BS: lets develop Scotland

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 07:53 AM

Musket, those lines were suggested by Joanne Lamont, the leader of the Labour Party in Scotland and I agree, she makes me sick too.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 05:19 AM

Hilarious Jim.

Missed opportunity though. Imagine the fun you could have had with the empty Rob Roy promises of Salmond and the other dangerous dreamers?

Did The Proclaimers sing something about it?

BP no more
Investment no more
Markets no more
Cash for welfare no more

etc
Ad nauseum

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 04:34 AM

Triplane, you forgot the bit about " the ma no' independent mind"

Lyrics Jim McLean, tune The Beef Can Close

Oh Darling's got a brand new job,
He's Cameron's latest clown.
His hair is white, his eyebrows black,
And his nose is a dirty brown.
Ricky doo dum day, ricky doo dum day,
Ricky dicky doo dum day.

Ed Miliband is Cameron's man,
He hates the SNP.
He'd rather see a Tory win,
Than Scotland standing free.
Ricky doo dum day, ricky doo dum day,
Ricky dicky doo dum day.

There's Danny Alexander
With Osborn, Clegg and Balls.
For Dave's the puppet master
And they're all his dancing dolls.
Ricky doo dum day, ricky doo dum day,
Ricky dicky doo dum day.

Gordon Brown wi the great big frown
Has joined the Tory crew.
Dave brought him from retirement
Saying "I have need of you!"
Ricky doo dum day, ricky doo dum day,
Ricky dicky doo dum day.

Dave said "Go spread the message,
Just promise them years of pain.
You let me in the last time
And I know you'll do it again".
Ricky doo dum day, ricky doo dum day,
Ricky dicky doo dum day.


Jo Lamont thinks we're stupid,
Ruth Davison thinks we're poor
Wee Wullie Rennie agrees with them
But he isnae really sure!
Ricky doo dum day, ricky doo dum day,
Ricky dicky doo dum day.


Dave's even roped in Gallaway
Whose war cry is "say naw"
But if you vote for that lot,
Ye'll end up wi Hee Haw!
Ricky doo dum day, ricky doo dum day,
Ricky dicky doo dum day.
Ricky doo dum day, ricky doo dum day,
Ricky dicky doo dum day.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Triplane
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 03:52 PM

The great Bard Himsel' was nae separitist

Then let us pray that come it may,
(As come it will for a' that,)
That Sense and Worth, o'er a' the earth,
Shall bear the gree, an' a' that.
For a' that, an' a' that,
It's coming yet for a' that,
That Man to Man, the world o'er,
Shall brothers be for a' that.

And nae Jacobite either

Then let your schemes alone, in the state, in the state,
Then let your schemes alone in the state.
Then let your schemes alone,
Adore the rising sun,
And leave a man undone, to his fate.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 12:20 PM

Misty eyed bigots eh?

Surely none of those in Scotland?

Oh.

Well, none young enough or intelligent enough to be taken seriously.

It didn't escape me, the thought of what happens when idealist fools scream for independence. Just look at, when it used to happen, an old firm derby. Imagine those idiots getting access to guns and ideas?



Gnu. Happy Canada Day. Scotland day is every day, when the benefits cheques turn up courtesy of The Treasury in London.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 11:13 AM

If I understood what I saw on BBC news today,
A soon as the new Ukrainian President declared the cancellation of cease fire,
Separatist fighters were seen to be punching the air jumping for joy, and firing automatic rifles into the sky in reckless abandon...

FFS.. what, in the 21st century, is the warped mindset of these kinds of armed thugs who enjoy civil war,
death, and destruction
as a means of protesting discontent with the prevailng political order ???

errr.. Hello Scotland.. keeping check on fervent extremist numpties with access to shotguns.. eh.. ????

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: gnu
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 10:58 AM

Some a you guys are a hoot and a half, inducing hearty laughter in my small cabin in your Colony of Canada. Shame that none of you called to wish me a Happy Canada Day, though. If you do, note the times of the two World Cup games as you shall only get as far as my answering thingywotsit (spg?).

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 02:53 AM

"No matter what happens to Scotland in September, it will be a divided nation for a few years."

Guest, Sol care to tell me when prior to 1707 Scotland was a "united" country?

