Why do well known songs get sung slower?

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: LesB
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 03:27 PM

Whoops! thread creep again. Right at the beginning it was stated that
'a person on the committee of the village hall who doesn't follow folk music at all, but was working behind the bar ' asked the question.
Perhaps the songs he was familiar with, had been performed by Pub singers/Irish pub bands et al, that he had heard in theme pubs / social clubs and the like. Who, in such situations, have a tendency to thrash through the old favorites for the non- folk audiences to clap along with. (usually completly devoid of timing, tempo & any sort of co-ordination).
By the way I completly agree with the previous comments about the benifits of not rushing songs.
Les

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: *Laura*
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 01:56 PM

good point. very good point.

i am just a dappy normal-breather. :-)

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 29 Sep 04 - 04:02 AM

Ah, but you woldn't, *Laura* - that's the whole point of circular breathing!

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: *Laura*
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 03:55 PM

we'd faint from lack of breath!

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 09:49 AM

Woodwind players should learn circular breathing, then there'd be no problem!

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 06:09 AM

'why don't melodeon players give woodwind players time to breathe in sessions?'

Because it messes up the beat!

Actually, the woodwind player should take the time to breathe by shortening a note somewhere. With a really good player the breathing can be used to rhythmically emphasise the tune.

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 05:08 AM

PB, I discovered years ago (when I was learning to frail) that you can play slow: you just have to play twice as many beats. It still sounds fast, but everyone has to sing really slow. The overal effect is pretty awful, and you'll find that people will actually prefer you to play "properly".

Steve

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: PennyBlack
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 04:48 AM

as a Banjo Player - I was wondering why everyone sings and play so slow as well ;O)

Pete

PB

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 04:11 AM

I've had occasion more than once to exhort the audience to "try and keep up" or "wait for me!" -- they can get to far in front or behind.

Not so long back I decided to to dig up The Jug o'Punch, taking it nice and slow as a "proper" song instead of a jolly romp with an old favourite. It worked reasonably well, although the speed was commented on afterwards; I don't think I got anyone to see it in a new light, though.

And many years back, when I was still serving out my apprenticeship at the Songsmiths Folk Club, a singer appealed to the audience between verses not to drag the chorus out so much, as it "just sort of peters out." Came a cry from our guest performer, Martin Winsor: "Peters out? I'm all in favour of that!"

Steve

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 03:45 AM

Foolestroupe - I think you have a point. As a chorister, I was told to sing along with the music, not the audience, whoops, sorry, congregation. As our organ had a 1.15 second delay between the keys being struck and the sound reaching us (not a big church, just a strange arrangement where the organ console was next to the choir and the pipes 80ft away at the other end of the church!), it got quite difficult at times. Even the audience, whoops sorry, congregation got ahead of us at times! The three were in perfect syncronicity round about the 12th pew back!

Consequently, I come in fairly rapidly, quite often alone - (something that shows up quite well on a certain recording of 'Sunday Half Hour' from Dorchester, circa 1988) and sing to the accompaniment, rather than to rest of the singers. It helps being a loudmouth.

And as for the comment from Manitas - well, that just goes to prove that he plays an instrument that does not require breath control! One could just as easily start a thread on 'why don't melodeon players give woodwind players time to breathe in sessions?'

LTS

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 02:39 AM

As an ex-church organist I was given one tip when starting out.

Ignore the congregation. Set a reasonable pace - not racing and not dragging - and keep to it. They will catch up - they even prefer a good pace - no-one really likes the ever slowing down dirge pace...

This ever slowing down pace is caused by the organist listening for the congregation to respond to the played notes - because of distances in a large church the audio delay is noticeable.

Perhaps similar things can be happening when folk music gets slowed down...

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: Rasener
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 01:19 AM

Strollin'
I didn't get any examples, but I am beginning to think that it may have been from other evenings as well. She was probably generalising.
When I next see her, I will see if I can pin the numbers down.

