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English Tradition, part two
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: JohnB Date: 04 Jul 00 - 07:35 PM Thanks for posting the Giant location Malcolm. They are somewhat as I imagined, I saw a giant Punch and Judy at the Milton Ren Festival a couple of years ago. Always wanted to make a couple myself since then. JohnB |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: Liz the Squeak Date: 04 Jul 00 - 06:55 PM Great picture of the giants, where did you find it? I searched for ages to get one like that! That is Tim standing up, he dances with Sheffield City Morris, and Alec sitting down, no longer dances 'due to old age and decreptitude'..... both bloody nice blokes..... See also the 'is everybody here from Sheffield' thread.. sorry no blue clicky transfer things. LTS |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: The Shambles Date: 04 Jul 00 - 09:59 AM And now some news just in from our roving reporter, who is currently scouring the country in search of the Living English Tradition.
For this part of my exhaustive research, I spent Sunday at Christchurch Festival at an informal gathering, sitting under a tree, playing my bouzouki and banjo in the sun outside a pub. There was a collection fine folk playing guitars, banjos, mandolins, accordions, fiddles, flutes, harmonicas and whistles. In roughly that order of abundance.
It would be fair to say that the overall influence was American. The skiffle influence was most apparent with songs like; Midnight Special, Jesse James and Worried Man. There were Carter family tunes also. The other songs were mostly Irish. Star of County Down and Leaving of Liverpool type things. The tunes were also mainly Irish session standards too. It was all very enjoyable.
There was a request for Trumpet Hornpipe (better known as the tune to the Captain Pugwash TV show), which as far as I am aware is an English tune? This was greeted with a strange ritual of 'knowing looks' and 'eyeball rolling', among those playing. Those listening however liked it very much. Can anyone explain this reaction? |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 04 Jul 00 - 04:31 AM There is a picture of the Sheffield Giants here. I'm inclined to describe Morris as "ceremonial" dance, which isn't quite so loaded a term as "ritual", but still makes a useful distinction between it -as a form of dance traditionally associated with particular times of the year and frequently linked with other calendar customs- social dancing and purely "performance" dancing (clog, for example). Malcolm |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: IanC Date: 04 Jul 00 - 04:28 AM With reference to "The Ladies Dance at Whitsun", there doesn't need to be any particular controversy over clothes. White clothing was common at Whitsun and people often dressed in their best to do "country dancing". Actually, I thought that the tenor of the song indicated that the women were dancing originally to replace the men who were away/lost at war. Cheers!IanC |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 Jul 00 - 09:49 PM "It's a dirty job, but someone has to do it." |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: GUEST,JohnB Date: 03 Jul 00 - 08:53 PM I remeber years back seeing the Manchester(I think) Morris MEN all with hairy faces dancing Northwest Garland dances with Clogs AND making it look MANLY. Do some people still not realize that without the ritual of morris dancers getting up to dance at dawn on May 1st there would be no summer. I wasn't in Sheffield this weekend, too far. Are there pictures posted anywhere of the Giants ?? I'm intrigued. JohnB |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird) Date: 03 Jul 00 - 08:35 PM In some places it might be called part of the "ritual" to have a performance of Tchaikovsky's Nutcracker at Christmastime. But every performance of the Nutcracker doesn't become "ritual" thereby, nor does all ballet become a "ritual dance" genre. T. |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: Liz the Squeak Date: 03 Jul 00 - 07:23 PM Morris wasn't the only dance done at Whitsun - in Abbotsbury, Dorset, in my grandmothers' time, there were what Thomas Hardy called 'Club' dances or walks, usually on feast days (Whitsun, Rogation, Easter, that sort of thing, when you could guarantee most of the day off) which was basically a ritual procession round the village to mark the boundaries, and a dance was held in the evening. It started as all women, because the men were all in the fields working. They came along later, so some ritual dances were just for women. I was told that the men do their dances "t'other side of hill", my grandmother was never enlightened as to what they did 't'other side of hill' so she wasn't able to tell me. This sort of stretched out into Abbotsbury Garland day, where they processed a garland of flowers around the village and then flung it into the sea for a good catch in the year to come. This was followed by the same ritual type dancing until the war years, when it started to wane. LTS |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: Snuffy Date: 03 Jul 00 - 07:08 PM In many villages the Morris was only performed once a year, typically at Whitsun. Apparently, quite a few dancers selected didn't particularly want to do it, but it was something that had to be done for the sake of the whole village. If the dance was not done at the right time, a great disater would befall the community (so they believed). Many men did it from a sense of obligation rather than for pleasure. Wassail! V |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: GUEST,Okiemockbird Date: 03 Jul 00 - 02:47 PM Bald Eagle: my point is that that this seems to be a tendentious use of the word "ritual". We don't ordinarily think of ballet as a "ritual" dance form, so why should we think of morris this way ? T. |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 Jul 00 - 01:30 PM "In a dress of white linen and ribbons of green ...." - I take that to mean Garland-dancing rather than Morris Dancing as such.