Borders not pacified until the 1650s.

Highlands and Islands didn't even recognise the King of Scotland as their ruler until the late 1490s and even after that remained a bickering, troublesome, lawless region until eventually "pacified" in the 1700s.

"Gone forever however, is the moral standing of the BBC."

It has been a great many years since the BBC had any moral standing - One means of setting out on the right road to recovering it would be for the BBC to release the Balen Report for public scrutiny. The Balen report looked into allegations of anti-Israeli bias related to the Israeli-Palestine conflict. It is thought to be damning in the extreme and certain BBC employees were shifted pdq as a result.

"Also gone is any notion that the UK is a democracy. IMO, it's not."

Love to hear that expanded so that there is meat on the bones to discuss. "Gone the notion that the UK is a democracy?" - compared to what? Certainly would agree with you in the case that 69 people drove this destructive, divisive, referendum through and inflicted it, I strongly believe, on the people of Scotland against their wishes. And no it will not be a divided nation for years, the harm done has been done and will remain as a vivid scar.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 30 Jun 14 - 07:40 PM

No matter what happens to Scotland in September, it will be a divided nation for a few years. A big healing process will be required in the aftermath of the referendum. I'm surprised at the lack of preparation for the win/lose backlash.

Gone forever however, is the moral standing of the BBC. Also gone is any notion that the UK is a democracy. IMO, it's not.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jun 14 - 05:35 AM

"Well MR T I'm surprised by your response, if we all sit back and wait for a train wreck, Independence will never be realised.
The least your could do in a democratic "yes" victory, would be to accept the will of the majority and try your best to make Independence a success.

Of course there will be difficulties, but united as one nation we can make Scotland a better place to live in for everyone.
People are sick of the Westminster merry go round...sick of politicians in fact."

Unfortunately Ake, should disaster strike and a YES vote prevail on the 19th September 2014, I will be in very in no position whatsoever to make "Independence" a success - the role played by pensioners in any society these days is extremely limited.

Lots of promises have been made by the SNP wrt life in an Independent Scotland, the only problem is they have not done the homework required that would enable them to argue the reality of their promises.

Those on benefits are expecting those benefits to increase from Day One. The civil service and public sector in Scotland currently in some departments cover the whole of the UK. Commonsense would tell anyone that the 350,000 jobs in this sector will not remain when departments are down-sized to cater for a country with a population of only 5.3 million instead of one of 64 million. Swinney's proposal and what he sees as being required is to borrow and borrow heavily for at least the first three years - worked well for Gordon Brown as Chancellor and for Gordon Brown as Prime Minister between 1997 and 2010 didn't it?

Capital flight and movement of jobs will be inevitable as will increased costs with trade between independent Scotland and the UK thrown up because that independent Scotland will find itself outwith the EU. To blithely presuppose that things will simply continue as they did before is naive to say the least.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 30 Jun 14 - 01:32 AM

Will they retain the pound?

Will they retain the quarter pounder ?

Will they retain the healthy gherkin usually served with it?

The pavement outside any McDonalds in the central belt answers the last one.

Of course, we dirty rotten stinking capitalists are hypocrites divine! A table for two at Castle Terrace wipes out a good £300 of ill gotten gains. That's, let me see, 67,536 groats and a scabby rabbit.

Interestingly, this week, all the holiday lets have Scottish families in them. That is rare. I'll just spend all day wondering how to get a cheap gag out of that. I don't have Al's spontaneous wit or zillions.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 06:36 PM

groats....that's inspired!

Scots porridge Groats!

Start off the morning with Scot's porridge groats!

Start off the republic with Scot's porridge groats!

put the rent up! monny a mickle maks a macdonald meal deal...

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 03:42 PM

I don't intend to, don't worry. I'm already too bloody cheap. Not quite got the hang of this capitalism lark.

If they start paying me in groats or whatever currency they use, I'll be tapping you up for a loan.

Still, the attitude of the letting agents is interesting regarding the market. I also know properties are getting harder to sell as the referendum looms. Away from my windups, that is sobering...

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 01:52 PM

raise the rents Musket! we sassenachs should make that nation of kilt wearing, whisky swigging deadbeats pay to live in their own country.

don't leave them enough to fry a fun size Mars bar!

