BS: attempt mass murder Christmas

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 05:06 PM

A handful of the 159 million Christians in USA are so extreme anti abortionists that they can match sharia law in its intolerance.

What would happen to an abortion clinic in an Islamic Republic Carol?

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 03:49 PM

Re the example of the handful of extremists who attack abortion clinics, "choice" abortions are haram under sharia, and the penalty for doctor and patient is death.

Nevertheless, the murders of abortion workers in the US have been committed by Christians and not Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 03:47 PM

I cited also the fact that Muslims react more violently to perceived insults to their religion.

This is not something we can say with any certainty. For one thing, we can't attribute the backlash to the cartoons as being entirely a response to an insult to Islam or the Prophet. There are many socio-economic factors that also have to be taken into consideration. A big part of the backlash was a response to perceived discrimination against Muslims in that context, and it still is. Secondly, I have seen reports of other religions reacting violently to perceived insults to their religion. There are numerous cases of a violent backlash among extremist Jews because of perceived insults to the Jewish religion, as well as death threats and even the Jewish equivalent of a fatwah. And I have seen cases of Christians doing the same. Hindus have also committed numerous acts of violence against non-Hindus, and I don't think we can say with any certainty that none of them were a response to perceived insult to their religion. The only difference is that when these things are committed by groups other than Muslims, we just don't hear about it very often. Our media tend to put a lot more effort into publicizing violent acts by Muslims than they do into publicizing violent acts committed by other groups.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 03:47 PM

Re the example of the handful of extremists who attack abortion clinics, "choice" abortions are haram under sharia, and the penalty for doctor and patient is death.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 03:39 PM

Nevertheless, McGrath, the term "race" is widely accepted when used to refer to a broader range of groups than just Blacks, Asians, and Whites. Personally, I would not use it to refer to Mudcatters. But I do consider it racism when people discriminate against Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 03:36 PM

PDQ, you're citing examples in the US and Canada only for Christian terrorism, and you're using the whole world as your example for Muslim terrorism. That doesn't wash. Also, it's not just Christians and Muslims under consideration. There are Jewish terrorists, and Hindu terrorists, and Buddhist terrorists, and Atheistic terrorists, and terrorists from other religions and traditions as well as terrorists of no particular tradition/religion.

And we need to also consider the numbers of Muslims who have been killed by the armed forces and covert forces of self-professed "Judeo-Christian" countries, like the US, and at the behest of self-professed Christian leaders.

You're being very selective in the examples you're willing to recognize.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 01:56 PM

Nice one, MgGrath!!

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 01:48 PM

...a class or kind of people unified by shared interests.

I've never thought that Mudcatters could be termed "a race"...

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 01:43 PM

Carol, all I wanted to show by way of the survey was that although the great majority of Muslims are good peaceful people, there is a small but significant number who are not.

"Just under a third of Muslim students polled (32%) said killing in the name of religion can be justified – the majority of these said killing could be justified if the religion was under attack, and 4% of all respondents supported killing in order to promote and preserve that religion.
- 60% of active members of campus Islamic societies said killing in the name of religion can be justified. By contrast, only 2% of non-Muslims agreed."http://www.socialcohesion.co.uk/files/1231525079_2.pdf

I cited also the fact that Muslims react more violently to perceived insults to their religion.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: pdq
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 01:35 PM

Just for the record, there have been 6 deaths attributed to anti-abortion activists the US and Canada since 1977.

Three abortion doctors, two receptionists and one security guard.

A seventh man, a doctor, was shot to death in a burglery in Mobile, Alabama. His death is attributed to activists by some, but since burglery is not connected to other abortion clinic attacks, it is a matter of speculation.

Now, as far as Islamic radicals, last week they blew up a volleyball tournament in Pakistan: 75 innocent people killed.

In Iraq they bombed a market: 25 dead.

Today they launched rockets at the president of Pakistan. No one killed, but they tried.

There is no eqivalence here. Two of the US abortion killers were certified mental patients.

