BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 05:59 PM

past ethnic cleansing, occupies and controls the West Bank, and imposes a territorial blockade imprisoning the Gaza strip

There was no "ethnic cleansing" using that terminology is considered an anti-Semitic trope.

If you care to do some research the "West Bank" is, according to international law, as much a part of Israel as is Israel proper.

The legal blockade against Gaza is to prevent the entry of weaponry destined to be used against Israeli citizens which ultimately leads to war resulting in civilian casualties. I suppose you don't care about that.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 04:06 PM

Challenging the legitimacy of a country isn't the same thing as calling for its annihilation.
Many people challenged the legitimacy of apartheid South Africa. What they wanted was a total transformation, not annihilation, nor for the expulsion of the white population.

It is also perfectly fair to see countries such as the USA and Australia as having been built on a total illegitimate basis of annexation, theft and genocide. But that isn't the same as saying these countries should cease to exist.

It is perfectly possible to challenge the legitimacy of the status quo as regard Israel, seen as a situation in which a state defined as confessionally Jewish, on the basis of past ethnic cleansing, occupies and controls the West Bank, and imposes a territorial blockade imprisoning the Gaza strip, The inhabitants of these territories are in effect living in Greater Israel, but with no effective political rights.

That analysis can be challenged, and is challenged - but I cannot see how it can rightly be identified with antisemitism.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 03:10 PM

In honour of this year's Nobel laureate and apropos of this topic:


"Neighborhood Bully"

Well, the neighborhood bully, he's just one man
His enemies say he's on their land
They got him outnumbered about a million to one
He got no place to escape to, no place to run
He's the neighborhood bully.

The neighborhood bully he just lives to survive
He's criticized and condemned for being alive
He's not supposed to fight back, he's supposed to have thick skin
He's supposed to lay down and die when his door is kicked in
He's the neighborhood bully.

The neighborhood bully been driven out of every land
He's wandered the earth an exiled man
Seen his family scattered, his people hounded and torn
He's always on trial for just being born
He's the neighborhood bully.

Well, he knocked out a lynch mob, he was criticized
Old women condemned him, said he could apologize
Then he destroyed a bomb factory, nobody was glad
The bombs were meant for him. He was supposed to feel bad
He's the neighborhood bully.

Well, the chances are against it, and the odds are slim
That he'll live by the rules that the world makes for him
'Cause there's a noose at his neck and a gun at his back
And a licence to kill him is given out to every maniac
He's the neighborhood bully.

Well, he got no allies to really speak of
What he gets he must pay for, he don't get it out of love
He buys obsolete weapons and he won't be denied
But no one sends flesh and blood to fight by his side
He's the neighborhood bully.

Well, he's surrounded by pacifists who all want peace
They pray for it nightly that the bloodshed must cease
Now, they wouldn't hurt a fly. To hurt one they would weep
They lay and they wait for this bully to fall asleep
He's the neighborhood bully.

Every empire that's enslaved him is gone
Egypt and Rome, even the great Babylon
He's made a garden of paradise in the desert sand
In bed with nobody, under no one's command
He's the neighborhood bully.

Now his holiest books have been trampled upon
No contract that he signed was worth that what it was written on
He took the crumbs of the world and he turned it into wealth
Took sickness and disease and he turned it into health
He's the neighborhood bully.

What's anybody indebted to him for ?
Nothing, they say. He just likes to cause war
Pride and prejudice and superstition indeed
They wait for this bully like a dog waits to feed
He's the neighborhood bully.

What has he done to wear so many scars ?
Does he change the course of rivers ? Does he pollute the moon and stars ?
Neighborhood bully, standing on the hill
Running out the clock, time standing still
Neighborhood bully.

Bob Dylan

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 02:49 PM

a, not antisemitic, and no-one claiming it is.

b, Legitimate or not, it exists and is not going away except by anhiliation.
Those in favour of anhilation would certainly be anti-semites.

c,
whether it is the case that accusations of antisemitism are being made against members of the Labour party

They unquestionably are, and all from within the Party.

without any evidence of hostility to Jews or Judaism.


