English Tradition, part two

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Tracey Dragonsfriend
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 01:35 PM

Thomas - very good! A wand'ring minstrel, thou..

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: GUEST,Barfy
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 01:17 PM

Shambles #2

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 12:44 PM

MY FEELING IS CLEAR AS BELL THAT IS RINGING... REVEALING TO ME, NOW TO YOU, THAT THE STINGING... ALLOWS ME TO SAY THAT "TO ME YOU ARE BRINGING"... THE TACIT ASSUMPTION THAT TRACEY IS SINGING...

I CARE NOT FOR POLITICS WHEN IT COMES BETWEEN FRIENDS... FOR IT PLAYS US FOR FOOLS AND WE WILLINGLY BEND... SO CONTORTED THE REASONING, AND LOST IN THE ROLES... WITH US AGAINST US, SHOULD TROLLS PAY THEIR TOLLS?...

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Tracey Dragonsfriend
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 12:02 PM

That's it for me - I'm away (sent off for business) for a fortnight now, so will be unavailable for further debate on this one....

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Snuffy
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 05:32 AM

There already is a Part III - what about part IV?

Wassail! V

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 07:16 PM

How about we go away and let the main antagonists fight it out over this one?

How about part 3.....

LTS

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Ringer
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 08:16 AM

But he does look a right eejit already.

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 06:13 AM

"This overcrowded little island" - there are more people emigrating every year than immigrating, so that really doesn't stand up. And your man Tony Blair was on TV last night taking pride in the fact that unemployment here is now lower than in the rest of Europe.

The papers have been trying to selll us the idea that the 58 people who died were some kind of anonymous mass of humanity being shipped around from continent to continent like so much cattle. They didn't say "bunch of coolies", but that was the underlying message.

Then we saw the film of them hanging around in in Belgium, a bunch of ordinary kids, like any bunch of sixth-formers on a school trip abroad, a bit tired, some of them bored, some excited. Most of the way from China they'd probably come by plane and train and bus. For the final trip into England, with the frontiers sealed so tight, they took the risk of allowinmg themselves to be smuggled in by a container lorry, and it turned out disastrous.

Somebody advised them badly, crimninally so, and they died as a result. But the blame doesn't just lie on imcompetant travel agents. And w've all known those in our time. The fact that these travel agents were acting outside the law doesn't make them that all that different from the ones that turn up on the TV consumer programmes after booking holiday makers into hotels that haven't been finished. But they aren't the only ones to blame - the people who nailed the frontiers shut have something to answer for.

And as for the things about England that have got worse. Things like the litter in the streets and the yobs and the football hooligans and the surly scowls and the unfriendliness that hits you like a blow when you come back from Ireland for example - all that - that's not the doing of the newcomers, it's the native English, for all kinds of reasons noone has satisfactorily explained, though I think the politics and economics of the 80s and 90s has a lot to do with it.

There are so many great things about the native English way of doing things - there is a tolerance and an odd sense of humour, and a disinclination to take themselves too seriously and an instinctive evasion of authority, and a willingness to cooperate. Like the little girl in the nursery rhyme "when they're good they're very very good - and when they're bad they're horrid". And you can say the same of the people of every country, but different places have different ways of being good and of being horrid, and maybe mix the two sides in different proportions.

(And Filbert, get off your high horse. Of course in a pub, I'd offer a stranger in a conversation a seat, and show him where the coat hooks were. And the point about names isn't that there's anything special about your name and of course anyone could use a variation of it without causing a problem. But as it stands there's nothing to stop anybody using exactly the same name, and saying things that would make you look a right eejit. And that kind of thing has happened here before. If you want to have a discussion about why you might not want to get rid of the GUEST tag on your name and so forth, start another thread for God's sake. In this one it's an irrelevant distraction.)

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: sledge
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 05:11 AM

A MORE POSITIVE VIEW>

I recently helped out at a villiage fete at Buriton in the south of England. Folk music was played by our little band and appreciated, but the highlights were the local school children engaging in both Morris and Maypole dances. Coupled with the wonderful weather and very green location it made you realise what a good place England CAN be.