Also, there is no part of Christian scripture that calls for the murder of people who follow other religions. Christians are taught to respect others. Not so with Islam.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 01:25 PM

Aso, the study only included Muslims at UK universities. The results of that study can't be generalized to the entire Muslim population of the world. Nor could a study that only included students at UK universities belonging to other religions.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 01:17 PM

Keith, you simply don't know that. You have not produced any numbers from a similar study taken among people of other religions. You are speculating.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 01:04 PM

Carol, that 4% (3600)of UK University students believed it right to kill to "preserve or promote" Islam.
I am not impressed by your supposed examples of Christians killing to promote Christianity.
If there is a percentage, it is well below 4%and nearer 0%

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 12:53 PM

Possibly so, John. But hating people or feeling superior to them (or applying different standards to them than to one's own group) because of the group they belong to is no less destructive if the group is a religion than if it is because they have a different color of skin.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 12:43 PM

Surely then Carol, Webster`s definition of a race (shared interests) could refer to Manchester United supporters or any other football team`s followers. Or anglers, petrol heads, folk music enthusiasts, etc.etc.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 12:34 PM

(a) Islam is a religion & has followers from many different ethnic groups; accusations of 'racism' are thus not helpful or accurate


Actually, the term 'racism' can apply to members of any group, including religions:

b : a class or kind of people unified by shared interests, habits, or characteristics

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/race

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 12:31 PM

And Keith, there are Christians in the US who have killed in the name of their religion, and they remain a serious threat to people here in this country, and in other countries.

And some of the right wing Christian private contractors who have served in Iraq have openly admitted that they see our being in that country as a new crusade and they have said that part of their purpose in being over there is to kill as many Muslims as possible. These are people killing people for not being Christians.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 12:25 PM

Keith, you have provided a handful of very selective anecdotal examples and expect that to serve as proof of something. I'm sorry to have to inform you that such "evidence" does not prove anything at all.

And you said that 4 percent said they believe it would be ok to kill to protect or preserve their religion. You did not say they said they believe it would be ok to kill if their religion was insulted. The article about the study does not provide a figure for the percentage of students at UK universities who believe it is acceptable to kill if their religion is being insulted.

There have been cases in which Christians and also members of other religions have killed and/or threatened to kill people for insulting their religion. I expect that a survey of how many people of other religions believe that it is ok to kill for their religion has never been taken. So you can't use the absence of such a survey as proof that there wouldn't be similar numbers if one were to be taken.

As I said before, your assertion is pure speculation. In the absence of any hard figures it will never be anything but speculation.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: Smedley
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 12:11 PM

Keith, I'm not unaware of those examples.

But I am also aware of the Christian fanatics who bomb abortion clinics in the USA.

Different targets, same mindset.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 11:56 AM

Smedley, witness the cartoons in a newspaper read by no one outside Denmark.
Innocuous in comparison to the portrayal of Jesus in the Springer Opera.
Many died, and they still try to kill the artist.
And that is just one example.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 11:05 AM

I `ad that Mo`ammed in my cab the other day. `e looked like `e`d got all the troubles of the world on `is shoulders and `is turban was coming all un-done. `e`d just come back fom one of those big parties they `ave in Mecca with all the mullahs and muftis.
I said, "Where to, Mo?"
`e said, " Wootton Bassett to that march that my lot`s `olding. They`re wasting their time there. I wanna get `em all marching around Pakistan. The carnage them El Quaeda are doing out there makes the U.N. Coalition look like a Boy Scouts` outing!!"

Whaddam I Like??

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: Smedley
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 10:41 AM

Mohammed wasn't in the story, so who knows how the show's writers/directors might have depicted him ?

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 10:37 AM

Smedley, whatever the aims of the Springer Opera, Jesus was portrayed in a way that no one would dare portray Mohammed.
Does anyone deny that fundamental difference?

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: Smedley
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 10:15 AM

Also, the homosexual has done nothing wrong whereas the CIA person has done nothing right.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 10:07 AM

This entire struggle between the extremes is filled with "isms"... "Isms", ya see, are the cornerstone of terror... One extreme group feels threatned by another and brands that group an "ism" and then you have the push back from the other group with "counter-isms" and meanwhile everyone else get caught up in the crossfire...

This is exactly what we have going on now...

And Carol is 100% correct about the radical right in the US... It is a terrorist group that uses hate and fear as it's tools for recrutment... Sound familiar??? It should because that what we always hear and read about the Islamis extremists...

I mean, to a homosexual who is abducted, tied with a rope behind a pickup truck and draged down country roads to his death the terror is no less great than that of a CIA agent getting blown up... Might of fact, I think that the terror is probably greater to be pulled behind a truck then to just be blown up... Either way, it's terrorism carried out by the extreme right wing...

