BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban)

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban)
From: Amos
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 11:58 AM

The first systematic theory of the relationships between human languages began when Sir William Jones proposed in 1788 that Greek and Latin, the classical languages of Europe, and Sanskrit, the classical language of India, had all descended from a common source. The evidence for this came from both the structure of the languages -- Sanskrit grammar has similarities to Greek and to nothing else -- and the vobcabulary of the languages. Thus, "father" in English compares to "Vater" in German, "pater" in Latin, "patêr" in Greek, "pitr." in Sanskrit, "pedar" in Persian, etc. On the other hand, "father" in Arabic is "ab," which hardly seems like any of the others. This became the theory of Indo-European languages, and today the hypothetical language that would be the common source for all Indo-European languages is called Proto-Indo-European.
(http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/linguistics/lectures/05lect22.html)

The ancient hieratic language of India is called Sanskrit, actually sam-skrta or "decorated, arranged language", and dates from the end of the second millennium B.C. A vast body of religious materials was assembled, the best known and earliest is the Rg Veda which we have entire in a long MS tradition but also reinforced by a remarkably accurate oral tradition passed down through the ages. Sanskrit as we have it is a literary language, high decorated and furnished with a body of linguistic and grammatical interpretation dating from ancient times. For practical instruction purposes, Sanskrit it even today for a small body of special students the Indic parallel to Latin studies in the West. It belongs to the group of Indo-European (IE) languages which came down along with Iranian from the north, to invade the Indic sub-peninsula, and was carried by the ksatriya class of northern warriors who dominated India for centuries.

These warlike peoples, whatever their actual ethnic composition, called themselves Aryah or Aryans and their language represents an early offshoot from the IE outpouring from the area south and east of present Russia. Note that when we speak of language groups, we are speaking in wholly linguistic terms, and must not confuse language-groups with ethnic entities.

If Indo-Iranian groups represent an early IE offshoot, we should note that the Hittites of Eastern Anatolia represent as early a spur from the westward linguistic flow. It was only in the early years of the 20th century that clay tablet written in cuneiform characters were discovered near the Turkish village of Boghaz-koi, but it was some twenty years before they were deciphered and understood as a very early and rather surprising variety of IE derivation. The Hittite Empire was a major contender for power in the 2/1 millennium B.C., but nobody thought that their language was a form of the IE stock. Some even felt that Hittite may have been the parent of the IE languages, hence on the same level with IE itself, a view proposed and studied for years by Sturtevant of Yale. But it is now felt that Hittite is simply an IE cousin, although it shows remarkable deviancy from what we consider the norm of early IE structure.

Greek was early carried down from the north into the Greek peninsula, again in early 20th c. major discoveries of "Linear" tablets written on clay were found at various sites on Crete and southern Greece. In l949 the English cryptanalyst Ventris cracked one portion of this tablet treasure-trove and proved that it was an early form of Greek, dating well back into the times of an unknown empire in the second millennium B.C. The writing indicates large commercial ventures, shipping and production of many basic items of trade. We call these translatable documents Linear B, but the Linear A has so far resisted interpretation and may belong to a lost language stock of which we have no other traces.

After 1200 B.C. a general period of desiccation seems to have curtailed this early civilization's life, and it was only after 800 B.C. that our history of ancient Greece starts up again, apparently largely anew with only folklore information about the ancient days at Troy and Cnossos. The later Greek language in the historical period divides itself into several dialects which are largely mutually intelligible, but these are in turn replaced by the politically dominant Athens with Attic Greek, the language of the culture from then on.
http://community.middlebury.edu/~harris/LatinBackground/IndoEuroBackground.html
(Compiled from several scholars posting on various sites on the web.)

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban)
From: GUEST,NODDY
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 11:44 AM

he has his mothers eyes!

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban
From: Blackcatter
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 09:23 PM

Fred, that's part of it. Went from Canada to Miami. Passed through Central Florida. I was up in Yalaha talking to a garden club today about the highway.