So stop bickering and dust off your Baldricks.

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Terry K
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 04:19 AM

Well said Tracey (I mean about the immigration issue - I won't enter the petty little squabble that someone seems to want to perpetuate) - I have great concerns over the real motivation of many of the people who want to live here. It would be nice to believe that they only want to come to do honest jobs of work and to integrate with our richly diversified society, but I don't have the necessary rose tinted glasses.

My big concern over the Dover 58 is that no matter what their long-term intentions, the very first thing they planned to do in England was to break the law. Not a good start in my book. And if they didn't understand that to be smuggled in without papers was illegal, do we really believe they would readily integrate into a law-abiding society?

Surely, anyone expecting to come here to benefit from the advantages that this country has built over the centuries at least owes us the courtesy of letting us see whether they are likely to be suitable. Judging by past experience, the test is not very difficult to pass.

Terry

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: GUEST,Filbert
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 03:24 AM

'Smartness', Tracey, has nothing to do with Mensa and how priviliged you might feel. Many 'intelligent' people, whilst grasping the intimate workings of Quantum Physics, fail to keep their feet on the ground long enough to look at the world around them and see how it operates.

However, had you a PhD in Sociology, you might spot it, as your work would bring you closer to the sentiment of the grass roots, where all this 'tradition' lives, or gets overwhelmed in the rivers of blood.

I have said before that assumption is a bad thing. And what may be 'considered' a vulgarism in one person's terminology, might not necessarily be so. To 'consider' anything in that way, is to generalise to the same degree as 'considering' that English people are more or less, tolerant.

That is basically my only premise, and I would never have thought about it had you not made a point of making it relevant to this discussion.

When one 'vehemently' purports a popular theory, and another 'vehemently' expresses the unpopular, opposing theory, why is it that the dissenter is always portrayed to be the trouble-maker, with all sorts of accusations levelled at him?
But we have a tendency to do that. It's part of our tradition

Why do some people strive to beat the dissenter into submission, by sufficiently muddying up the waters so, so that they are forced into defending other corners not specifically connected to the matter at hand?

At any other time, perhaps, giving Malcolm a 'Glasgow Kiss' might have been enjoyable, perhaps even appropriate.
But since I don't believe in such activities as a reasonable way to continue discussions, the question would never have been brought up by me either.

I think when people 'over defend' their viewpoint, I can't help but suspect a little of "Methinks thou dost protest too much" (sic)

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Tracey Dragonsfriend
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 02:37 AM

Well, I really do seem to have stirred something up here, don't I! I suppose I should have expected that, but I must admit to being surprised at the vehemence of Filbert's opinions. Then again, we have seen an upswing in less-than-civilised behaviour in certain places of late, as the strength of the moral and ethical codes and the lack of education appear to be somewhat in decline in some areas of the UK population. Perhaps this has some bearing on the matter?

