BS: Separated by a common language

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 12:55 PM

""Step up to the the plate"   I've never heard or for thatmatter read anyone using that here.

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: meself
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 12:20 PM

"the average number of words typical of the British vocabulary vs that of its American counterpart"

What does this mean?

Confused colonial.

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 08:58 AM

" Recently the phrase 'could'nt be arsed' has crept into the language meaning couldn't be bothered"

When I first heard it it was "can't be asked", which I think is far more meaningful but I suppose most people can't be asked to get it right...

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 08:29 AM

"There are some that say an important feat the USA was to take a "stuffy" English language, improve it..."

If you consider lazy imprecision an improvement, I guess you might have an argument. Having lived about half my life in the UK and half in America, I find spoken UK English far more colourful, varied and interesting than American English. People seem to take more joy from language in the UK.

I would be interested to know whether there have ever been any sutdies regarding the average number of words typical of the British vocabulary vs that of its American counterpart. My guess is that that the typical spoken British vocabulary is far more extensive.

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: Mr Happy
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 07:47 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil%27s_Arse

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 07:24 AM

There are some that say an important feat the USA was to take a "stuffy" English language, improve it (for example as in Kwik Kopy) , make it the language of business....and spread it around the world.....seems like a good point to debate?

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 06:43 AM

Whoever said "arse" was improper ?

It's a good old Anglo-Saxon word to describe

(i) the posteriors ;
(ii) someone to whom, if you were a ghost, you wouldn't give a fright.

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: mandotim
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 05:37 AM

Bill Bryson (in scholarly mode rather than jokey travel writer) wrote a cracking book on this very subject; warmly recommended. Made in America
Tim

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: Penny S.
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 04:27 AM

I had the impression that "playing the race card" was used in the sense of someone who could be seen as a possible victim of racism claiming racism when criticised for something else.

By comparison, when I was a prefect at school, there was a badly behaved girl who had calipers because of polio. When asked to stop talking in the lunch queue she would plead that she was being picked on for her disability.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: Rowan
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 11:14 PM

My experience of "To crack the whip" in Oz is that it means to exert pressure on a person or group to achieve a goal desired by the one cracking the whip. "Fair crack of the whip" can be used as a riposte to the whip cracker by the one(s) being pressured; it is almost the equivalent of "Fair go, mate."

As it happens, whip makers among us would also know that the short and extremely flexible attachment to the end of the fall of the whip (ie., the bit that exceeds Mach 1 when the whip is cracked, thus making the "crack") is called the "whip cracker".

I'm a little surprised that "the mark" featured in US usage,as I've always thought of "toeing the line" as associated with boxing (and thus common wherever it featured as an activity) whereas I'd thought of "Stepping up to the mark" as associated with archery and common in British usage but less so in US usage.

I learn something every day.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 09:06 PM

An old southern expression for adding spices, etc. to a bland dish- "hire it up." Equivalent in UK? Use outside of the South?

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 08:59 PM

Toe the line and toe the mark used to be common in the U. S., but do seem to have vanished with the "Rover Boys." Perhaps because the starting block has taken over.
"Crack the whip" common, but lacks "fair."

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: Rowan
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 08:45 PM

Parliamentary Whips, while capable of whipping up support, seem more often to be used to keep unruly backbenchers "in line". Similar to how bullockies used their whips to keep the team moving in the right direction; a good bullocky could do it without the whip actually touching any member of the team, but focussing attention by cracking the whip near a miscreant's ear.

"Fair crack of the whip" has now been replaced, it seems, by "Fair suck of the sauce bottle".

And the Americanism "Step up to the the plate" seems to have replaced both "Step up to the crease" and "Step up to the mark"; even "Toe the line" seems to have gone out of favour.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: Ed T
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 08:43 PM

Sorry about all the Stomp"in Tom music....I forgot, this is a discussion site, as Joe often says Or did I get it backwards:)

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: Ed T
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 08:29 PM

Try these out, if you think we speak a different language....all Stompin Tom Connors....and yes east Coast Canadians can understand it all:)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNrszjqK76s&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4GkO1eKmbM&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wCyVjWQx5s&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Yd6eoYAflM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7ryZG3qTlg&feature=related

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: gnu
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 08:12 PM

Stompin Tom Connors! MARGO!

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 08:01 PM

You can whip up support as well. It's what Whips in parliament are there for.

And the distinction between "enquiry" and "inquiry" Jos pointed to is pretty standard in the UK at least - when did anyone ever hear about a government setting up a "Public Enquiry"?

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: Ed T
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 07:53 PM

Sometimes we do speak a different language, even have a different sense of humour. But, we can still enjoy ourselves telling the same jokes or singing the same songs...but m,aybe interpreted a bit differently.

