BS: Feelings = Facts

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 07:09 PM

Come on old friend, Teribus treats others as they treat him.

You never find him picking on the "innocent".
He and I are miles apart on economic policy but we are pretty civil to one another.

Up here in Scotland MrT's quote is an old piss take...."Shut yer mooth an' gie yer arse a chance"...... Big mouthed people who are ill informed are the usual "butt".   :0)

Good to see you still and all.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Raedwulf
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 06:54 PM

"Often wondered Steve of the 12,509 posts since 13.05.2007 if the idea ever crossed your mind to shut your mouth just to give your arse a chance?"

Perhaps he has been waiting for you to set an example, Teribus? Because, whilst I have spoken in your support / defence in the past, you are very close to the head of the list of the most hostile, narrow-minded, nasty, aggressive & thoroughly unpleasant posters I have seen on this forum. Frankly, I'm hard pressed to think of anyone other than Gibbering Martian (i.e. Martin Gibson) who would beat you to the title.

Shut your ars... sorry, mouth? When did you ever give the idea consideration?

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 06:46 PM

That's alright Steve, most of us know that politics are not really your strong point, but what's all this hypnosis stuff?

Despite being abused and pilloried by almost all of the UK media, Mr Farage succeeded in accomplishing an astonishing feat, being instrumental in UK withdrawal from the EU.

He an excellent debater, straight and to the point with all the facts and figures at his fingertips.......I would say inspirational. Unfortunately, I am not in agreement with him over economic policies, but he is certainly one of the best politicians of his generation.

Of course, he will never receive the credit that he deserves, as the establishment and "liberals" of all hues hate him with a vengeance.
He is presumably attracted by the "maverick" tendencies in Mr Trump's persona.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Stanron
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 06:43 PM

akenaton wrote: I too voted leave and add my congratulations to Senfounou for an excellent summation.

Me too.

Shaw and Donuel seem to be so focused on negativity. Strange times and strange alliances. Let the wierd continue.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 06:09 PM

Donuel is too kind to say that you're a bloody idiot, but I'm not. Happy now?

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 05:55 PM

I too voted leave and add my congratulations to Senfounou for an excellent summation.

Has anyone any idea what the F*** Donuel is on about....I think he referred to me as some kind of Fascist a while ago because I suggested that Mrs Clinton may not be quite "The clean tattie".

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 04:36 PM

I'm sorry to hear about education in the UK following the US lead into lack of education.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 03:48 PM

That is disturbing about Columbia. The public seems to favor retribution. Perhaps a Trial could reach a settlrment better than an election.




There are the anti science religious forces out there that I call the American Taliban. In 2 years we will ride in driverless cars along with the American Taliban. AI, genetics, cyber evolution and physics will continue to advance along with 'those of faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 02:28 PM

Bad news about the referendum in Columbia that rejected the peace settlement negotiated beetween the government and FARC. From what I've read the campaign seems to have had a lot in common with the Brexit campaign.

The result is likely to be even more immediately disastrous than Bredit. It's as if the Good Friday agreement had been voted down by the Irish, which would have been a nightmare. (It's as well the English weren't allowed a vote on it, in the light of what happened in June his year...)

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 01:55 PM

This was one of many answers to what was called the 'Jewish Question'.

Beware the innocent sounding 'immigrant question'.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 01:48 PM

Oh please Shaw don't crawl, the fact that Donuel is prepared to spread lies about a completely innocent third party has been proven - Ask him about the fire on USS Forrestal in 1967 and who he attributed blame to. A man who could not possibly have been at fault and who barely escaped with his life from the incident.

At the time when this evidence was presented to Donuel he absolutely refused to walk back on any of the lies he attempted to spread.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 01:40 PM

I have read Teribus for 10 years. I speculated that he too has experienced family war tragedy but arrived at different conclusions.
At any rate, 'attention must be paid'.

My Jewish relatives were victims of the southern Einsatzgruppen where they separate men from women so the men do not riot to protect the women, strip everyone naked including children and infants attended by their mothers and rush them to the edge of a trench where as few bullets as possible were used to make people fall into the trench. Most shots were aimed at the back of the neck. Mothers who held infants below their heart resulted in writhing children who were not shot. Even after being covered with earth the sol continued to writh with the ones still alive.