All the accusations that have come to light have been about Jews, not Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 02:39 PM

a) Not anti-Semitic.

b) Is both Racist and Anti-Semitic, it was the Jewish population, i.e. the Jewish people of Palestine who accepted the Two-State Solution offered by the United Nations in 1947 who were responsible for declaring an independent and sovereign State of Israel that came into effect at midnight on the day that the former League of nations Mandate expired, NOT the Israeli Government primarily because there wasn't an Israeli Government. The United Nations immediately officially recognised the State of Israel and recognised its right to exist in peace, free attack or threat of attack. Six Arab neighbouring countries declared war on the newly created Israeli State. No-one has the right to challenge the legitimacy of the State of Israel to do so is to deny the Jewish people their right to self-determination.

c) In the case of Naz Shah she publicly stated her support for moving the Jewish population "lock-stock-and-barrel" and transporting them to the centre of the United States - she did not just want the Israeli regime moved there she wanted the entire population moved there - that again is both racist and anti-Semitic - she even admitted that herself, of course Shaw and Carroll think they know better - fact is THEY DON'T.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 01:47 PM

The relevance of Israel in this thread is really only about (a)whether it can be appropriate to accuse people of antisemitism on the basis of their being critical of actions and policies of the Israeli government? Or (b)on the basis that they challenge the legitimacy of the state of Israel?

And (c) whether it is the case that accusations of antisemitism are being made against members of the Labour party on the basis of such criticism, without any evidence of hostility to Jews or Judaism.

Strictly speaking, arguments about Israeli and Palestinian history, or about the justice of the two sides, are not really relevant.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 01:44 PM

The relevance of Israel in a thread is really only about (a)whether it can be appropriate to accuse people of antisemitism on the basis of their being critical of actions and policies of the Israeli government? Or (b)on the basis that they challenge the legitimacy of the state of Israel?

And (c) whether it is the case that accusations of antisemitism are being made against members of the Labour party.d

Strictly speaking, arguments about Israeli and Palestinian history, or about the justice of the two sides, are not really relevant.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 12:01 PM

""Yes, I am sure they do."
My mistake - my question wa earlier and it remains
" the Jewish members of the Labour Party put the interests of the Party before that of the Jewish People "
No misrepresentation - just a muitk on my part
That is your stance and that is the basis of your Antisemitism
Thatis actually what you are claiming
You are an antisemite
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 11:22 AM

Steve,
An invention?

Yes, I said it is an invention that anyone is claiming that all criticism of Israel is antisemitic.
Can you produce any such nonsense?
No.

You are here to try blindly to score points for Israel.

I thought I was the one trying not to make this just another thread about Israel.

I'm not playing games with you by going back to that again.

No, because you were shown to have no case. Just belief in a conspiracy.

You misrepresented in order to cheat this forum.

I did not misrepresent you. My quotes were cut and pastes and your actual posts were just a few posts ago, so how could anyone be cheated as to what you said?!
You are just embarrassed because you have been shown to have no case.

Jim,
Thank you for confirming your antisemitism - the Jewish members of the Labour Party put the interests of the Party before that of the Jewish People

There Steve is another genuine misreprestation from Jim.

What I actually said was "Yes, I am sure they do." in reply to Jim's "So you are now saying that they put the Interests of the Labour Party above that of Israel?"

This is made up nonsense - if it isn't, show who else claims it.

It is a fact that accusations of antisemitism within Labour have been made.
Deny that Jim?
It is a fact that complaints have been made to the leadership about it.
Deny that Jim?

You have not identified Antisemitism in the Labour Party and until you do, it does not exist, whoever claims it

So you are claiming that the entire NEC and prominent members like Sadiq Khan and Chakrabarti are all lying about it!!

All the accusations come from within Labour. What have I got to do with it?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 11:07 AM

I had a long, thoughtful post, that vanished.