This well sung song is on here somewhere else, but clearlyt makes my point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUJVT5oUM8c

Ac Canadian Country-folk local eastcCoast folk singer once sang (about mining (Inco) town Sudbury Ontario:
"The songs that we'll be singing, they might be wrong but they'll be ring'ing,
When the lights of town are shining bright, and we're all tight,
We'll get to work on Monday, but tomorrow's only Sunday,
And we're out to have a fun day for it's Saturday tonight"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkHhx3y__9w

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 07:30 PM

Oh, I did it again.

My apologies to The Snail and not to Jack, who may not know jack about what I'm talking about, but I doubt he'd jack me up because of my mistake so I guess I'm cool and the gang.

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 07:26 PM

My apologies to Jack for jumping to conclusions, and to Q for crediting his words to Kevin.

**
The Wikipedia page for dog whistle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog-whistle_politics defines them as "a type of political campaigning or speechmaking which is employs coded language that appears to mean one thing to the general population but has a different or more specific meaning for a targeted subgroup of the audience. The term is invariably pejorative, and is used to refer both to messages with an intentional subtext, and those where the existence or intent of a secondary meaning is disputed."


-snip-

The author/s of that page indicate that the phrase "dog whistles" as defined above originated in Australia. Examples are included on that page about the use of coded references or "dog whistles" in Australia, the United Kingdom, and in the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 06:55 PM

'Playing the race card' is heard in American politics; haven't heard the 'dog-whistle' expression in U. S. or Canada, but it is a good one.

(The ABC- Australian Broadcasting Corp., a public corporation, must not be confused with the ABC- American Broadcasting Company, a private company. The latter still is very restrictive; don't know about the Australian)

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: Rowan
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 06:07 PM

Most of the UK understandings of the phrases mentioned above seem to have transferred to Australia almost unaltered, although I've yet to hear a Second Division, Second Class, Honours degree referred to as anything other than a 2.2 or (among much older people no longer connected to universities) a 2B.

The national broadcaster here (the equivalent of Britain's BBC) is the ABC and shared similar attitudes and came to share the same "Aunty" nomenclature. Some of the prohibitions now seem incomprehensible. One that comes to mind (an applied to commercial broadcasters as well) forbade broadcasting more than 25 consecutive minutes of opera; this lasted until about 1966.

You can 'whip up' hatred reminded me of a more recently-used term in Oz politics. When a politician (elected or self-appointed) makes a comment that is designed to appeal to racists but avoids overt expression of racism (you can be assured it is designed to "'whip up' hatred") it is referred to as "dog whistle politics". It relies on the popular understanding of those sorts of whistles that can be heard by dogs but not by people. When racism is deployed as an argument here it is referred to as "playing the race card".

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 06:06 PM

Tutu- reminds me that as kids if I said Joe wore a tutu, it was an invitation to a fight.

And what happened to the remark, "Too too and very very"? I haven't heard it for years. I guess it has gone the way of "too much sugar for a dime."
------------------
Mo, let's whip round to the bar for a drink.

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: Jos
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 06:05 PM

Some people (including at least one publisher) make a distinction between 'enquiry' = a polite question, and 'inquiry' = a more thorough investigation.

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 05:36 PM

Sorry, Azizi, but you are over interpreting. I fell in to a convention a while ago (probably borrowed from somebody else) of putting the name of the person I was quoting into bold and the actual quote into italics to try and make it clear what and who I was quoting and what I was saying in response.

Nice James Brown clip but, no. At least not intentionally although it may have been lurking in my subconscious. I was simply saying that you had to say Desmond 2.2 out loud to get the joke. Your pm friend is right that Archbishop Desmond Tutu is held in very warm affection in most of the UK. He comes over as an utterly delightful and wise human being.

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: Mo the caller
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 05:23 PM

I've come to this late. But Azizi referred to 'Whip up' and 'whip round' which in the UK mean completely different things (no idea what, if anything they mean in the US).
You can 'whip up' hatred, or enthusiasm. Like a cook might whip egg white or cream to make it bigger.
You 'have a whip round', or 'pass the hat round' to pay for something, contribute to a joint present, or help someone out financially.
I had heard The Snail's Desmond (2.2) but not the Bishop variant. I'm out of date, just when I thought I'd caught up.

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 04:58 PM

That was Q, not me.

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 04:34 PM

Sorry, Kevin. I've never heard or read the word "bumff" except in your post.

Thanks for the compliment about my adopted city. Although it's off-topic here's some Pittsburgh Pennsylvania photos.

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 04:07 PM

Short for "bum fodder".

