BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 10:32 AM

Ok. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: GUEST,Ragnar
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 10:24 AM

CC:

Dur to your knowledge on the subject, you are hereby appointed as the cheif negotiator to sit down and sort things out with the terrorists in Iraq.

R

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 01:02 AM

They wouldn't be doing that in Iraq if we hadn't invaded and occupied their country. So we are not the best ones to do the work of winning the minds and hearts of the people there. They don't trust us, and with good reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: GUEST,Ragnar
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 11:30 PM

Did you see on TV that the terrorists in Faluja had wired a youth center there with explosives?

Evidently their plan was to blow it up with kids in there and blame it on the US.

The US military found it and disarmed the explosives.

We really need to sit down with these people and sort things out.

R

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: Stu
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 11:56 AM

Agreed CarolC.

In the end, the only way to sort this out will be when everyone sits down and talks about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 11:52 AM

Bottom line is that the war in Iraq is part of the war on terrorisim.

If we attacked and attempted to wipe out every country in which training of "terrorists" is happening/has happened, we would end up like the former Soviet Union in pretty short order (ie: bankrupt and falling apart). If that's our approach to ending terrorism, we're in deeeeeep do-do.

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: GUEST,Ragnar
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 09:25 AM

CC: I see. You are saying it had nothingto do with 9/11. I was thinging about all the antiwar stuff claiming that Bush and his administration said Saddam was connected with 9/11 which I cannot find any evidence to support.

How ever I have found plenty of edivence to support the fact that Saddam did train terrorists in Iraq. There is indirect edivence that Al Quaeda trained there at Salmam Pak

Bottom line is that the war in Iraq is part of the war on terrorisim.

Rag momma rag

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: Wolfgang
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 07:06 AM

I should have thought of that site for comparison, thanks Thomas. Yes, they have a sound approach and I also trust their numbers. The only quibble I have with them that I do not see, even in the small print, whether they count the suicide bomber also among civilian deaths. And I'd like to see a note how many of the civilian deaths are insurgents. I neither do believe that the US airstrikes always hits innocents nor that they never kill innocents.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 09:39 PM

Iraqi civilian deaths since the US began it's 'adventure' in Iraq. I trust these figures.
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 08:24 PM

Who said it had anything to do with the 9/11 attack? Show me. I have looked and I can't find it.

Who said what had anything to do with the 9-11 attacks? I don't understand the question. Are you asking, "who said Iraq had anything to do with the 9-11 attacks"?

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: GUEST,Ken
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 06:49 PM

How many Iraqis were killed by their own Sadamists or imported terrorists since the invasion was declared over?

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: DougR
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 06:44 PM

And the 300,000 or so bodies found in mass graves in Iraq? What about them? Bobert would like to see Saddam back in power. Your off your meds again, right Bobert.

Thanks pdq for pointing out the discrepency in the report. Mudcatters will see, however, only what they want to see.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: GUEST,Ragnar
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 06:38 PM

nothing whatever to do with the attack on 9-11

CC: You brought it up. Clarify it. Who said it did?

R

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 06:23 PM

This thread is about Iraq, Ragnar. And you are making statements about how people are motivated by the "kill or be killed" instinct. If you're not talking about how the US has behaved with regard to Iraq, what are you talking about?

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: GUEST,Ragnar
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 05:52 PM

Who said it had anything to do with the 9/11 attack? Show me. I have looked and I can't find it.

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 12:19 AM

Yes, but instead of striking back at the people who committed the attacks on 9-11, for instance, instead of capturing Osama Bin Laden, we attacked Iraq, which had nothing whatever to do with the attack on 9-11. We committed a heinous terrorist attack on their soil, and we created many new "terrorists" (in this case, people in Iraq whose kill or be killed instincts have been activated by an unprovoked attack on their homes).

Anyway, we say we are a nation of laws. Vigilanti justice is against the law in the US, and it is not a wise thing to practice in the world at large. It makes the problem worse rather than solving the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: GUEST,Ragnar
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 09:11 AM

To me, there seems to be a delicate balance in people's toughts on terrorisim.

When terrorisim trikes close to home, people seem to loose their fear and they want to strike back. Their basic instincts tell them to kill or be killed.

After the danger passes, their kill or be killed instinct dies down and a instinct to avoid any chances of being harmed in order to preserve the current level of comfort and peace.

We are currently in the danger passed state now.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 12:14 PM

Ah-hah! Thanks for that tip. I did indeed misconstrue what he said. The Russians are fighting a war with the Chechens over territory, power, and resources, and both sides are in one way or another inflicting horrible suffering on each other. I'd call that terrorism against terrorism.

