BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 07:18 PM

I doubt I'll ever feel an emotional closeness with anyone again. But I have felt liked by a few 'catters, and that's pretty darn good for me. Not a 'sex' thing, but rather a sense of friendship that is neat. This site seems to do that because people to greater or lesser degrees share their souls, and it's hard not to like people who do that. So I feel a sense of 'liking' back. (Some people just dislike everyone, but they do not proliferate on the 'cat.) Stray thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: freda underhill
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 04:03 PM

re greece..

i have a greek son in law. greek australian that is. the greeks in australia are very conservative, generally.

being pretty boho, i was nervous about meeting the in laws, and about my future son in law, and the future implications for my oldest daughter.

five years later i can only say that my son in law is now my son, his parents are now my close friends, and i couldn't have asked for a better family for my daughter, and a better father for my grandchild.

my daughter will be having a baby in september.

meanwhile, i am also still single.

i now am beginning to feel closeness and affection for some catters in here, and interest and respect.

yes, bring on the technology for instant travel through time and space.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 11:40 AM

I agree, B&B, that I have opened myself up on mudcat in such a short time it amazes me. How on earth can it be possible to feel safe with a bunch of virtual strangers is beyond me, and I completely agree that using the Guest alias is well worth having for those times when you so want to open up and need just that extra feeling of personal and emotional safety to do so.
I can't imagine what it would have been like to have been face to face with you all while trying to say what I was able to write!
LH-yup, Greece is one of those "nice place to visit if you don't look too closely and don't stay too long" places. I did both, unfortunately, but hey, it's all grist for the Cosmic Mill, eh?..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,Guest from 7.41am
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 11:23 AM

Allan - I know, but sometimes you have to be absolutely sure about these things. I'm not about to cause any more complications. I have enough confusing emotions without letting too many people know what I'm thinking.
I'm glad if I managed to add to the discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Allan C.
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 11:07 AM

Guest(s), you can always be sure your posting will be as a guest rather than your Mudcat name. "Membership Has Its Rewards" appears near the top of the main Forum page and your Mudcat name will not be displayed next to the "From:" above the Reply to Thread box.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,Bothered and Bewildered
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 10:56 AM

Hello, Guest of 07.41 AM. I think what you have to say DOES cast light on the discussion, and I'm glad you have joined in. I agree with you, I think there's no doubt that getting to know someone gradually in a group situation is by far the better way, and is to be handled differently from the out-of-the-blue surprise encounters when you are not looking.

What I am going to say now could also be said on the "What I like about Mudcat" thread: As Freda and others have said, I am so glad that this is a place where we can all feel safe enough to be as frank and open as people have been on this thread, and contributing such a wide variety of thoughtful insights (as on so many other threads on Mudcat) where we can think around a subject, and clarify our thoughts, on something that clearly a lot of people here want to have the opportunity to talk about.

There have been some discussions recently about whether or not to continue with the facility for people to post as "Guest", because of a troublesome few. Without the possibility for regular Mudcat members to post anonymously as Guests, a thread like this might no longer exist, or would be very different in content, and I think that would be a great pity. If I had had to put my name to this thread, I would never have started it. So, thank you Mudcat, and thank you Mudcat friends, for letting me be shy on this occasion. (I'm not, usually !)

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 10:51 AM

My God, Ellenpoly, what a story! I was tremendously reminded of Gerald Durrell's marvelous book "My Family and Other Animals" which is the story of his growing up with his weird family on the Greek island of Corfu. The stuff he said about the situation of cats in Greece sounded very similar to your story. The Durrells, of course, were eccentric English people, and did things THEIR way...which was anything but the way the Greeks did things.

This whole thing doesn't speak very well for the Greek soul, if you ask me. If I reincarnate as a cat I will try not to land there!

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 07:41 AM

sorry the one above was me as I was testing that I had just removed my cookie.

I am reading this with interest being a relatively mature person ( although others might disagree) and having been single now for 18 months or so after a long , long relationship. I find that I am about ready to start again and feel a mixture of confidence and paranoia.   I have recently lost a lot of weight and am totally unsure of how people relate to me. Sometimes I feel that I am moving from fat to curvy and sometimes I think I am kidding myself.

But to get back to the point.   I think how you develop a relationship depends very much on a complex set of circumstances. I currently have my eye on someone that I have known for a few months and may see in a group every couple of weeks (totally wrong for me - much older and going through a complicated divorce, but who can dictate attraction).   Now because I know him resonably well I could imagine going quite quickly to a physical relationship if anything happened but if I met someone completely new I think it would take a much longer period of time.   