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 03:31 PM

meself, some of the old jokes have shifted meaning with time.
My grandfather would have understood 'lady' as referring to a prostitute or 'lady of the streets'. My children would assume the other meaning; a downgrading of 'the little woman' (as she was known in the past.
This is the case with many words used in the slang sense; they go in and out of popularity.
'Bum' or whatever is a bad example because so many other referrents are in wide usage wherever English is spoken. Mostly they are understood without the need for explanation.

BBC and "auntie"- In the 1930s the 'Beeb' issued a list of banned songs. Some types of songs were banned for no firm reason except whim. The English slang expression for a code of behaviour- "auntie knows best," referring to the older generation or a prissy aunt's opinions- was applied to the BBC and it stuck. At this time, they claim to ban no recorded songs (but I doubt this is 100% true).
----------------------------
In England, and supported by the Oxford English Dictionary, the word enquiry is almost universally used. In the U. S. (and mostly in Canada because of proximity), inquiry is the accepted spelling. (Perhaps this has been mentioned before).
----------------------------------
Has 'bumff' (spelling varies) spread to beautiful downtown Pittsburgh? First applied to tons of paper generated in the English civil service, it spread to Canada, and eventually to junk mail, etc. I have now heard Americans use it. Is it now widespread in the U. S. or very local?

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 02:47 PM

I meant to say Jack, your comment is another way of saying the same thing that I said.

(In the scheme of things, this really isn't all that important. However, I thought it was one smalle indicator that some progress has been made in the areas of race and class). And since this was on a program that included the leader of the racist organization, BNP, I wanted to share that thought.)

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 02:42 PM

Jack, for what it's worth, my "here"s are hyperlinked directly to two relevant posts from that long thread about the Question Time program.

**

Here are the two points that I was trying to make about two meanings of the word "lady":

1. Some degree of progress has been made in that nobility titles have been given to (I suppose some are given and not inherited, right?) Women of Color and Men of Color.

Jack, your comment that "there haven't been many non-white women entitled to claim formal modes of address reserved for the peerage until recent decades" although I'd use the term "Women of Color" instead of "non-white" as that is the accepted term in the USA. We believe that there is an important difference in these terms as the term "non-white" makes white that which all others peoples are defined by, and People of Color does not.

2. In the 19th century and earlier, neither of those two Women of Color who were on that Question Time panel would have been given the courtesy of being called a "lady" (meaning a respectable woman).

Prior to my reading the comments by The Borchester Echo, I wasn't aware that feminist in Britain have problems with the referent "ladies" for them and for other women. Maybe American feminists have the same issues with that word. But that's not true of all women in the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: meself
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 02:37 PM

Hmm - seems we're still separated by a common language - I always took the reply as the husband's put-down of his wife, rather than a defence of his wife.

Or is the original notion that he is not thinking at all about the connotations, but makes a reply that 'comes out wrong'?

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: meself
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 02:33 PM

I always assumed the questioner was using 'lady' in the neutral sense - but the joke works out the same (the other giving 'lady' its connotation of 'class' and virtue).

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 02:27 PM

Actually, on thinking it over, it's the person asked the question who took the term in that sense, rather than the questioner.

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 02:20 PM

You can do pretty well the same with a whole range of expressions, by adjusting the tone of voice etc. Man, boy, sir, mister, him, her, you...
..................

"Who was that lady I saw you with last night?"

"That was no lady - that was my wife."

(The joke being based in the fact that the questioner was using 'that lady' in the sense, then current, 'lady of the streets'.)

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 02:10 PM

Some people posting to this thread or reading this thread might be interested in the discussion here and here about the use of the word "lady" in the UK and in the USA.

[the "heres" being towards the end of the same immensely long thread about British fascism - you might be in for a long wait if you click on those links]

"Lady" has such a multiplicity of connotations you are not going to get the simple answer you seem to be looking for. It would be quite possible to imagine very similar contexts in present-day British usage where one use would be insulting, another grovellingly sycophantic and another neutral, and you'd need to know quite a bit about the speaker and the person spoken about to figure out which was which.

But there's no correlation with race involved, except in the very indirect sense that there haven't been many non-white women entitled to claim formal modes of address reserved for the peerage until recent decades (probably the first would have been the wives of bishops of the Church of England). Those modes of address only account for a tiny fraction of the occasions when the word is used.

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 01:59 PM

A distinctive geature of much American TV comedy (and other drama) that hasn't been mentioned so far is a tendency to move from time to time into a warm family values mode, in a way you don't seem to get with the equivalent shows from over here.

Form example with a show like My Name is Earl, or the Simpsons, every now and then the message emerges that, beneath the lunacy, these people are really basically OK and love each other on some level.   You don't get that with Father Ted. You might get to love them, but they don't love each other too much.