My argument is based on the fact that the UK is not actually a very large land mass, and that we are having trouble coping with the recent unsolicited massive influx of people from all over the world. We have had periods of mass immigration before, when people did indeed come here in search of useful work. These people came from many backgrounds, and were described as "Negroes" and "Indians" at the time. (I have no idea what the relevant PC term would be today, and as they came from many different backgrounds I'd be here for some time specifying their original homes.) This period of immigration shocked many, but these people genuinely wanted to work here and be part of the UK, and as such succeeded. The initial shock-and-fear attitudes have changed since then, and our communities do indeed include people of many colours and cultures working and living together. Not perfectly everywhere, but I never said we were perfect - nobody is.
However, we are now somewhat overcrowded here in these little islands, and have an ongoing unemployment problem. We have little actual work to offer, particularly to the unskilled, (where employment is in especially short supply) so the opportunities to work here are limited. However, we do offer various social support benefits, and (it has to be said, although I know this will offend some) great opportunities for begging and petty theft.
Before you explode with rage, Filbert, this is not just an uninformed opinion, but is based on a recent discussion with some friends in the police forces, who have seen a remarkable upturn in persons arrested for these offences who are from such backgrounds. This is also something I have discussed in passing with people from other countries, many of whom have space and jobs on offer, but not such attractive social benefits - Norway and Denmark, for example. As a person with an analytical scientific background, this data says something to me about the motives of those arriving in the UK, who will travel through any number of other European countries to reach us.
The "English Tradition, whatever that is, is not in danger from mere immigration, but from the attitudes of those already here and those arriving. I care about keeping my heritage alive, as I believe that such things are what binds us together as a nation. It simply makes me unhappy when such things are displaced in favour of the cultural values of others - I feel that these things can exist together. I think that we will be in trouble as a nation if we try to simply replace our values with those of other cultures - we run the risk of having to individual culture or heritage at all, leaving people adrift alone in a sea of conflicting values. I believe that we can actually see this happening, in the drift of how people consider their actions - from "is it good for the country?" to "is it good for my county?" through "is it good for my family?", all the way down to "is it good for me?". If one doesn't feel that you belong to a nation, by sharing it's values and cultures, one feels no drive to act for it's benefit. I think that we can actually see this, in the changing attitudes to such simple things as the cleanliness of our streets and other public places - I do not drop litter, gum or food un the street, I wouldn't dream of spitting on the floor, and I always clear up after myself in a fast-food restaurant... but I am now in the minority in some places. A simple thing, but quite revealing, I think.

By the way, Filbert, I'm not quite sure that I fit your description of "not very smart" terribly well. I am a member of Mensa with an IQ of approximately 165. I have 7 O-levels, 3 A-levels, and a BSc in Mathematics & Physics. I am currently the European Pre-sales & Post-sales Consultant & Trainer for a multinational software house providing PC-based enhancement packages for improving AS/400 and Mainframe interfaces. I travel Europe and the world extensively in the course of this job, which gives me many opportunites to meet interesting people of many countries. What level of intelligence, education and experience were you looking for in a member of this discussion group?
I am also well aware of the etymological background of "bollocks", as the origin of words of all kinds haoppens to be a hobby of mine. It's a recent derivitive of "ballocks", which is an extremely old word, being in common usage until around 1840, but considered a vulgarism since then.

Also, my thanks to everyone who contributed re dragons - I very much appreciate your input! I'll try to snatch a minute to check out your links, etc, leter today. I must dash now - I should really be checking my work email before a meeting today, not gabbing away here!

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: GUEST,Filbert
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 12:34 AM

Evidence for what, Malcolm?

What do I need to prove?

That English people generally are intolerant?
Or that people who think they are, are not very smart?

This thread was merrily Morris-Dancing into the sunset, and along comes somebody who drifts into how tolerant we all are.

You didn't seem to jump on anybody else's back for stating opposing views. Your initial argument with me encompassed everything from supposed rudeness, to not being a member, to making you angry for the first time in a year.
So what criteria are we talking about? I am discussing the English Tradition, Malcolm.
You are too.

You just don't realise it, that's all.

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 12:13 AM

"Putting up", as you well know, is backing up your assertions with evidence, which you have not so far attempted.  I have no desire to exclude you from this discussion, but I would ask you to be a bit more constructive about it, if only so that you don't bore everybody else to death.  Your smugness does you no credit, but simply suggests that you are unable, or unwilling, to engage in informed debate.  If it comes to "worthy opponents", I certainly have no reason -so far- to see you as one.

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: GUEST,Filbert
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 11:12 PM

What exactly is 'putting up', Malcolm?
Do you want to continue discussion on The English Tradition via E-mail?

Can you honestly say that your over-reaction, your desire to exclude me from this discussion is not due to your bruised ego; that preternatural defence mechanism we have when faced with things we don't like or agree with?

Part of the English tradition is the English psyche, Malcolm. And rolling up the sleeves while others hold your coat is proof that discussion has failed.

You are not a worthy opponent, Malcolm. You are letting your emotions take precedence, and exuding all the xenophobia that was seen and heard on the streets of Charleroi and Brussels.

Queensbury Rules on the cobblestones, then, is it?