That's another type of ritual English dance in which all the participants carry half-hoops wrapped in ribbons and flowers and that. All women - though there never seems to have been any big issue made about whether there should be Mixed Garland-dancing for some reason.
I have seen a Garland-dance team who were short a member for a dance, so they roped in a hairy-face Morris Dancer. A sight to remember. |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: MikeofNorthumbria Date: 03 Jul 00 - 01:04 PM Since this thread has drifted to the perpetually controversial topic of Gender and Morris Dancing, I'll take the opportunity to throw in a few more provocative observations. 1) Men only teams. I've seen a great many of these, ranging in quality from astonishingly good to appallingly inept. But I find that even the inept teams - provided they don't take themselves seriously, and don't go on too long - can be quite amusing. 2) Women only teams. I've seen a fair few, and the best of them are every bit as good as the best men's sides. However, I don't find the less-good female teams as amusing as the less-good all male sides. Perhaps that's my own fault ... or perhaps it's because the less-good all-female sides are not deliberately playing for laughs? (Aside: would it be sexist to say that men behaving like idiots can sometimes be funny, but women behaving like idiots are usually embarassing to watch?) 3) Mixed teams. I've seen a few, some of who are well on the way to being very good indeed. But my impression is that even the best of them are still struggling to evolve a distinctive style of their own. What I mean by that is, a style that doesn't require female members of the team to put on an over-hearty pseudo-macho manner, or reqmale members of the team to restrain their natural aggression and vulgarity because they are dancing with ladies. |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: Ringer Date: 03 Jul 00 - 12:50 PM Okiemockbird: The Morris is not just public entertainment. It's called ritual to distinguish it from social dancing, where couples get to touch each other. When I first took up the Morris, my chum Andy Reed used to say he did it because it made him feel like a man. Now thats ritual dancing... |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: Liz the Squeak Date: 03 Jul 00 - 12:28 PM Wild Hunt are planning a weekend in Chatham, Kent in September - if anyone wants to see them (and incidentally, a giant or two) I'll be happy to post details as soon as I know them. They may also be performing at the Halloween Festival, weekend of 17/18 October, in London, again, more details when I can get them. LTS |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: Liz the Squeak Date: 03 Jul 00 - 12:21 PM Yes, we got a melodeon and a video stolen from there later in the evening. Sheffield police had no idea what a melodeon was - ever try explaining to a non musician what a melodeon is? I was one of the two in a black tatter cape with long blonde hair, we were dancing the giants not long before the Irish set came on in the tent. The Irish dancers were rather upstaged by the Chinese lion dance going on outside..... Was the world and their partners in Sheffield this weekend?? LTS |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: Peg Date: 03 Jul 00 - 12:18 PM Just saw a very pagan Morris troupe perform at the Rollrights, called The Wild Hunt Morris. They performed an amazing and intense ritualized dance piece for summer solstice called The Cycle of the Green Man, I believe...anyone else ever seen them? No white shoes and red garters for them; these blokes and gals are mostly in black with red and green ribbons, and incredibly evocative masks... really great stuff, this is what Morris should be!! peg |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: GUEST,JulieF Date: 03 Jul 00 - 12:11 PM Were you on Devonshire Green? I would have been there with the Irish Dancers but Cat had to go to her Orchestra practice for the Italian Tour rather than dance and Tim was helping run a pantomine. We were there at the Student Games events. Cat was six at the time and my favourite memory is taking two hours to pass the security at the Games Village. The Kids danced and this 6ft Five Korean Basketball player joined in with them. Sorry have to go now - Hometime. Julie |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: Liz the Squeak Date: 03 Jul 00 - 12:01 PM Julie - where were you this weekend? Did you go to Sheffield at all? I was there with the two Sheffield City giants, War and Peace and one of our own, the Morrigan from London! I was also at the Student Games in '91 - the giants were the 2 Catalan national giants 'Commerce & Industry' and 'Art & Culture'. The other two were Nathandriel from Huddersfield and Bran Duir from London. I was with the London giant, the little green one. The giant morris side will probably appear at Hastings next year, unless someone wants to organise an expenses paid trip to somewhere before next May! We are more than happy to dispence