BTW, the Islamic torrorists are not lefties here... They, too, represent the right wing...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: Smedley
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 10:02 AM

Two points of clarification:

(a) Islam is a religion & has followers from many different ethnic groups; accusations of 'racism' are thus not helpful or accurate

(b) Jerry Springer The Opera satirised TV talk shows and fundamentalist extremism (of the Christian variety); it was not aimed at religion per se.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 09:54 AM

It is not the desire of all Muslims, as I keep saying.
There is a tiny minority, which in UK amounts to many thousand, who regard it as right and a duty to take life in the name of Islam.
That makes them very dangerous.
Other religions just do not have that murderous fringe.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 09:46 AM

When the mullahs of Iran placed a price on the head of Salman Rushdie,I remember Canadian Muslim leaders defending the action on national TV. I was rather appalled at the time that anyone could see merit in it, but one stated that it was the duty of the faithful to carry it out. However, I never believed that to be the desire of all Muslims. The problem as I see it is religious leaders of all faiths educating their followers with dogma that should have been thrown to the shitpile of history! Freedom of thought and expression of non-believers should not be suppressed for fear that challenging dogma may offend believers. That in turn is every bit as offensive to those being stifled!

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 06:34 AM

"I think that 4% of the highly educated intellectual elite of Muslims in this country believing that is a shockingly high percentage, and do not believe any other group here would be comparable.

This is, of course, speculation on your part."

Not entirely Carol
As a Christian I notice that Jesus and Christianity is often the butt of jokes on TV.
I accept that I have no right never to be offended.
Jerry Springer The Opera offended many Christians and there were large demonstrations here, especially when BBC put it out. It portrayed Christ in nappies and was very blaphemous.
But no one was killed or even threatened.
A cartoon of Mohammed with a bomb appeared in a Danish paper, and many were killed in worldwide riots. They are still trying to kill the artist years later.
Salman Rushdie still needs protection.
How can anyone doubt that Muslims are more violent than Christians or any other religion when their religion is perceived to be insulted.
http://www.christiantoday.com/article/record.christian.complaints.rejected.as.bbcs.springer.show.is.cleared/2839.htm

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 04:09 AM

Sounds good to me.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 04:05 AM

Carol - re 'weasel'

This standard-form reply, held in my word-processor memory, is the only response I propose to make to your recent post:—

It is my principle to make no further answer than this to merely abusive posts addressed to me

No further correspondence will be entered into.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 03:55 AM

& of course I meant Oklahoma - don't know what made me write 'Alabama'!: is there a football or baseball or basketball team called "Alabama bombers' or some such with whom I must have got mnemonically confused? We both meant Mr McVeigh anyhow, did we not?

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 03:54 AM

Well, if you can weasel like that, I guess I can too. I only said I was beginning to think your attitude towards Muslims is a tad racist. This is hardly the same thing as calling you a racist. At least not by the standards you are using about what words mean.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 03:46 AM

This followed, Carol, immediately on the series of questions I ref'd to above, so must surely be construed as being similarly interrogatve - part of the same discursive series. The words 'as you appear to be' seem to me to make the point speculative, predicated on the supposition that the answers to my questions might be affirmative; so the point was conditional (i.e. "if that is what you mean then it could perhaps be interpreted as") rather than putting any actual words in your mouth.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 03:36 AM

BTW, which Alabama bomber are you talking about? The bomber I referenced specifically committed his act in Oklahoma City.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 03:28 AM

I draw this to your attention, MtheGM, from your 01 Jan 10 - 11:44 PM post...

Forgive me if I say that it seems to me that, in saying as you appear to be, that it's all our problem not yours, and that it couldn't happen there becoz you have such happy Muslims that not a single one would dream of joining in

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 02:44 AM

==do you think every Muslim in USA would be so content with his lot that not a single one would rejoice or leap on the 'Caliphate-bandwagon?==

The words, Carol, that you accuse me of 'putting into your mouth' were in the above context, which it will be noted occurred in a question of mine, not in any supposed statement of yours. Who, I would simply ask therefore, is putting words into whose mouth?

I can find nothing I have said to imply that I think we should treat all Muslims with suspicion because of the activities of a minute but threatening number among them [often, as in this present instance indeed, no more than a single individual], any more than I imagine you to be anti-Christian or anti-science because of the professions of those you mentioned above as Christian·subversives, or of the Alabama Bomber, whom you, predictably but not altogether relevantly IMO, adduce — so I must once again express myself aggrieved at unjustified accusations of racism.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 02:09 AM

MtheGM you were the only one between the two of us who used words like "every Muslim" and "not a single Muslim", while I used the phrase "not a significant problem". If I were you, I wouldn't be depending on others to back you up on your claim to not be putting words in my mouth.