This is of course pure speculation and casts very little light on the dicussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 07:23 AM

testing

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: kendall
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 07:08 AM

freda, you gotta get out on the limb; that's where the fruit is.

Anyone who mis treats animals is my sworn enemy.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 07:04 AM

I'm sorry I went off on a kitty jag, freda. I so agree with all that you just wrote..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: freda underhill
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 06:27 AM

i did group therapy for a few years, and know how people can present a particular image, to others and to themselves.

people have been very open in this thread, and it has felt sincere and truthful.

we live in different continents & will probably never meet. but its interesting to talk about these things in a close yet distant way. the only thing i can compare it to is talking with a gay friend - there is mutual affection, but an understanding of no involvement. it creates a good environment for empathy & insight.

for me, i am wondering whether i will ever have a relationship again. i have developed the beginning of some physical limitations connected with ageing. I have a close relationship with my children and am becoming more "mumsy" as i get older.

to open up to someone is to take a risk. and i think inside there are a lot of feelings that want to express themselves, and a cocktail of hormones. it is so hard to see through those things to know what is really happening, plus the one step forward two steps back dance where people check each other out. to open up, & go exploring is also to place yourself at risk of feeling unrequited feelings of longing.

and it can be a real fantasy which can dissolve in a moment when the illusion bursts.

and as i said i appreciate very much other people's thoughts and openness.   

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: freda underhill
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 06:04 AM

going back to the original question - this is all very theoretical. in all truth i am very out of touch.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 04:01 AM

I LOVE that this thread has veered off onto animals!!! I think it's absolutely perfect!

I grew to love cats because my brother kept bringing them home. (What I didn't find out until much much later is that he also tortured them, which is why they quickly disappeared...and I know I know, it's a sure sign of the beginnings of a serial killer, but instead, he became a folk singer, and that straightened him right out). The cats were always black and the first was named Javert (after the obsessed policeman in Les Miserables) and the second was named Miro (after the Spanish Painter). They were both as neurotic as he was, but between the cats and my brother, it was always easier to understand and forgive them.

When next I had cats, it was in Greece, where the idea of having a pet cat is just considered ridiculous, bordering on abhorrent. Cats are for torturing, kicking, throwing food at from outside restaurants, etc,...not to have in the home. So I immediatly found and brought home two kittens who were brothers, named them Mr Vouros and Mr Zisis, after two characters in my "Learn Greek in Six Months" book, and watched my "wasband" screw his face up in all kinds of interesting contortions. Then, within 10 minutes, I SWEAR, I watched that man become MUSH. He fell completely in love with those critters, and we went on throughout the years, to accumulate about 15 more.

They lived around the guesthouse we ran, though not inside anywhere but our side of the house. Most established their territories around the peripherie,having meals with us, and knowing that if they became ill, they could always crawl back home and be administered to.

Why did we have so many? Not our idea entirely...but a very pregnant Mama cat showed up on our doorstep one day and made the place her own. Who were we to argue, especially when the first six that popped out bore striking resemblances to our Messrs V and Z? (By the way, the idea of getting a cat Fixed was utterly hilareous to the Greeks. They would miss the opportunity to drown the buggers. There were no vets on our island until a bunch of us foreigners actually paid to have a Brit come over and help us out in exchange for food and lodging.)

So we became an extended cat family...and even managed to add a black labrador to the mix when he found him being tortured by yet another fun loving Greek.

Do I have a point to any of this? Not really, except that sometimes animals find you. Like some people, animals can often figure out who is safe, who isn't going to purposely hurt them, Who will feed them, and help them, and when they do, their loyalty is pretty encompassing.

After I left Greece I no longer was in a position to have animals of my own, and became everyone's favorite pet sitter. They knew with me, they'd get a loyal loving friend, which I've always tried to be to my human pals as well...Truth as I see it these days, spreading love to the furry is not a lot different, and often the payoff is even greater....!..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: kendall
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 09:32 PM

I'm with Mary to a certain extent. The one thing that I can't stand about cats is their need to walk all over the counter or dining room table after scratching around in their filthy litter box. I've had cats but they learned to stay the hell off the table and counter at an early age.
I have a big Labrador retriever that I am very fond of, but he does not ever go into my bedroom. He has his own bed in the living room. I don't get into his bed, he doesn't get into mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Peace
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 09:10 PM

Amergin: LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 05:05 PM

I feel kind of the same way, Mary, but not as strongly as you, I guess...