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 12:54 PM

Yes but Al, that's the addiction of capitalism. I just want to be a fiver behind you. If you saw, as I did, how filthy the Caspian Sea is, you'd think twice about eating unspunked fish eggs too...

If you are free any time with your protection business, I would be grateful if you kept an eye over my holiday lets in the down season and my student digs in the summer? Some of the winter ones, Kingussie, Aviemore etc get winter trade with the skiing, but no bugger wants to be in any of the others when the weather gets cold.

On a slightly serious note, the letting company I use for the student digs, a Scottish company at that, advise that if independence goes through, I may wish to take into the account the property value slump and raise my rents at the next review to protect my interest. Both universities that send clients are expecting it and have informed their accommodation staff to warn new students that private sector rents may rise from next year, and halls of residence may be reviewed too.

Aye, the Scots really are looking after the Scots eh?

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 11:16 AM

I must say I think all you lot are missing the point.

of course Scotland should go it alone!

Make all these rich bastards with their acres of land a nd enormous fortunes pay for the protection they receive from hot headed revolutionaries like me.. make the queen pay bedroom tax on balmoral!

does anyone really doubt that half our tax money is being half inched by that gangs of turds in Westminster....?

a chance for Scotland to crawl out from under the oppression of London.....take it!

I can understand that Musket wiping his greedy chops and wolfing down another load of caviar (no thought of the Baku peasants down in the Caviar mines!) - he will want the oppression to continue. what a scoundrel!

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 11:10 AM

Klingon....are you a UK citizen Monty?
Its "Glasgow dialect", have you ever heard a bit of true "Geordie".

God knows how they spell it but it sounds lovely!    :0)

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Montgomery
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 10:49 AM

"Fantasy isn't a language though."   


errrrmmm... Klingon...???

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 10:46 AM

Translation for Ian.

"NAW an' ah'll no' tell again.".... was a last warning from Scottish mothers to unruly children, which was swiftly followed by a sharp "skelp oan the lug", if not heeded.

The "NO", anti-independence faction would like to behave in such a manner, but we, the Scottish people are not children to be disciplined.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 08:12 AM

Google translation didn't help me either.

What language was that Worm? It helps if I can tell Google translate what the source is.

Fantasy isn't a language though.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 06:24 AM

I should think have!.......Supporting the "NAW! an' ah'll no' tell ye again!" campaign?.....whit a waste o' time!

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 05:45 AM

Keep going Ake.....Being truth and fact blind seems to be a requirement for the yes campaign. If the facts and the truth don't fit then just don't see or acknowledge them. This has been the whole basis of Salmonds campaign. Bank of england. "You can't have the GBP"......Salmond "yes we can". your revenue forcast on oil is 8 Billion delinquent....Salmond..No it isn't.....You haven't given any costings...Salmond..Yes we have...... He is just a denial politician.

My last posting on this matter because I have better things to do.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 12:19 PM

Millbank is in Westminster.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 09:16 AM

"
Which completely confuses your earlier post."

Rubbish!....The Parties after Independence, will be free from Westminster control and will have as a priority the wellbeing of Scotland and her people.
At the moment they may call themselves "Scottish Labour" or "Scottish Conservatives", but their first allegiance is to Westminster and which ever government is in power there, no matter how unrepresentative it may be to the people of Scotland.
The huge waste of money involved in helping the US to "police" the world will come to an end.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 08:45 AM

Which completely confuses your earlier post.

Ask whoever tells you what to put to be a wee bit more consistent? Some of it I can understand by going to the source at the Yes camp websites, but I'd rather not bother.

Enjoy your Ceilidh. Set it up in the name of a limited company though, no bugger will be able to afford to pay for the caterers, and you could always put it in liquidation like many of my customers did when Ravenscraig shut. Aye, we always carried a disproportionate amount of debt from business in Scotland. Costain over at Wishaw too, not to mention a few in Cumbernauld pissing away start up grants and leaving suppliers like us high and dry.

Dave Wynn seems far more in tune with my take on it, and considering I am neither here nor there in terms of preference itself, not being ginger or suffering from CHD or any other feature of being Scottish, I would be slow to dismiss facts if I were voting.