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban)
From: Sam L
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 09:19 PM

Not the Dixie hwy a few miles west of me, in KY?

Noddy, is it like the way stephen daedalus proved by algebra that hamlet was the ghost of his father and that he himself was his own grandfather?

And, because it would be a foursome?

I wasn't very confused by the movie and was spared the disappointment over all that was left out. It was quite a nice time.

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban)
From: Nerd
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 03:04 PM

By the way, I really enjoyed the design changes in the new film. As some of us have pointed out above, it was more medieval in feeling, and Hagrid's house and the Willow have moved. I think it works better this way. I especially liked the formations of standing stones on the grounds!

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban)
From: Nerd
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 02:56 PM

SRS,

it's not accurate to say that "Sanskrit is the basis for many European languages"; it is not in fact the basis of any. This is a common misconception, like saying that chimpanzees are our ancestors.

The way it really works is this: there was a very old language, which linguists name proto-Indo European, which is the basis of all Indo European languages, including Sanskrit AND English. Very early on, there was a split between western and eastern Indo-European languages, probably because the IE people originated in Western Asia and moved outward from there, both east and west. Sanskrit in turn split off from the eastern or Indo-Iranian branch some time after that, to become the root of most of the Indian IE languages. Meanwhile, the western language split into the groups we know so well: Celtic, Italic, Germanic, Baltic, etc.

The point is that Sanskrit may retain some features of archaic proto-indo-european, but it is not a direct ancestor of any western language. To find out what features are archaic, we use the various sound-shifts to postualte back what earlier forms of words must have been like. Those forms shared by languages across the east-west divide must be the oldest. If a form differs between eastern and western IE languages, it's impossible to say which form was the older. So Sanskrit can't be treated like an ancestor, only like a cousin.

An analogue to linguistics that would make sense in terms of magic would be to see what magical practices exist in common between Western Europe and India, and posit those as potentially very old, rather than to claim that what is done in India is what was once done by all of us many years ago. So to bring in exotic forms from India wouldn't make any "linguistic sense," but to bring in Indian versions of charms common to both east and west might.

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban
From: Blackcatter
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 11:00 AM

Ellen - we'll see about reading the book - I really have no interest.

You have no idea how many books are piled up wait to be read - and those are ones for legitimate research. I'm currently doing research on the Klan in Florida, WWII POW camps in Florida and the Seminole Indian Wars. Harry Potter is lucky to get 2 hours of my life (and that's mostly because I like Emma Watson). I haven't been to a movie since Christmas night (LOTR - Return of the King).

Well I'm off to give a talk on the early history of highways in the Orlando area - Anyone remember the Dixie Highway?

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban)
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 08:44 AM

forgot to say the clues are there for you all in the films and the book...............and lots of anagrams of the names!!!!

Have you worked it out yet.

Thats all I'm saying

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban)
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 08:31 AM

Harry a bit wooden,
Have you considered the possibility that the director an JK want him played that way which makes the actor VERY GOOD.

Just wait till the ending is revealed you will discover that Harry is in fact THREE PEOPLE... Harry His Mother and His Father which is why they survived and Why he does not get it on with Hermione!

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 04:23 AM

Blackcatter:


"a promise of sushi afterwards (I'll do anything for salmon skin rolls). "

So, come to the Getaway, and we can go have sushi and tell Ellenpoly all about it...

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban)
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 04:11 AM

Ah, but Blackcatter, by seeing the movie without having read the book, be warned. There is a lot you'll miss, and that's a shame.

A friend of mine who sees all the films but refuses to read the books, because he says he's a film "purist" whatever the hell THAT means, told me of some of his confusions. The more he talked the more I realized that everything he said would have been easily cleared up if he had read the book first.

Does that mean the movie can't stand on it's own? No I do think it's the best of the bunch, but as is true with every film I can think of, based on a book (not a short story or play, which are easier to adapt in their entirety) a lot will be left out.