One can witness the process on you tube from the films of Babba Yar and others.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 01:28 PM

"I note that Nigel Farage, one of those who pushed Brexit thru, has become an enthusiastic Trump supporter."

Indeed, Bill. In fact, without him the leave campaign would almost certainly have lost. In fact, without him there would probably never have been this wretched and undemocratic referendum in the first place. I hope that all those leave voters will now see their enlightened leader for the liar, racist and charlatan he truly is, which some of us have actually known for many years. Still, what can you tell these "educated brexiteers?" I could weep!

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 01:20 PM

Don't let this idiot get to you, Donuel. He must've had a bad night last night as he's been lashing out splenetically at all and sundry today, worse than ever, trolling in at least two threads. Be like me and realise you're not special. 😉

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 12:22 PM

by way of Third Reich murder policies I have lost dozens of family members made known to me at age 3.

My background is in Clinical and therapeutic hypnosis.

I put 2 and 2 together 40 years ago.

Yes I am schooled in propaganda.

While one is an academic matter the other is honest personal experience.

If someone doesn't know what a crypto fascist is, I encourage self exploration.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 11:36 AM

Senoufou your last two posts - very well put, well said.

Donuel - 03 Oct 16 - 09:09 AM

"I too am emphatically stating how and why voters fall for a pack of lies."

Well no Donuel, you are not - all you happen to be doing is paraphrasing what you have seen and heard on soundbite TV programmes. As for lies? Well going on your past record, you certainly know about propagating and spreading those don't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 11:34 AM

I note that Nigel Farage, one of those who pushed Brexit thru, has become an enthusiastic Trump supporter.

I'm not sure exactly what this means, but the mindset worries me... ☺

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 10:46 AM

To the Jewish cry "NEVER AGAIN" my response albeit unusual has been to resist the hypnotic qualities of the politics of hate.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 09:56 AM

Agreed.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 09:50 AM

There is nothing delusional about the politics of hate.
There is nothing delusional about being a good hypnotic subject.
Generally it requires a highly intelligent and aware person.

Some of you may be saying "NOT ME".
I am saying "Yup, some of you too".

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 09:36 AM

In my last post, read "And the brexiteers "forgot" to tell you that we get more immigration from outside the EU than from within, immigration that we COULD control if we wanted, but which we don't."

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 09:28 AM

Notice I am not taking this personally :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 09:23 AM

In the US, at least, there is a disdain for facts because of the disdain for science

Not only a disdain for science, but a generalized disdain for education, for expertise; the idiotic belief that everything is just a matter of opinion, and thus disdain for fact and objective reality.

Send cards of thanks for this to Rush Limbaugh, Alex Jones, Howard Nema, Michael Savage most Republican members of Congress and, of course, Twitter and Farcebook.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 09:09 AM

Steve you beat me to it
I too am emphatically stating how and why voters fall for a pack of lies.
Not all voters, but a reliable 20 to 40% of them.

I am aware that the Brexit controversy is still an open wound.
Nor am I unaware that there is a malevolent tone that an 'American' would have the gall to bring it up, thank you very much.

reprise
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNdkrtfZP8I

Boris:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uWAdJFhBK4

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 08:13 AM

Well I do suggest that millions of voters DID fall for a pack of lies. That immigration is severely damaging our country (it is actually of massive benefit) and our borders are "out of control" - meaningless gibberish. Nothing is going to change apropos of immigration as long as we need those doctors, nurses, dentists, plumbers and electricians that we fail to train ourselves, nothing. Even Iain Duncan-Smith, scumbag and brexiteer par excellence, admitted that yesterday. And the brexiteers "forgot" to tell you that we get more immigration from outside the EU than from within that we COULD control if we wanted, but we don't.   Worse, these two separate false claims were conflated into a racist narrative. That we "give" the EU £350 million per week. That we are inundated with undesirable laws and bureaucracy "made in Brussels" - we are not - we make those laws AND we have embraced thousands of them, almost the whole lot, enthusiastically, demurring over and often changing the very few we don't like. We do not fight wars with our historical European enemies any more and never will as long as the EU exists. You say you are old. Well congratulations for helping to decide an adverse future for this country not for you but for generations to come. I don't doubt that many leave-voters were sincere, but the evidence for leaving that they relied on doesn't amount to a hill of beans, just waffle about "getting our democracy back," putting EU money back into the NHS (you will never see the day, and I think you know it) and, even vaguer, making Britain great again in the brave new world of free trade. And who were you listening to when you took that on board? Why, a bunch of flag-waving little Englanders who secretly think that all foreigners are inferior and there to be exploited (like, let THEM train the doctors and nurses - their work permits are already at the printers...)

