BS: UFOs do not exist!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 12:22 AM

Not to mention the deathless rejection of Doctor Harvey's research into the plumbing of the irculatory suystem: "I would rather err, and side with Galen, than be right with Harvey!".

It may be apocryphal, though.

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 12:19 AM

Science is self -correcting, but it takes a while sometimes.

Couple of famous examples:

It took a long time for meteorites to be recognized for what they are by science. Thomas Jefferson, for one, said he would sooner believe a Yankee schoolmaster would lie than that stones could fall from the sky (that's the schoomaster that reported the fall.)

And there was Semmelweiss, who said puerperal fever could be reduced if doctors would wash their hands. "When he published the results of ten years of observation in 1861, he suffered vicious attacks on his integrity and was forced to flee Vienna. He eventually suffered a complete psychological breakdown and committed suicide."

Offhand I can remember when there were canals on Mars and when excercise was bad for people with heart trouble. And when it was only folklore that cougars screamed. According to science, that is.

I remember the surprise when Benson's research showed that meditation could produce changes in body chemistry.

Right now there's bound to be lots of stuff we know that ain't so, that the self-correction hasn't caught up with yet.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 05:41 PM

It's too late for me for big thoughts and long posts, so I say goodnight with a minor quibble:

innate belief systems (Little Hawk)

Innate? I would have thought this type of thinking was out of fashion since 1945 or so.

Wolfgang (grin)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 05:11 PM

Hey, man, they already have. Only trouble is, they didn't stay. I frankly wish they would.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 05:00 PM

I have no need to win an argument, and anyone that has followed this thread will know where the last word will come from. Gimme a shout when they land.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 04:37 PM

I believe you are right about that, Mario. As far as we know, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 04:35 PM

no - the sun also orbits around the center of mass of the solar system.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 04:29 PM

BPL, if you wish to focus on physical events that are totally obvious to anyone, then of course we are in perfect agreement. That might not be what I had in mind, though.

Rather than simply trying to "win" the argument, consider the interesting alternatives and it will get us much farther in having a useful discussion here.

I think you may have become too accustomed to political campaigning or something. This isn't a question of winning here, it's a question of communicating more effectively and finding out something in the process.

I respect the scientific method and always have.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 01:38 PM

The deeper beliefs in space and time have to be in place there, BPL. You have to differentiate between beliefs of the mind and those that define your actual experience in various universes -- the deep convictions that define how you be and how you see.

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 01:20 PM

the way that knowledge is gathered and interpreted depends upon the innate belief systems of the gatherers.

This is exactly wrong. It's independent. Shove your finger into a light socket and you'll get shocked whether you're a catholic, a buddhist or an abductee.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 01:14 PM

Little Hawk...Wolfgang answered the question of biased & prejudiced scientific research in his earlier post. The point was, it is self correcting. Even biased & prejudiced research can serve a purpose, when it is being done to counter OTHER biased & prejudiced research! And eventually, whether by honest research or biased research, some theory or set of facts emerge which are hard to challenge...and they remain until new data are found.....and so it goes. There ARE tenets of science which are NOT challenged much anymore, (i.e. 'the Earth is roughly spherical') because almost universal agreement has been reached.

as to 'faith'...it is like a number of concepts we argue about here regularly. It lends itself to equivocation, that is, using the word to mean something a bit different from either 1)what your opponent is talking about, or b) what the generally understood usage of the word is.
...it is done with 'folk', it is done with 'God', it is done with 'fair' and 'reasonable' and it is REALLY done with 'belief'....and when done carefully, equivocation is hard to catch and takes a LOT of typing to expose. It is related to the "straw man" argument, where someone mis-represents a position (whether accidently, or on purpose)in order to argue against it.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 01:09 PM

..at least so we hope...

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 01:00 PM

rather it orbits around the center of gravity of the entire solar system
... so, that would be the sun then ...

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 01:00 PM

"Science is not a belief system. It simply means knowledge..."

Uh-huh. But...the way that knowledge is gathered and interpreted depends upon the innate belief systems of the gatherers. When they achieve a major breakthrough their belief systems often change...or...when their belief systems change they are often enabled TO reach a new major breakthrough...because they are looking for it with a different set of eyes, so to speak.

Therefore, belief systems shape science...and new scientific information shapes new belief systems. It works both ways.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 12:58 PM

You think this is bad? visit MOAB or the Fo-biac threads!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 12:55 PM

The point? There has to be a point??? Chill out, baby. Maybe we just enjoy talking about it. If you don't, there are always other threads where you can go that are more fun than this one...