I regard people in a national uniform who terrorize to be terrorists, just the same as I regard non-uniformed guerilla fighters to be terrorists. The intention of both IS to terrorize, and thereby to win. The one side kills children by taking them hostage in a school. The other side kills children by bombing and shelling towns and cities with expensive long-distance weaponry. The end result, for the children, is much the same.

It's all terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 12:04 PM

it may be more than that. Depleted uranium is a time-bomb which will affect future Iraqi populations. Anyone want to speculate on Iraqi wounded?

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 11:47 AM

LH I think he means the Russian City.

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 11:41 AM

It may trouble you, Ragnar, that I don't even know what Beslan is. That's because I live a drug-free life, and I advise you to do the same if you want to preserve a functioning immune system.

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 11:36 AM

Negative attitude, Ragnar? You're the one who is spamming this forum with bullshit propaganda against Kerry. Threatening me with references to Beslan just shows you to be the terrorist that you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: Wolfgang
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 09:27 AM

In particular, the further back in time the infant death occurred, the less likely it was to be reported. The recall period of this survey, 2·7 years, was longer than most surveys of crude mortality. Thus, infant deaths from earlier periods might be under-reported, and recent infant deaths might be more readily reported, producing an apparent but spurious increase in infant mortality. We do not think that this is a major factor in this survey for two reasons. First, the preconflict infant mortality rate (29 deaths per 1000 livebirths) we recorded is similar to estimates from neighbouring countries.

That's interesting. They say that the pre-war death rates were not higher than in neighboring countries. Does that mean the old figures about the effect of the sanctions were inflated?

They rely nearly exclusively upon self reports for data gathering. As a commentary in the Lancet says: ...clearly the potential for recall bias among those interviewed.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 09:04 AM

OK, I hear you Mick. (Said this at the time but must have pressed the wrong button.) There is certainly a tendency when thinking of Ireland-related violence for many in the UK to think only IRA, to the extent of overlooking the sickening actions of some loyalist factions.
Right now, ultra-right loyalist paramilitaries are beating up immigrants in Belfast, Craigavon, Ballymena etc at the rate of scores a month, and it is barely mentioned in the London papers.

It is true that most immigrants are being settled in loyalist estates (because that is where the available housing stock happens to be), and I don't know what reception they would get in nationalist areas. But that doesn't alter the wrongness of what the loyalist thugs are doing, nor does it excuse the deafening silence from those elected to represent them - to which silence the paramilitary-turned-politician David Ervine is an honorable and admirable exception). Sorry for wandering off-topic here.

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: GUEST,Ragnar
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 08:48 AM

CC

So how come you are the one with the negative attitude?

Some Beslan would fix you right up.

R

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 12:35 AM

Looks like I cross-posted with you, LH.

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 12:30 AM

The terrorists are getting into your head. They are good at it and they will dominate your life if you let them.

Terrorism is the use of tactics that cause terror in people for the purpose of controling their behavior. By that definition, Bush is one of the world's formost terrorists. Operation "Shock and Awe" was specifically intended to cause just this sort of effect, not only on the Iraqis, but on the whole world, to show them who is boss. That's terrorism on a very large scale. It's your head the terrorists have gotten into, Ragnar.

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 12:09 AM

Ragnar - You are the one giving comfort to terrorists...terrorists who launch an unprovoked attack upon a small country over a nonexistent threat and totally wreck the place in order to steal its oil. Those terrorists deliver their orders out of the Oval Office and Downing Street, and they are the same people who originally funded and trained Osama Bin Laden and his Mujahedin fighters who later became Al Queda. In those days Osama was killing Russians, so that was considered okay. They also funded and armed Saddam when he was killing Iranians and Kurds back in the 80's, and they supplied him with chemical weapons to do it.

The people you think of as "fighting terrorism" are themselves the biggest terrorists around right now. Osama is just one of their former employees and so is Saddam.

If I may quote you... "The terrorists are getting into your head.
They are good at it and they will dominate your life if you let them." You said it! They get into your head every day when you turn on your TV and listen to your one-sided corporate controlled media bombard you with fear propaganda designed to make you support the invasion of small, weak foreign countries who are no threat to you whatsoever.

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 11:09 PM

Well, I've been trying to figgure out just what is in Rag's head. Fuzzy math? Terrorism?

Nah. Nothin' much there at all beyond a few things Rag has read off some bumber stickers.

I asked Rag some tougher questions on another thread and, well, Rag wouldn't (or won't) answer any of them.

I'm afraid that for folks expecting the second coming of Teribus in Rag they are going to be woefully disappointed... I know I am...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: GUEST,Bunky
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 10:07 PM

Fuzzy math or propaganda?

