BS: attempt mass murder Christmas

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 02:49 AM

The analogy to the Vietnamese is valid here, because we were told all of the same things about them that we are being told about the extremist Muslims. We were told that they were the frontier of the efforts of the communists to take over the world. We were told that if we didn't fight them, they would succeed in taking over the world and we would all become communists and speak Vietnamese or Chinese. It's the exact same thing as what we are being told about the extremist Muslims, just with a different boogey man this time, and the religion being Islam instead of communism.

We were told that if we weren't victorious in Vietnam, they would follow us here to the US and we would have to fight them here. When we left Vietnam in defeat, they didn't do that, did they? No they didn't.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 02:35 AM

CarolC - I think you are confusing two discourses. It is true there are nationalistic Muslims who object to western presence in their countries — these are the analogues to the Redcoats, the Raj, the French in Vietnam whom you adduce in your aid.

But there is a separate, small but unavoidably upfront & prominent, hardcore, of which this Nigerian was a part, & who were responsible for 9/11 in USA, 7/7 & 21/7 in UK. the Madrid bombing &c, whose motivations are not nationalistic — they don't even claim them to be, but are quite candid about the fact that they are purely religious: based solely on the Koranic injunctions to Jihad and the Universal Caliphate.

How much support they may have from Islam in general is disputed: there are no doubt many 'mainstream' Muslims who are against them & others for, but how is one to tell in what proportions? But the point is, that it is these, and not the nationalistically motivated ones with whom you, CarolC, appear primarily concerned, that we must be aware of and turn all our attentions to frustrating. Your analogies about Redcoats, Raj, Vietnam have no validity here.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 01:05 AM

...are the people in India still fighting the British? Are the Vietnamese still fighting the French or the US?

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 12:58 AM

Are the colonials in the US still fighting the Redcoats, beardedbruce?

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: GUEST,999
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 12:30 AM

Bungling anti-terror chiefs were warned five months ago that an al-


'Qaeda cell in Yemen was plotting a deadly attack using "The Nigerian".

August's alert to America's National Security Agency was one of two pieces of evidence that should have prevented the Christmas Day bombing attempt aboard Northwest Airlines Flight 253 to Detroit.

A tip to the CIA was the second vital clue.

It came last month from the father of Nigerian Umar Abdulmutallab, who told them his son was missing in Yemen and could be associating with al-Qaeda.

Yet the US intelligence agencies failed to share the information - to put the attack alert and the name of the terrorist together - and no action was taken.

As a result, when Abdulmutallab went to Amsterdam's Schiphol Airport he was able to fly on Flight 253 with a valid US visa.

The fanatic failed to detonate explosives hidden in his underwear. Had he succeeded nearly 300 lives would have been lost.

Amid the fury following the failed terror attempt US security chiefs today report back to President Barack Obama, who yesterday said: "We need to act quickly to fix flaws."

The CIA's George Little said of Abdulmutallab: "We learned of him in November when his father came to the US Embassy in Nigeria and sought help in finding him.

"We did not have his name before then."

But terror expert Richard Clarke said: "The intelligence community seems to have failed here.

"When they got information someone was planning an attack, that should have become priority number one - go out and find any shred of information related to a Nigerian in Yemen."

It also emerged yesterday that a man tried last month to board a plane in Mogadishu, Somalia, carrying chemicals, liquid and a syringe, just like Abdulmutallab.

The unnamed Somali man was arrested by police before the Daallo Airlines flight to Dubai on November 13 took off.

Somali police spokesman Abdulahi Barise said: "We don't know whether he is linked with al-Qaeda but his actions were the acts of a terrorist. We caught him red-handed."

Us agents were yesterday investigating whether Abdulmutallab, 23, may have copied his method from an al-Qaeda suicide bomber who tried to kill a Saudi prince.

Abdullah Hassan al-Asiri, 23, blew himself up in front of Prince Mohammed bin Nayef four months ago - but the Saudi counterterrorism chief survived.

Al-Asiri is also believed to have trained with regional terror cell al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsular in Yemen this year and to have smuggled explosive powder through airport security in his underwear.

Yemeni security forces yesterday stormed a terror hideout in Hudaydah province and pledged to eliminate the AQAP cell.

Gordon Brown vowed yesterday security will be a "key priority" in the next decade.'

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 08:56 PM

Since it has not yet happened, I guess I can claim you are lying about it.


WHEN it does happen, it will be a fact- UNTIL then, it cannot be called a fact, but a speculation.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 08:47 PM

No, I think it's pretty much a fact.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: robomatic
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 07:46 PM

Western imperialism is the lifeblood of radical Islam. End the imperialism and radical Islam will largely die off from lack of nourishment.