On the subject of racism, please correct me if I am wrong, but the message I am getting from your posts is that you think we should treat all Muslims as though they might be terrorists, even though you admit that only a small number of them actually are. If that is the case, then I stand by what I said about your attitude towards Muslims. If not, then I stand corrected.

I am no more in for any rude shocks because of Muslims than I am because of any other group with members residing in this country. We have extremists and terrorists here from many groups. Our second worst terrorist attack was committed by someone who was raised Catholic and who professed that science was his religion. He was of European ancestry, and had served in the US armed forces. He killed 168 people, including children who were in the building's day care center.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 01:18 AM

CarolC - answer to your last question first - no, of course not; but do at least be aware of their existence as a potential source of trouble.

I have not put a single 'word into your mouth'; every interpretation I have put on what you have said seems to me a reasonable one derived precisely from your own statements — I leave it to others to judge between us as to whether or not this is so.

Ah ha — I have been waiting agog to see how long it would take you to fling the word 'racist' as your get-out when you run out of rational arguments.

I am not racist as regards Muslims: but I am scared of 'Islamists', who are no more representative of all Muslims than the Christian·terrorists you refer to in your last paragraph are representative of all Christians. You know right well that it was only this minute but vocal, active and dangerous minority I was referring to, & not to Islam in general; so you would do well to avoid accusations of "racism", if you don't want to incur accusations of disingenuous, dishonest, pusillanimous, bad-faith defamation right back — & you know it's so, whatever you may pretend.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 12:49 AM

By the way, we have groups of Christians committing terrorist attacks in this country, and there are groups of Christians who have openly declared their intent to abolish our government, installing the church in its place. Shall we look askance at all Christians because of the actions of those groups of Christians?

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 12:17 AM

And it did not begin with 9/11.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 12:16 AM

MtheGM, your practice of putting words in my mouth does nothing to forward whatever argument you are trying to make.

I did not say that not a single Muslim in this country would participate in an act of terrorism against the US. I did say that we don't have any more significant problem with that than we do with our right wing wackos. We have had quite a few bombings and similar acts of terrorism in this country, only two of which were committed by Muslims, none of whom were permanent residents in this country.

And as I said, acts of terrorism are for the purpose of scaring people into doing what the terrorists want them to do. The people responsible for these acts have consistently said that they are for the purpose of ending US imperialism in Muslim countries. We are not having a problem here with Muslims trying to impose their religion on others. They are not trying to get Sharia law imposed on anyone here. They aren't even trying to get Sharia law allowed for Muslims.

Your notion that acts of terrorism could possibly have the effect of creating a global caliphate, or that the Islamists could possibly think such is one of the more absurd ideas that I can think of. I guess you think as soon as a bomb goes off in Manhattan, everyone here is going to immediately convert to Islam and beg Osama to come over and be our Imam. Or maybe you think that's what all of those dirty rag-heads think.

I'm beginning to think that your attitude towards Muslims is a tad racist.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 11:44 PM

CarolC - This all started with 9·11, remember; which happened there, not here or anywhere else but NY & DC. It is suspected the 9·11 bombers, on arrival, must have had some help from indigenous US Muslims, tho as all are dead there has been no way of establishing that. If those you refer to, here or elsewhere, began to show any glimmer of potential success with their 'Jihad', supposedly Koranically-enjoined, in establishing their 'Caliphate', do you think every Muslim in USA would be so content with his lot that not a single one would rejoice or leap on the 'Caliphate-bandwagon', Stateswide? Do you think that if a small group of our dissidents from Bradford or Luton came over there to have a go at another '9·11', they wouldn't be primed with a list of 'safe houses' of like-thinking US Muslims where they could go & put finishing touches to their plans becoz not a single US Muslim, being all so prosperous and content, would dream of joining in such a 'Universal·Caliphate' project? Remember that the point of such subversive activities as these needs only be very, very small: half-a-dozen like-minded Muslims in the whole of NYC would be plenty for their purposes - do you really think no such exists whatever?