I prefer outside dogs to inside dogs, but it depends on the situation. Litter boxes are a dumb idea, unless you live in a highrise. Cats can quite easily be trained to ask to go outside when they are young. All ours were.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: mg
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 04:57 PM

I could put up with animals. I could even pet them now and then. I like lambs and furry rabbits but still don't want them in the house. I could tolerate, not enjoy but tolerate, certain dogs in the house proper, but not in the bedroom. I think animals in general belong outside in proper animal shelters. I think people belong outside more too. The bottom line has to do with litter boxes etc.   mg

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 04:35 PM

That's interesting, Mary, cos I was just talking to a male friend yesterday who stated firmly that if any woman couldn't put up with (and like) his dog and other pets there was no way he'd want to get into a relationship with her. Evidently, you and he are not going to get together... :-)

I have this obscure feeling that people who tend to be political conservatives also tend not to like cats. I wonder if I'm right about that? Naw...it's probably a gross generalization.

In my own case, I like pets and animals generally, but have decided that I feel a lot freer (to come and go, and so on) living without them, so I'm much less inclined to have pets now than when I was younger. Ideally speaking, I would prefer not to have pets at this point. There are 2 dogs here, but they're not really my dogs, so it's not my problem to take care of them. They are amusing company, though. Weiner dogs seldom fail to be amusing, I find.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: mg
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 04:16 PM

I find cats extremely annoying. I would never have one in the house. I of course would not want a man who was abusive to animals, but he sure as heck would not have to even tolerate cats. And no way would I share a bedroom, much less a bed with any animals..and would not take on a man who expected as much.

mg

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 04:11 PM

I'm back. Got busy for awhile there.

I should mention that I also like cats, and always have liked them. Dogs? I like some of them and don't like others. Some dogs are too aggressive for my taste, and some are too pushy. It depends on the individual. Most cats I find are quite likeable, though there is the odd paranoid sorehead among cats.

I had something I tried to post yesterday and it wouldn't go through. I think I saved it in the buffer. Let's see...

Yes, there it is:


Sounds like you're a faster learner than many or even most people, Freda. Good for you. :-) I've observed many, many people who seem to be in the grip of a "lemming-like drive towards being with someone for the wrong reasons". This is because they don't want to change.

In my own case, I've noticed that the women I became seriously involved with seemed to be roughly in 2 categories:

1. Those I had a ton of really difficult issues to work out with...those involvements were all long, complex, and exceedingly painful at times...with their really great moments too.

2. Those I had not too many issues to work out with...those involvements were generally a lot shorter and less painful...also with their great moments.

But that's only me.

Of my parents (who have been together for their whole adult lives) I would say: they came together in order to drive each other up the wall, frustrate the hell out of each other for about 60 years, and be extremely co-dependent in a way that seems to work for them. Not my idea of paradise! :-)

I always sought relationships because I expected happiness from them, and I wanted to be "in love". That's a pretty common set of motivations, I think. I was looking for emotional security, companionship, affection, loyalty, all that kind of good stuff. Every relationship turned out to be a golden opportunity to face and deal with my own blind spots and weaknesses. I think that's what my therapist is talking about. Relationships allow you to exercise your character in a rigorous and challenging setting that is very demanding. They are not a trip to a vacation paradise free of stress. If you are up to changing and growing, you can do a lot with a relationship. If you just want others to change so you can feel good, you are in for a miserable time.

You know what real relationship is? It's loving service. Loving is not about receiving, it's about rendering service...while NOT surrendering your own personal sovereignty in the process. He who can serve another selflessly while still remaining free and sovereign within himself has really made something of his life.

I figure I'm about halfway there at this point.

And YES...to respect someone is everything. I never got involved with someone I didn't respect at the time.

And to Guest: The only experience I have ever had around the after sex/respect issue with women was this - I respected them even MORE after sex than I did before. Without exception. And I am a North American male. I guess I wasn't brought up in the macho value system you are speaking of, although it certainly is out there, no question of that. My parents didn't really teach me much of anything about sex, nor did my schoolmates. I got my ideas about it primarily from books depicting romantic stories about "true love". I never had one negative feeling about it in any way, nor about the people I had it with. It was pure and beautiful. It was practically the only major thing in my young life that did not get compromised or damaged in some way by someone while I was growing up.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Allan C.
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 04:01 PM

Thanks, B&B. It appears we may never agree on this; but I do understand how what this author said as was further explained by Ellenpoly has colored your thinking. For some reason I am reminded of the verse from the song, "I'm A Drifter". I suppose it might partially illustrate your point of view.

I've made love in your city
To the poor and the pretty
Thought I was clever and smart
But I've ended up lonely
With nothing but only
A song and a half of a heart.


