEWS are to blame for Germany's economic woes or that the HUTU's are to be executed or that the Sunnis are evil and the Shiites good and vice versa, are all using the same proven basic human failings to do their neighbor harm.

By year 5 of the George Bush years we came damn close to a regieme that supported harm and violence against the "less patriotic" Americans.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 06:31 PM

Royston if Al-Qaeda's immediate wishes are as you suggest what do you think their long term aims are? Or are you too bashful to put those down in print?

If you are in any doubt as to what they are look them up as written and declared in 1998 by their great leader Osama bin Laden.

Perhaps you could also explain exactly how the appeal to all muslims to kill US citizens, men, women and children everywhere and anywhere in the world promotes the appeal to, as you say:

fuck off out of the Middle East, stop arming lunatic despotic religious cranks to subjugate their people (the house of Saud) and leave us alone.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 06:21 PM

Burke, no better name for someone who spouts the absolute complete and utter crap that pours forth from your mouth.

The bloody crusades were over 800 years ago the world has moved on apace since then please do try and catch up your fucking prat. Do you honestly expect me or anyone else to creep round this world wearing sackcloth and ashes in penitence for something that happened 800 years ago? If you are looking for me to do so you can Fuck Off -Got the message.

No Hindu has ever threatened me or mine or challenged my right to believe in whatever faith I may hold dear.

Same thing can be said for Buddhist (that better, let me refer Bobert to you when he needs his spelling corrected); Shikhs; or any other religious sect under the sun.

The only repeat ONLY religion that calls for my death as an non-believer is the Muslim faith. Now please, Great Burke (and I mean that sincerely because I do believe that you are indeed a great Burke) corrector of spellings tell me I am wrong. Tell me that I can import bibles into Saudi Arabia, tell me that I can carry out Christian missionary work there amongst the poor. Tell me that I can build in that fair land a Christian House of prayer. If you do you would be lying from your back teeth, attempt any of that old son and you would be strung up. Likewise tell me it was not a collection of misbegotten sons of bitches, and followers of the Muslim faith, who hijacked four aircraft on the 11th September 2001 and crashed them into buildings killing nearly 3000 people.

Why is that the only criterion, apart from the fact that you are a barbarian turd?

Just one question for you Burke old son:

Do people ever comment on the fact of what a shame it was that your father never settled for the blow-job your mother offered him the night you were conceived?

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: Royston
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 06:20 PM

Teribus:

"The conflict will continue for generations Riginslinger for as long as a bunch of idiots.

1. Seek to impose not only their religion, but their particular version and systems of belief associated with that religion on the rest of the world;

2. Regard all others as infidels, kaffirs and non-believers and believe that they are perfectly at liberty and fully justified in killing everyone of them man, woman and child.

Swap "Religion" for "Economic Imperialism", and you could be talking about the Anglo-America neo-con pact.

Al Qaeda's immediate wishes are pretty simple - fuck off out of the Middle East, stop arming lunatic despotic religious cranks to subjugate their people (the house of Saud) and leave us alone.

The war in Afghanistan / Pakistan is the real deal for freedom and the safety of ordinary, innocent people. The Taliban must be stopped. But to replace them with Karzai - WTF is that about? And just look at how we have failed our troops there.

Iraq / Iran / Sordid Arabia - oil and gas. There's nothing else to it. And the slaughter that we have caused in Iraq is beyond shameful. Compared to that carnage, 9/11 and 7/7 barely register.

Civilised world? Really?

I find it hard at times to differentiate the two sides on this terror war - very apt name for it.

In answer to the OP, some things are black and white and must be so. If all this fighting is for a world where the rights of the individual are sacred, then there can never be a reason for breaching the rights of any individual. It really is as simple as that. No ifs, no buts. No negotiations.

The alternative is that you decide rights are limited, the limits are arbitrary and can be set at the whim of more powerful individuals who only need justify their acts to themselves.