OK, Blackcatter, I know your time and interest is limited, and a two-hour flick is pretty painless...but if you REALLY want to be apprised of all that JK Rowling has to offer...I still encourage you to READ the books!!

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban
From: Blackcatter
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 12:01 AM

OK, OK, OK I'll see the movie. My friends are dragging me to see it with a promise of sushi afterwards (I'll do anything for salmon skin rolls).

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban)
From: Sam L
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 11:53 PM

The question of how well the books sell to black kids I don't know, but as for asian kids, so well that many Japanese kids have read the books before they are actually written. Big piracy thing with the Potter books, and many asian children wrote to complain about confusions, like Harry being involved with Hermione, and wizards from Lord of the Rings wandering in. They thought the author was forgetting things.

One advantage other races seem to have over whites is that they seem to be able to respond imaginatively to things that aren't dressed up as them. Except for The Titanic, they really hate that one, it's just too white. Isn't it embarrassing how we have to watch Chinese movies about the white guy, Indian movies about the white guy, all these dumb fantasies of the white guy becoming everyone else. In other words, doesn't the Last Samurai really utterly suck in so many suckational ways? Maybe the need to represent white guys where they don't need to be is more the real problem than trying to put everyone else in proper statistical proportions. Can't we care?

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 11:46 PM

I suspect that the introduction of some of the supernatural mythical magical figures from other parts of the world would tear apart this magical world, clearly a creation out of of a northern European tradition. It probably doesn't hurt to remember that Sanskrit is the basis for many European languages, and since language carries a cultural baggage all it's own and Sanskrit comes from somewhere around India, Rowling may manage to bring in some magical surprises. She's paying attention to language.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban)
From: GUEST,Policorrectus Bollicus
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 06:27 PM

Non-white population of United Kingdom = 7.6 % (9% in England, 2% each Scotland and Wales, Northern Ireland n/a)

National Statistics
1 Drummond Gate
London SW1V 2QQ

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban)
From: Sam L
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 06:26 PM

About the representation of races, it's interestingly problematic.

Potter world is clearly an old-European fantasy construct of witches and warlocks, complete with brooms and pointy hats. If you integrate the characters, do you need to integrate the different traditions of magic and imaginary-figure notions? Would an American Indian conjurer ever go to study at such a place as Hogwarts, on some sort of exchange-student program? I'm not sure how long the Potter characters are supposed to live, which also complicates the representative population question. Clearly they aren't immortal, but do the demographics run parallel with Muggledom? Or is there a timelessness/fantasy lag so that things need to seem a little behind the everyday clock? I don't know, but it's a problem of fantasy that things get oddly fitted, the rules aren't quite clear, it's messy, and depends on a kind of preponderant versimili-sort-of-itude. Like the problem of cartoon dogs Pluto and Goofy.

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban)
From: Sam L
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 05:47 PM

Saw it the other day, and feel strongly that it's the best in at least some respects. The spectacle of the fantastic setting is now old news, and the art direction is more selective, and finer. The younger actors are learning to really act. Hermione is as credible a character as any, even Snape, who is masterfully acted. It has more mood and genuine atmosphere, better editing. But the werewolf was awful and cartoonish.

I haven't read any of the books, but had heard the plot and stuff from my kids. I suggest sometimes it's also good to let kids explain things to you. My daughter was disappointed that Cho Chang wasn't in this one, but I guessed that it would create too much expectation if they introduced a new character who wasn't integral to the plot, and she figured that was probably true.

One thing that's interesting about the world of Potter, as somebody pointed out, is that there's really no magic in it. It's something one learns at school, like algebra, or conjugating verbs. So there's a very basic educational metaphor of making the fantastic seem commonplace, and maybe also implying the reverse--that the commonplace can be seen as magical. I can't get into it very much, but it seems to be pretty good. I read some "greater" stuff at that age, but I think it messed me up.

   Huck Finn was the first novel I ever read, and it poisoned my mind with a sense that my experiences were small and narrow, that I needed to get outside the security of my childhood circumstances. I developed an existential ethic of getting into trouble. Maybe I should've waited a year or two.