Maybe I'll sing it for you sometime.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,Bothered and Bewildered
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 03:35 PM

Allan, I do understand that you are not a 'complete gadabout' (nice expression !) and are arguing philosophies here. So am I. I still think you have yet to understand what is being said here. If you re-read the 8th and 9th paragraphs of Ellenpoly's post of 05.06 AM, she has set out, very clearly, some of the emotional/psychological consequences. Like it or not, deny it or not, 'recreational sex' DOES have its consequences. Like it or not, deny it or not, what we do with and to our bodies DOES affect our psyche/soul/spirit (call it what you will), and vice versa.

As for the vast array of 'self-help' books on the market, I am inclined to agree with you Harvey, and Guest of 09.06 AM. This particular book is part of teaching material for a post-divorce discussion programme. Nobody is making money out of it.

In all areas of life, and throughout life, we make mistakes. In the aftermath, we have the choice of making changes, possibly difficult, painful changes to the way we act, react, view the world.... or of continuing on the same old way. The latter may appear to be the easier option, but it comes with a cost. The next time that particular situation arises unless we have been willing to change, we make the same mistake again...and again...

Sometimes, when someone reacts very energetically against a viewpoint, it may be because they have recognized the inherent truth in it. That is why discussions like this are so good and so useful.

Ellenpoly & 'Middle-aged Man' - thank you both very much for your posts. Yes - your thoughts on this are the same as mine.

Brucie: You LIKE CATS? I thought so. I always had you down as a sensitive and trustworthy and lovely fella. You just went to the wrong girl in the wrong supermarket, that's all. Hope this makes you feel a bit better :)

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Amergin
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 02:20 PM

You know...the advice some one mentioned earlier about not putting out can make a man more interested is very very true...Yesterday, I became acquainted with a new male friend...and he became rather attached to my leg...my leg refused to give in to his animal desires and gently pushed him off...my friend became more insistant...but my leg was gently firm in its refusal. My young male friend then has been following me...or rather my leg ever since....even into the bathroom and into bed....He politely respected the wishes of my leg and did not attempt to make a pass on it...and he and my leg had a pleasant night together.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 01:42 PM

We have a saying in Mexico: "La pija parada no respecta nada."

It's the proverb heard around the world.

Personally, I'm with Diana Ross: "You can't hurry love. No, you just have to wait." Can't make it happen no matter what rules you may devise. I doubt that any rules systems will weed out the false positives, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,Middle Aged Man
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 10:41 AM

Sorry I misread what was happening--I really can't speak to any of the other issues, but I do know a ittle bit about the "Is he really interested in ME - human beings could all win Oscars as actors - or, as a foreigner working in this country, does he see me and my address as a way to stay here ?" business .

A good friend in our age bracket, with a good career, house, and a long term failed marriage in her past had just about settled on what she called "The sadder but wiser lifestyle" when she met and was swept off her feet by a charming and romantic foreigner.

He seemed perfect--he loved her, doted on her, and, on top of that, he loved all of her friends(that should have been the tipoff right there!)--after the wedding, things changed drastically. He spent a lot of time away--he ignored her when they were together, except when he wanted something, when he became dictatorial, and, ultimately, he became abusive--she filed for divorce, criminal charges, and made statement to INS as well, not surprisingly, he disappeared--

Not that it always happens this way--but better to be safe than sorry--

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: freda underhill
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 10:41 AM

i like mudcats..

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Peace
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 10:33 AM

OK, how many times I gotta tell the ladies on this thread that "I LIKE CATS."

To who ever said that gals should see how men like cats as a barometer of their sensitivity and trustworthiness and crap like that: IT DON'T WORK. I have been trying it for three days. I saw this number in Safeway; walked over; said, "Hi. I'm Brucie. I LIKE CATS." She called the manager. Lousy pickup line.

freda: LMAO, good one.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 10:05 AM

B&B, I've already said a whole lot more than I meant to in the beginning, and if I could have written this one as a personal message, I'd have preferred it, but since I can't so be it.

The man I married back in the early 70s was Greek, and between meeting and marrying, all of 5 months elapsed. I had no intention of EVER getting married to anyone, and only agreed to marry him to help him get a Visa so he could go to the States and work if he so wished.

I had no expectations going into the marriage that it would last, and perhaps that turned out to be beneficial, as I found I was continally being surprised at what we had in common and how many new ideas we had to share with each other. Every day was a surprise, and we stayed together for a decade.(The other side of the coin is that we were both mentally unstable as hell, and it's a miracle we both survived the experience..but that's another story.)

But the point I'd like to make here is, my being American and his being Greek became a really difficult hurdle at some time fairly early on. For all the exterior facets of this man being presented to me as an enlightened Citizen of the World, I found you only had to scratch the surface to find the Greek, who is educated from infancy to look in the mirror and see a little Alexander the Great staring back out at him. The statistics of marital break-ups between Greek Men and American Women is something in the 90 percentile range, where the other way around (Greek Women and American Men) is almost nil.