Ah..... That's tradition for you!

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: GUEST,Viper
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 10:53 PM

Go for it Malcolm!

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 10:50 PM

Grow up or put up,Filbert.  Or, alternatively, shut up.  That would do quite nicely.  If you want to continue the argument, it should be done elsewhere so that we don't waste other people's time and band-width.  I can think of plenty more to say, but this is not the place for it.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: GUEST,Filbert
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 10:37 PM

And Malcolm:
As far as "the argument -which you instigated, whatever your intention may have been-", I will also remind you that my remark was directed towards Tracey Dragonfriend who expressed an opinion which I thought was bollocks.

You then jumped on my back and started an argument with me. When you couldn't think of anything more to say, I am offered 'outside' for a 'cyber-fight' of some sort.

What a load of Cobblers!

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: GUEST,Filbert
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 10:15 PM

"It's about as intolerant, friend GUESTfilbert, as suggesting that a vistor takes their hat and coat off and sits down if they are planning to stay."

That is what one does in a Public 'House', isn't it?

As far as someone else using Filbert to sign in, I have no real problem with that. Filbert G, or whatever would be preferable to avoid confusion and the like, but other than that, I don't see any reason why he shouldn't. You see, I was not baptised with a GUEST, tag before my name, and calling someone 'GUESTfilbert' is as deliberate as it is bordering on the rascist.

"If you clock in as a member you can use all kinds of useful little gizmos built into the system, like being able to send Peronal Messages to peope saying you think they are a pillock or the best thing since sliced bread."

I have no desire to to do things like that, why should I? I could give you my E-mail address, if you would like, and you can tell me these things, if you want. It seems such a waste of time, though, as you don't seem to mind telling each other these things publicly. In fact, you make quite an art of it.

Taking that hypothesis to it's logical conclusion, the Forum would only serve as a reference point for all these Personal Messages. Or better still, perhaps, ALL correspondance would take place via E-mail and the Forum would then become redundant.
Remember also, McGrath of Harlow, that you were the one who suggested the idea of fighting. Why on earth would you suggest something like that? I certainly didn't 'imply' anything in my posts that I was ready to grab for a cyber base-ball bat. Stop searching for dragons where there are none.

But what has this got to do with English Tradition, apart from the obvious, of course?

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 10:10 PM

Filbert:

It is indeed a public forum, which is why your earlier remark "And unless you are Dragonfriend, I wasn't actually speaking to you" is rather beside the point.  I should, I suppose, congratulate you on being the first person here in over a year to have succeeded in winding me up sufficiently to make me angry; don't take it as a compliment, though: your comments so far have not been as clever as you may suppose.  This thread, and in particular this part of it, has now become over-long; if you would like to continue the argument -which you instigated, whatever your intention may have been- I would suggest, as McGrath said, that we "take it outside".  If you don't feel comfortable about becoming a member and sending a personal message, you can email me at [e-mail] if you feel so inclined.  If you feel you have nothing further to say, that's fine too.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 09:27 PM

It's about as intolerant, friend GUESTfilbert, as suggesting that a vistor takes their hat and coat off and sits down if they are planning to stay.

If you clock in as a member you can use all kinds of useful little gizmos built into the system, like being able to send Peronal Messages to peope saying you think they are a pillock or the best thing since sliced bread. And it means other people can be sure that you're the same person, or at least the same computer that signed in with your name last time. Which we can't now.

Anybody could send a message now signing in as GUESTfilbert and say things you would find most irritating, and we'd all think it was you. Maybe someone already has, in which case I'm talking to both of you.

Intolerance indeed. If you want to keep your hat and coat and get hot and sticky and uncomfortable, noone is going to stop you, or eject you. Or your doppelgangers if there are any...

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: GUEST,Filbert
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 09:14 PM

"But when people insist on being GUESTS, and refuse to go through the elemantary process involved in becoming a member,....."
That has to be one of the most uncharitable statements I have yet read.

This is a PUBLIC discussion forum, not a PRIVATE one. We come here to publicly discuss. What members chose to do with their time is entirely up to them, and I would not criticise them for doing so

So far we have intolerance. Don't start putting predjudice in there as well, or heaven knows where that might lead us!