Don't you ever talk because you enjoy it?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 12:55 PM

actually the earth does NOT orbit around the sun - rather it orbits around the center of gravity of the entire solar system

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST,debateoverdosed
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 12:52 PM

So does anyone change their minds after these debates? It's all turning into Blah blah blah.

I have never heard so much talk that accomplished so little. Please someone tell me the POINT of all this?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 12:44 PM

The human shortcomings of scientists does not impact upon science. Bad science, bad scientists, liars and charlatans abound, but science finds them out. That's the whole point of science. It's always subject to alteration. Even the fact that the earth moves around the sun may be disproven by the revelation of something of which we are at present unaware, but it will be science that reveals such. Science is not a belief system. It simply means knowledge. I would suggest shaving the little green men with Occam's razor.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 12:35 PM

BTW, academic institutions go to great lengths to ensure freedom of inquiry.


Except when it serves their interests not to; there have been too many cases where politics and funding defined these virtues.

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 12:32 PM

I am entirely in accord with the scientific method as you describe it, Wolfgang. I think it is an excellent method.

Here is another example of faith: People have faith in the philosophy of life that they are drawn to and take for their own. You have a philosophy, Wolfgang. Your philosophy of life shapes the way you interpret information and look at things. I also have a philosophy, and it differs from yours in some areas. This leads to us having different reactions to certain subjects. It doesn't necessarily mean that either one of us is wrong, it simply means we are looking at things from a different angle, and expressing things differently.

We are in agreement on the validity of the scientific method when it is applied in an unbiased and unprejudiced fashion.

But who is entirely without prejudice? And who is entirely without blind spots or limited awareness when it comes to perceiving all of reality?

Therein lies the problem.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 12:25 PM

"Many scientists are afraid of ridicule, and would not risk their reputations by studying certain areas"

Luckily, lots of other scientists are not afraid, and will study those areas. The whole point of science is that everything, everything, everything is open to question. ALL conclusions are provisional. There is no faith (except in a handfull of axioms such as "two points determine a straight line"). There is no greater source of fame (and fortune) than overturning dearly-held beliefs. There will always be one whose lust for fame and wealth is stronger than fear of ridicule. BTW, academic institutions go to great lengths to ensure freedom of inquiry.

And no, being a nuclear physicist doesn't make him right. Having ideas that stand up to relentless scrutiny would make him right...for the moment of course. Also, beware of experts outside their field of expertise.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: freda underhill
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 11:35 AM

Wolfgang

Many scientists are afraid of ridicule, and would not risk their reputations by studying certain areas. how scientific is that?

I briefly met a man who worked as a nuclear physicist in the states. he conducted a number of FOI searches of various sensitive government areas and was one of the original Roswell investigators. Stanton Friedman wrote a book: 'TOP SECRET/MAJIC', based on a US govt document leaked in 1984. This book includes documents accessed under FOI which show that the US govt has a committee/group set up to investigate AND INTERACT WITH UFOs (and their crew presumably!)

okay, Stanton Friedman is a nuclear physicist. Does that make him right?

just wondering

freda

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 11:19 AM

Little Hawk,

when I was 17 I believed in flying saucers and ancient astronauts.

BTW, I'm very different from you at 17. Authorities have to be questioned permanently and not to be respected from a position of faith. Some may gain my respect by the way they write and argue. Science for me is fascinating for what authorities write is permanently under question.

Science is not a set of to be learned results (though boring teacher can manage to present it this way), but a method of questioning. When I teach research methods, each week the students get the task to think about results and to come up with many possible explanations for the result.

Example 1: People who have learned to swim early in life earn more money later

Example 2: The incidence of Schizophrenia is related to social status in the USA, but unrelated in Germany.

Example 3: People in towns have a higher spontaneous walking speed than people in villages

And many more of those. You get the idea. I do not care at all who gets the correct explanation (in some examples I don't even know what the correct explanation is), good is the one who gets many different possible explanations and can argue for (or against) them. Often I get surprised by an explanation I had not yet thought of.

The heart of the scientific method is to doubt and to try to find alternative theories or explanations. And then of course to put them to test. And do it well, for others will find loopholes in your argumentation or experimental setup.

Your description of science is so far from my science, it is not even a parody.