My main thrust was, saying "Israel should not do X" is not anti-semitic. Saying "It's just like those Israelis to do X" is.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 10:11 AM

"Because it is an internal Labour issue."
Thank you for confirming your antisemitism - the Jewish members of the Labour Party put the interests of the Party before that of the Jewish People
I doubt if your troll friend will confirm this as Antisemitism, but that's what it is.
This is made up nonsense - if it isn't, show who else claims it.
You have not identified Antisemitism in the Labour Party and until you do, it does not exist, whoever claims it
Until you come up with e better excuse for denigrating the Jewish members of the Labour Party this goes on record as your screaming Antisemitism.
Done and dusted, I think
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 09:17 AM

An invention? Do you read the thread properly? Are you aware that your henchman bobad has called McGrath of Harlow an antisemite? Kevin, who has criticised the actions of the Israeli regime but never, ever said an antisemitic word in his life? You are not here to discuss. You are here to try blindly to score points for Israel. Well Israel needs people like you like it needs a hole in the head, Keith. I fully addressed the dishonesty with which you approached my post. I'm not playing games with you by going back to that again. You misrepresented in order to cheat this forum. Not for the first time, not by a long chalk. If I had any power (which I'm glad I haven't), it would be your last.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 09:10 AM

Smear that funky feces, Bubo; Smear that funky feces right.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 08:55 AM

Jim,
"None of them have ever "complained" of any such thing!"
You have insisted throughout that Jews are being subjected to a lorra-lorra Antisemitism in the Labour Party

"lora-lorra?"
They have complained about antisemitism, but no-one has ever complained "that their party is full of Antisemites," which is what you falsely claimed Jim.

"They have described it to the leadership."
Who says they have?

Errr, the leadership.

Why haven't they gone public with it

Because it is an internal Labour issue.
How can you deny it is an issue when the entire NEC has said it is.
And so many high profile members, e.g. Sadiq Khan who is hardly a member of the pro-Israel lobby Steve!

So you are now saying that they put the Interests of the Labour Party above that of Israel?

Yes, I am sure they do. What has Israel got to do with it anyway?

You offer not a shred of evidence for any of these claims.

I have quoted the entire NEC and numerous high profile members.
Your only answer would have to be that they are all lying.
Is that your case Jim?

Steve,
The post of 04.32 am is extremely dishonest.

The quotes are all cut and pastes of what you posted Steve.

Then the poster tried to make nonsense of my statement by chopping it in half.

No. I split it in two so I could respond to both parts separately. Less confusing that way.

Those who attack criticism of Israeli policy, calling such criticism antisemitic, are indeed ......

No-one calls all criticism of Israel antisemitic.
How many times will you set up that silly straw man?
It is an invention!

Your suggestion that I'm referring to a conspiracy of Jews is out-and-out antisemitic.

OK. A conspiracy of the "pro-Israel lobby." Is that what you believe?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 08:53 AM

Incredible Shrinking Israel

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 08:48 AM

These "maps" have been widely circulated by the BDS movement, and they are misleading and dishonest. They appear in the "Zionism Unsettled" study guide. They appear on the websites of the Israel Palestine Mission Network (IPMN) and the Presbyterian Peace Fellowship (PPF). They also appear in the supporting materials for the BDS overtures submitted to the 2014 and upcoming 2016 Presbyterian General Assemblies.

The intent of the maps is clear: to falsely demonstrate an "ethnic cleansing" that did not occur, one perpetrated by the "colonizer" Jews upon "indigenous" Arabs (the incendiary words "colonizer", "indigenous", and "ethnic cleansing" are used repeatedly in BDS literature).

In 1946, the area labeled "Palestine" was the British Mandate of Palestine. All who lived there were Palestinians, Arab Palestinians and Jewish Palestinians. In the 1946 "map" these terms change. The Arab Palestinians are now simply "Palestinians." The word "Palestinian" now means "Arab" and no longer refers to all of the people who live there, and the Jewish Palestinians are simply "Jews". In 1946 Jews paid over 50% of property taxes in Palestine. Almost half of the land was public land, owned by no one and administered by the British. The premise that the land was almost all "Arab land" is misleading. It was shared land and belonged to no particular ethnic group.