advice and instruction if anyone wants to find out more about making or seeing giants.... next confirmed sighting of the Morrigan will be near Halloween, weekend of 17th October, in London. LTS |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: GUEST,T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird) Date: 03 Jul 00 - 10:49 AM Morris dance was never a "ritual" unless "ritual" is defined broadly to include things like (in the U.S.) 4th of July parades. It was, and is, a public entertainment. T. |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: GUEST,JohnB Date: 03 Jul 00 - 10:19 AM Well Snuffy, I have always taken it to mean the Morris. "In a drees of white linen and ribbons of green ...." The "gear" would not be required for country dance. JohnB |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: GUEST,JulieF Date: 03 Jul 00 - 10:18 AM Now I would go quite as distance to see a Giant Morris side. I've only see 4 so far. There was the two that came for the World Student Games in '91. They came with two little ones as attendants. And there were two that were given to Sheffield in '92 which we see around alot at various events. I did hear about the festivals in Spain as I used to work for one of the morris team at the point they were learning Catalan. Julie |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: GUEST,JohnB Date: 03 Jul 00 - 10:14 AM Well Liz the noble art of "Smudgeing" entails taking your male or female dancers face with the colours of your particular side painted upon it. I guess it wirks best with the wax type paints. You then proceed to transfer some of the colour to a member of the audience, I guess that you can choose your own preffered sex. You can definitely choose the area of their anatomy that you wish to "Smudge". I think that just about covers it. JohnB |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: Liz the Squeak Date: 03 Jul 00 - 09:58 AM They'd better not try taunting OUR giants, that's all I can say! Of my little dancing friends: the SO dances with both sword and morris, Rog dances with 3 teams, Tim dances with a morris team and giants as well and even I myself have jingled with 2 sides and at least 10 giants (662 if you count the really big meeting in Spain in 1992.....) There is a move afoot to have a giant morris dance group:- minimum height requirement 8 ft. Two have already performed, a third is waiting to be built - anyone want to add some more?? LTS |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: Snuffy Date: 03 Jul 00 - 09:54 AM John B. I had never associated Dancing at Whitsun with the Morris. I had always imagined it meant that at the village dances, when other women danced with husbands/sweethearts, the "old maids" had to dance with each other, because their men never came back from the war. |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: Snuffy Date: 03 Jul 00 - 09:49 AM I think face-blacking was mainly done in the winter, and usually by mummers rather than dancers. (the Not-for-Jo morris of the Borders was traditionally done at mid-winter, I believe). Black was not the only colour used - in sheep-farming areas they often used raddle, so faces were red or blue. But for most people soot was easily available and free, and the fact that it was black was not important. The Cotswold Morris sides danced in Spring/Summer, and wore white, and didn't disguise themselves, as they didn't want to get soot all over their virginal costumes. Wassail! V |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: GUEST,JulieF Date: 03 Jul 00 - 09:46 AM I'ld definately be interested in the book Liz. People always say that you have a book in you somewhere - I always thought that mine was a dectective story about a Morris Dancing inspector. In fact I even wrote the first story when I took my A Level English a few years ago. All this about sexism in morris dancing - what about the fickleness. I mean you meet them in one team - waving hankies and banging sticks ( ok so I forget all the technical terms) , then you see them with someone else waving big swords around and then you see them taunting giants. Sometimes they even dance with more than one team at the same time. Its enough to make you take their beer away. Julie |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: Liz the Squeak Date: 03 Jul 00 - 09:45 AM Elucidate on the smudgeing, it sounds like fun...... LTS And I'm still not telling which three..... |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: GUEST,JohnB Date: 03 Jul 00 - 09:39 AM I started reading this thread Last Friday, just before leaving for the weekends "Morris Dancing" so this could go anywhere and will be exremely fractisized. All Male sides can and do look good because of the the extreme masculine effort that they put into the dance. If you have ever seen "Jack in the Green" dance with their "Short sticks" about 14" long and at least 4" in diameter, they also travel vast distances during their dances. They even managed to break one of these at the London Ale (Ontario, not England) So