If you have even an inkling that you don't know this man well enough, take that as a sign to go slowly and make sure he is what he seems to be. I was shocked to find that my "wasband" expected me to be the traditional cook, cleaner, housekeeper, and mother...and he was shocked to find that wasn't going to be the case, as I couldn't at that time in my life, tell a frying pan from a spatula and didn't especially want to (nor did I want children which was almost inconceivable to most Greeks). There was intense pressure from his family for me to conform to type as well, and if in the end we hadn't hashed it out as friends (something that is as foreign a notion to many Greek men as the notion that perhaps Greece did NOT give "the light of civisation to the world") the relationship would have ended within weeks. In our case, we decided to explore our strengths and weaknesses (HAH! TRY to get a Greek man to ADMIT to any weaknesses!) and we managed to come through the fires in most interesting ways.(It turned out he was an AMAZING COOK and loved doing it as well, thank the gods) and as I said in a previous posting we worked together 24 hours a day well and fruitfully for many years.

BUT please let me emphasise this, there can be EXTREME differences between cultures that can absolutely make a difference on whether a relationship will thrive or not. I do find that taking the man out of his country is often a way to break through some of the most entrenched cultural ties, but in the end, time will be what tells you the truth here...xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,Mr Red in disguise
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 09:34 AM

Well this thread proves what we know from pop songs and a huge body of folk songs.

He, she, requited, unrequited but it is mostly - SEX - that sells.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 09:27 AM

Well-put, Allan, I agree with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 09:06 AM

Self help books leave me cold. They are the authors interpretation of the right way to do things. Does anybody REALLY think that means it is the right way for everybody. They appeal to people who are at a low ebb and as someone pointed out above, are a licence to print money.

How many of the people who have bought that book are in happy fulfilling relationships? I'd say not many. How many of those people in happy fulfilling relationships have arrived at them because of that book. I'd say again not many.Just because you have found an author in tune with your way of viewing things does not mean they are right for everyone, just you and the author.

We all have different sex drives, hormonal levels and ideas of what is sexually satisfying. One of the reasons for so many relationship breakdowns. There is no definitive answer. Do what feels right for you. Your six months is someone elses six days. You are both right.

Shred the book and rely on your intuition.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Allan C.
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 08:58 AM

I didn't miss the point at all. What I am saying is that it is a lame one that is poorly substantiated. "You just can't separate sexuality into parts without creating pain." That's like saying you cannot possibly enjoy a great meal without contemplating the physiological effects of the nutrients you absorb from it. Yes, you can. You can also enjoy sex very much without any regard whatsoever for whether or for how it might effect your soul, before, after or during. The pain the author refers to exsists only if it is invited. The author appears to believe that some level of guilt is forever looming in the background. I do not adhere to that concept at all.

"Perhaps on the surface we can act as if we do not need the deeper, inner meaning of sexual intercourse." Well, yes and no. Yes we can completely enjoy a sexual connection with another without further consequence. I do believe that there is recreational sex that is simple and pure unto itself. However, do we, in the long run, "need the deeper, inner meaning"? Yes. I think most of us eventually arrive at a time in our lives when we are ready to accept that aspect and its connection to true love.

Yes, I do think it was entirely possible for the woman in the example to have been able to bring only her body to bed. At it turned out, she was not there just for recreational purposes; but I maintain that she could have been. The author chose the example of an emotionally entangled woman just to bolster his weak point.

I know what I have said here might sound as though I, personally, am a complete gadabout and advocate the same. This is far from the actuality. I am merely arguing philosophies here.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: freda underhill
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 07:26 AM

you said it, Kendall. I was thinking something like that when I read harvey's post, about let the juice run where it may..

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: kendall
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 07:24 AM

It's generally true that young men don't give much thought to the consequences of sex. Pregnancy is only a vague possibility, and, as Ted Kennedy said to Mary Jo, "We'll cross that bridge when we come to it."

There is an old Maine proverb that covers this, it says, "A stiff prick has no concience."

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: harvey andrews
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 07:02 AM

Dear me, but these therapists and "self-help" book writers have a lot to answer for. If you want to see the difference between the sexes personified go to any bookshop and count the shelves of books with advice for women and note the number of females who browse them. Then look for the male equivilant!
Then go and write your own. It's a licence to print money as Kendall so astutely observed.
My advice is, throw away the books and LIVE LIFE! What do any of these gurus know that you don't know yourself. It's just another industry angled to get the money from your pockets.
I think it was Stan Rogers who said that living life should be like eating a melon over a sink. Not a pretty metaphor but one I ascribe to wholeheartedly. Forget the rules, bite life, and let the juice run where it may.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,Bothered and Bewildered
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 06:56 AM

Precisely, Ellenpoly ! You have understood exactly what I have been saying and what the author I quoted was saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 05:56 AM

Amos(&Dave Barry)-LOL!!!! Also, Kendall, I loved your comments as well. This has turned into a really interesting and revealing thread, hasn't it? Deckman, you KNOW I agree with you about cats!