Now let's consider the 1967 map in terms of "ethnic cleansing", keeping in mind that before 1948, both Jews and Arabs lived in all of the areas of the British Mandate of Palestine, including the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem. It is quite common to hear that the entire West Bank is "Arab Land" and always has been, but numerous Jewish communities existed in what is now the West Bank prior to 1948. These communities were attacked and wiped out by Arab mobs in 1920, 1929 and 1936 and during the war waged by Arab militias and Arab governments in 1947-48. Here are some facts:

Until it was wiped out by Arab riots in 1929 in what is known as the Hebron Massacre, there was a large Jewish community in the center of Hebron

The Jewish population of Jerusalem (which has had a Jewish majority since at least the second half of the 19th century) was dispossessed by the Arab riots of 1929 and 1936 (when Jews fled most of what is now called the Muslim Quarter). In 1948, the Jordanian Legion expelled all of the Jews then living in what is now East Jerusalem and destroyed its holy places.

Sizeable tracts of land owned by Jews in the rural West Bank – including the Gush Etzion settlements, land between Nablus, Jenin and Tulkarm, and in Bethlehem and Hebron – were seized by the Jordanians in 1948.

The 'Jewish settlements' north of Jerusalem, Atarot and Neve Yaakov, were evacuated in 1948, under the declared threat of advancing Arab armies to massacre all the Jews in their path.

Today, hundreds of thousands of Palestinians live on land in and around Jerusalem that is still owned by the Jewish National Fund, including the Kalandia refugee camp and the Deheishe refugee camp south of Bethlehem.


FAKE PALESTINIAN LOSS OF LAND MAPS

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 08:42 AM

The British left Palestine to the sound of Israeli freedom fighters grenades being tossed into #occupied houses to make way for the new settlers
Six of one, half a dozen of the other.
Einstein and hi colleagues described this and other atrocities as "Zionist Fascism" - that was exactly what it was.
All this happened before most of today's generation were around - we are living in today.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 08:37 AM

"One law for the Goose another for the Gander" Eh Jim.

Fact - The United Nations officially recognised the State of Israel in May 1948. UN recognition was immediately followed by recognition by the U.S.S.R. and the USA. The USA has a bi-lateral defence agreement with Israel from this date and stands as guarantor of Israeli sovereignty and security.

Fact - The Israeli's were prepared to accept the UN Two-State solution proposed in 1947. The Arabs rejected it and five Arab nations declared war on the fledgling State of Israel in May 1948.

War is not a question of equivalence, War is not a "best out of three" child's game. Declare war, threaten to annihilate an entire population by driving them into the sea and lose that war does not mean a sign flashes "Game Over" and the pieces get re-set for the next attempt - there are consequences associated with waging and losing wars, I would have thought that by now the Arabs of the region and their "leaders" would have twigged onto that fact by now, wouldn't you?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 06:25 AM

"League of Nations seemed to do very well at the time "
So what you acheive over centuries, you tear down by a committee
"Jews have lived in the area from way before the 8th Century."
So?
We are dealing with living people now, not ghosts from the past
Where would New Zealand, Australia and The United States be if we accepted your twisted logic - and in their case, the time span is far less?
Stupid, stupid (not to say inhuman) argument.
I couldn't give a shit for Empires - they were only glorified lad-grabbers.
"None of them have ever "complained" of any such thing!"
You have insisted throughout that Jews are being subjected to a lorra-lorra Antisemitism in the Labour Party
"They have described it to the leadership."
Who says they have?
Why haven't they gone public with it - are they that dismissive of Antiemitism that they put a political Party first?
Virtually all these people have connections with the Israeli propaganda campaign to oppose the Boycott
So you are now saying that they put the Interests of the Labour Party above that of Israel?
For crying out loud Keith, stop digging - this is self-flagellation.
Your suggestion that these people have kept silent because of their loyalty to The Labour Party is as Antisemitic as it gets.
To first report Antisemitism then to deliberately withold the details from the general public would be grossly stupid and to apply that to all Jews in the Labour Party would be deeply Abntisemitic.
As it is, it is pure invention on your part to smear the Labour Party.
You offer not a shred of evidence for any of these claims.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 06:18 AM