I guess that covers the robust masculine stuff. All female sides can and do look good and do great dances. To me a lot depends on the "Tradition" or the Style of Morris in question "Forest City" and two other sides whose names evade my scattered mind, one from california who dance in Pink and Black and one who attend the Toroto Ale from Michigan, are great examples of all womens sides. They seem to perform the "Hanky" dances with more grace and style than some all male sides. Mixed sides can also work well, there are many sides on this side of the Atlantic who dance the "Cotswold" styles with both sexes of dancers. There are also several "Border" sides who I have seen dance with mixtures, "Bassett Street Hounds", "Woad Works" and of course the finest border side in the Universe (no bias here folks) "ORANGE PEEL". There are probably people that will argue that "Border" is not even Morris Dancing anyhow! There are even a few "Childrens" sides around, you are never too young, or old in my case to learn. A lot of the side I have mentioned above even have Canadians and Americans dancing with them, what about that The "Tatter Coats" are exremely hot, mine is Black even, especially on 85+ deg days with no shade to dance in. The face Blackening seems to have taken a turn to colour, with side like "Woad Works" Blue Faces, "Not for Joe" Red and Yellow(I think that is the right name and colour)This side also has a tradition called "smudging" probably not too appreciated by the audiences of soot blacked dancers. I forget what elese I was going to say, lost my conection. Also lost many hours of sleep singing and dancing over the weekend. I would just like to refer non believers on the Mixed sex issue to the song "Dancing at Whitsun" I think it is on the site, it speaks for itself. I personally prefer to see anyone and everyone singing dancing and enjoying ALL of the traditional customs than to see them DIE! Keep on Dancing and Singing JohnB |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: Liz the Squeak Date: 03 Jul 00 - 09:30 AM Mick - my Experiences with Morris Dancers will be available as a one off single run printing, sold only in plain brown wrappers at an astronomical charge. Malcolm - read the book!!! I'm taking the fifth!!! However, it isn't true that you'll get pregnant if you wear a morris dancers hat - I've worn several and only had one baby - and that (amongst other things) was due to being painted green by the bogies at Hastings! LTS |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: bbelle Date: 02 Jul 00 - 10:41 PM Thank you for the explanation ... the joke is actually somewhat amusing ... now that I "get" it. I was having a hard time imagining anti-semitism because I know that Bill Sables plays for a Morris Dancing group and don't think that would appeal to him ... moonchild |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 02 Jul 00 - 10:32 PM Moonchild: It turns out that the reference to anti-semitism at the beginning of this thread was just a wind-up, leading to the joke (something like) Question: "Why are there no Jewish Morris Dancers?" Answer: "Because you have to be a complete prick to be a Morris Dancer." I've only ever heard the joke told by Morrispersons (or their families) in self-mockery, and completely missed the point on this occasion. The sexist business is an entirely different issue, and relates to the insistence of some Morris Dancers that it's a male-only fertility rite, and that it's therefore inappropriate for women to participate. Personally, I think that is just foolishness, with no historical evidence to support it: it's worth remembering, though, that the world is full of traditional practices that are restricted to one sex only. These restrictions must be respected when we are dealing with other peoples' cultures; when they are our own, I guess that we have the right to expect an attitude that corresponds to our current views of what is enlightened. I hope that makes some sort of sense. Malcolm |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: bbelle Date: 02 Jul 00 - 09:45 PM hmmmm! Sexism = Anti-semitism? Sorry, folks, but I don't get the joke. Is it the British humour or am I obtuse. Enlighten me, please ... moonchild |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 02 Jul 00 - 09:37 PM Thanks for the clarification, Snuffy! I, for one, swallowed the bait, and really should have spotted the link to the joke. Trouble is, it was perhaps just a little too close to some real issues relating to the Morris Revival that are still not fully resolved; particularly, here, in view of the frankly hostile (and ignorant) posts from an anonymous stirrer that turned up on the previous thread. "Drunken" Sailor Dan evidently fell for it too, though in a more unpleasant way. Oh well... Malcolm P.S. Mick: don't forget to put a semi-colon after the """, so that it works! |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: Mick Lowe Date: 02 Jul 00 - 08:05 PM First off apologies called for.. i.e. I got booted off whilst composing my