Good one coming from you Ragnar. Fuzzy math, in case you don't recall what you said.

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: GUEST,Ragnar
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 09:32 PM

CC:

There were supposed to be "millions of innocent people killed" during the invasion. The doomsayers are still a million or so short in their prediction from the invasion till now.
Fuzzy math or propaganda?

The terrorists are getting into your head.
They are good at it and they will dominate your life if you let them.

R

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: redhorse
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 05:37 PM

Funding terrorists means sharing the responsibility for their actions. Saying "other people do it as well" is irrelevant. I'm just as happy to condemn those who support Chechen, UDA or any other terrorists with funds. I've nothing against the Boston in particular,but neither do I excuse them.


In fact I chose my particular example to highlight the ludicrous nature of the "we'll kill them before they kill us" attitude. Terrorists don't exist in isolation, and the roots stretch down into respectable populations. Kill the visible terrorists and the good citizens of wherever will just fund other individuals.
nick

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 02:44 PM

Peter, I agree that you detail all the factions. My point is that I tire of all this finger pointing at "good folks in Boston" with no talk of the support that the IRA gets from Irish British folks and no talk of the other half of the "terrorism" in the North. I just don't believe that is going to lead folks where they ought to go. And for British folks to talk about the "US war" defies any sort of logic. This foolish President of ours could not have prosecuted the war if the British Government, led by Tony Blair, hadn't lent credibility by going along. And while listening to the BBC last night I heard a fascinating report on MI6 intel which was the basis of both sides pursuing the WMD argument.

The point, Peter, is that nothing is helped by the use of phoney predicates. Hopefully a good portion of this will be solved tomorrow here in the States. Then its up to you folks to hold the appropriate folks over there.

And I have always said that the targetting of civilians, whether in Warrington or Omagh, is senseless horseshit and deserves condemnation. And it doesn't matter if it is abetted by the "good citizens of Boston" or by the British intelligence and military community.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 01:56 PM

I see Big Mick is still a bit picky about when to call a terrorist a terrorist. In my book all the wrongs of the loyalist factions, and those in British governmental agencies that aided them, don't begin to justify targeting innocent civilians in Warrington. And it is a fact that large numbers of otherwise decent-minded Americans helped to fund such terrorist atrocities over many years.

Greg, where do you get the idea that arial bombardment is not capable of killing people in large numbers? More significantly you take no account of the enormous damage that has been caused to basic infrastructure. Water supply, hospitals, etc. (The occupiers have still not restored electircity supply to pre-war levels.)

A link has been provided to the Lancet report. I suggest you read it. From memory I think it estimated that one in every 20 households in Iraq has lost someone since the war started. I too find this incredible, but I am inclined to believe it. (They used a randomly distributed sample of 1,000 interviewees. This is comparable with the size of sample used for many political-opinion surveys in the UK, the results of which are extrapolated on to a three-times larger population.) In some ways the Lancet erred on the side of caution, for instance by excluding the returns from interviewees in Falluja where the rate of fatalities has been even higher than in Iraq a whole.

The estimate of 98,000 fatalities is almost certainly nearer the truth than the idle guesstimates we have had from the coalition, which for all the science that went into them might as well have been plucked from thin air. The organisations behind the work published by the Lancet have at least shown that even with extremely limited funds and resources it is perfectly feasible to do a more thorough job than had been attempted hitherto. The occupying forces really can't complain, given that they chose, as a matter of policy, not to do the job themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 12:22 PM

You think you can help your man Bush win an election by calling everyone in the US who disagrees with his policies a terrorist, Ragnar?

Try telling that to the servicemen and women and the families of servicemen and women who disagree with Bush's policies:

Military Families Speak Out

Iraq Veterans Against the War

Veterans for Common Sense

Operation Truth


You're not very bright are you, Ragnar? I think Bush would be better off without your help.

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 09:48 AM

It sounds like a reasonable probably number to me, given the scale of fighting since the invasion began and the destruction of basic infrastructure, hospitals, etc...

But what does it matter anyway exactly what the number is? The point is, a whole lot of innocent people have died unnecessarily due to an illegal and unjustified attack on a small country by a superpower (and a former superpower). And a lot more innocent people are going to die before it's over. Iraq was not responsible for 911.