The post of 04.32 am is extremely dishonest. I said "much of", not "most" or "all." Then the poster tried to make nonsense of my statement by chopping it in half. Those who attack criticism of Israeli policy, calling such criticism antisemitic, are indeed mostly either from Israel itself (just look at the links gleefully put up here by bobad and you) or from members or supporters of factions within the pro-Israel lobby. Your suggestion that I'm referring to a conspiracy of Jews is out-and-out antisemitic. I don't know how many times I have to tell you that many members of the pro-Israel lobby groups both here and in the US are not Jews. And you are completely unjustified in insinuating that I'm referring to any sort of conspiracy. I have never done that and I don't accept any such smear against Jewish people. Your obsession with wanting to make victims out of modern Jewish people is thoroughly antisemitic. Shame that you and scumbad can't see the irony in your remarks. It isn't as though we haven't pointed it out to you ad nauseam, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 05:47 AM

"How do you propose boundaries and award land to people who have occupied that land for centuries? Arab occupation of the area dates back to the 8th century."

League of Nations seemed to do very well at the time {Immediately after World War I} when it sought to implement US President Woodrow Wilson's "Fourteen Points":
Finland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Yugoslavia. Then with the break-up of the Ottoman Empire we got Syria, The Lebanon, Palestine, Transjordan, Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia the Trucial States, Oman, Yemen, Aden.

Jews have lived in the area from way before the 8th Century.

Before the First World war the ottoman Empire found itself heavily in debt and the World Zionist Organisation offered to help in return for land.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 04:38 AM

Jim,
describing all Jewish members of a political party as being both stupid and politically ambitious,

No-one has ever said any such thing.
What a nasty lie and smear!

first in complaining that their party is full of Antisemites,

None of them have ever "complained" of any such thing!
Now you are smearing Labour Jews with your nasty lies.

then in refusing to describe that antisemitism for fear of upsetting the Party.

They have described it to the leadership.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 04:32 AM

Steve,
a discussion of antisemitism in the present context is not possible without bringing Israel, or at least the regime and its supporters, into it.

Of course it is!
Anti-semitism is about Jews not Israel, never mind Gaza and Lebanon!!

Much of the controversy over what is and what isn't antisemitism is coming either from Israel

Rubbish! Another wild assertion that you can't substantiate.

or elements of the pro-Israel lobby (including, in the UK, Labour Friends of Israel, for example)

So it is a conspiracy of Jews?

Of course Israel will comment on antisemitism wherever it rears its head, including within our Labour Party, BUT ALL THE ACCUSATIONS OF ANTISEMITISM HAVE COME FROM WITHIN LABOUR, NOT FROM ISRAEL.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 04:22 AM

This thread asks What does "'anti-semitism' mean?"
Perhaps a perfect example is describing all Jewish members of a political party as being both stupid and politically ambitious, first in complaining that their party is full of Antisemites, then in refusing to describe that antisemitism for fear of upsetting the Party.
Seems an extreme case of Antisemistism to me
"proposed boundaries and "awarded land" "
How do you propose boundaries and award land to people who have occupied that land for centuries? Arab occupation of the area dates back to the 8th century.
"Awarding" people their own land sounds very much like the old Imperial benevolence that was on its last legs when the State of Israel was being established.
A then and now reminder.
PALESTINIAN LOSS OF LAND MAP
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 04:21 AM

Jim,
I'm afraid that, until somebody actually puts a face to that accusation, it really doesn't exist

The faces behind the accusation include the entire NEC and numerous prominent Labour members and officials.

You have now described Jewish People in the Labour party as being hypocritical idiots who put P\arty Politics before their own people

I have not. They have reported the antisemitism to the leadership.
Who else would be interested?
The leadership chose to keep it quiet.

The fact that they, nor you, have attempted you have attempted to describe that antisemitism - so far, it amounts to criticism of Israel, which is not antisemitism

None of the stuff quoted has been criticism of Israel.

Yu are openly lying about Corbyn, the NEC and Chakrabati -

Guardian, "Corbyn's aides defended Shah, saying the comments were antisemitic but the MP had "shocked herself," and did not mean what she said.""