I loved the bit where One of Salmond's mates said on BBC Question Time that the no camp can't be getting their facts right because Alistair Darling was born in London.

Nationalism and repugnant chauvinism. Not the best excuse for risking your economy...

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 07:41 AM

Dave and Ian....you obviously don't have a clue what you are talking about.
Of course we are not voting for Mr Salmond, we are voting for a Free Scotland, and there will be various political stances available to vote for in a subsequent election to form a Scottish government.

Dave... I said that the projects were pushed and promoted by Westminster PARTIES, "Scottish" Labour and Lib Dem.
Mr Salmond and the SNP the only voice for Scottish independence, IN OPPOSITION at the time, opposed both projects strongly.
At the time, the Nationalists had only a handful of MP's, since then support for a Free Scotland had grown and continues to grow.

The result will be close and will depend on how the large number of "don't knows" decide to vote.
Polls suggest that a large percentage of "don't knows" are responding unfavourably to the negative propaganda of the "NO" faction

Unlike my friend Teribus, I believe that we in the "YES" camp have the momentum and will carry the day.....then it will be "Ceilidh Time"
and Mr T will be Guest of Honour...I bet he will join us in a Hie'lan Fling, rather than sit waiting on a gory old "train wreck"?    :0)

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 03:00 AM

Guest above hits on an interesting point. The cost to The UK of bailing out an independent failed Scotland and restoring the status quo would be a burden on the taxpayer.

The risk being a British referendum telling them that having made their bed, lay in it.

You could always turn the parliament building into a hotel for Americans over to watch the Edinburgh tattoo.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 08:45 PM

I'm not so much worried about their departure as the possibility some numpty politician lets them back in again for a pittance once it fails.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 05:01 PM

You have the gall to tell me to get my facts right. I research before I publish unlike both you and the SNP yes campaign "The search for a new site for the new Parliament building began after the referendum in September 1997 in which the people of Scotland voted by almost three to one for the creation of the first Scottish Parliament in almost 300 years. ". Please note the source is the Scottish parliaments website. What part of "The people of Scotland and Referendum" do you have difficulty understanding. You seriously believe that Westminster inaugurated the debacle of Edinbrough trams. More yes campaign lies and deceit.
You are now showing your marked lack of understanding basic facts which borders on ignorance. Like your mentor Salmond. I see that the 8 billion shortfall in the rose tinted white paper (which works out at £1600 approx per population) will probably be ignored or made up from the 2.46 million people who work. (38% men 25% women and 18% part time. The rest made up of self employed etc.) As the shortfall is £1600 per head of population and must be made up by the 2.5 Million who work that now becomes £3200 approx per head extra tax Salmond needs to find. It's beyond a joke, it's just Salmond-ism or pantomime "Oh yes we can".
It's too late for you to smell the coffee because you have obviously seen and believed Braveheart. You have become a Hollywood Scot.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 04:26 PM

Yeah, sick of politicians. Have Salmond instead...

Progress I suppose. Not seeing SNP as a political party. Snag is, they are. They are as competent or incompetent as any other politicians, except on the whole they are idealists rather than pragmatists.

Wouldn't it be funny if the yes vote won the day and a traditional party won the general election that followed?

You feel bigoted for that matter, but sadly, you are a British bigot.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 03:10 PM

Well MR T I'm surprised by your response, if we all sit back and wait for a train wreck, Independence will never be realised.
The least your could do in a democratic "yes" victory, would be to accept the will of the majority and try your best to make Independence a success.

Of course there will be difficulties, but united as one nation we can make Scotland a better place to live in for everyone.
People are sick of the Westminster merry go round...sick of politicians in fact. The parties no longer inspire our young people.

Remember how WE thought we could change the world through party politics, well most young people do not believe it any longer and I don't blame them. Millions of them have been written off to take the pressure away from a defunct system.

Most of us here FEEL Scottish, not British, regardless of how we vote, and that sense of National Identity can be harnessed for the benefit of ALL our citizens.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 01:55 PM

Good job I bought my Scotland properties when they were cheap then. The holiday lets have mainly English tourists and the student lets also, although a few Norwegians of course. They can afford the Morningside digs.