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: Richard Atkins
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 08:20 PM

Kitty. I mentioned that on my last note on this thread. Singers should lip read the leader of the song and the leader can lead as is best for the company. There is nothing worse than a group of singers who after a few pints hear their own voices together and DRAG   THE   SONG. If a venue is crowded and you are at the other end of the room the lips are the conductor. Not those around you. Perhaps there should be a Get Songs Up To Speed Thread :>)

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 04:22 PM

LtS - it's not just a question of listening to whoever's leading the song and chorus, because that already introduces a delay - you need, if you can, to watch the singers, read their lips and synchronise!

Kitty

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 03:37 PM

I also think that many of us are of the persuasion that each person who performs a song should put their individual stamp on it. We're not so hidebound by 'the record' as, for instance, a pop performer might be so we slow down or speed up a song as we feel it - there are several in my set that I vary the speed on, for instance '45 Years'.

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 03:33 PM

Did she give any examples Villan? I wasn't aware of any songs that were performed 'slowed-down'. I'd be interested to hear which ones they were - might give us a clue to what (if anything) was going on there? (And if any were mine, I might be able to give an answer!).
JB :0)

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: Rasener
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 03:30 PM

Its a newish club (7 months). A lot of listeners do not want to sing, so it is the artist not the audience.

Its really nice and fascinating to get such interesting comments from everybody.

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 02:52 PM

I find that I often play too slow when first learning a piece -- talking about the guitar part here, which determines the tempo of a self-accompanied song -- but eventually start playing too fast after I have learned the mechanics of playing the desired notes/chords through many repetitions.

It seems to be more difficult to slow down after developing some facility at playing a song than it was to gain speed while learning.

It may be that, in making a deliberate effort to control tempo, a performer might wind up playing more slowly than originally intended. Maybe?

Perhaps it was pure accident that one person commented on songs she noticed as having been played slower than normal. On another night, another casual listener might have commented on one or two familiar songs being performed faster than expected. Unless, that is, more of your regulars there at Market Rasen belong to the slow-down school than to the speeder-uppers. You know that better than I...

;^)

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 08:17 AM

I agree with Harvey - it's the audience milking the harmonies and hanging on for a long as possible. It might sound great AT THAT INSTANT but it really mucks up the song as a whole.

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 07:51 AM

I;m with Harvey on this one. Shanties particularly have a rhythm which is mean to match the work being done. It comes as quite a surprise when you are soloing at stamp-and-go rate and you find the chorus is being sung at capstan or downton pump speed. I have a theory that its doen to let the chorus joiners have as much of the song as possible but I'm still going to sing "Slowing down to Lethargy" at a rollicking pace to show up the irony :D

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 03:22 AM

A lot of it is to do with those singing along not actually listening to the person leading.

I recently had a major problem with someone not listening when I did a song to a well known tune. One person was just not listening to me. He sang the "original" words, very LOUDLY - whether he was trying to make a point or not I don't know. Maybe he just thought I hadn't learned the song properly as he knew it. Whatever, he didn't LISTEN to what I, as the soloist was singing. It might not have been so bad but it wasn't even a chorus joining in type song!

It's one of the reasons I don't really like singing chorus songs. I sing a verse at one speed (say, 45rpm) and the chorus will come in at a different speed (say, 33rpm, for those among us who remember vinyl!). No matter how hard you try to speed them up, when you are one soprano against 15-20 bass and baritone, you're stuffed.

Having said that, I do enjoy singing along with others and may well be guilty of slowing down, but I've never done it deliberately. It's as Morty says, you need time to get your harmonising self together.

LTS

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 12:30 AM

I like what harvey andrews said ("I find it's the audience singing that slows a chorus song down.") and also what Leadfingers said ("My own case , IF I am nervous I have a tendency to do things too fast"). I will launch into, say, Barrett's Privateers at what I think is about the speed Stan Rogers did it on Between the Breaks, and the audience will come in on the chorus and slow it wayyyy down, and I get a bit flustered. Maybe in my nervousness I was tearing through it and the audience was just returning it to where it was supposed to be. Maybe I was doing it at Stan Rogers' pace but the audience, which hasn't practiced it as much as I have, doesn't know it well enough to do it that fast. Maybe the audience just likes it slower than I like it.