This is, of course, speculation on your part.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 01:52 PM

Western imperialism is the lifeblood of radical Islam. End the imperialism and radical Islam will largely die off from lack of nourishment.


I think that 4% of the highly educated intellectual elite of Muslims in this country believing that is a shockingly high percentage, and do not believe any other group here would be comparable.

This is, of course, speculation on your part.


I think it is complacent to underestimate the threat these fanatics present.

If you're concerned about the threat they represent, it would seem to be wise to stop creating more of them.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 01:13 PM

Re appeasement, I just meant that it is unlikely that radical Islam would cease to be radical just because of any changes in foreign policy. They fight for a global caliphate.
Re 4 per cent said killing could be justified to "promote or preserve" religion.
I think that 4% of the highly educated intellectual elite of Muslims in this country believing that is a shockingly high percentage, and do not believe any other group here would be comparable.
I think it is complacent to underestimate the threat these fanatics present.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 12:29 PM

Of these, 4 per cent said killing could be justified to "promote or preserve" religion, while 28 per cent said it was acceptable if that religion were under attack.

Four percent is a very small percentage. I bet if a survey were taken among other religions, a similar percentage would be found. As for the 28 percent, their religion is under attack, and that's causing more and more Muslims to become radicalized who were not before. There are more than a billion Muslims in the world. Every time we drop a bomb on Muslims, we create many, many new extremists. Anyone who thinks they can get rid of extremism among Muslims this way is just plain stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 12:11 PM

Ending imperialism is not the same thing as appeasement. In this particular scenario, we are the people taking the role that Hitler took in the 20th century (I'm not saying we're as bad as Hitler - I'm saying we, the US, are the aggressor country in this context). People have a right to stand up to aggression. If we stop being the aggressor country, people will stop responding to our aggression.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 11:46 AM

"In the name of religion" is a form of words that can mean digerent things to different people. "In defence of our religion" might be a better way of phrasing it.

In which case examples are hardly difficult to find, even in the present or recent times. Religion as such isn't the only factor in conflicts in, for example, former Yugoslavia, Ireland, Israel, but it's a very important element.   Bombing of abortion clinics is seen by those responsible as an expression of religious conviction. Indeed much of the support for capital punishhment in the USA appears to have a religious or quasi-religious basis.

At the same time religious principles can also be the basis on which principled opposition to war and violence is built. But those who see it that way appear to be a minority among Christians and Jews as well as Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 11:01 AM

It seems likely that a fairly high proportion of Christians and Jews would feel that in certain circumstances killing "in the name of religion" could be justified.

Are you sure?
We see no evidence of them actually doing it, do we?

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 09:45 AM

Ahhhh, where to let the extremists fight it out... Last time I looked there are millions of acres of dessert... Heck, I think the rest of us could even chip in to buy them plenty of things that go "bang", water and food to keep 'um killin' one another... Maybe we could do a foriegn excahnge??? You know, have some of the our extremistssent over to the middle east and some of Osama's boys come on over here... That way, everyone wins...

Tickets??? Heck, yeah... The money could go toward keeping the extremit's in food and bullets...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 09:38 AM

There have been enough religious conflicts over the centuries , including the present one. It seems likely that a fairly high proportion of Christians and Jews would feel that in certain circumstances killing "in the name of religion" could be justified.

It has not gone unnoticed by Muslims that Bush used then term "crusade" to refer to his "war on terror".

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 09:33 AM

...just counting UNIVERSTY students...

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 09:29 AM

As I said, most are good, tolerant people, but those are sizeable minorities.
"a third back the notion of a worldwide Islamic caliphate (state) based on sharia law"
That is 30 000 British muslims, just counting students alone, who want to see our liberal and democratic institutions overturned.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: Paul Burke
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 09:04 AM

So:

60 per cent oppose the introduction of sharia into British law for Muslims
Two thirds oppose the notion of a worldwide Islamic caliphate (state) based on sharia law
60 per feel it is acceptable for Muslim men and women to mix freely
76 per cent think men and women are equal in the eyes of Allah
Three quarters have much or great respect for homosexuals.

Could be better, but pretty healthy all the same!

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 07:43 AM

Cariol, i know most moslems just want to live their lives in peace, but in a survey of Moslem students at 12 UK universities it was found that

40 per cent support the introduction of sharia into British law for Muslims
a third back the notion of a worldwide Islamic caliphate (state) based on sharia law
40 per feel it is unacceptable for Muslim men and women to mix freely
24 per cent do not think men and women are equal in the eyes of Allah
a quarter have little or no respect for homosexuals.
Although 53 per cent said that killing in the name of religion was never justified, compared with 94 per cent of non-Muslims, 32 per cent said that it was. Of these, 4 per cent said killing could be justified to "promote or preserve" religion, while 28 per cent said it was acceptable if that religion were under attack.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/2461830/Killing-for-religion-is-justified-say-third-of-Muslim-students.html

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 07:41 AM

Fashions in fanaticism have a limited life span. Misjudged and panicky responses, tied in to considerations of public relations and domestic politics can extend that life span.