What I kept going back to while reading these postings is how B&B was approaching this thing, and from what I can tell, it is from a thoughtful and emotional place. You want, I think, to wait for the person who fits. I say good luck to you, and he may indeed be out there right around your next corner.

As a woman, (it does make a difference, because both genders have been manipulated, some say from pre-birth, to adjust to a range of steriotypes) who was cursed/blessed with a modicum of good looks, I was aware from an early age just how much that factor was going to play into my life...and what choices I'd have to make as to how much I wanted to manipulate it. For a long while I didn't. I was the perverbial "tomboy", climbing trees, kicking boys, and generally trying to steer clear of the "let's play house" set. When I found out that on occasion I was getting miffed at some guy because he was responding to me as "one of the guys", I would whip off my glasses, comb my hair, and put on a dress. The reaction was so intense in it's difference that I knew I was playing with some primal fire.

Almost before we have a name for it, we are having to deal with our sexuality. It's now being literally crammed down our throats via the media as well. Children as young as 8 and 9 are being targeted for products to sexually allure. Of course, some can argue that this isn't new, and there are many cultures that begin arranging marriages at an even earlier age. But that's something else, though yes, culture can play a large part in what happens between us as we grow into the dating/mating game.

I can't remember feeling prepared for any of this. By the time a "talk" might have occurred between my mother and I, it was waaay past what I'd already received of my own sexual education via discussions in the playground and library books feverently read behind the back shelves.I knew the "facts", but honey, NO ONE could have prepared me for the reality!

Throughout my life I've had relationships both sexual and non. The sexual ones have always been more complex. Even in the days before AIDs and STDs were as rampant as they are now, women had to deal with one primary difference from our male cohorts...we could get pregnant. I knew that fact scared the bejiggers out of me, and yet still, time and again, I was face to face-or body to body, with some guy who was ready to ride the waves in a hot second, with little understanding of how easy it was for us woman to be washed under quickly only to come up to the surface preggers.

Does that change everything for most of us? I'd say it does, even with the best "protection" available. We've have to think about this every time, and men just don't.

Aside from the ramifications of what the sexual act can produce in the way of an embryo, there are also the emotional pressures of just saying "no". It's HARD to do that, especially since we do think about that word as a rejection..that's how it feels to us when it comes our way...how could it not feel the same to someone we like and usually go home and fantasise about? So again (just like in Amos' scenario) we are always playing out what the reactions will be, and for a lot of us, it's just easier to give in to the moment of persistance coming our way. That we feel badly about it afterwards is something we often learn to subjegate, though it does affect our psychies. How could it not? Someone was INSIDE of us!

The intimacy of the sexual act is something implied for a lot of women. Some have the ability to have "sex friends"...in all honesty, I've gone that route more than once. It does little more than scratch the itch, and then one is left with knowing that we've shared our bodies without our souls, as you pointed out, B&B. It's not very satisfying, and in the end, I think it was a poor compromise every time.

The problem is...waiting for what we want. I married my complete opposite, and we rubbed and rubbed ourselves raw (in the LH sense) and actually came closer to being who we felt more comfortable being, both for ourselves and each other. It was very very difficult, and in the end, we loved each other a lot more, and STILL couldn't live together.

Funny thing is that all the respect and love and trust that we can invest into a relationship will not confirm it's longevity. TIMING is also an enormously important factor. So on top of all the other trials and tribs we go through to get there, if we don't both hit at the right time we may still deflect away from each other! OY!

So in the end, well, as I said in an earlier posting, you can keep looking (or non-look in a freda underhill/Buddhist kind of way), which has it's great merits) or "Marry Yourself" which sounds hokier than I mean it to. But I do think that without the latter, you won't be nearly as prepared for the time, whenever that time might come-for the former..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,Bothered and Bewildered
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 04:26 AM

Allan, from your post I can see that you haven't understood what the writer of that book is saying. He is saying that there isn't any choice in the matter. A person can tell themselves all they like that their soul/spirit is not, and was not, involved in lovemaking, or that "connection on any other level is not vitally necessary." Yes, they can have the 'absolutely wild orgasms' and all the rest of it. But, as long as we are living, breathing, human beings, the soul is connected to the body just as much the foot is connected to the ankle bone (an' all dem other bones).

