Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots

Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots
From: Bert
Date: 23 Sep 99 - 01:19 PM

I would say that if you've asked him nicely and that didn't work then you should just stop singing and tell him to shut up.

Johnny Cash did a similar thing at 'San Quentin' and the rest of the audience cheered.

Bert.

Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots
From: Liam Devlin
Date: 23 Sep 99 - 12:47 PM

Maybe I am being repititious, but sounds like this guy needs to be, as we say in Texas, Slapped Upside the Head. Rude is rude - if he's being rude let him know it, in no uncertain terms. He'll get over it, and so will you!

Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 23 Sep 99 - 12:32 PM

Sometimes the other musicians (and singers, believe it or not) at a session can be totally oblivious. The one time I stopped in the middle of a song because of the volume of talking and being ignored by some of the instrumentalists (one of whom ordered dinner), I got an incredible amount of static. My husband called me unprofessional (although he's done it upon occasion at the same session) and the people who were trying to listen were hurt, asking me what they had done to get me upset, etc.

On the basis of that incident, I try to just ignore the interference (the location of our session is a marvelous place to practice projection) and concentrate on the song. I've been reassured many times that, despite appearances, *someone* is listening & enjoying!

(It's a real pity that someone disturbed the singing of "Harbors of Home"!!)

But I don't know what other advice to offer, if talking to the person privately and publicly doesn't seem to work.

Linn

Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots
From:
Date: 23 Sep 99 - 11:45 AM

This rude bastard will respond well only to direct confrontation. So what if you get mad and don't say it as eloquently as you would like. He's being an idiot and a selfish pr*ck. Tell him so. If he's worried about how the others will take your public criticism; it's because he knows you're right! ... and lead by example, the way you behave and respect other's contributions will certainly be noticed - and is probably already understood.

Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots
From: bbelle
Date: 22 Sep 99 - 07:19 PM

When I was singing professionally, I sang mostly in bars and had to learn to not be upset when someone talked. But there is a limit. I remember one occasion when a man was singing along to every song I sang and decided he would join me in front of the mike. I asked him if he knew "If I Were a Carpenter," and when he replied "no," I said "Good, that's what I'm going to sing next." He and his little group left and the night continued on very well without him. Another occasion was when I was singing at a local bar and there was a woman sitting right next to me and she sang every song ... offkey. After a while, I leaned over and said "I'm flattered that you want to sing along with me, but would like it to be intune." That all may sound callous, however, these two individuals really were not very pleasant, they were not regular customers, they were barhopping, and they had no respect for, not only me, but for the patrons who had come to hear me. I realize this isn't your same situation, but rudeness is rudeness. If this person is a regular at your song circle, they are well aware of the protocol. I have become weary of "talking" over everything that happens in life. I think I would simply say "I'm sorry you were offended by me because it was not my intention." I think talking it over won't solve anything because his ego is too big and he probably won't get it. Of course, I don't know any of these people and my rhetoric may just be totally off kilter ... moonchild

Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots
From: GeorgeH
Date: 22 Sep 99 - 02:19 PM

Sorry to be flipant in a serious discussion, but annap, you've just reminded me of the occasion where Martin Simpson asked the crowd at the bar - across the PA - whether his performing was disturbing their conversation . . (this did lead to SOME improvement! And its recollection has brought a grin to my face.)

G.

Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 22 Sep 99 - 01:51 PM

Although my reaction in the first instance would be along the stop and stare lines that Jeri suggested (you often find that it is sheer rudeness on somebodys part that others will join in with the stare). We don't have singing sessions round here but in the music sessions we do get the odd song and as a general rule, the players will all very quickly support the singer and shut somebody up who rudely makes a noise over the top of a singer.

It seems that this one has already got very personal already and I would suggest as George has that the best plan is to talk it over with other members of your singing group first.

Jon

Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots
From: Allan C.
Date: 22 Sep 99 - 01:41 PM

I agree with George H.. Since I wasn't there to see and hear the whole thing I am not sure whether I could give objective advice. We had a similar guy at Annap's gathering. I think he may have had a drink or two and forgot his manners. He crumpled a couple of beer cans while some songs were being performed during the round-robin session. Luckily, he was way in the back and was not a total disruption for everyone (I think). Fortunately, his wife, who was apparently sensitive to his behavior, spoke to him after the second crunching and all was well.

Perhaps a conversation with someone well acquainted with this guy's partner would be productive. You might at least get the benefit of some more insight as to why this guy is the way he is. I mean, if you learn that the guy is a chronic ass, then further conversation will likely be of no use. Or you might discover that he is totally puzzled about the whole thing and would like to work it out with you.

Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots
From: annamill
Date: 22 Sep 99 - 01:40 PM

Jeri and Blessings, Barbara. I agree totally with stopping till he shuts up. Rudeness when someone is performing is one of my greatest pet peeves.