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 08:36 PM

Now this is the sort of dispute which is better conducted via Personal Messages, the Mudcat equivalent to "Come outside and say that again" in a pub.

But when people insist on being GUESTS, and refuse to go through the elemantary process involved in becoming a member, at no cost whatsoever, it's impossible to do it that way.

As for Dragons, here's a song by Chesterton, with a Dragon, and a very appropriate one for this thread as it happens. And here is the first verse for those who are loathe to push the blue clicky thing.

St George he was for England,
And before he killed the dragon
He drank a pint of English ale
Out of an English flagon.
For though he fast right readily
In hair-shirt or in mail,
It isn't safe to give him cakes
Unless you give him ale.

A bit unkind to Dragons, you mioght say. But it was trying to eat a maiden. Which is of course a traditional ritual for Dragons round these parts.

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: GUEST,Filbert
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 08:30 PM

Anyone who thinks the English, generally speaking, are a tolerant people, are not very smart I'm afraid.
That is not assumption, merely a statement of fact. And it all has a bearing on our tradition, Malcolm. And vice versa.

And unless you are Dragonfriend, I wasn't actually speaking to you.
The word 'bollocks' is not 'rude' either.
It's another gem of our language misconstrued down through the many years of our changing tradition. We should be proud that such progenies of our vast wealth of heritage has permeated the language so as to be incorporated into daily usage, by peoples so diversely spread across the globe, that very often common denominators such as language can give us all a certain equality and a starting point from which to develop stronger relationships and ties.
Is this not something to be proud of? Instant cognition, based on a common vocabulary?

One thing, however we especially are guilty of , and that is of being intolerant to criticism; our sense of self-assuredness and superiority instilled into our collective psyches by a lot of the very subjects that have been expounded upon in these threads.

You have proved my theory, Malcolm. I didn't particularly want to go this direction; the thread-drift was not of my making, but I'm afraid if we live in jam-jars, we don't see ourselves the way others see us.

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 07:48 PM

Filbert:

You accuse me of making assumptions?  What about "You're not a very smart person, are you? "  If you have something constructive to contribute to this discussion, by all means do so; otherwise you might do better to remain silent.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: JohnB
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 06:49 PM

Immigration should not, I hope, cause any great ill effects to English Traditions, as there are obviously many people on this thread alone trying to continue them. Emmigration causes them to spread further afield, as can be proven by the vast numbers of people practising the English Traditions, Morris Dancing, Singing Traditional songs, Drinking Beer and even in some cases Soccer (or subtitute sport of choice)Hooliganism, on this side of the Atlantic. Canada in my case.

The other direction of this thread seems to be Dragons, now please do not think me a dragon hater, I have even made some wrought iron ones to hold my daughters curtains up and we do have a few around the house. It is like this though the only song that I can think of that has not been mentioned yet is one with the Dragon on the losing side, "Sir Eglamore that Valiant Knight". Sorry JohnB

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: GUEST,Filbert
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 05:29 PM

"seemed","implying", "assuming".
If that is how you make "judgements", Malcolm, and you 'seem' to not tolerate typos either, well, what more could I possibly want to know about you?

When you assume, you make an ass out of u and me.

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 05:15 PM

No more you did, in so many words; though you certainly seemed by the vehemence of your reply to be implying it. If Filbert is your real name, then I apologise for assuming that it was an alias.  As for intolerance; well, I am most certainly intolerant of rudeness.  If I were you, I should probably refrain from making any judgements about my tolerance -or lack of it- in other matters than that until you know something about me, and have learned how to spell my name.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: GUEST,Filbert
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 04:41 PM

My name is Filbert, and I did not say the English were any more rascist than others.

Why are you so intolerant of others, Malcom?

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 04:36 PM

Of course there is racism in the UK; far too much of it, though certainly less than in many other places, whatever Rude Filbert may think.  (Wouldn't it be better if people who think they are important enough to make offensive remarks were to have the courage to use their real names?)