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 09:31 AM

It is said what feelings about this war has done to standards in the media and politics. An example is the readiness of the anti-war camp to accept and quote without question a survey that suggests 100,000 people ghave died since the war, the vast majority due to American bombing. have a little think. Furstly, bombing is not a very accurate way of killing people outright...you are far more likely to injure them. 1 in 5 deathrate might be a ballpark estimate. So let us guesstimate that 500,000 have benn injured be the Americans since the war(this is SINCE the war remember, we are not counting war casualties are we?).
There are about 20million people in Iraq. So we are being asked to believe that something like 1 person in 40 in the whole of Iraq have been injured or killed by American bombing. Especially since the Americans havent been operating in the majority of Iraq, this seems to me to be unbelievably unlikely. There are plenty of reasons for stsopping tnhe war/getting rid of Bush. This ludicrous claim is not one of them. I suggest people take a precise look at what is actually being claimed before parroting this ludicrous "American bombs kill 100,000 civilians" stuff. How could it possibly be true?

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 08:56 AM

First off, it is the US war and the British war.

Second off, you left out the UDA, UDL, and the other terrorist loyalist organizations that have been trying to destroy the peace process.

Finally, should we also kill off the British authorities that have been providing intelligence to the various Loyalist groups?

Please understand the context that I am putting this in. I say this as an observation, and without rancor. I want folks to think about what they say. You constantly point at the US and "the good citizens of Boston". Those citizens would have nothing to fund, were it not for the actions of the British Government in support of the loyalist terror groups.

It is too damned easy to point accusing fingers. This is why we, in the States, need a thoughtful President who understands that nothing happens in a vacuum. One who works with the International Community as Bill Clinton did. And were I a citizen of Great Britain, I would cease pondering what's wrong with the US and concentrate on changing the leadership in your own country.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 08:46 AM

Then there's the Aryan Nations, the Posse Comitatus, the KKK, the anti-abortion terrorist bombers, &c &c.

The good citizens of the U.S. had best kill off all of their domestic terrorists first, if they really want to clean house.

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: GUEST,Redhorse at work
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 08:35 AM

I've never been sure who the terrorists are that we need to kill first.
To take as an example the IRA bomb that was set off in Warrington (my nearest occurrence). Should we have killed the man who planted the bomb, the man who made it, the man who bought the materials, or the good citizens of Boston who donated the money?
nick

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: GUEST,Ragnar
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 06:47 AM

Yeah, He created you.

R

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 11:18 PM

and declare that we'll kill them before they kill us

That's going to be a bit hard for yer man Bush to do, Ragnar, considering the fact that he's creating new terrorists faster than he can kill them.

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: Amos
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 10:27 PM

A bit strident, Guest?

As you probably won't cop to a plea of being disingenuous, I can only conclude there is some stupidity involved here.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: Ron Davies
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 10:22 PM

Tell Bush he should pay you more. You're doing him yeoman service.

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 11:41 AM

Kerry voted for the war, and Kerry has said repeatedly on the campaign trail, at his website, and in his interviews with the media, that he will STAY THE COURSE ON THE IRAQ WAR.

Kerry is PRO-WAR.

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: GUEST,Ragnar
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 11:14 AM

"John Kerry's 'Complaints'
What does he find "legitimate" about terrorism?
To take back the White House in 2004, any Democratic candidate is going to have convince voters that he or she is serious about the war on terror. The start of being serious is to drop all the socio-babble about root causes and "complaints," and declare that we'll kill them before they kill us. Joe Lieberman and Dick Gephardt have shown signs they understand this. Senator Kerry has a long way to go."
WSJ Opinion Journal

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 11:11 AM

So will we see Amos and Ron Davies calling for an immediate withdrawal of troops from Iraq on November 3? No?   I didn't think so.

Kerry is a hawk, and Amos and Ron are Kerry hawk apologists.

KERRY IS PRO-WAR.

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: Amos
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 11:04 AM

Kerry is not "pro-war". That is disingenuous (or really stupid).

The problem he has is that as President he wuill have to deal with the war as it is. Direct and immediate retreat might be possible but arguably would be harmful in the extreme. I don't know. Listen to Kerry's speech as a Vietnam Vet before the Senate Council on Foreign relations. PRO-war? I don't think so.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 10:57 AM

It'd be quite possible to be against the death penalty, but think that if people are going to be killed, it ought to be done in pubic rather than off in private somewhere.
.........................................

Rather than commenting based on press reports, it might be better to go direct to the source. Here is a link to the Lancet website , which now has the full study. You'd need to register, but it's free.

Subject: RE: BS: Study: 100,000 Iraqis Killed by US war
From: Ron Davies
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 10:53 AM

Guest---

You don't listen very carefully, do you?   It is obvious that both Kerry and Bush are trying to disengage from Iraq--they have even said so. Neither, for obvious political reasons, is willing to give a hard and fast deadine.

Grow up and start living in the real world.