And then we are the same as the people we claim to be opposed to.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: Paco O'Barmy
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 03:26 PM

Could we now just pack this chap up with some sandwiches, and a Thermos flask of weak lemon drink, and put him on a plane back to Ethiopa where he belongs? Or do English solicitors wish to rung another few hundred thousand pounds out of our legal aid system on his behalf?

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: Paul Burke
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 03:04 PM

Bollocks mate, you tell me where and when Christians

Rge crusades

Hindus

Try Indian partition

Shikhs

Golden Temple

Bhuddists (your spelling, ignorant shite)

Indonesia 1960s- gamelans playing while they burned communists alive

or whatever other religion on this earth hijacked and crashed aeroplanes into buildings.

Why is that the only criterion, apart from the fact that you are a barbarian turd?

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 02:22 PM

It's a bugger innit, trying to find a way to make them sound worse than the Crusades, the Spanish inquisition, the conquistadores, and the Phelps family?

trying to find a way to make them sound worse than

What on earth are you talking about??

Are we ever likely to embark on a "Crusade" of over 800 years ago. No of course we are not so what is the relevance? None at all. Oh by the way in the current stramash it was your good friend OBL or his second-in-command who first mentioned the word "Crusade" in the mid 1990's.

The Spanish Inquisition?? Well you have moved forwards about 500 years in time but equally as irrelevant and you bloody well know it. Were Al-Qaeda and Wahabbist Islam were to behave as introvertedly as the Spanish Inquisition the world would be in a damn sight better shape than it is today. When you come out with crap like this at times I wonder if you really know what you are talking about.

The Conquistadores?? the English learned their lessons on how not to behave from the Conquistadores over 400 years ago. Good God Don T have you ever read, or studied ANY HISTORY????

So I am:

ignoring the fact that a small minority of extremists are the problem,.......ON BOTH SIDES!

Bollocks mate, you tell me where and when Christians, Hindus, Shikhs, Bhuddists or whatever other religion on this earth hijacked and crashed aeroplanes into buildings.

You tell me which religions on this earth declare that anyone who does not follow their faith can be slaughtered.

You state that in your opinion that I am:

"a very sick individual

You are perfectly entitled to your opinion

You on the other hand are a complete and utter Fucking Idiot and when terror does come knocking at your door and you personally have felt the pain and loss occaisioned by their intolerance. Whatever you do DON T please do not broadcast on any forum that I might read your pain and anguish, because if you do I will laugh in your face and tell you in no uncertain terms that you have reaped what you have sown by ignoring every warning that you and yours were given. Bloody well live with it and be thankful.

Now tell me what I have written and what you have quoted is not true:

"1. Seek to impose not only their religion, but their particular version and systems of belief associated with that religion on the rest of the world;

2. Regard all others as infidels, kaffirs and non-believers and believe that they are perfectly at liberty and fully justified in killing everyone of them man, woman and child."

Come on Don T tell where they have written or decreed that what I have written above is NOT THEIR STATED AIM.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 10:21 AM

""1. Seek to impose not only their religion, but their particular version and systems of belief associated with that religion on the rest of the world;

2. Regard all others as infidels, kaffirs and non-believers and believe that they are perfectly at liberty and fully justified in killing everyone of them man, woman and child.

Yeah, T.

It's a bugger innit, trying to find a way to make them sound worse than the Crusades, the Spanish inquisition, the conquistadores, and the Phelps family?

So you fall back on the good old Hitlerian ploy of tarring all of them with the fundamentalist brush, and ignoring the fact that a small minority of extremists are the problem,.......ON BOTH SIDES!

You are a very sick individual.

Don T

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 10:15 AM

The conflict will continue for generations Riginslinger for as long as a bunch of idiots.

1. Seek to impose not only their religion, but their particular version and systems of belief associated with that religion on the rest of the world;

2. Regard all others as infidels, kaffirs and non-believers and believe that they are perfectly at liberty and fully justified in killing everyone of them man, woman and child.