Whatever the situation may have been in the past, there's hardly a country in the industrialised world that doesn't try to exclude economic migrants nowadays, and to be fair, the Chinese migrants who died at Dover wound up in that container lorry because they were misled and betrayed by the Chinese gangsters who took their money, promising them a better life in Europe.  The legal barriers around this island are no more stringent than those around most other EEC nations, and very little can be done about the geographical barriers.

I don't believe for a moment, incidentally, that immigration threatens English traditions; of course there will be a few examples of over-careful schools being silly about (religious) observances, but they are a small minority for which I don't think Government can be blamed.  As McGrath says, immigration has more usually resulted in an enrichment of tradition, though it tends to take a generation or two before immigrant groups integrate sufficiently for the population as a whole to become aware of, and to accept, their traditions; historically, the larger an immigrant group is, the longer it is likely to remain discrete and therefore sometimes perceived as a threat.  Attempting to hurry this process will inevitably result in misunderstandings, but I don't really see an alternative if children from cultural minorities are to get an appropriate education -i.e. one which takes due account of their various cultural backgrounds as well as those of the host nation- in State schools. Please note that when I speak of integration I am not talking about assimilation, although that is what has generally happened to immigrant communities here in the past.  There is, of course, nobody at all living in these islands who does not have immigrant ancestors; "the English" (though I dislike that blanket term, probably because it is so often used to criticise) are the most mongrel race in Europe, and all the better for it to my mind.  Postwar immigration has been on an unprecedented scale, which can be frightening for some, particularly those who are to an extent marginalised by poverty or lack of education; though I deplore the racism that can sometimes result from this fear, I nevertheless recognise the concerns -real or imagined- which give rise to it.  Understanding a problem is a necessary first step to dealing with it.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 04:19 PM

Try Anne Lister - she's got a great song about them on a CD "Spreading Wings"

I have seen them on the wings of morning
On rosy clouds of dawn I've seen them fly
And I have seen them, their eyes dark with firelight
Their wings flashing sunlight across the sky
Don't talk to me of reality, don't talk to me of lies
If all you saw were clouds across the sky.

...and there are another four or so verses. (Anne had been reading Ursula Leguin, I believe.)

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Bagpuss
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 04:09 PM

Dragons: Only song I can think of is "Puff the Magic Dragon"!!!!

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 04:00 PM

Tracey - you and I are kindred spirits - as anyone will tell you, who's been here, the house is full of dragons, here there and everywhere. There is one on the stairs, one in the loo (and on it....) there are at least 350 lurking around, and I got married with three in attendance.... there were even 2 on the (chocolate) wedding cake.....! Perhaps we ought to start swapping dragontales....

LTS

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Bagpuss
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 03:54 PM

Did anyone actually say that the English are racists?

I didn't - just think we are not as tolerant as we like to believe. I still hear people on the bus talking about "pakis" and "poofs". I just think we shouldn't get complacent - theres a lot still needs to be done.

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 03:25 PM

There's racists in every country. Saying "the English are racist" or "the English aren't racist" are both meaningless generalisations.

There's lots of English people who aren't racists. And there are too many who are. And the important thing is to minimise the effect of the ones who are, and help them get out of that way of thinking if possible.

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: GUEST,Filbert
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 03:16 PM

"Well, the English are definitely more tolerant than some, I would say"

Bollocks

You're not a very smart person, are you?

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 02:37 PM

It's a bit rich to have the English complaining about people coming here after hundred of years of spreading out all over the planet totally regardless of what anyone else might feel about it.

Fifty eight dead bodies in a container truck in Dover, people who just wanted to come here and do useful jobs of work, that's the price of trying to keep barriers up around this island.

England's got a lot of good traditions which deserve to be honoured and maintained, and if that is done we'll end up with a much richer culture. But racist cracks about foreigners coming in and living off our backs doesn't help that to happen. And very few people I know in tye foklk world would have any respect for that kind of talk. thank God.