Labour List, "The NEC are appalled by recent cases of anti-Semitic abuse."
"The entire NEC recognises the seriousness of this issue"

Ch.4,
CH 4 News Presenter Cathy Newman, "Would you acknowledge now that the Party does have a serious problem with antisemitism."

Chakrabarti, "I acknowledged the serious problems in my report itself."

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 01:42 AM

Richard Bridge - 12 Oct 16 - 01:30 PM

1. We have been over the establishment of Israel many many times. In 1923 and 1947/8 people who had no right to do so awarded land to people who had long ago abandoned that land and had no right to be there. It is too late now to fix that mistake and a solution that accommodates (even if not necessarily satisfies) both the Palestinians and Israel.

In 1923 and in 1947/48 the people who designated boundaries and proposed boundaries and "awarded land" as you incorrectly put it had as much right to do so as the previous rulers down through the centuries. The same right as those who decreed the borders of all states created in Europe after the First World War. By 1923 European Jews had been purchasing land in the region and settling it for almost 80 years, they were awarded nothing, they bought it and they rightly own it. As to your last sentence and your solution. That was offered in 1947 by the UN and it was rejected by the Arabs of the region. The PA now claims that they are "fighting" for a Two-State solution but they cannot show anybody any map that shows the borders of the Two States. They have not officially and publicly declared the right of the sovereign state of Israel to exist or the right of the people of Israel to exist in peace, free from attack or the threat of attack.

2. It is very silly to argue that Israel does not have the death penalty. Count how many Palestinians Israel has killed and how many Israelis Palestine has killed.

It is not silly at all Bridge, either the death penalty exists in the statute books of the State of Israeli or it does not. That is an easily established fact and we all know that it does not. As to counting things as you suggest:

- Count how many times threats of total annihilation have been made by the Arabs of the region against Israel, count how many times threats of total annihilation have been made by the Israelis against the Arabs of the region.

- Count the number of times the Arabs of the region have carried out unprovoked attacks against the Jews of Palestine and against Israel. Count the number of times the Jews of Palestine and the Israelis have carried out unprovoked attacks against the Arabs of the region.

The number of Israelis killed by Palestinians is only as low as it is because the Israeli Government has spent time, money and resources in protecting its citizens, the low number exists despite every attempted means possible being tried by the Palestinians to increase that number

3. As Jackie Walker has correctly said, there is no satisfactory and accepted definition of anti-Semitism - and the extraordinarily expansionist posts above show why. They go even further than the now discredited EUMC definition that I gather was attempted to be thrust down throats at the JLM training session where Jackie Walker was stitched up.

You forgot to add "In her opinion" Bridge. The reports and recommendations from the Inquiries carried out by Baroness Royall and by newly created Baroness Chakrabarti detailed what constitutes unacceptable racist and anti-Semitic behaviour within the Labour Party - The fact that Walker doesn't accept it is a matter for the Labour Party to sort out - They suspended her membership and demoted her.

4. The extreme racism directed against Jackie Walker can be found on almost every page discussing her current suspension and her demotion within Momentum - some are simply over-wrought othodoxy (the sort of post that asserts that she cannot be Jewish because her father rather than her mother was Jewish even though she had other ascendant female Jewish ancestors on her mother's side - but some go much further even than the assertion that she cannot be Jewish because she is black and descend to the sort of blakcup and chimpanzee posts that the US right wing present about the Obamas.

What "extreme racism"??

5. Buggerit I came here to talk about capos, and I have been seduced by right-wing trolls.

"Seduced by right-wing trolls" - grab it while you can it will probably be the best offer you'll get this century.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 08:17 PM

McGrath, you are definitely correct. The Israelis only have to lose once and there will be a bloodbath. I think about the Horns of Hattin with some regularity and shudder. [For those who don't know about the Horns of Hattin, that was the battle which led to the crusader eviction from the Holy Land.]