Was there much discussion here about Sinead O'Connor's folk CD of a couple years back? I loved the choice of material, found some of the musical accompaniment very tasteful and some very distracting, but most of all was struck by how slow some of the renditions were. "Peggy Gordon" shouldn't stretch to five-and-a-half minutes (in my opinion).

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 09:35 PM

"...the faster they can play, surely the more masterly they must be..."

"The notes I handle no better than many pianists.
But the pauses between the notes --
ah, that is where the art resides!"

Pianist Artur Schnabel wasn't really a folk singer, but I think he adds to two viewpoints in this thread.

The first, more musical, is that it's not just the tempo (and not just the notes, not just the lyrics, not just the instrument) -- it's all the pieces in relation to one another. Haven't you ever heard an old favorite sung by someone other than your favorite singer, and had an epiphany from an unexpected change? I've known the Gaelic song "Ho Ro Mo Nighean Donn Bhóidheach" since childhood, and in Cape Breton it's usually uptempo. The Rankins recorded a much slower version, coloring the song with poignancy.

Schnabel's other point, and not the one I think he had in mind, is that some performers get very artsy. They've fallen in love with the song, or with the tune, or with their own voice, or with their own playing, and get carried away when perhaps they should be carried out.

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: Richard Atkins
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 08:45 PM

Singers should take cognicance of those thay are singing to as they sing. If the chorous gets dragged down on speed as people enjoy,then the singer can bring it up to pace on the next verse. The meaning of songs are more emphasised at a slower pace. Tiz up to the singer to judge.

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 08:00 PM

What's the hurry?

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: Joybell
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 07:36 PM

I agree with all that's been said already but there's another point, I think. Lately, by which I mean in the last 10 years or so, it's been fashionable, with some popular singers, to present songs in a very slow, and I would say, pretentious manner. Here we had "Waltzing Matilda" performed, at a big public event, done so slowly that it took 15 minutes to sing. Granted it's a bit sad, but 15 minutes!!
Doesn't answer the original question exactly. Joy

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 06:56 PM

When I listen to singers like Les Sullivan , I am always impressed by the way he keeps the tempo down . My own case , IF I am nervous I have a tendency to do things too fast , which is a Discipline Problem . A lot of songs DO work better at a Steady Pace , so people can appreciate the Lyric - After all , the SONG is the important thing
in Folk , In fact the same goes for tunes - Played TOO fast a tune loses all its nuances for the sake of showing off .

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: harvey andrews
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 06:05 PM

I find it's the audience singing that slows a chorus song down.
I sing;
"First you lose the rhy-ming"
The audience sings;
"First you lose the rhhhhyyymmiiiiiinngg" and stretch the last word right out. I'm half way through the next line before they finish!

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: BusyBee Paul
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 05:38 PM

Achtung! Thread divert alert!

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 05:32 PM

I agree with Morty, but some singers overdo it, and kill the song by slowing it down to a funereal pace (hence the parody, "Slowing down to lethargy").

Kitty

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 05:25 PM

gotta gooo tebed loik. Gotta very imporetant final job interview tommora. must get me buty sleep in our kid. See yer in the mornin loik

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: the fence
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 05:09 PM

langwiches wereent never mi bestest subgect vylan

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: the fence
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 05:07 PM

The beauty of singing something or playing something yourself is that you can do it how you want to and if others dont like it then tough.

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 05:06 PM

the fence
You are writing in German, but my comment was in Dutch. :-) The two languages are not the same, even if most people think they are.

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 05:04 PM

I'm a dunce at this Auldtimer, just somebody running a folk club, who cannot sing/play or dance.

However your comment "but steady pace, brings out the best in the majority of songs" makes a lot of sense. That comment could also be applied to a lot of things in life :-)

I think what this person heard was a song(s) that she knew and they were more uptempo than the folk singers version, and she just wanted to know why folk singers do that, rather than sticking with the uptempo concept.