last diatribe and since have lost what ever thread I may have been clinging to.. But having browsed through subsequent additions I am going to forget all you one liners and somewhat .. and was going to revert to some coarse analogy.. but I think this thread deserves better.. Instead I shall say this.. both Liz and Malcolm I should be more than interested to hear about all your experiences regarding Morris music/dancing and for that matter as this thread set up as "The English Tradition".. If you'd care to email me your thoughts/opinions on anything to do with "English Traditional Music and Soing".. then please do so at mick@prof.co.uk.. Though I should warn you one of these days I will get around to writing a book on the importance of "folk" music.. and yes I shall readily acknowledge my sources..... In the meantime we should all look to preserving our heritage through song and music.. no matter where we come from.. or whatever beliefs we hold... Mick |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: Snuffy Date: 02 Jul 00 - 07:43 PM THERE IS NO ANTI-SEMITISM IN MORRIS DANCING. Terry's post was just setting up the joke abou having to be a complete prick to be a morris dancer. But there is still sexism among a substantial minority of morrismen who think it's not right for women to perform traditional male ritual dances. As a morris dancer, this is not an opinion I personally subscribe to. Sailor Dan, you say you're Irish, but it sounds to me like you come from another planet. Get real!! Wassail! V |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 02 Jul 00 - 04:21 PM There's a lot of confusion over the etymology of "Morris" and the reason for the blackface disguise; opinions -and, for the most part, that's all they are- differ quite widely. I see little evidence that face-blackening originated as an "imitation" of Moorish skin-colour; it seems far more likely that it's just a simple form of ritual diguise; a person with pale skin will darken their face with soot, while a person with dark skin will lighten it with ashes (a common practice, for example, in African and Indian traditions). As for anti-semitism, so far we have only an unsubstantiated assertion from Terri K. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, there were certainly some fascist sympathisers involved with the Morris Ring in its early days in the 1930s; they saw it as an "English" thing that they could usefully latch on to, but so far as I know their influence was not far-reaching or long-lasting. I believe that most of them drifted off into the nascent Pagan movement, but others will know the facts of that. I'm not involved in Morris myself, though I know a good few who are, and, for what it's worth, the majority of them are left-wing in political terms. I doubt very much if there's significant anti-semitism amongst Morris Dancers; at least no more than one would expect in proportion to its existence in the population as a whole. Obviously other people may have a different experience; it would be interesting to know. P.S. I'll pass on the compliment, Liz. Who was it you fancied, then? Malcolm |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: bbelle Date: 02 Jul 00 - 03:46 PM Ok ... I understand about the Moors=Morris and why the blackened faces=Moors ... sort of. Where does the anti-semitism come in to play? Is this a historical reference or is it practiced today? Sephardic Jews (of which I am one) are descended from the Jews of North Africa (the Moors) so I'm curious as to the history ... moonchild |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: Liz the Squeak Date: 02 Jul 00 - 03:29 PM Black faces and being covered in ribbons (or tatters) are methods of disguise (or guise - pronounced geeze) and were used so that if you muffed it up or as things got rowdier, played a trick on your host for not giving you the decent beer, you wouldn't be recognised the next day (except maybe by the bits of soot stuck to your ears...) The tatters were old clothes torn into strips and sewn to a jacket, to disguise the shape of the person, their everyday clothes (in an era when most people were sewn into their only shirt in September and didn't take it off until May [ne'er cast a clout {cloth} till the may be out] and it was recognisable by all), and to keep them warm - a tatter jacket is much warmer than an ordinary one.... try it! The ribbon masks were hoods with stiffened tops that had strips of cloth or ribbons sewn on to disguise the features but still allow space for breathing and playing instruments. There's a bit in one of the Thomas Hardy novels where a girl takes over as one of the mummers - not a seemly thing for a girl, as it involved wearing boys' clothes. Apparently it was OK for a bloke to dress as a girl but not vice versa..... I think it is 'Return of the Native'. LTS PS Malcom, I've just got back from a weekend in Sheffield, parading a giant and playing with Sheffield City Morris - they are a superb team, you're very lucky to have them!! (OK so I fancy at least 3 of them......)