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: selby
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 02:06 PM

Our Traditional music is as diverse as the people who live in this Country of ours. All of us have an intrest in the tradition's and music, or we wouldn't be discussing them as we do. I have sung & played in folk clubs I have danced on the streets as a traditional dancer I have played in sessions and I have built a giant but the one thing that strikes me most is I have enoyed it, is that not what all tradition's is about. Keith

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Tracey Dragonsfriend
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 01:37 PM

Well, the English are definitely more tolerant than some, I would say. If I don't like something, I might write a stern letter to the Times or my MP to express my disapproval, rather than taking an Uzi or sawn-off shotgun and hunting down the person I deem responsible. Although that's a thought to consider, you know! If we shot all the politicians, then surely some honest people would turn up to do the job instead? Maybe not, though...
As regards racism, I definitely think things are going a bit far now, with whole government departments and heaps of thoroughly-politically-correct "persuns" making sure that nothing could possibly offend anyone, and making sure that nayone who chooses to turn up on our shores has the best possible treatment. It's all a bit odd - I wouldn't turn up at Calais, Dusseldorf or Kabul with a suitcase and expect the long-time residemts of that country to speak English to me, feed, clothe & house me, after all! Maybe Australia has it right - prove that you have something to offer them and they'll let you move there.
Re the name, I have a fairly vast collection of dragons of all sorts - pewter dragons, china dragons, lots of silver jewellery with dragons(much of which stays on permanently - I always have 3 dragons about my person at all times! Well, you never know when you might need one!)glass & stone dragons, cute cuddly furry dragons... I'm hoping that this flabby pink bipedal body is just a larval stage, and that the scales & wings will start to come in any day now! But I guess if it hasn't happened yet, and I'm 35 now, it possibly never will.
There's another thought, though - does anyone know any dragon songs? I found a pair in some song Db, being "Do Virgins Taste Better?" and "The Dragon's Retort", but that's all so far, unless you count "The Lampton Worm"! Dragons are pretty old in English tradition, after all...

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Bagpuss
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 11:51 AM

"Why can't everybody be tolerant like the English?"

?????????????? I must be living in a different England!

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Albatross
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 11:33 AM

I agree with Tracey Dragonsfriend (what an excellent name!) there are too many do gooders around when it comes too racism OK it is awful and despicable but we should always remember that europeans are also disliked in third world countries and that there is obviously a natural tendency to be discerning and to dislike neighbours eg flemish/walloons, turkish/greeks, kurds/iraq, nomads/non nomads (berbers, samis, kurds),etc.

Why can't everybody be tolerant like the English?

But then on a lighter note the best Ladies morris team I ever saw was White Ladies Morris from Bristol. They were all young, beautiful and georgeous but then that was in 1977 at a Manchester Morris day of dance.

Morris dancing is seen in an oil painting of an idyllic country scene of the Ashburnham estate from 1700. Their dancing provided fertility in agriculture and weddings though no doubt this practice was severely frowned upon by puritans who have a lot to answer for in the way of 'witch hunting' out many old dances and traditions. A Sheffield Morris team used to always introduce their dance performance by saying that: "Morris dancing is an old tradition that will bring you good luck, fortune and fertility and if you don't like the fertility then you can spread it on the garden"

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Tracey Dragonsfriend
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 03:35 AM

And so it should be! It's part of our heritage, and as such we should celebrate it. So many of our traditions are being eroded away, by the importation of so many people that couldn't care less about England as long as it houses & pays them for doing nothing, and the relentless pressure to become more European, American, multicultural,... anything but English!
For example, my local school actually isn't allowed to celebrate Christmas or Easter in case it offends someone, but does celebrate Diwali, Chanukah, and endless others. Now, I'm happy to have other culture's traditions celebrated, but in addition to, not instead of, our own! It's a very, very strange thing our government are trying to do...

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jul 00 - 06:59 PM

There's Morris Dancing done as public entertainment (well aspiring to be public enteertainment) and there's (maybe the same dances and the same people) done as ritual. When a bunch of dancers gather at 5am to dance at the Puddlestone on May 1st in Standon, there's not much public entertainment going on. And the pubs aren't even open.