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 07:48 AM

The whole point of my last two posts, Stu, is that I AM "giving it a rest," so your non-moderatorial injunction is not appreciated, thank you very much.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Senoufou
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 07:32 AM

I might add, my dear husband voted Remain, after much consideration and research online. He is far more politically astute and knowledgeable than I, and, like my late father, a very wise man. He too had every right to his vote, and cast it as he thought fit.
He would never dream of accusing me of having 'fallen for a pack of lies', or of confusing 'feelings' for 'facts'.
But then he is, and always has been, a true gentleman.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Senoufou
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 07:17 AM

I can only speak for myself (I would never suggest other voters 'fell for a pack of lies') and I voted Leave after much thought, discussion with my friends and consideration of everything put before me (all sources, both sides of the matter) I am old, and have therefore experience of living in this country for many many decades. I also reflect often on my late father's views (He served during WW2, and was an extremely wise man) I find it rather insulting and arrogant when someone suggests I was duped 'by a pack of lies', or that the cost of being in the EU was my only point of reference for voting as I did.
Everyone knows the whole issue was/is very complex and difficult to grasp. There were many points for and against leaving. I am capable of evaluating and assessing what various politicians and economists have said. I am not stupid.
I had a vote and I used it, which in a democracy such as ours I had every right to do.
I don't regret how I voted at all. And I was thrilled when it became apparent that Brexit had won.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Stu
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 07:04 AM

Give it a rest you two, please.

"In the US, at least, there is a disdain for facts because of the disdain for science because of the puritan crap."

This is becoming the way here too, with party policy decided along idealogical lines rather than evidence-based and informed policy formation. ALL of our political parties do this, and it's problematic as it encourages the sort of short-termist thinking that dominates our political decision-making. We suffer less from the fundamentalist and literalist influence of our religions, and this is one positive.

In terms of Brexit, we were lied to by all sides and there is little doubt that feelings trumped facts; nationalism is an abstract concept after all, not a quantifiable value. We don't even know what Brexit means or what shape it might take (hard or soft etc), so devoid of facts are we at the moment and so to have had an informed opinion on the process before seems unlikely. As for getting any sort of reliable facts on which to base an opinion, then good luck with that. That takes individual effort and dismissing anything any politician ever proclaims on the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 06:49 AM

Here is the source I copied nearly word for word.
My intention was not discord but rather the anatomy of a political lie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNdkrtfZP8I

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 06:11 AM

Fine.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 05:21 AM

"I'm getting fed up of your aggressive and tiresome rudeness."

As we are of yours.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 04:27 AM

I'm getting fed up of your aggressive and tiresome rudeness. There is a lot I could say in response to your misguided stance but I don't see the point.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 04:19 AM

Steve Shaw - 02 Oct 16 - 07:55 PM

Often wondered Steve of the 12,509 posts since 13.05.2007 if the idea ever crossed your mind to shut your mouth just to give your arse a chance?

I haven't a clue as to whether Stanron or anyone else voted for leaving the EU because they are delusional, though the only possible alternative to it is that they have a personal vested interest in getting out.

So anyone who voted to Leave was either delusional or selfishly looking after their own interests were they? Of course the latter is by no means the "only possible alternative" not by a long shot. It would appear that Stanron, Senoufou and myself all voted Leave because we thought that it was in the best long term interests of the country.