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban)
From: GUEST,Desdemona
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 05:12 PM

I loved it; my 12 year old took the abridgements rather hard, which only endears him to me further, but on the whole I really thought it much the superior of the 3 films thus far. The aesthetics were darker, more mysterious, and (being a mediaevalist), much more mediaeval/Renaissance than the first 2, in which I found Diagon Alley in particular rathjer more Victorian in flavour than I'd seen it in my mind's eye. This film "looks" more magical, and the Leaky Cauldron was spectacular: my dream home!!!

David Thewlis as Lupin was absolutely brilliant, and the cast on the whole turned in very fine performances; I'll definitely see it again.

D.

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 04:10 PM

Saw the movie last night... best of the 3 by far!

Goin again tomorrow night!

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 04:06 PM

Hagrid runs deep, though Rowling only hints at it so far. Considering the truth of Tom Riddle's false implication of Hagrid in the Chamber of Secrets book, we should be seeing some repercussion (going to school at a non-traditional age, perhaps, to finish his wizarding education?)

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban)
From: GUEST,Blackcatter
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 03:46 PM

From what little I know about the guy, that's pretty good - he's caring and protective of both people and animals and not at all stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban)
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 03:16 PM

I'm not sure whether or not to be pleased - but just found out this morning my sister equates Hagrid with me.

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban)
From: Nerd
Date: 05 Jun 04 - 12:27 PM

Unfortunately, gargoyle, Alfonso Cuaron ("the same Mexican director") is not doing number four, which is being filmed already. I believe the new director is Mike Newell (Mona Lisa Smile, Donnie Brasco, Four Weddings and a Funeral, etc). His main fantasy before this was "Into the West" which I saw but don't remember being blown away by; it certainly doesn't stick out in my mind as either awful or brilliant!

To deal with the problem of the kids aging, they could always go the route of filming several books at once, as they did with Lord of the Rings. The only problem with that is, 4 and 5 would be the obvious choices and as far as I know they are not doing so. (They could also do 5 and 6 together; book 6 will probably come out just in time for them to adapt it and get rolling!)   

I also want to emend the comments I made before re: race. Several people already pointed out that, as in Tolkien, different species stand in for different races, too. There is definitely a growing unease among the children--and the adults too--about the way elves, goblins, and Giants have been treated. I think a social transformation is beginning in which some of these "creatures" will have to lend their help to the forces of good in order to destroy Voldemort. So not only is there the question of "muggles" and "muggle-born wizards," which is perhaps vaguely similar to anti-semitism (they are somehow foreign, yet seem perfectly assimilated, like England's Jews), but there is also the question of more obviously, physically different "races" that have been oppressed.

(I must say, the Goblins also remind me of Jewish stereotypes common in England from the middle ages to Victorian times and beyond; they are small, with big noses and beady eyes, they are shrewd and clever but suspicious and unfriendly, and they're all bankers!)

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban)
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 05 Jun 04 - 11:31 AM

That's it exactly Garg - about halfway through something gave them a boost and I no longer felt as if something was missing (although approximately half the book is, would have made film 3hrs long if included). I think the turning point was when Hermoine put Draco's lights out.... certainly MY high point of the film!

But they were far too big to be ferrets - more like proper pole cats or otters.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban)
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 05 Jun 04 - 01:10 AM

For the narrowly-minority-minded - Wesley is as good a 'poor Irish white-trash' (aka nigger) as any Brit could imagine without searching out Paki's with private laundromats.

The last 60 minutes are brillant....someting "magical" begins to happen with the actors, scripts and effects.....something worth wading through the previous 80 regurgitating previous minutes

If the same Mexican director continues with version four....something astounding could develop.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban)
From: Lady Hillary
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 10:45 PM

EBarnacle here.