The idea that scientists could for long be persuaded to cover up, is ridiculous. Not because individual scientist are without fail. They are on the average as jealous, fraudulent, obstinate, self-serving as people in other professions are. But because self-correcting procedures are built in. If you spot an error in your colleague's argument you publish that. If you find data inconsistent with a theory, you publish. If the theory is famous (and wrong) you will get famous too (and get perhaps the Nobel prize). On the long run, nothing which is wrong can stand for a long time. Someone will point out the inconsistencies sooner or later. For the fame of it and for the money accompanying the fame.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: freda underhill
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 11:02 AM

..whio is william shatner, anyway? and what does he have to do with UFOs?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 10:52 AM

What??? And what about Faith Hill, Bruce?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 10:46 AM

McGraw has Faith.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 10:40 AM

Wolfgang & dianavan - Okay. Faith. Yes, everyone has it, "but not everything someone says is faith based." Correct, Wolfgang.

For instance, if dianavan says she saw what she terms a UFO (meaning, I presume, something that she figures was an alien vehicle) then she is not making a statement of faith, she's making a statement based on her memory of an actual experience. Her faith in that case (like everyone's) is in her own powers of observation, and that's perfectly normal.

No, what I meant when I said that everyone has faith was something more like this: Some people have faith in, let's say, the basic authority systems around them in their society, such as...the government, the lawmakers, their teachers, their law enforcement agencies, judges, the official science community, the medical community, etc. And they will usually trust and accept what they hear from those people, specially when they are young.

I had great faith in those authorities when I was young (age 1-18 or 20). Accordingly, I was very conventional, I followed all the rules without question, I was very scientific and logical in my beliefs, respected authority, and I didn't believe in ANYTHING that had not been sanctioned by those authorities. I was a secular agnostic, also...which may or may not go with such a mindset. I did not believe in alien vehicles or anything like that.

I think that Wolfgang may have a form of faith rather similar to what I had at age 17. (this is just an assumption, I may be wrong)

Then I actually saw what I think were alien vehicles, around age 19. That changed my attitude somewhat. I was also beginning to become rebellious against my parents and the other authority structures, and I was listening to music (Dylan) which opened my mind to alternate possibilities. I also began to investigate spiritual matters, and studied a variety of religions and viewpoints.

I ended up in a few years as a person who deeply questioned all forms of authority and regarded them with great scepticism (having seen their fallibility in no uncertain terms), and I have remained sceptical to this day. In fact, the more I find out about our great social authority systems, the more sceptical I become. They have feet of clay, and they lie...usually because money is at stake.

I am equally sceptical of most religious authority systems, by the way. My move into spirituality did not move me into organized religion. I think for myself.

To put it simply, Wolfgang appears to have more faith in the altruism and openness of the scientific community on this planet than I do! :-) I think that there could be very strong pressures emanating from very powerful quarters which restrict the flow of scientific information to the public, censor it, and ensure that science remains silent on certain other issues which it might well be advised not to remain silent on.

And I think there's a coverup regarding alien visitors to this planet...for various political and "security" reasons. The scientific community cannot properly do its work without major funding. If that funding is withheld unless scientists do what they are told (or asked) to do...then they will do what they are told (or asked) to do, won't they? And if the media is controlled by a few very wealthy and powerful interests, then those few interests can control the flow of information to the public...and they do, for the most part.

Thus info about UFO's which is not sanctioned by those wealthy controllers remains marginalized (or ridiculed), and is not noticed or thought of by most people most of the time.

Thus conformity of thought is maintained in the general population.

And yet, many of us have personally seen those vehicles.

I do not trust "Daddy" anymore. I trust my own powers of observation and my own personal experience.

"If you want somebody you can trust, trust yourself" - Bob Dylan

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 09:41 AM

Could be, Bobert,if those are your favorites!..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 09:32 AM

This ain't one of them George Carlin questions, is it?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 08:24 AM

Does anyone else wonder why so many threads end up talking about faith and belief?

Isn't it kind of clear that we all are going to have our own thoughts on the subject, and the chance of changing anyone else's is like spitting into the wind?

Or is it more about trying to make sure what we write is being understood the way we mean it to be? That, too, might often be spitting into the wind.

Kahlil Gibran once wrote (I am paraphrasing here, which is ironic) "We will never understand each other until we reduce our language to 7 words"...

(Care to list your favorite 7?)
xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 07:23 AM

Little Hawk,

of course everyone has faith including me (see the faith thread for instance), but not everything someone says is faith based.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Escamillo
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 06:31 AM

Tonight I was tired of programming and spent a little time investigating those photos linked by Amos above, and found some interesting things. I saw that Dr. Steven Greers leads the research of UFO evidences in that site and so I tried to search the web for some references to him.

I've found in this site Seaspower.com

that Dr. Greers also leads an organization which assures to have found the infinite and free source of power and benefit humanity with this device, and that he is a brave fighter against commercial and governmental conspiracies, appart from being a UFO researcher. All for a few million bucks needed for funding the project.