History? How far back do you want to go? Go forward to September instead. That's all that counts. By your reckoning, where I live is under Danelaw. zzzzz

You are not a foreigner to me. You seem to be a chippy bugger but we have them all over, not just in the Northern counties of Great Britain.

Just watching Wimbledon. What do you reckon this year, British winner or Scottish loser?

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Gutcher
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 01:52 PM

To show it is not all one way traffic---a true story.
THE BITER BIT.
My late friend Gregor, a crofter up near Kingussie had the following experience.
Sitting at the kitchen table with his friend John enjoying a cup of tea a knock at the door "good morning my name is Torquil Hoochmagandy FFlufington Smythe, [it may have been Musket, who knows] are you Mr Gegor Mackenzie, I am your new landlord" "come away in laird {anyone from a mister to a duke is addressed as laird in his own land up here]
this is my friend John, sit down Mr Smith and what can I do for you today? "it,s what I can do for you Mr Mackenzie, you may have heard I have paid a stiff price for this estate and in order to make up the purchase price I have decided to offer some of the sitting tenants the chance to purchase their crofts, would you be interested in buying yours? " O aye Mr Smith I would like fine to become a laird just like yourself." "do you mind if we discuss business in front of your friend" "not at all Mr Smith fire away" "well Gregor, do you mind if I call you Gregor?" not at all Torquil since we are about to become neighbouring lairds I do not mind atall atall" " well the price I am seeking for this fine croft, and believe you me you will never get a better bargain, is £86000.oo" Gregor sits in silence for a few minuets," John he says rax me doon that writing pad and cheque book from the shelf behind you" Gregor writes out a few lines on the pad and then fills out a cheque, having asked who to make it out too,
the paper is passed to the landlord who reads --received from Gregor Macenzie The sum of £1200.00 in full and final payment for croft xxxxx "Gregor there is some mistake here" "nae mistake laird all I have to pay for the croft under the crofting legislation is 14 times my annual rent, just have your man of business send on the title deeds, You,ll have a dram to celibrate the transaction,--no well good morning to you sir"

Gregor is no longer with us and the new laird was roupet oot the door not having been able to come up with the full purchase price for his grand estate.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 01:10 PM

Like the cut of your jib, Butcher :-)

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Gutcher
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 11:46 AM

It may be to you the UK but it was never so by the will of the majority of the people of Scotland---go read your history.
Musket comes over in any thread he contributes to as just the type of person who would praise the downright rottenesss of some of his fellow countrymen and their malpractices.
As to selling property and the local people not being able to compete with purchasers from what, is to me, a foreign country I have long wished we had the laws that are available to some continental countries whereby locals [citizens] can buy at one price and others have to pay some four or five times the local purchase price.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 10:15 AM

Will someone tell Akenaton this is not an election? You are voting for Labour, Conservative, Greens, SNP, Lib Dem, Monster Raving Looney and all the rest. This is not about SNP in power or out. They just happens be in the yes camp.

To say that Salmond opposed something Labour brought in has any bearing on this referendum just shows the need for information as Akenaton clearly doesn't even know what he is voting for! He thinks it is a party political vote for crying out loud!

Gutcher isn't the sort you'd want to chat with either. It isn't your country. It's The UK.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Gutcher
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 09:58 AM

Something not mentioned in this thread as far as I can see having just read all the posts ----the scam worked by some of our wide awake southern neighbours in more than one area of our country.
This scam involved families who having moved up here then bringing their parents to live with them and then making the parents homeless they then having to be given social housing by the local authority which in due time they purchased at a discounted price.
This scam has of this week been scuppered as no social housing can now be sold.
These are the type of people who are not welcomed in our country nor should they be in any self respecting country and any attempt to justify them cannot be condoned.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 09:27 AM

Akenaton:

The referendum question to be decided upon on the 18th September 2014 will be put not to the people of Scotland but to the electorate of Scotland as a whole - period - not to Scots voters, not to English voters, not to Polish voters or voters of any other category or label you want to use. The electorate of Scotland will vote and I believe that they will vote "NO" using their commonsense and not emotion, they will do so for the step they are being asked to take by the Yes Campaign in irreversible - once broken the Union can never be remade.