When I had my first gathering, we had a man who played the tub base...AND TALKED INCESSENTLY when we were trying to listen to great music (only in my opinion). I finally faced him down and told him he was as great an oratator(SP) as Mark Twain. He was insulted and was going to leave, but I told him I didn't want him to leave, just enjoy the music and that I had just paid him a great compliment. He stayed and he shut up. I didn't ask him to the next gathering tho.

Next time this rudeman (new word) talks, stop, ask him if you were disturbing him and if it would be alright with him if you continue. Then wait for an answer. He won't talk again, and he'll get over the embarrassment.

Love, annap (with her dander up today) (What does that mean, exactly, I wonder)

Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots
From: sophocleese
Date: 22 Sep 99 - 01:39 PM

I agree that talking it over with other singers in the group would be useful. In a song circle I go to we lost several people because of one rude man who wouldn't keep quiet. I lost my temper one day at him actually and stopped my song halfway through to tell him to be quiet. I'm still embarassed and annoyed with myself for doing it and wouldn't recommend ot to others as a solution. I kept going to the circle because I knew that others were irritated by him so I wasn't struggling alone and therefore I didn't have to take it personally.

This man that you are having trouble with does at least wish to talk about the problem which is a good thing and privately he may be more amenable to sweet reason than publicly. If he continues to bother you afterwards do your best to ignore him because he's being rude and seek support from others in the group. Another person asking him politely to lower his voice because they want to hear you sing might do more.

Another quick thought that occurs to me is that he may be losing some of his hearing and therefore be unable to judge volume. Are there other occasions when his volume seems inappropriate for the circumstances? Whatever happens keep on singing and singing and singing.

Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots
From: Barbara
Date: 22 Sep 99 - 01:34 PM

Yeah, Jeri, thanks. I've been trying to get up my courage to stop and stare at him when it happens. I'm working on it.
You know, I really think he talked without thinking, though maybe that particular verse made him uncomfortable. I'm pretty sure he really doesn't remember doing it.
You know how, when someone in the room is doing something really gauche, how everyone will sort of put their blinders on and move away, while erasing the event from their consciousness? I think that's what he does. I make him feel ill at ease, so he erases me.

You want to come along to this meeting with me and be my moral support, Jeri?
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots
From: MMario
Date: 22 Sep 99 - 01:31 PM

Is there possibly a third party that could intercede?

Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Sep 99 - 01:25 PM

First thing is, realize you're right. You asked him not to talk while you were singing, and he ignored you. You did so privately, and it failed to get his attention. Ask him why he continued, knowing it bothered you. Ask him if he doesn't think it's obvious to everyone else that he does it. You should be polite when talking to him about it, but whatever happens, do NOT let him make you feel like you did something wrong. You are not the party who should be on the defensive - he is.

(I'd personally just stop singing in the middle of the song and stare at him until he shut up.)

Jeri, who's full of advice....and other stuff.

Subject: RE: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots
From: GeorgeH
Date: 22 Sep 99 - 01:19 PM

Forget the thicker skin - rudeness is rudeness. But I suggest you talk over how you're feeling with some of the other singers at this event; they may have a useful "take" on it!

Good luck, and don't let 'em grind you down!

G.

Subject: Music Etiquette Question -- Blind Spots
From: Barbara
Date: 22 Sep 99 - 01:06 PM

Hi crew. I could use some advice.
There's a pubsing I go to every couple weeks, and every so often one of the other singers talks while I'm singing. Actually there's a certain amount of conversation during songs, usually whispered, but this particular guy ... let me give you an example. I was singing Harbors of Home and as I was doing the verse
"It seems like it was yesterday I heard the church bells toll
And the time it goes so slowly as the hours slowly roll
They tell me passing days will surely heal a wounded soul
But my tears would fill the harbors of home..".

...when he called to the waiter across the room, asked for his glass and his wife's to be filled, and then requested a menu "because he wanted to order some food to eat, thank you" ... all in the volume of voice you use to speak to someone 12 feet away. I got rattled and blew the words.

So I've asked him a couple times if he'd not do this while I'm singing, and he says, "Do I do that? I don't remember it. Sure, I'll try not to."(The example happened after the second time I asked him)
Last night he was singing something and forgot a word. I supplied it, and he said "Stop! Don't do that". I clapped my hands over my mouth. Then when he finished, I said "Tell you what. I won't supply your words, and you don't talk while I sing." I think it's the same thing. My filling in the words discombobulated him, made him lose his place.

Well, I hurt his feelings and pissed him off. He told me that after the sing. Now he wants to meet with me and talk because I criticized him in front of his friends and because I keep bringing up this stuff about his talking.

Guys, I need to know what works. Probably my best hope of singing with this man is to NOT TAKE IT PERSONALLY, and let what he does blow on by. I think I make him uncomfortable, so he just doesn't see me (I become invisible). What happened last night will probably make him more uncomfortable and exacerbate the behavior that bugs me. Dang.
But I keep being hurt by this. I think maybe it happens because I'm female, and maybe not as good a singer as he. But it keeps wiping me out. I take it as criticism, whether I want to or not.
Help. How does one cultivate a thicker skin?
Blessings,
Barbara