Seems odd that those rushing to defend these clowns gather together talking on what is supposed to be a music site - That would go to the wall for a start wouldn't it if the Taliban had their say.

So far as can be seen both sides have used torture and one side has a very good track record of ritualistic slaughter of those who fall into its hands. But all of that Riginslinger is just a side show and a complete irrelevance.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 10:14 AM

War does not determine who is right!

It merely determines who is left!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 09:44 AM

Actually, the use of torture will ensure that the conflict will continue--for generations. It's the best thing going for Blackwater and the military-industrial-complex.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 11:03 AM

Rather think that we need them more than they need us Right Stuff

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 10:33 AM

Sadly for the US spooks, they need British intelligence, so Teribus may rest assured that the relationship is completely unaffected, notwithstanding a little bit of huffing and puffing here and there.

Knowing that it takes only a handful of words from me to provoke poor T into an interminable ramble that keeps him out of trouble for an hour or two conveys a great sense of power. I must be careful not to abuse it.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 10:00 AM

As far as torture is concerned, CarolC, it would be hard to deny now that Westminster turns out to be guilty, at least by association. - Peter K ("the right sort" Fionn)

With what has been reported and trotted out by both sides in this affair so far I would say that it has all but become impossible for Binyam Mohamed to prove his case against MI5.

BM left UK (on false papers??) in June 2001 he went to Pakistan and then went to Afghanistan where he went to the Al-Qaeda, Al-Farouq camp where he was trained in the use of small arms, explosives, use of terrain, simple coding and falsifying of documents.

On 10th April 2002 he was arrested in Karachi Airport attempting to leave the country on a false Passport (He obviously had "dipped" the falsifying of documents part of his Al-Qaeda finishing school). Considering the events happening in that neck of the woods around this time, old Binyam could not be described as being the sharpest knife in the drawer. Considering where he had been and what he had been doing, his preferred route home travelling on the papers he had appears to have been as sensible as and somewhat akin to somebody sticking their head in a lions mouth and kicking it in the bollocks.

Held by the ISI he told told them that he had been trained to go and fight in Chechnya and had no intention of attacking Americans. Exactly how he thought that that would get him off the hook I do not have the foggiest notion.

He is held in Karachi from April to July being interrogated (we have no idea of the frequency of the interviews) and at some time in those three months he is interviewed by an official from either MI5 or MI6 (although I think it has now been established it was MI5)

There was only that one single interview and until he landed back in the UK last year to leap onboard the gravy train that is NULiebour-PC-wracked Britain nobody from MI5 saw Binyam Mohamed again.

Back to our tale as told by the ACLU. Binyam is now flown out of Karachi to Morocco where he is held for 18 months. It was in Morocco that he details graphically for the benefit of public opinion the torture undergone during his stay.

18 months on from July 2002 brings us to January 2004 when Binyam Mohamed is flown to Bagram Air Base Afghanistan. Where according to his account to ACLU interrogations took place on almost a daily basis. As part of the interrogation process he was shown pictures of Afghanis and Pakistanis and was interrogated about the story behind each picture. Although Mohamed knew none of the persons pictured, he would invent stories about them so as to avoid further torture. - Absolutely the very last thing that he should have done, definitely the very worst thing could have done.

His stay in Afghanistan lasted until September 2004 when he was flown to Guantanamo.

Exactly how this non-British Subject and non-British Passport Holder (his forged one doesn't count) ended up back in the UK could only be explained by either Cherie Blair, High Court Judge, or some gormless NULiebour politician, he certainly had no rightful claim to return, being after all an Ethiopian citizen, but none-the-less he clues up on our shores in 2009 and starts this circus.

The charge against MI5 is that they colluded in his torture:

Definition: To collude - to agree or co-operate secretly for a fraudulent or otherwise illegal purpose.