Each time we scratch a little under the surface, some evidence of these Perfectly Identified Persons pops up. The following is part of a radio interview to Dr. Greers.

Sorry, Amos, nothing personal, you know how I appreciate you and how respectful I am towards all Mudcat friends.

Un abrazo,
Andrés (in Buenos Aires)

Transcript of Dr. Steven Greer's Interview
on Coast to Coast AM Radio with Art Bell
December 7/8, 2003


So this is another one of the things that happens with these sort of efforts, is that you get these people surrounded by legal and business people who do everything they can to put a monkey wrench in having the technology brought forward. So the reason I say that this is in a class by itself is because we have been able to see an extraordinary phenomenon with this particular device that we cannot explain as anything but a device that is extracting electromagnetic energy that's usable from the so-called quantum vacuum space around that object. But in reality, because we have not actually taken possession of the machine or the plans to reproduce it, it remains very much in the questionable category.

AB: The claim here is that it extracted essentially zero point energy and turned it into kilowatts you could see.

SG: It wasn't quite kilowatts, maybe it was about half a kilowatt,and this is the machine that we were able to pick up and take outside, plug things into it, inspect it. There was no hidden source of power. It was one of the most extraordinary things I have personally ever seen. Now, that's the good news. The good news is that I'm quite sure that this can be done.

SG: Now, there's another category, and I would say that our group, the Disclosure Project, working with SEAS - and the disclosureproject.org people can look at what we're doing with this and also seaspower.com, our website. But what we have found is that there are about 3 dozen inventors who have devices in mature stages, or less ripe stages of development, and we think that with probably around 10 million dollars in research and development funds, that at least a dozen of those could be brought to commercial viability within a year or two. Unfortunately, they do need that kind of support and that's something we're looking at doing.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: dianavan
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 03:42 AM

Yes, LH - everyone has faith. Even if its faith that the water will still be coming out of the tap or faith that hydro electric power is endless, or that there will always be gas.

My mother had faith in the government at one time.

I remember her saying, "The government wouldn't allow the manufacturers to add anything to our food that was harmful."

But what kind of faith are you talking about? Faith in UFO's?
Just because I saw a UFO doesn't mean I have faith in them. I just saw what I saw. I don't have faith in identified flying objects, either.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 12:02 AM

And that tells you a lot right there, doesn't it, Bobert?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 08:13 PM

Jaysus, Bobert, her dad prob'ly knew she was rite cute!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 07:42 PM

Go, brucie....

Like me too... Yeah, saw it like real good. I mean, like details. No, I didn't get to ride in it 'er nuthin' but I saw it and so did the lady I was with... Her daddy worked fir the CIA or USID 'er somethin' at the time so a few days after we saw it she said we couldn't be hanging together no more. Danged! She was rite cute. I told her not to tell her dad... Oh well...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 05:37 PM

The problem with this thread title is the exclamation mark. It should be a question mark. Of course UFOs exist. They do for me, anyway. I saw one.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 05:21 PM

Everyone has faith, whether they call it "faith" or not.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 04:27 PM

It has nothing to do with faith, at least not for me, but it may be a faith for you (you're the expert in that respect).

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 03:23 PM

You just subscribe to a different faith than I do, Wolfgang, and that's why we bug each other so much. Given different circumstances, our roles might be reversed. What I mean is, if you had grown up in a different family...or had had just one sighting of your own, you might share my faith. Had I not had those sightings in the late 60's I might share yours. By such small things are people separated in their understanding.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 02:23 PM

yup- I've seen several documenteries on Roswell...it does make me curious, and I don't doubt that the story has gotten VERY convoluted in 50 years, but there are way too many half-truths and 'almost' evidence for me to say "aha! Now I know exactly what happened!"

You gotta realize, my friends...I am not **DENYING** anything in particular, nor am I accusing anyone of lying. I am a sceptic in the best sense of the concept. I am waiting until The Stealth aircraft used to be VERY secret stuff, but now we see clear pics of them and know what some of those strange sightings were. ANYONE can see them now..(not 'bang' on them of course, but plenty of images that leave no doubt)...unlike 'saucers' and such that are reported in various degrees of clarity. If there are still classified "black" projects zipping about, that might explain some of it, and I wouldn't be surprised....but aliens? We have to make SO many assumptions to seriously believe aliens are HERE....new assumptions about laws of physics and biology especially.

Since we already know that we humans, under various conditions, can see & experience things that seem quite real, but are not caused the way they seem, I simply wait and shrug....Occam's Razor is my guide, and an open mind is my goal.