The connection is vitally necessary in the very real sense of the word vital ! If the 'you' part of you ain't connected to the 'body' part of you, you are not a live body any more, just that bunch of dry bones !

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,Middle Aged Man
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 12:37 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 11:13 PM

Well gol danged! What we got going here? The Mudcat Dating game, 'er what? Don't answer that...

Hmmmmm? Relationships between "mature" folks? Now here is a real crap shoot 'cause by the time that folks decide they are mature adults they are also gettin' purdy danged stuck in their "mature adult" ways. I mean, ahhhh, they is some purdy danged quirky folks!....

This ain't 'bout sex 'er nuthin' 'cause by this "mature adult" stage of our lives we know, or should know, lots 'bout that subject...

But quirks? Whew... I mean just look around this joint. You see any normal people? I rest my case...

But it ain't totally hopeless if ya got two folks whose love can get them to do what younger folks do so easily: listen and compromise! That's the secret. And make a deal from the outset that if there is any one issue that either of you feel "balls to the wall" about that the other will "capitulate", unless of course, it's like wanting to have sex with their X, with you watching... That's out of the question....

But..... listen and compromise....

The rest will take care of itself.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Peace
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 10:51 PM

To all you women out there: I like cats.






Delicious.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 10:16 PM

MAG tells me it (the story about Elaine and Roger, not sexual intercourse) originated with Dave Barry, which I never knew. If so, due credit be given -- he's brilliant.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Deckman
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 10:09 PM

Kendall ... Being a married man, I did NOT feel it was appropriate that I comment on this thread. However, you just said something that I have to AGREE with ... "Find out how he feels about cats." You are so very right. Whoever the "HE" or "SHE" is, if they are not comfortable with cats ... LOOK OUT! That can be a very telling clue! Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Allan C.
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 10:03 PM

Sorry, B&B but what the author says is equivalent to what one well known TV sex therapist says about orgasm. She says it is completely impossible without fantasy. I bristle every time I hear it. She is so utterly wrong. I know that it is so very possible to become so lost in the moment that fantasy of any sort is neither possible nor necessary.

I think the same sort of thing is true with regard to separating the spiritual connection from sexual intercourse. Absolutely wild orgasms are totally possible without that connection. All both parties really need is a very strong and mutual desire to pleasure one another. Connection on any other level is not vitally necessary.

In the immortal words of Tina Turner, "What's Love Got To Do With It?" Well, actually there is a connection. Read on.

On the other hand, I would be first in line to agree that having that spiritual connection adds immeasurably to the experience. I just think the author has the whole concept turned inside out and sideways - as we are fond of saying in the south.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: kendall
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 09:54 PM

I had a woman friend who was much younger than I, and one day she asked me if I had any idea why she couldn't maintain a relationship. (She went from one asshole to another). I gave her this advice. "Stop screwing around with boys and find yourself a man." Shortly afterwards, she took up with a guy 10 years her senior, and they have been married for about 20 years now.

Another piece of advice I have given my three daughters and numerous youmg women: If you are attracted to a man, make sure he doesn't try to make you dress as he wants you to.Find out as soon as you can how he feels about cats. If he hates cats, run like a bandit, he is a control freak. Watch how he treats his mother and waitresses, because that is how he will treat you sooner or later.

The number one thing to look for in a man is respect. If he does not respect you before you get involved, he sure as hell wont respect you afterwards.

People make two major mistakes in relationships'
1. A woman sees the flaws in her prospective mate, but, she deludes herself into thinking, "Thats ok, I'll change him." BS!!

A man sees this lovely young firm body and thinks she will always be young and pretty. BS!! Time, gravity and children will have something to say about that.

Now, when the passion cools off, which it must, and the wrinkles start to show, you better have something besides horny to fall back on. And, the only firm foundation is Respect and genuine friendship.

That will be $100.00 please.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,Bothered and Bewildered
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 09:38 PM

Allan, I agree with you - nothing philosophical would be in my mind at that moment, either ! What that quote is saying is what is happening (invisibly) in the (invisible) soul/spirit aspect of a person's make-up as they make love. This is not on a thought level.

Here are a couple more quotes from that book, which will hopefully clarify this:

"People who decide to have sexual intercourse without also having mutual commitment to whole-life union are actually choosing against their own wholeness by dividing their sexuality into separate parts. They are doing one thing with their bodies and another with their spirits. Such a decision is a choice to bring pain upon themselves. You just can't separate sexuality into parts without creating pain. When people seek to enjoy the physical pleasures of sexuality without the spiritual pleasures, they will find in time that the physical sexual experience becomes empty and hurtful."