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: meself
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 01:19 PM

Canada here, adding 'rear' and 'rear-end' to that much-named part of the anatomy. Also, 'rump'.

Back in my school days, we had an Irish teacher who would occasionally have occasion - completely innocent, I assure you - to refer to one's 'sit-upon'.

Oh yes, 'seat' is another. Don't think I've heard that one for some years now, though. Perhaps derived from 'seat-of-the-pants'.

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 12:39 PM

Some people posting to this thread or reading this thread might be interested in the discussion here
and here about the use of the word "lady" in the UK and in the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: gnomad
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 11:37 AM

Regarding the various names for what you sit on we understand a wide range of terms in Britain, but mostly use a smaller range, choosing our word to suit the tone of the conversation. Thus:

Bottom - safe, and almost universally accepted as inoffensive.

Bum & Backside - More colloquial, but only likely to offend the most
squeamish. Bum very slightly naughty, to children for example.

Butt & Ass - Not much used, though increasing. Regarded as Americanisms, thus popular with those aping American ways, unpopular with those shunning them. Ass seen as not quite saying arse, but sharing some of its risqué qualities.

Booty & Hiney - Might well not be understood, especially by older persons. Hardly any usage.

Derrière, Gluteus Maximus - Largely unused except by those meaning to be humorous. Non-offensive.

Arse - Utterly unacceptable to some, quite inoffensive to others. Understood widely (universally I should think) but not a term to be deployed without being sure of your audience.

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 11:34 AM

'Arse' is pretty much in use in Ireland. 'Get your arse off of that'.
And there's ofcourse 'Hole', slightly more vulgar probably, for same

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: s&r
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 11:27 AM

Arse is a vulgar word for posterior. Ass is sometimes pronounced by southerners as arse. Recently the phrase 'could'nt be arsed' has crept into the language meaning couldn't be bothered.

The American ass has become more common of late, along with other words like elevator and apartment.

Stu (UK)

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 11:20 AM

"Redd" is originally Scots - still current in south-west Scotland, though I've hardly ever heard it in Glasgow or Edinburgh. It's thought of as a Pittsburghism, though people from south-west Scotland must have settled in many other parts of the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 10:35 AM

And by the way, Snail, when you wrote "Say it out loud" after the name Desmond in your post, was that a clip from the this James Brown hit record?

And in that context does that phrase mean that those who achieved that level should also be proud?

If so, kudos on your wit.

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 10:17 AM

We crossed posted. Thanks for that info, Jos.

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: Jos
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 10:16 AM

'Having a whip round' is when everyone present makes a small contribution, whatever they can afford, to help someone out financially.

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 10:16 AM

Thanks for your responses TheSnail and Sandra.

Here's another response that I got by pm which explains why the BBC is referred to as "Aunty":

"This quote from wiki is probably the best description of how the Aunty Beeb got her name :)

'The following list of songs banned by the BBC is an alphabetical list of songs that the BBC has at one stage or another, considered controversial enough to ban...

As the United Kingdom's public service broadcasting corporation, the BBC has always felt some obligation to standards of taste and decency, to varying levels, at different times in its history. Its "auntie knows best" attitude earned it the nickname of "Auntie BBC" or "Auntie Beeb".'

A 2;2 is a university degree - probably one of the most common awarded
First Class Honours (First or 1st)
Second Class Honours, Upper Division (2:1)
Second Class Honours, Lower Division (2:2)
Third Class Honours (Third or 3rd)
Ordinary degree (Pass)


In recent slang such a degree (quite a common leval of achievment) is referred to as a 'Bishop' after South African Bishop TuTu who, incidentally, is held in very warm affection in most of the UK."

-snip-

And The Snail, I understood why you used bold font for my name :o)

[It's kinda an inside joke but anyone who has been reading this thread will get it.]

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 09:17 AM

Bum, bottom & backside are all traditionally used in Australia, however
butt is also in use along with other Americanisms, but I don't know how long butt has been used here.

andra

Subject: RE: BS: Separated by a common language
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 09:01 AM

Azizi

Is the BBC referred to as "auntie"?

Yes. Not absolutely sure why. I think it is meant to imply a kindly but rather prim and proper manner.

During that show, Bonnie Greer said something to Nick Griffin that I interpreted as "toot toot", but which I read in an online article as
"2:2". I gathered that it referred to the number of years a person attended a college or a university. Is that correct?

University degrees are awarded at either Pass level or with Honours. Honours are subdivided into First, Second and Third class. Because most people get a Second Class degree, this is further divided into 1 and 2. Hence the possibilities are 1, 2.1, 2.2, 3, Pass. People with a 2.1 look down on people with a 2.2 probably to make them feel better about not getting a First.

A 2.2 is also known as a Desmond. Say it out loud.