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: the fence
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 04:59 PM

"Das ist nein gut" Villan

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 04:58 PM

"sodemieter off" the fence hahahaha - bet you don't know what I am saying there eh. LOL Might tell you one day he he.

Thats Ok Brucie :-)

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: GUEST,Auldtimer
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 04:56 PM

The difference between a singer and a musician that sings is .... The musician wants their audence to hear the tune, or rather how masterly they are at playing, their expensive/top of the range/latest model/vintage instrument, and the faster they can play, shurely the more masterly they must be. A real test of a musicians quality is in how they mannage a slow air. A real singer sings for the song to be heard and enjoyed and the timeing, tempo and pace are important parts of that process of building a bond between singer and listener and a slow, but steady pace, brings out the best in the majority of songs. Try this yourself with one of your songs and let the song find the timeing that suits it. As for ballads being slow? It' time a lot of you started listening to REAL TRADITIONAL SONG and REAL SINGERS.

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: the fence
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 04:51 PM

As an accomplished singer yourself Villan(so we are told) you should automatically know what the expression means hahahahahaha

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 04:48 PM

Morticia
"truly get down with your harmonising self "

not completely sure what you mean there - is that a singers expression?

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 04:46 PM

Villan,

I was not at all offended by the initial post. You are one of my favourite people here, so keep at it buddy. In fact, sometimes people do whole sets that reflect a mode of thinking that is 'down' and 'blue'. Maybe that's because 'folkies' tend to be a bit more introspective than most other musicians--(I hope I have NOT incurred the wrath of blues singers with this remark. Deep dung, deep dung. And then that remark will get people angry because the purpose of 'da blues' is to get OUT of the doldrums via the music. Certain days it jus' don' pay to get outta bed.)

BM

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: the fence
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 04:43 PM

nice answer morticia I agree wholeheartedly

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: Morticia
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 04:38 PM

actually I think you might be overlooking a central issue which is, IMO, singers love to sing and a well known song can allow them to explore harmonies and stuff......but you need to slow it down to truly get down with your harmonising self and enjoy the moment

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 04:36 PM

I know. It s a guden though. It will be very interesting to see what all the artists do and why. It also helps me.

As they say, sometimes the silliest or most stupid question turns out to be the best :-)

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: the fence
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 04:32 PM

You started something now Villan!!!

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: sharyn
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 04:31 PM

How do you know that "the artist" slowed the songs down? The question is "slower than what" or "slower than whom?" Do you mean slower than a particular recording? Many songs exist in multiple versions at many tempi. Varying tempo is part of interpretation.

As a singer, I like to linger a bit. As a guitarist, I'm not up to uptempo work, so I don't do it. In my case slowness is sometimes a preference and sometimes a necessity. I don't like to be rushed in singing a song, but neither do I like to be dragged down by a chorus of loud singers dragging out the ends of my lines -- sometimes groups slow or rush a tempo, especially with a capella material

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: *Laura*
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 04:30 PM

I do my best...

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 04:27 PM

So MoH

Its about trying to get audiences to listen to the lyrics of the song, and by slowing it down, people are able to digest the words and get a better understanding of the song.

Have I got that correct?

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 04:23 PM

Blimey this could be the quickest growing thread on Mudcat :-)

Good point Laura and leans a little to what I was trying to say.

Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 04:22 PM

You could just as well say "why do well known songs get sung so fast", because that happens too - in both cases, it all depends on the singers and the songs.

But singing a song that people normally gallop through without thinking about it, and doing it at a pace where the words actually get listened to - that can be worth doing sometimes.

For example, I remember once hearing the Rocky Raod to Dublin sung slowly, and it brought it out that it isn't just a jolly romp, there's a level of meaning in which it's pretty heavy stuff about emigration and what it involves, and what it does to people. Not the only level of meaning, but one that is lurking there, below the fun stuff.