In reference to the discussion of racism, there was a 50's SF story entitled, I believe, "My Lady Greensleeves," with much the same theme, in which the punch line was "What's a Jew?" The implication is that humanity always seems to find a way to set up discriminatory practices based on class, color or something. The best we can do is go after these artificial sets of prejudices, one by one, and hope for the best. The author may have been Leinster or Sturgeon.

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban)
From: Pogo
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 10:03 PM

So far as the issue of race goes...I've heard it discussed before with people talking about Tolkien how it is a racist book with the whole idea of the good Caucasian elves, the bad guys being darker of skin etc and so forth...

to all that I say. You write what you know. You naturally write first about what is most familiar to you. Don't know that much about J.K. Rowling but I assume she grew up in white middle class society. And Tolkien from what I understand was an old white guy, influenced by the Industrial Revolution and the age of " the sun never sets on the English Empire " They wrote about what they knew, what they were most comfortable with.

Now...one should not let oneself be limited by what you know and are familiar with...then you miss the two-fold (aesthetic) purpose of writing...Self-expression and entertainment.

I believe in making one's imaginary world rich and varied. I do not think one should write solely to satisfy everyone. Please all, please none. Just me opinion :)

I enjoys writling, LOTR, Harry Potter, Earthsea...An' hangin' upside down by th' tail-bone :)

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 06:30 PM

One problem is, each book has them aging one year, but by the time it gets to the screen it's two or three years. So, if the kids are still playing the same roles by the time it gets to book Seven, they won't be kids any more.

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban)
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 06:17 PM

Well I've just got back from seeing it and it was a hoot. Lots of things to keep adult brains ticking too, if you are sharp enough!

Was a bit bemused at the way various geographical marks moved around. The Whomping Willow appears to have upped roots and waltzed off to the wilds and Hagrid is no longer at the bottom of the garden but the bottom of a gorge.


Lots of lovely camera work, fantastic aerial shots and great CGIs. It's been great watching these kids grow up on screen, the Weasley twins are quite fetching now and Neville seems to be slimming down. Just such a shame that Draco is turning out to be a horsefaced git.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 05:50 PM

It's mentioned in passing at some point that Angelina Johnson, who takes over as captain of the Gryffendor Quiditch team in book Five, is black.

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban)
From: Nerd
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 05:03 PM

Yes, there is a prominent black student, Lee Jordan, who among other things announces the Quidditch matches, and is the Weasley Twins' best friend. There are characters like Parvati Patil, whose race is not discussed but who must be south Asian. (Parvati, by the way, is described as the most beautiful girl in Harry's year, and has a twin sister, Padma, in another Hogwarts house). There is one senior wizard who is West Indian in the Order of the Phoenix, and Cho Chang who is Asian. Not a huge number of folks, but it IS set in England, so McGrath is probably right--about what you'd expect, especially since the vast majority of students and wizards are people we don't know anything about, including their race.

Both the people Harry has gone on dates with, BTW, are Asian: Parvati and Cho.

I think what Rowling is doing with the race issue is subtle. She has created a wizarding world in which nobody cares what "race" you are--it just doesn't come up. (No one says that Parvati and Padma are Indian, and Lee's blackness is mentioned just once, I believe.) Instead, whether you come from a good old wizarding family, or are instead a "muggle-born" or "mudblood." is the relevant quality. She has eliminated ordinary racism and race-consciousness on purpose, I think, to highlight the fact that prejudice against muggle-born wizards is the wizard version of racism. Then she is pretty relentless about making sympathetic characters like Hermione muggle-born, sympathetic characters like the Weasleys muggle-loving, and unsympathetic characters like the Malfoys muggle-hating (and "mudblood"-hating, too). Occasionally, a good person will make a generalization about muggles, and you automatically feel that inner cringe of guilt. I think it's pretty well managed, actually.

Blackcatter, you are right, it's good to discuss issues like this!

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 01:56 PM

I'm not an expert on Enid Blyton, but I've a feeling she wouldn't have been too likely to use a word like "trepidation".

Jill Murphy, an excellent way with words. I've often wondered if JK Rowling actually took the idea of a school for Witches from her Worst Witch books. (Or from Ursula LeGuin's Wizard of Earthsea, for that matter.)