"Perhaps on the surface we can act as if we do not need the deeper, inner meaning of sexual intercourse. But it is not very easy to just have intercourse with our bodies. Somehow our bodies seem to be inextricably connected to our souls. And our souls demand interpretation of our actions in meaningful terms.

Our natures give us a message about our sexuality. It is both spirit and body, and we cannot separate the two. We cannot take our bodies to bed with someone and park our souls outside in the car to wait. We may try to do so, but in the end it is impossible.

I remember counselling a married woman who had had an affair. She was very cold and unemotional as she told me about it. It had not meant anything at all, she declared. She had been silly to do such a thing. And after all, she said, 'All I gave him was my body.'

In the conversation that followed, I pressed her to back up that statement. Eventually, she was in tears as she admitted that her soul had been very much involved during intercourse with the man. She had hoped that he would love her, wanted him to care about her in a lasting way, wanted him to share her heart. It had proved to be a relationship without a future, and her heart was filled with disappointment, guilt, and shame. How could she feel those things if all she had given him was her body ? In reality she had given him more. It is impossible to have intercourse and bring only one's body to bed. It is impossible because of the way we are made."

* * *
On a different note - I loved your story, Amos. So true, so true !

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Allan C.
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 08:39 PM

That's a beautiful quotation, B&B. Philosophically, it says it all. But I've gotta tell you that NOTHING philosophical would be in my mind at that moment and I sincerely doubt I am particularly exceptional in this regard. . . . But it is beautiful.

I might ponder it briefly while playing raquetball;-}

(Thanks, Amos! That really does sum it up rather well for the most part. But I will admit that I do analize things a lot more than Roger.)

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 08:28 PM

I've always liked it when someone writes that a woman takes a man into her body, rather than the man enters the woman, who is open. It makes the woman's role more active, less passive. I believe that both phrases are correct, however.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,Bothered and Bewildered
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 08:22 PM

I am so glad I started this thread - it has developed into such an interesting discussion, and clearly something that a lot of people here want to talk about and have some very thought-provoking things to say. Thank you, all!

To get the specific situation out of the way, that prompted me to write in the first place: 'Guest' of 01.40 PM: I am sure you are right that when each of the people concerned comes from a different cultural background, the issue of different expectations in behaviour and intentions, and the difficulties in communicating them clearly, can be heightened markedly. I don't know what your therapist would make of this, Little Hawk, but all my life, whether single or married, I have been a target for highly persuasive exotic foreign men :) They home in on me in the most unlikely places and situations.

From reading everyone's comments, and from my own brief experiences so far, entering into new relationships later in life presents rather different difficulties from the ones we encountered as teens and twentysomethings. I agree with you, Freda, when you said: "People become more of themselves, more uniquely different, as we move through the decades." It reminded me of a quote I once read, in the same vein: "As you get older, you remain exactly the same, only more so." I have also found that in growing older, and having spent some years on my own now, I know that happiness isn't "out there" somewhere, it is only to be found within myself, as you said, Little Hawk. Having this inner strength and confidence is going to inform the choices that an older person makes about relationships and the speed and direction they take.

There have been some very varied reactions to my saying: "I think it's wise for people to know each other for at least 6 months before they go to bed together." I wasn't setting a rule, I just said it was wise. I certainly wouldn't want to just hold hands for a whole six months, either ;) The key factor here for me is an increasing trust, which just cannot happen overnight, between people; body, mind, spirit being revealed and offered in parallel, gradual, developing stages.

I think it is very sad when people miss out on exploring and understanding the spiritual aspects and symbolism of sexuality. Without it, everything in a relationship is liable to be out of sync and prone to confusion, misunderstanding and hurt emotions. I know that from mistakes I made when I was younger. Here is a quote from a book, 'Single Again' by Thomas Jones:

"One person, the man, physically enters the body of the other, the woman. There is in that entrance a symbol of what ought to be happening in his spirit at the same time. He ought to be saying to her, 'I am willing to enter into your life, into your whole life. I want to come into who and what you are. I want to discover you in every way. I want to know you. As I discover you, I will love you and accept you. I will not reject what I find that you are. I will care for you, understand you, and always honor you. I will dwell lovingly within your life.' On the other side of the illustration, think of the symbolism of the woman's act of intercourse. She actually opens her body to the man's entrance. She ought to be saying, 'My spirit is also open to you. You may come into my whole life. I will keep no secrets from you. What I truly am I will permit you to know, to touch. I will trust you wholly with my inner self. You are welcome here inside my life."

I find those words beautiful. I certainly couldn't say them verbally to anyone having known them for a matter of weeks, so I would not want to "say" them with my body to anyone in that space of time, either.

I will be interested to see what people here think of that quote. Thank you all again for such interesting comments.