Forgive me if I say that it seems to me that, in saying as you appear to be, that it's all our problem not yours, and that it couldn't happen there becoz you have such happy Muslims that not a single one would dream of joining in, you are being unbelievably complacent in the face of what is a real threat — to all of you over there as much as to anyone else in the world. I say again: persist in that thinking if you like; but I think you are in for a rude shock before too many days will have passed.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 05:29 PM

Bin Laden and his followers are using the paranoia of the western world meet their ends.
Think about this a bit:
If the pawn with the explosives in his pants had blown that plane out of the sky over Canada what would have been the result?
There would have been speculation that it may have been a terrorist bomb. There would have been an intense effort to recover debris and piece it together, inquiries and commissions would follow and after months or years it would be determined that it was probably a bomb. Instead the thing did not detonate so the knowledge and result was an immediate spiking of fear, shutting down or delaying air travel at the peak of the busiest season.
Remember that another dupe already used this tactic with the explosives in his shoe. That would not detonate either but it had every traveler removing shoes at airport security. I wonder if all did not go according to plan...................

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 02:29 PM

"told them his son... could be associating with Al-Queda".   Exact source, please.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 12:39 PM

MtheGM, while it may be true that the communist objectives were more location specific than we were led to believe, in my country, at least, our government saw a commie under every bush, and they even had congressional witch hunts to root them out. Many people were blacklisted and their lives and careers destroyed in the process. The communist boogey man didn't successfully infiltrate this country because the conditions weren't right for it here. People here were for the most part content with their lot. Just like with the Islamists. We don't have a significant problem with local Islamists (no more so than, for instance, right wing extremists, who are no less dangerous), because the Muslims who live in the US are pretty satisfied with their lives here. Your Islamists are less content with their lot in your country and you are experiencing a backlash for that reason. The Muslims here tend to be more well off than the average US citizen and have successfully blended in with the culture of this country (or their families have been here for centuries and they helped build the country).

The socio-economic conditions for the average Muslim in your country are very different, and you have more unrest there for that reason.

We don't have a problem of Muslims wanting to impose strict Islamic practices in this country. We don't have a problem of Muslims trying to impose their religion on others. It's just not happening here. One would expect that to happen here since we are the "Great Satan", but it's just not. If their objective was to establish a great caliphate that would include this country, that is what we would experience. Instead, what we experience is the occasional act of terrorism. The only purpose that is served by terrorist acts is to scare people. None of these acts has had the purpose of scaring us into becoming Muslim. Not even the people who planned these acts have said they are for the purpose of making us become Muslim. They have consistently said that they are for the purpose of swaying public opinion to pressure the US government to get its military out of Muslim countries and to stop meddling in the affairs of those countries.

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 08:44 AM

Saw Richard Clark (rememmeber him from the 9/11 Comission) on the news a couple nights ago and he flat out stated that the problems leading up to 9/11 with intellegence sharing wasnot addressed by the Bush administration (over 7 years) nor the Obama administartion (11 months)...

Me thinks that Obama will bust some balls this year and get it done... I also think that the Bushites (here and everywhere) believe that time began on Jan. 20, 2009 and are in denial about just what a fu*ked up mess that Bush left behind to be cleaned up... Me also thinks that that thinking is ripe with hypocrisy...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 06:57 AM

"Revolutionary Communism" was seen as a transnational and international movement in very much the same way as "militant Islamism", with the same potential to move about and in any part of the world and in any individual. More so than Islamism in fact.

There was an element of truth in that - but the reality tended to be much more one of local movements or governments pursuing nationalistic objectives. The commitment to "international revolutionary Communism" tended to be pretty subsidiary. Lip service might be paid to the notion of a worldwide International, but for the big players the reality was more pragmatic and local.

Much the same is true today in respect of our current "boogey men".

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 05:32 AM

Dum de dum de dum, my Boston concert has just downloaded, so no need to read all this!!!

Subject: RE: BS: attempt mass murder Christmas
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 03:30 AM

I take your point Carol - I have long said that militant Islamism has replaced Marxism as the worldwide threat. But the difference is that Vietnam is a specific geographical location {the threat that, if victorious there, they would somehow sail the Pacific & overrun the American continent was patently absurd}; while the Islamist movement I refer to can, and does, move about; shifting its training camps from Pakistan to N Nigeria to Yemen [or running all simultaneously]; and the bombers are as likely to come from within, like Richard Reid the 'shoe-bomber' and the 7/7 London Underground terrorists who came from no further away than Yorkshire, as from outside. Vietnamese Marxists did not move to the USA or UK - and certainly were not born in either like some of the recent bombers - but were operative purely within their own territory, where it is indeed at least arguable as to whether USA had any right whatever to pursue the Marxists among them. The same does not apply to our own Bradford-born bombers. If you persist in regarding them as nothing but 'boogey·men' I suspect you might receive quite a nasty surprise before you are very much older,