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban)
From: GUEST,Shlio
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 01:46 PM

Still waiting to see it...but hopefully tomorrow will be the day.

Have read all these posts with great interest, but was surprised nobody mentioned the clear similarities in style between Rowling and Enid Blyton, Jill Murphy etc.

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 11:37 AM

Grab,

I was trying to do three things at once yesterday and had to go back to see what I'd written when I visited the Mudcat threads. The HP books and movies are complex, and I am aware that I didn't read every post as closely as I might. Won't be the first time I have contradicted myself, either, which I think I did in admitting that there was racism and noting the parallels that you note. I don't think there's a disagreement here.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban)
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 11:24 AM

My sister has been looking forward to seeing this with my nephew tonight - it's what he requested as part of his (27th!) birthday celebration -

that is until she read a review this morning that compared Harry to an "eigth grader".

She teaches eighth grade.

Now she is not sure she will enjoy it at all.

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban
From: GUEST,Hessy
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 11:18 AM

Harry's love interest is Asian, and isn't the school's sports announcer for Quiddich a Black kid? Not exactly the MAIN roles but definitely bit parts not unimportant filler parts.

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban)
From: Grab
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 07:12 AM

SRS, I didn't say that it *was* racism in the sense we know it, rather that it has a *parallel* with racism as we know it. It's prejudice against other beings because of what they are and not who they are. (Two good HP examples are the treatment of Hagrid when his giant ancestry is known and the treatment of Lupin when he's found to be a werewolf; there's also the unconscious prejudice shown by Hermione trying to use the centaurs, and by one character asking a centaur "Did Hagrid breed you then?")

(Off-topic, it's in the same way that Asimov didn't ever use the word "racism" in his robots stories, but there's a clear parallel between humans' treatment of robots in Asimov's work and the racism of the time.)

Fantasy is *very* good for tackling issues like this, bcos fantasy can present those "what-if" scenarios. Fantasy can present other races with different agendas, different histories and different moral codes as a "fact" and let the characters (and you!) work out how they should be treated. And the lessons from that spill over very well into RL, where there are many groups of people with different agendas/histories/morals. It's a good complacency-breaking method.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban)
From: Firecat
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 06:56 AM

I went to see the film with a work colleague on Monday. I thought it was great! Hermione's got a much stronger role in this one, in my opinion. Mind you, I wouldn't recommend it for any really young people. The little lasses sitting next to us (about 4 or 5 years old) had to keep going out because they were really scared. The Dementors scared me and I'm 20!! I think all three of the main actors (Daniel Radcliffe, Rupert Grint and Emma Watson) have improved a lot since Philosopher's Stone. Well done!

Can't wait for the film of Goblet Of Fire now!!

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban)
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 04:23 AM

I love this thread! Blackcatter, honey, anyone who has followed your posts here there and everywhere knows you are NOT a highjacker! On the contrary, you raised good points (misguided as I believe they were,hehehe) and have promoted an in-depth discussion on a book(s) that has obviously affected a lot of people. Thank you for that!

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 08:58 PM

Grab, it is overreaching the term to call what occurs in these books "racism." I understand "racial" to imply different colors (noticable but otherwise no genetic difference) within the same species, and a caste system (based upon ranking by color) within that species. In the Harry Potter books there are humanoids of various sorts and there are speaking creatures that aren't at all humanoid. If you are considering some kind of wizard animism in which "all speaking parts are equal" in these novels and then distinguish their caste within that huge bulky framework, then you might call it "racism" but that's a misprision. Bigotry and bias can be present without it being racist. Speciest? Speciesm? It needs to be called something else.

I had to go back to look at what I wrote, because it occurs to me that there is racism in the wizarding world, but it isn't skin color, and it isn't between species, it's skill level (MMario mentioned this, I think). This is illustrated by the Malfoys. And it correlates directly to skin color in the non-wizard world we live in.