The result of the referendum will I believe be NO, and to those in the Yes Camp who say that they will just try again I would sincerely hope that the next time a referendum on Scottish independence is proposed the electorate of Scotland get a chance to state beforehand whether or not they want one, had that been the case this current referendum with its monstrous waste of time, effort and money would never have occurred it was pushed through by the SNP, for the SNP by less than one-quarter of the electorate of Scotland. The ridiculous White Paper "Scotland's Future" is little more than a "rose-tinted" SNP Manifesto full of baseless assumptions which when put up for critical review crumble to dust and prove worthless.

You ask what I will do if Scotland votes for independence? Make sure my money is safe then sit back and watch the train-wreck as it unfolds - It took us 350 years of internal bickering and greed the last time to destroy what we had and bring our nation to its knees. With our current crop of professional politicians I reckon it will not last three-and-a-half decades before Scotland is reduced to basket case status - possibly some Russian oligarch will buy it as a curio

"Hopefully most of the historic association between Scots and brutal warfare will start to diminish with Independence.
In was a symptom of how we were exploited by the Union. Young workless lads? Oh just get them intae the Army, cannon fodder for the Empire."

IIRC life in Scotland pre-Act of Union was a damned sight more brutal and warlike than ever it was after.

During the Jacobite Rebellions more Scots fought for the Government side than ever fought for the rebels. They did so not wishing for a return of "the bad old days" - THEY, the majority of Scots saw the tangible benefits of Union as opposed to the empty promises of France and the "pie-in-the-sky" Jacobites.

Poor working class lads eh? Exploited by the Union? If that is what you think you know little of the history of most of our Scottish Regiments both Highland and Lowland.

The Black Watch (42nd Regiment of Foot) for instance of "Twa Recruitin' Sergeants" fame - they, because they were not Clan based were the only Regiment that actually used recruiting parties and even then on their first being raised all men were "gentleman soldiers", all were volunteers and all had to bring with them letters of introduction and character, literally hundreds were turned away.

Fastest Regiment ever raised in the British Isles to serve under the colours was the 25th Regiment of Foot - The Kings Own Scottish Borderers - it took them less than 40 minutes to enlist over 800 men - again all volunteers.

79th Regiment of Foot - The Cameron Highlanders - raised by one of the Clan Chiefs with money from his own pocket - all volunteers

John Prebble in his book on the Clearances details the contribution made by volunteers from the Isle of Skye to Britain's armed forces during the Napoleonic War - it was staggering in terms of numbers which included Officers over the rank of Colonel, Line Officers, NCOs and men (over 10,000 of the latter IIRC)

Any claim to Scottish feats of arms mainly post-date 1707 and were won wearing Scarlet Coats and under Union Colours - prior to that the track record wasn't that brilliant.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 05:55 AM

Ian, there is a simple answer, either get your friend put up some proof of his allegations, or apologise. Quite simple.
Failing that, action shall be instigated long before Independence, so stop fretting.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 05:13 AM

Get your facts right Dave!
Both of the projects which you cite, were instigated, promoted and costed by the Westminster parties, Labour and the Lib Dems.
Both projects were strongly opposed by Mr Salmond and the SNP when they were in opposition.
The costing was ludicrous and helped the pro devolution parties to push the projects to the public, as a sop against REAL independence.

This misinformation and downright lying by the "NO" campaign, has been an unfortunate feature of this debate

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 04:24 AM

Bloody am. Not impressed with the stuff.. (I do not know if I have ever been offered caviar at an embassy bun fight. I can however confirm that having been to many in lots of different countries over the years, I have never ever been offered Ferrero Rocher chocolates.......)

I tried caviar (best Beluga) when I was in Azerbaijan a few years ago, as let's face it, that's where most of it comes from. The locals have a Marmite approach to it, they either spread it on toast or don't touch the stuff. (Cheap as chips in Baku markets.)

Presumably haggis can have the same approach if a closed Scotland limits availability. That's how the soviets did it with caviar. I don't know if they graze south of the border, and to be fair, I have never seen them in the wild, not even the more common clockwise ones. McSweens only catch clockwise haggis for the better taste.

Haggi?

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 03:33 AM

Caviar? "You're spoiling us, Ambassador!"

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 01:37 AM

Five years late Dave? And the rest...