Treating criminal activities as "a war on terror" has very likely had the effect of extending the ability of Al Qaeda to continue to operate effectively.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 07:33 AM

This twat should never have got through security.
The liquid bomb plotters would have got through, and would have killed thousands in a single day.
They were thwarted by intelligence. They will have learned from the defeat and made their communications more secure.
Given time they will improve their attacks and acquire better technology.
Eventually they will get nuclear devices.
Nothing we can do will make them decommission and live in peace with the infidel.
They will go on until they are somehow stopped.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 06:30 AM

I don't mean they aren't able to cause a lot of trouble, but in terms of international conflict even 911 was small scale. (Compare the scale of deaths caused in even a relatively minor war.)

Dealing with it is a matter of responding to criminal activity, not war, except where we make war as our way of responding.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 06:17 AM

There is a significant difference of scale between a major military power with massive resources and a bunch of fanatics with box-cutters and exploding underpants.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: GUEST,keith a
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 05:18 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8433178.stm

There you go Mike.
How have you avoided this stuff.
When Hitler was marching in to neighbouring countries, many appeasers then said there were far more pressing concerns to worry about nearer home.
People then were dying for lack of health care and being run over.

Of course air security should be improved, but when they can no longer get through they will change targets to mass transport etc. and always looking for a mass spectacular.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: open mike
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 03:39 AM

Please..can someone post a link to the original news about this?
I do not see a reference to a factual report of the incident.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 10:39 PM

"As far as I'm concerned we oughtta round up all the Christain Right and their redneck peons "


Gee, do you make them sew little teabags on their clothing before you march them off to the camps?? And give them "showers"?

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 10:34 PM

Remember we are all far far more likely to be killed in a road accident than by a suicide bomber.

And about 48 million of us in the US are far more likely to die because of lack of access to health care than by any terrorists - 45,000 of us do die each year for that reason. That's the equivalent of fifteen 9/11 type events every year.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: GUEST,999
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 10:25 PM

pdq, did he or did he not point with his gun?

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: pdq
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 10:22 PM

"Where would you suggest this might take place?"

Highway 61?

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 10:12 PM

==Don't forget - "You'll never get out of this world alive=== Or, as my wife used to put it McG, "Life is a sexually transmitted condition with a 100% mortality rate".

==As far as I'm concerned we oughtta round up all the Christain Right and their redneck peons and send them off to fight with their Islamic counterparts==

Great idea, Bobert. Where would you suggest this might take place? Any chance of selling tickets?

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 06:11 PM

Well, one thing is for sure... The world's populations are threatened by right winged extremists, be they al Qeada, the Taliban or the Chrostain Right... These are the people who love war... As far as I'm concerned we oughtta round up all the Christain Right and their redneck peons and send them off to fight with their Islamic counterparts and leave the rest of us the heck alone...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 05:06 PM

It seems pretty clear that the immediate cause for this near tragedy was that there was a clear failure of the people in charge of security to act responsibly and intelligently.

That's what needs to be addressed urgently. No point in going off into a panic spiral about all the things that haven't happened and might someday happen but very probably won't.

Remember we are all far far more likely to be killed in a road accident than by a suicide bomber. That doesn't make us all stay home to eliminate the risk, we do what we can to reduce it, but accept that there is always a risk in anything we do in this world. And if we did stay home to avoid it, that'd increase our risk of an accident in the home, which is where most of them do happen anyway.

Don't forget - "You'll never get out of this world alive".

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 01:47 PM

No, that's true. But there are dangerous crazies all over the world who, even if they're not Muslims, find some excuse for doing what they do. Take the people who bomb abortion clinics in the US, for instance. That doesn't mean we can continue to wage our empire in other peoples' countries without suffering massive consequences, though, because we can't.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: pdq
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 01:41 PM

"...he's just a lost soul who wanted some attention and fame, and was found to be an easy mark for al Qaeda"

First, that fact is obvious.

Second, it does not make this fool one bit less dangerous

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 01:21 PM

Keith, most Muslims just want to live their lives in peace just like most of the rest of the people in the world. al Qaeda uses the imperialism and human rights abuses of the Western world as their main recruiting tool. Even bin Laden was very clear that his actions were a response to Western imperialism in Muslim lands. Regardless of whether or not they couch their rhetoric in religious terms, it is nevertheless a response to Western imperialism in Muslim lands. They see waging a holy war for a Muslim caliphate as the only way to get the Western imperialists out of their lands and out of their hair. I think they have a point.