Did MI5 agree to Binyam Mohamed's torture? Were they ever told about it? More importantly did they know of any torture prior to that single interview? Binyam Mohamed and his legal team of course have to prove that they did know it for fact, and that will be hard for them to do. MI5 on the other hand being the defendant do not have to prove anything.

Did MI5 co-operate in the torture of Binyam Mohamed? Hardly the only time they ever saw him was during the course of one single interview in Karachi weeks before he was spirited off to Morocco and torture (according to what Binyam Mohamed told the ACLU).

As Binyam Mohamed was an Ethiopian travelling on a forged British passport were the British Authorities in Morocco, the FCO and MI5 kept informed by the US, or the Moroccans about the Binyam Mohamed?? I do not think so.

Questions put to Binyam concerning his time in the UK while he was in Morocco he claims could only have come from MI5, but no-one from MI5 interrogated him in Morocco the questions put to him came from the US who had received them in written form from MI5, so exactly how on earth could MI5 know how Binyam Mohamed was being treated let alone have colluded with his interrogators. The whole thing is a complete and utter nonsense, apart from the aspect of it seriously damaging the sharing of intelligence between the USA and the UK in the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 09:44 AM

Truth drugs are apparently illegal too and seen as a torture technique


I found the above: it's a no no though I cannot find why it is seen as torture

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 09:05 AM

I suspect that many, while feeling it is morally and ethically rerehensible to torture anything, have a deep down feeling that somehow they may show a little lenience if someone was holding a child who may die. I do not like confessing I am guilty of such thoughts BUT I would not go through with them nor allow them. It's just that basic instinct I suspect to help try save the child. The reason I could not and cannot accept it is that if I/we do, just once, then we subscribe to the whole idea of torture for truth. We could have someone who knows when a bomb is going off so we have to save lots of people. So we torture to get the truth again. We simply cannot.

The idea expressed that "one the line is crossed there is no line" is quite correct and chillingly so.

So I will take no moral high ground here and say I an against torture without at least admitting that, in some scenarios, I have thought it *may* be okay. Of course, morally and ethically I know we should not and that is how it has to be no matter how much the other side would do it. We are trying to show our way as right and proper. Questions as above touch a darker side to me sadly.

All that said....

what of so called-truth drugs? Any harm there?

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 08:16 PM

The problem isn't that war crimes by people on the losing side are treated as crimes, it's that crimes carried out by the winning side are not.

Wars of aggression are criminal whether you win them or lose them.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 06:37 PM

That Teribus chose the military is just one more example of how prone the armed services are to attracting "the wrong sort" - ie the sort who lack the brainpower to do anything else and like hurting people.

The link provided by Paul Burke recounted British atrocities carried out within a year of the UK and its WW2 Allies executing among others a decent soldier, General Jodl, following a travesty of a trial at Nuremberg. More proof, were it needed, that victors' justice is at best rank hypocrisy, and that war-crime courts and tribunals invariably stand on shaky ethical foundations. (The more so when the strongest nation on earth places itself above them.) As Solzhenitsyn said (possibly quoting someone else?) "the line between good and evil passes through every man's heart."

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 06:57 PM

You can watch it in increments by clicking on the video frames below the main viewing screen. You don't have to watch it all at once.

It examines the track record of the US in the context of its wars and its global ambitions. It covers a lot of material, which is why it's so long.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 06:28 PM

Hey, CarolC! That's an hour-and-a-half video. Before I commit to watching it, can you tell me what it's about? Or point me to a summary?

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 05:00 PM

So if we are imagining scenarios, how about the one where you bring in the captives child and you torture her, or stick a gun to her head, as a way of getting information from the father? That one OK?

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: Art Thieme
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 02:31 PM

Even Al Capone was thought to be deserving of his legal rights and his day in court before he was put away in prison. But now, assassination without any due process is the new norm for those who are haphazardly designated as enemies in this civilized world.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture in a civilised world
From: Paul Burke
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 01:44 PM

Just sod off you bloody barbarian. Your mind is trashed.

Rapaire: Prisoners tortured by the British.