It's academic anyway, I remain convinced that the voters are more sophisticated than that and not everybody has the low intellect of Akenaton. There are only so many idealistic votes borne of ignorance. When ex iron curtain or ex war zone countries emerge, the west fall over themselves to help bear the cost of nationhood. I doubt anyone will give aid to a petulant series of UK counties with a referendum.

The benefits of removing even more Westminster decisions are very tempting. Tempting for anywhere outside of the Home Counties. But I doubt Rutland or North East Lincolnshire would wish to open embassies as the price. Having been on many trade jollies over the years, embassy caviar bills alone must make your eyes water.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 07:04 PM

.....I have to say too. The costs for the Scottish parliament building Estimated at £40 million by Scotland. Was eventually built by Scotland for £414 million. The Edinburgh tram. £375 Million over budget, half the size first designed and 5 years late. Built and designed by Scotland......Salmond says trust me.....I can only hope and pray that the polulation of Scotland don't.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 06:46 PM

If Scotland votes for independence, then presumably every registered voter living in Scotland at that time would become a Scot. Which means I could apply for a Scottish passport.....Oh no, silly of me Scotland doesn't have a passport office, or any embassies. Never mind I could get a Scottish drivers licence...Ooops problems problems. Who would issue me with my car tax then.....VOSA MOT becomes problematical too. I bet Mr Salmond has factored all these in. I can just see it now. For the opening of 189 embassies 50,000 Scottish pounds. For building a tax and excise office s£20,000. Running above s£100,000 per annum. Passport office s£.......it's a joke it really is until the yes campaign tell the truth about costs of independence. On a financial level it will be a disaster. Oil revenues are tax collection only. Last figures "In the last two years Corporation Tax
revenues have declined by 60% from £8.8
billion in 2011-12 to £3.6 billion in
2013-14 and Petroleum Revenue Tax by 45%
from £2.0 billion to £1.1 billion in 2013-14." My source for the above is HM Revenue and customs Statistics of
Government revenues
from UK oil and gas
production.
Mr Salmond forcasted 12 Billion a year. Do you think that governments dictate oil and gas revenues. Wake up and smell the crude. They are dictated by the big oil corps who will shift extraction to obtain the most favourable tax costs and profits where they can. They will screw Salmond to the ground. They don't give a monkeys about the UK do you think they will go shiney eyed over an independent Scotland. We will be financially fucked if we go independent and my greater fear is there will be no going back for the coming generations.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 03:16 PM

Oh, and BTW Dave, yes I agree the youth of North of England has been exploited as much as the Scots by the UK war machine

Is as nonsensical as your first statement. Nothing to do with the North of England either. All young men from deprived backgrounds have always been cannon fodder. You cannot categorise people by where they live. How many times do I need to say everyone should be measured on their own merits. Not their country, creed or colour.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 12:34 PM

but they do not appear to have learn much from he experience

While the youth of Scotland have???

D.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 12:34 PM

Whilst not wishing to get embroiled in an argument between racing dog trainers, how would legal action of this type work between The UK and a foreign Scotland I wonder?

The alert to my ISP over incitement to hatred as displayed by Akenaton is straight forward. They pass it to the police pan constabulary unit who decide if it is worth pursuing and using international agreements require Mudcat Cafe Music Foundation Inc to pass on Akenaton's IP address and give his details to the local plod. Keeps it all in house in Scotland, as the pan constabulary unit can carry on or just work as two.

Akenaton and Seaham Cemetery having their discussion in public dragged into a legal sphere? Not sure how that could work between countries, at least in the years prior to Scotland being able to join The EU and cross border cooperation.

Interesting...

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Triplane
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 12:02 PM

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 10:59 AM

Seaham Cemetery, some time ago on this forum, you stated libellously that I had passed some of my racing dogs on to a builder in Seaham who was in the "business" of killing unwanted dogs of all varieties.

This was an outright lie and could be damaging to me as a trainer and owner. My lawyer reckons it is actionable under the new legislation, he has the post on file and awaits my instructions.

I await your apology, or some proof of the veracity of your allegations.

Dave, yes I agree the youth of North of England has been exploited as much as the Scots by the UK war machine, but they do not appear to have learn much from he experience

Freedom for Northumberland!