There is a fine line between an 'open mind' and .....well, I want to say 'gullibility', but that sounds condescending...there must be a word for being 'impressionable' that is not an insult, because I KNOW that honest people have had experiences that moved them and that they can't deny or shrug off. I have had dreams that shook me up, but I will NOT make assumptions about why or what they mean.....

...so...the title of this thread is "UFOs do not exist!" ...that is not my thesis. I just say that there is an awful lot we don't understand about our own experiences yet....and wait....and wait....

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 02:15 PM

As for the astronauts and kosmonauts, you'll find links on
The UFO Skeptic's Page.

Scroll for Oberg's contributions.

I always liked best those people who claimed that the UFOs were in reality human crafts coming from the openings at the poles steered by Nazis who had found a refuge in the hollow earth, a kind of theory unifying the hollow earthers with the Ufologists.

LH, I thought your English was perfect but showed your way of thinking.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 01:49 PM

Bill D -

Ever try to walk up and "bang" on a jet...
You aren't going to get far trying.

Unfortunately the phenomenon is worldwide and some reports a la Roswell tend to give the conspiracy theorists more hints that there is a cover up.

Through several decades of asking, pleading, begging and just plain FOIAing the military, CIA, DIA, NSA and FBI to death, there had been more and more information coming out about the incident. Instead of just keeping their mouths shut they have continued to release new "Final Investigations" which try to explain the incident and all of it's evidenciary items.

TO recap: Army guy tells press "we captured saucer". Different witnesses claim strange metals, little green men, etc. etc.

Gov't Responses: 1. Never happened it was a weather balloon, debris was from a radar reflector (reconstruction was two squares set on point and combined to create a near 3D diamond shape like used today in navigation shapes).
2. Strange metal was foil like used on Hershey bar wrappers (I guess no-one in Roswell had ever had a Hershey's chocolate bar).
3. Strange markings on metal were just pink markings on tape used to hold foil to reflector structure (strange that there was no-one in 40 some odd years of using the stuff that ever made that connection before).
4. More debris than our radar reflector theory covers - we continued such tests for a long time and debris built up (all the tests ended with crashes in the same area.
5. Little Green Men were human dummies from a high altitude parachute test (that didn't occur until six years after Roswell and I guess the witnesses had never seen one of them thar high fangled manakins before (lets not get into the fact that witnesses said "little" and the manakins were six foot tall).

People keep asking and they keep reporting themselves into a smaller corner.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 01:04 PM

1954 7 UFOs hovered above the Capitol building in DC for nearlt 30 minutes.

The public investigations and air force representatives were televised.

That was the last time the phenomena got even a modicum of respectable national coverage without cloaking it in a Katy Couric style laugh fest.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 12:50 PM

A fascinating notion, Bill. :-) There have been numerous UFO incidents where a very large number of people saw the UFO's, but I'm not going to list them here. I don't have time for that.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 12:26 PM

I didn't say 'photo'...I said "lets us bang on it"....fuzzy photos ARE easy to shrug off...a ship perched in Times Square isn't.

You, know...maybe that's part of the aliens 'testing' of us! Let some of us see glimpses and other see nothing, but never a good, close-up look for any, and never a solid, extended visit in a public park....why, it might get us arguing with each other, and they could study human psychology! Perhaps a web site ostensably for other purposes...like 'folk music'....but really run by 'them' and seeded with provocative posts....what an idea, hmmm?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 12:11 PM

Not necessarily, Bill. A photograph, no matter how good it is, will only tell a committed debunker the following:

1. That is a faked photo.

2. That is a faked photo.

3. That is a faked photo.

4. That is a faked photo.

5. Okay, it's not faked, it's an optical illusion created by a beam of sunlight on the camera lens.

6. Or it's a weather balloon...with a beam coming out of it that is clearly an optical illusion created by sunlight on the camera lens.

7. And those bumps on the bottom are optical illusions created by light and shadow...

8. Forget it! It's just another faked photo. Who do you think you're trying to fool?

You see, Bill, he just doesn't want to know about things he doesn't already know about...

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 11:56 PM

awww..Bobert, a polygraph would tell us you weren't lying, but we already know a gentleman like you wouldn't lie! But a polygraph wouldn't tell us if you had been fooled or confused.

The first UFO that sits down and lets us bang on it will be more convincing to us poor souls who usually get ignored and bypassed by the snooty aliens!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 11:48 PM

I ain't gonna read the 2 or 3 thousand posts of naw-sayers since OI last offered to take a poligraph on having seen a UFO like real clear so I'll just refresh my offer.

Not only do UFO's exist...

... but they rock!!!!!

Bobert