And I've never been to see them because I'm snoring away in my bed,like all sensible people. But I'd be annoyed if I heard it wasn't going to happen. And I know mpeople who'd be so annoyed they'd get out of bed and do it themselves, probably swearing volubly while they were doing it.

And in a sense even when Morris Dancing is done more as entertainment (in front of a pub for example) there's an element of that - just turn and look at the people passing. So many of them smile approvingly as they walk by, pleased that it's still going on. And I'm not talking about folkies here either. It's a bit like village cricket, there in the background, not a spectator sport at all, more a seasonal ritual.

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 05 Jul 00 - 06:16 PM

Try one of the Morris Dance pages - I'm sure if the SO weren't out organising a tour this very night, he'd be able to give me an address - something like the Morris Dancers discussion forum.

He's out organising for East Saxon Sword, in the West End. 5 pubs he said, but that was 6 hours ago.....

LTS

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Tracey Dragonsfriend
Date: 05 Jul 00 - 12:25 PM

Oh, it was you & yours, was it, Liz? Now we know who to blame! Seriously, though - they do a good job of it, don't they? I get the feeling there's not many there of the chained-leather-hat brigade - if you ever wanted a definition of "male" they're it!
I wonder where they can be found this summer...

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 05 Jul 00 - 12:03 PM

Royal Liberty Morris, based in Essex/East London have been known to dance publicly and on TV dressed in bike leathers and using bits of scaffold pole or tractor spanners for sticks. They are a sight to behold - excellent style with a different slant - and speaking as an ageing greasy biker chick type, we do want to talk about them, because there are quite a lot that hide in folk and blues clubs, don't ye know!!

Regrettably, my SO taught the original members of Royal (or Right) Liberty everything they know...... ergh...

LTS

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Bagpuss
Date: 05 Jul 00 - 11:37 AM

Captain Pugwash - the stuff about rude names is definitely made up. There was Jim the cabin boy (not Roger), and it was Master Mates, not Bates. But there is a kids tv site that has a wav file where they say Master Bates - I dont know if it was a slip of the tongue in the original, or whether it has been altered to support the myth.

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Ringer
Date: 05 Jul 00 - 11:33 AM

Okiemockbird: This is going to be positively my last word on the subject, and I'm afraid I'm going to sound patronising, but I don't mean to be. I think it's like the Harley: if you can't see it, you wouldn't understand even if it was explained. I have no axe to grind on the subject of "ritual" -- if you don't like it, don't use it. I use it only when I wish to lump together Morris, Long-sword and Rapper and distinguish them from Country Dancing.

I had to look up "tendentious", and find it defined as "intended to further a cause". What cause do you belive the coiners of the adjective ritual wrt Morris Dancing were intending to further?

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: GUEST,Tracey
Date: 05 Jul 00 - 11:26 AM

The "Captain Pugwash" bit might be because of the old urban legend that the characters in the cartoon had suggestive names. "Seaman Staines" and "Master Bates" are the ones most often quoted, but I don't believe that this is actually true - the show's creator hotly denies anything of the sort! Also re Morris Dancers being "manly"... you can't get much more masculine (except for a certain subset in leather hats with little chains and cut-outs in their tight leather trousers that we don't usually associate with much!) than the great British biker, right? Well, there is a biker Morris troupe - I've seen them with my own eyes. Blasted great hairy chaps in denim and leather that arrive on beautiful chopped Brit bikes, using Whitworth spanners instead of sticks. The heavy bike boots and spanners make a nice clomping, ringing melody to accompany them, and they're extremely energetic and most entertaining. I'm not sure if this particular form of propitiating the gods would ideally result in a good harvest, or just good riding weather in our fickle English climate, but a good time was most definitely had by all!

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 05 Jul 00 - 02:29 AM

JohnB - you want to make giants? Where are you? We always need more people to make and carry giants - if you are serious, send me personal message and we'll go from there...... And there is at least one giant in the USA made traditionally (i.e., not an inflatable......) - and they are definately NOT a Punch and Judy, although if you want to build one........?!

LTS