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 08:03 PM

Troll.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 07:59 PM

Bubo, smear that funky feces, white boy.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 07:41 PM

Troll.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 07:37 PM

This pathetic lunatic has just called Kevin McGrath antisemitic. Of all the people who post here, Kevin is the one who tries, a damn sight harder than I do, to be fair, balanced and measured. Well that does it. This forum is now in terminal disrepute for allowing this sort of vicious nastiness to prevail under the banner of "free speech." In my view, the owner and moderators of this board are seriously remiss in allowing this person to carry on posting. Free speech my arse. Bobad is shitting on free speech more than anyone I've ever come across here. Shame on you, Mudcat, for tolerating his presence. You moan about usual suspects and the like. Well stop bloody moaning and get this bastard out of here, now.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 06:50 PM

Bubo, Lay down the bullshit and smear that funky feces till you die.

with apologies to Rob Parissi

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 06:47 PM

Troll.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 06:31 PM

Troll.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 06:25 PM

He's not the only one.........unfortunately.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 05:07 PM

Ah, Kevin, you old anti-semite, you ! ;>)

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 04:47 PM

It's very understandable the Ottomans would be cautious about foreigners from Western Europe moving into the Holy Land, Christian or Jewish. There was a history of Crusades, a whole series of wars over Turkish occupied Europe, and the whole process of expanding European Colonial Empires in every part of the world.

The idea that the purchase of land by a foreigner would imply a right to evict a tenant farmer would not have been seen favourably by the Ottoman authorities, as also would have been the case be in many parts of Europe. It underlay the turmoil of the Land League movement in Ireland, culminating in reforms that removed this right.

One thing that needs to be appreciated that there is a historical precedent for the establishment of Israel - the Crusader States established in what is now Israel and Lebanon existed for longer than Israel has, and are now merely historical memorie.
Consciousness of this underly and reinforce the feeling that Israel too is a temporary intrusion into the region.

Israel at present does have the possibility of reaching a two-state solution which would ensure the continued existence of a predominently Jewish state. But if that opportunity is not taken there is a real possibility that the experience of the Crusader States could be repeated.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 04:45 PM

If you can't substantiate your claims, you shouldn't have posted rumor & innuendo.

Also, the BDS movement does not claim that "Israel and its existence are to blame for all of the problems of the region". Nor does Black Lives Matter.

But the government of Israel and its stiff-necked bullshit are absolutely responsible for SOME of the problems in the region.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 04:34 PM

Greg, do your own research. Go to Black Lives Matter and cross link it with BDS. Go to the New York Times and follow the lead I suggested above.

I am part of a major educational union and have spent the past two years fighting off "Progressive" academics, some of them Jewish, who believe that Israel and its existence are to blame for all of the problems of the region and who have been attempting to push a BDS resolution through our Solidarity committee.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 03:04 PM

I cannot give you exact citations on either statement

If you can't substantiate your claims, you shouldn't have posted rumor & innuendo.

Or are you channelling Bubo?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 02:59 PM

Fascinating.

Its apparently OK to repeatedly slander all and sundry with false accusations of anti-semitism, but point out this slander and/or object to it and the post miraculously evaporates into thin air.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 02:21 PM

Richard, your use of the word "abandoned" does not reflect reality. The Jews living in the Diaspora [Dispersion] were not allowed to live in the then Palestine territory of the Ottoman Empire. The owners of the land were the Ottomans.
Unpalatable as it is to many, the vast majority of the people living there were tenant farmers until the land was sold from under them. Much of the land in Judea and Samaria was purchased the same way but will undoubtedly be surrendered if there is ever an accommodation between the parties.
There will never be an accommodation unless the Palestinians accept the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state, just as all the land they control exists as Muslim states.
Repeat after me: "If I forget thee, O Jerusalem . . ."

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 01:30 PM

1. We have been over the establishment of Israel many many times. In 1923 and 1947/8 people who had no right to do so awarded land to people who had long ago abandoned that land and had no right to be there. It is too late now to fix that mistake and a solution that accommodates (even if not necessarily satisfies) both the Palestinians and Israel.

2. It is very silly to argue that Israel does not have the death penalty. Count how many Palestinians Israel has killed and how many Israelis Palestine has killed.

3. As Jackie Walker has correctly said, there is no satisfactory and accepted definition of anti-Semitism - and the extraordinarily expansionist posts above show why. They go even further than the now discredited EUMC definition that I gather was attempted to be thrust down throats at the JLM training session where Jackie Walker was stitched up.