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 02 Jul 00 - 02:15 AM Well, that was constructive, wasn't it? |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: Sailor Dan Date: 01 Jul 00 - 09:20 PM Oh well here I go again. to just dumb old me, and being Irish at that, which should make me doubly stupid in the eyes of the english, The Morris DAncers?? sound like a bunch of queer anti everything assholes that did come to the states and formed another anonymous group of assholes called the KKK. The to are anti everything and instead of blackface they use pillow cases, its easier to get off. IRISH Sailor DAn |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: Mick Lowe Date: 01 Jul 00 - 08:55 PM Okay I'm revisting this after being away again for some time, and hopefully will pick up on a few points that will add to the overall discussion.. As far as anti-semitism is concerned re Morris Dancing.. all I can say is that the whole of Europe (which was the the known world when Morris Dancing was introduced) was anti-semtic. hence streets in England being called "Drury Lane".. i.e. where the Jews lived.. I don't think you can place any blame on Morris dancing for reflecting anti semetic views as Shakespeare's blantant attack on them, in Merchant of Venice.. we have to accept history as it was and hopefully learn by it.. which is what the whole concept of Morris Dancing is about .. it takes centuries old perceptions of fertility and Mother Earth and continues to celebrate the union of man and nature through song and dance.. And yes I know like all religions or religios beliefs it is totally phoney .. here's a question for you.. how many Morris Dancers are atheists?.. i.e. do not believe in the one God?.. do not believe in either the Church of England or RC?.. but I still bet they are happy to dance and sing to pagan beliefs that have streched back countless centuries... And why... because they have an unknowing appreciation of tradition and history.. it doesn't matter whether you believe in the philosophy surrounding a given song/tune.. so long as you can associate with the history surrounding it when you perform it..that song/tune can effect not only yourself whilst playing.. but anyone listening.. Which unfortunately drags me back to very good question ..why don't we get English pubds promoting English traditional music?.. I think Malcolm hit the nail on the head.. Though I think any English catters who view this thread so see it as there sole purpose as educating the rest of the world as to he origins of "folk music"
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: GUEST,Jeremy Date: 30 Jun 00 - 05:25 AM Message to Penny You are correct - the Black Horse is the one in Stansted up in the hills between Meopham and Wrotham. Hard to find but well worth it when you do! By the way, the pub is holding a Kent food and ale festival all week and there will be folk music/singing and morris dancing every night Try calling the Landlord, Ian Duncan for an events list |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: Richard Bridge Date: 27 Jun 00 - 11:54 AM Penny S. Yes. THat Stansted. |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: GUEST,Lady Dorothy Wibley-Forbes Date: 26 Jun 00 - 01:56 PM Or Dottie to my chums. And that really rather depends on you, Richard, old boy! Lady Hermione regrets she's unable to lunch today. She did, though, ask me to pass on her good wishes to all her new friends, and to chastise you, Richard, for being such a naughty chap! You said: Now. If you had have read her words on 08-Jun-00 - 09:23 PM, you would have clearly seen, Treaties of Leake and the like, notwithstanding: Indeed, Richard, grave news. Grave news indeed, Richard! We had time, though, to prepare, and by the time the blasted thing hit, somewhere around 1350, anybody who was anybody, had hopped off to more clement climes to ride out the storm, as it were." You haven't read your Treveleyan, Richard, dear boy! Or Macauley, for that matter. You obviously haven't read closely Lady Hermione's words :( D W-F |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: GUEST,Penny S.(elsewhere) Date: 26 Jun 00 - 12:34 PM Jeremy, is that the same Stansted that lies down little tiny lanes between Wrotham and Meopham? With an ancient yew tree in the churchyard? Penny |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: The Shambles Date: 23 Jun 00 - 08:17 PM And it was Richard Strauss not Wagner. |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: Richard Bridge Date: 23 Jun 00 - 05:30 PM Err - Hermione, did you get a date wrong? Treaty of Leake, 1318. Black death, bubonic plague that swept Europe 1347-1351 and remained endemic in England until 1666. |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: MikeofNorthumbria Date: 23 Jun 00 - 10:20 AM Gervase and The Shambles - thanks for your comments on my paper. As to the question of why so much writing on this topic is "elegaic" ... well, perhaps it's because so many of us doing the writing are getting into our autumnal years (even if we still think of ourselves as young at heart). Most of the young people I know who are interested in traditional music, dance & song seem too busy playing, singing and dancing to spend much time theorising about it. Which is probably a good thing. However, somebody needs to look back and ponder occasionally. As Santayana (the American philospher, not the Mexican general) once said: people who cannot remember their history are condemned to repeat it. But being a historian by trade, I would say that, wouldn't I? Wassail! |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: The Shambles Date: 23 Jun 00 - 07:45 AM Well you know what I mean. What is Kolk? |
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