There may well be other messages Rowling wants us to notice. The fact that many humans consider themselves above other creatures in the world is a problem around the world. Western influence is overtaking the good works of cultures that practice leaving a more benign footprint on the world. We don't know what the environmental footprint of a wizard is. Interesting problem.


SRS

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 07:38 PM

I haven't done my sums, but I think that the proportion of characters among the children whose names indicate they are probably not white is about what you'd expect in a country where fewer than one in ten of the population are non-white.

Since most of the readers of the books would probably be Muggles, I'd think that providing examples of Muggles being represented positively would be superfluous. With the exception of Harry's foster family all references to Muggles do seem to be sympathetic, except in the mouths of characters we are meant to dislike.

As for class, there is little indication of this so far as most characters are concerned. The implication is that wizarding skills are a lot more significant.
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I'm looking forward to seeing the film when the kids have gone back to school after half term. I'd dread seeing it in a cinema crammed with children...

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If I wanted to point a child to a book that would be a natural progression from Harry Potter, I'd suggest Ursula LeGuin's Wizard of Earthsea.

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban)
From: Grab
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 07:09 PM

Blackcatter, I wasn't trying to read stuff into what you said - sorry if I did. I was going on your comment:

Reading other fantastic stuff, spurred on by HP, is like watching more sitcoms because you like Friends. Hardly mind expanding.

I was trying to say that fantasy *can* be mind expanding, and there's no reason it should be "fluff" like some sitcom. HP is certainly escapism, but not of a mindless variety (sorry to Friends fans, but it *is* mindless), and moving from that to other fantasy is no bad way of getting a foothold into literature.

As an adult, I'm quite aware of how the wizards in HP are becoming more and more bullying towards non-wizards. This is a book about children growing up, for children growing up, and children do stuff like that. With a bit of luck it could spark some thoughts amongst kids. I'm quite sure Rowling is setting this up deliberately.

As for quantities of non-whites in HP, this is Britain which doesn't have as large a black population as the US. As far as I can tell, numbers are about consistent with real life. Whites *do* make up all the major characters - for that, I can only assume Rowling is writing for a culture she knows.

I disagree with SRS - there clearly *is* a racial element. As with Pratchett, skin colour is less relevant when "different races" means some with four legs and some 20 feet tall! But the important point made in HP (and in Pratchett) is dealing with them as people with their own motivations and their own moral codes, and not trying to impose your own judgements on them. Hermione's house elf campaign is a nice example, but other characters' mis-steps (with the centaurs, for example) show the same kind of approach. Some non-human characters are nice, and some aren't. And the wizarding society's attitudes to non-human races is about as clear a parallel on racism as you're likely to get.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban)
From: Amos
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 01:58 PM

Ithink one of the reasons for the taciot sens eof tolerance in the series is that when ever aproblem with "pure-bloodedness" comes up it is portrayed as small-minded and unadmirable.

A

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban)
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 01:56 PM

part of what I find fascinating is the different reactions of the characters that are suppossedly based on their backgrounds - yet differ between those of the same backgrounds.

Lily Potter and Mrs. Dursley - sisters , both muggle-born- but one embraces her magic, marries into the wizarding world ; the other activly surpresses anything to do with magic.

The janitor at Hogwarts - a squib - and from what little we've been told about him bitter due to the fact ; while one of Harry's neighbors on Privat Lane is also a squib - but seems to be very well adjusted about it.

Voldemort who denies his muggle heritage; Hermione who defends it. The Malfoys who seem to detest anything muggle versus the Weasleys who are fascinated with muggledom.

There's material enough presented already for another 20 or so books.