4. The extreme racism directed against Jackie Walker can be found on almost every page discussing her current suspension and her demotion within Momentum - some are simply over-wrought othodoxy (the sort of post that asserts that she cannot be Jewish because her father rather than her mother was Jewish even though she had other ascendant female Jewish ancestors on her mother's side - but some go much further even than the assertion that she cannot be Jewish because she is black and descend to the sort of blakcup and chimpanzee posts that the US right wing present about the Obamas.

5. Buggerit I came here to talk about capos, and I have been seduced by right-wing trolls.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 01:27 PM

I cannot give you exact citations on either statement but I believe that if you look in the NY Times about a week ago, key in Brown University and Jewish students you should come up with the second statement. The first has been around for quite a while.
I apologize for the inability.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 01:21 PM

Yes, but only to make the point that it is not antisemitic to criticise Israel, which no-one disputes anyway.

The trouble is, the last part of that sentence isn't actually coorect.

The basis of the confusion is that it is of course true that there are antisemites who do criticise Israel, and whose criticism is founded on hostility to Jews.

There is also a secondary kind of attitude that can be accused of being antisemitic where criticism of Israel potentially leads to hostility towards those who support Israel. If the assumption is made that all Jews everywhere support Israel, that encourages this development. In fact of course that assumption is not true, though it is an assumption encouraged by many Israeli voices. (And even if it were true, the hostility towards those who support Israel would not be justified.)

Inevitably, in a bitter conflict these kind of spreading hatreds arise. It happens in all wars. Palestinians, especially those who have lost family, are likely to feel hatred towards all Israelis, and indeed all Jews. Israelis who have lost family will likely feel hatred towards all Palestinians, and indeed all Arabs, or all Muslims. And it can spread to those outsiders who feel close attachment to those directly involved.

I'd question whether there are many, if any, among Labour supporters who feel any kind of hatred towards Jews as such, or against Muslims as such. There probably are some who feel hostility towards those who are seen as unfairly supportive of Israel, or of Palestine. And that can be seen as anti-semitism, or it's twin, islamophobia.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 01:16 PM

"Religions?"

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 01:15 PM

How many have heard that Black Lives Matter and other progressive groups support BDS because "the Palestinian brothers are suffering under Zionist Israeli occupation."

Source of your quote, please. Not that I disagree with the sentiment - I don't - but you should be able to back this with some context.

Many progressive groups refuse to allow Jews to participate in worthwhile causes unless they disavow Israel and Zionism. This is especially common on college campuses.

If this is true it's very disturbing. If you say that it's common, as opposed to its being just the odd sporadic incident, I should like to hear of some examples of where it's happening, what worthwhile causes the Jews are being excluded from and what precisely is being said to the Jewish victims in question.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 01:06 PM

Apropos of your post EBarnacle, it is worthy of note that in the US and Canada (and I am pretty sure in Europe as well though I don't have those statistics at hand) hate crimes directed at Jews make up more than half of the total number of hate crimes directed at all other religions combined.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 01:01 PM

Keith, if you want this thread to not be about Israel, there is something you have to stop doing. You have to stop rattling on about Israel, telling us straight after you've done that that it isn't about Israel. You're trying to have the last word. You've done that three times in the last 24 hours. It's laughable, Keith.

Unfortunately, and I know it makes you feel uncomfortable (because we know from your long track record that you think that criticism of Israel is antisemitic even though you keep telling us that you don't think it), a discussion of antisemitism in the present context is not possible without bringing Israel, or at least the regime and its supporters, into it. The strongest voices condemning criticism of Israeli policy and claiming that we're deliberately confusing anti-Zionism with antisemitism are coming out of Israel. Much of the controversy over what is and what isn't antisemitism is coming either from Israel or elements of the pro-Israel lobby (including, in the UK, Labour Friends of Israel, for example). That is for you in your discomfort to address and it is not for you to keep trying to shut us up about Israel all the time.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 12:57 PM

Well said, EBarnacle.