I don't think the would-be-bomber was motivated by a desire to get Republicans back in power, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least if people with a Republican agenda made it easy for the would-be-bomber to get on that plane under the circumstances.

Personally, based on what I've heard about this guy, I think he's just a lost soul who wanted some attention and fame, and was found to be an easy mark for al Qaeda.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 01:14 PM

If tiny amounts of radiation don't make a difference, where do "spontaneous" mutations come from?

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 12:58 PM

Such miniscule doses have nothing to do with what is being discussed.
Look at the poor kids in the Chernobyl link.
We had pastures here in UK, thousands of miles away, that could not be used for years.
You would not want to be close or downwind of a dirty bomb, even though you may feel no ill effects atthe time.
Depleted uranium can be handled without any protection.You should certainly avoid breathing the dust, but the nuclides in a dirty bomb would be really nasty.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: GUEST,mark-s(on the road)
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 10:00 AM

And if you sleep with a spouse or significant other, your whole body dose of radiation is about 1 millirem (using the old measure) higher than it would be if you sleep alone.
Due to the radioactive isotope of potassium (K40) component of human blood.
Hmmmmm    Better rethink those orgys!

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 09:34 AM

Ah, folks, you are exposed to radioactive dust every day of your lives and always have been no matter how old you are. The wind and rain and other natural forces wear away the rocks, which become dust and soil and sand. These carried radioactive minerals in them and release radon gas.

By the way -- got granite countertops? If you do you're exposing yourself and your friend and family to more radon than necessary. Check it out.

You cannot escape radioactivity. Alpha, beta, gamma, and other rays penetrate you every second, before you or even you great-great-great-great-great grandparents were a gleam in their parents' eyes. You were exposed before, during, and after you conception and you're exposed now.

No, I'm not excusing Chernobyl or other unnecessary risks. But don't go thinking radioactivity doesn't affect or effect anyone else.

And this will continue even after the sun goes out and the Earth is nothing, for radioactivity pervades the Universe.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 06:59 AM

Carol, his words.
I imagine how the great jihad will take place, how the Muslims will win (Allah willing) and rule the whole world, and establish the greatest empire once again.

Imperialist Carol?

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 06:37 AM

Carol, how can you be sure their motivations are not just religious?
Carol, are you suggesting he scorched his crotch to help the Repubs?
Are Repubs that fanatical?

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: GUEST,bankley
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 06:22 AM

seems to me that radioactive dust has already en'gulfed' a lot of places.

ever hear of depleted uranium ? nasty stuff

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 04:09 AM

I have a mental picture of that old man being Karl Rove. This smells to me like a psy-op to get the Neocons back in power.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 04:05 AM

There have been horrific attacks on India and on Shias in Pakistan.
They were targetted for not being Sunni Muslims.
If that is why they hate us, appeasing them will not make them like us.
They will see it as contemptible weakness and a sure sign of their ultimate victory.

This makes no sense whatever. Their motivations for their actions towards India and the Shia in Pakistan are different than their motivations for their actions towards the US. Trying to link their motivations toward us to their motivations towards India and the Shia in Pakistan is a non-sequitur. It makes no sense, and the presence of their animus towards India and the Shia in Pakistan says nothing whatever about the nature of or reason for their animus towards the US.

And who cares whether or not they see anything as their ultimate victory? Are you willing to send good men and women to die just so you won't get your ego bruised?

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: Arnie
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 03:52 AM

I'm intrigued by the report that an older man tried to get the bomber onto the plane at Amsterdam without a passport. There is no way you can travel to the States without a passport - for starters it contains your US visa. Airlines are fined thousands of dollars if they inadvertantly allow someone to travel without a passort - it just doesn't happen any more. Also, this would simply draw attention to the bomber which obviously he could do without. No doubt there is a lot of conjecture and simply wrong information doing the rounds at present. Once a full investigation has been completed, hopefully a more complete and accurate account of this bomber's journey details will emerge. Security is only as strong as it's weakest link, and unfortunately human error seems to have crept in here, both in not dealing with the intelligence and in not completing physical checks thoroughly. I see that Obama has just publicly roasted his security services - quite right given the resources at their disposal.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: GUEST,999
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 03:26 AM

Given that the idiot who tried to blow up the plane has already agreed by his actions that capital punishment is ok, I hope that's what he receives.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 03:17 AM

Chernobyl children 2009
http://www.chernobyl.typepad.com/

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 03:08 AM

There have been horrific attacks on India and on Shias in Pakistan.
They were targetted for not being Sunni Muslims.
If that is why they hate us, appeasing them will not make them like us.
They will see it as contemptible weakness and a sure sign of their ultimate victory.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 03:05 AM

I met some Russian children in summer.
A work colleague has Chernobyl children for holidays.
Their health was destroyed by a radioactive dust cloud years before their birth.