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 01:49 PM

Thanks, Leo--I came across "squib" in this latest book and couldn't remember what that was. And you're right--Hagrid is a relatively complex mixed blood character who has yet to come into his own in this story.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban)
From: Tracey Dragonsfriend
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 01:46 PM

Hmmm... I never even noticed the nationality of colour of any of the cast. They all spoke English, which is typically my hint as to a nationality - beyond that, it seems I don't pay much attention. But then someone had to point out to me that one of the Tellytubbies was a different colour, too. I'm always interested in other cultures & religions, and skin colour is sometimes a "mental nudge" to me that a person might have something different & interesting to say, but I don't really pay much attention to it beyond that.
I had this problem at a previous company, where someone I'd hired was the first Asian persion there, and this was seens as an issue. I's only thought of it in passing, in terms of what a beautiful coffee-cream light-brown colour she was, and how well the colour of her shirt suited her skin! If you can speak English (as that's where we're living & working) and do your job (whatever that is), I didn't then, and don't now see what the issue is. I don't seem to consciously notice what colour people are, unless there's something special that it could be relevant to, or have a bearing on.

I'm wondering if this "skin-blindness" is due to living in London, or to being a constant reader of fantasy of all kinds, or to being a technician, with a technician's mindset, or what. But it seems to me that the practice of checking things for the "right number" of races, sexes, ages, or whatever, is kind of missing the point - Surely it shouldn't really matter, should it?

Unless, I suppose, it's relevant to the internal logic of the setting or the script of something. For example, it wouldn't be convincing to see a pink Frenchman play Bob Marley, nor a brown Nigerian woman play James Bond, or Heathcliff, because we know the background of these characters.
In this case, logically, the Harry Potter books have the "feel" of being set quite a while ago, when the populace of their setting of "middle England" would not have been so diverse anyway, so it makes sense. When I was a child in Norfolk, only 25-30 years ago, everyone was that same boring pinky-type English colour, and anyone from Wales or Scotland, was a rarity. To meet someone from another country, or of another skin colour was really unusual & interesting.

Anyway, I've rattled on enough! I really enjoyed the first two movies (not as good as the books, but then they never are), and am looking forward to this new one no end...


Cheers
Tracey

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban)
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 01:41 PM

the other conflict that is shown is the muggle/wizard - where you have a full spectrum - from muggles who are totallly unaware of wizards - to those who are aware and to some extent follow what is happening in the wizarding world (examples would be Hermione's parents - based on comments she makes) to muggles who mix with wizards - becoming friends, marrying, etc. - to those who are aware of wizards and activly ignore or avoid them (the dursleys) - plus the full spectrum of wizards - from those for whom anything other the "pure-blood" is anaethma - to those more or less raised as muggles -

plus of course the whole "half-blood" bit with giants, veela's and possibly other races/species of magical creatures.

then you have the "squibs" - essentially muggles born to wizardly parents - some of whom live in wizard society - some of whom live in muggle society -

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban)
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 01:30 PM

y'know - they introduced two other schools of magic in book 4 - maybe in book six or seven there will be exchange students from even further schools of magic - be interesting if Rowley introduced someone who's (magical) background wasn't Eurocentric - Native American - or Polynesian, or Australian aborigine.

But it would probably take the book places she wasn't looking to go at the moment.

*grin* she did mention a possible 'prequel' about James and Lily on her website tho'

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban)
From: Amos
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 01:29 PM

Highjacked? It seems to me we are exactly opn course, discussing the film Prisone rof Azkaban, and by necessity its textual parent.

MM's remark is perhaps representative of that tacit tolerance I was speaking of. When the "English" students meet students from other schools, there is a ready flexibility to communicate and share and so on. The only tensions develop over improtant issues like sports and the developing confrontation between Good and Evil.

I concur, BC, that inviting a child to notice what he has seen in the book by discussing it is a good idea. Using racial diversity is a good idea, too, IMHO.

A

Subject: RE: BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 01:25 PM

oops--little senior moment there--I called Hermione "Hillary." And there I was wondering if it had one "l" or two. :)

Blackcatter, don't worry about posting substantive conversation to a light-weight thread--"I liked it" and "I didn't" can only go so far.

You introduced the topic here, and it has been examined and rebutted here by several folks--but we're responding to each other now, not picking on you for posting your original talking point. Your points were valid, and are what we might encounter in other venues.

SRS