"The vast majority of people, Stanron and Senoufou included for all I know, fell for a pack of lies about how much the EU "costs" us Blah, Blah, Blah"

Incontrovertible fact though Shaw is that the EU DOES COST US {I personally do not care by how much, that is irrelevant}, and over the years diktat from Brussels has sought to harm us economically to deliberately benefit Germany and France. Every prediction and every piece of "Doom'n'Gloom" spread by the "Remnain" campaign has proven worthless even the supposed rise in "Hate Crimes" which has it's origins in a misreported story from a Seminar that took place four days after the results of the referendum was known.

"Take away those packs of lies from the argument and there is not one rational reason on earth for voting to leave."

I can think of several, but foremost is after leaving we will not be subject to laws being imposed upon us without considered debate in our national Parliament. Oh and as for:

"I'd remind yiu that, of the thousands of EU laws that have been passed down the decades, the UK has adopted almost all of them enthusiastically."

I'd remind you that they were all adopted because the UK as a member had no other choice. Once we have left our laws are our own, though of by us for our own benefit, debated by us and us alone and imposed by us and us alone, and should they prove to be in error Shaw they can then be repealed by us and us alone.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 08:30 PM

Actually feelings are facts, but they facts relating to the person who has the feelings, not about the world outside. If I am angry with someone, that's a fact all right, but it need not mean that anger is justified by the actions of that person

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 08:10 PM

In the US, at least, there is a disdain for facts because of the disdain for science because of the puritan crap. No education is allowed, or it might contradict someone's belief. My understanding of European education, on the contrary, is that they don't denigrate science.
Nonetheless, the fact that people feel that moslems are a threat does not make moslems an actual, factual, threat.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 07:56 PM

The vast majority of people who voted leave is what I meant to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 07:55 PM

I haven't a clue as to whether Stanron or anyone else voted for leaving the EU because they are delusional, though the only possible alternative to it is that they have a personal vested interest in getting out. The vast majority of people, Stanron and Senoufou included for all I know, fell for a pack of lies about how much the EU "costs" us (figures fed to the public were wildly and quite deliberately exaggerated, and no account was taken in any case of the return we get for our input in terms of getting the skilled workers that we fail to train ourselves and the less fiscally tangible benefits from cultural exchange and free movement of people), not to speak of the squalid racism perpetrated by the brexiteers apropos of immigrants swamping our towns and villages, living on benefits, driving our wages down, taking over our housing and filling our schools with kids who can't speak English, etc. etc., and how we need to "take back control" (even though more people come to the UK from outside the EU, immigration that we could control if the brexiteers were telling us the truth, but which we signally don't control). Take away those packs of lies from the argument and there is not one rational reason on earth for voting to leave. I simply don't swallow the "educated brexiteers" argument. Start from the standpoint that the vision of a united Europe came about because no-one wanted any more of the kinds of brutal wars in Europe that uselessly killed so many millions, led to the Holocaust and impoverished so many countries for decades. I was never called up to fight and neither was my son, for which I'm eternally grateful to the EU and its predecessors. Yes the EU suffers from bureaucratic gigantism, but so does China, Russia and the US, and the EU is a damn sight more democratic than any of those (and, before I get shrieks of outrage from the US, the EU does not have a gun lobby that's more powerful than your President, a pro-Israel lobby of the kind that will turn any politician who criticises Israel into toast and an oil lobby that prevents advances in fighting global warming, none of them ever having obtained a single vote from the electorate, so spare me the Land Of The Free stuff for a minute). I'd remind yiu that, of the thousands of EU laws that have been passed down the decades, the UK has adopted almost all of them enthusiastically. If you think that leaving the EU will put up wages, help the NHS, stem immigration and generally make this country richer, then yes, you really are truly delusional.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 07:08 PM

Ah Ha   finally a key question by DMcG

Yes people who will vote for Trump will do so based mostly upon their feelings since candidates like Trump can create certain feelings and for those people who sense feelings equal facts, therefor candidates can create "facts" upon which people can make judgments.

My mistake is probably making a false equivalency between the Brexit vote and a US election. However the google search's of Brexit a day after the vote demonstrate many people did vote without a clear factual foundation and probably voted based upon how they were introduced to and experienced the question.

A good example in the US is how Gingrich admits that certain facts presented by democrats such as crime going down by 20% may be technically true it is a "fact" most people feel the opposite is true.

I thought this was understood with the saying "you can have your own opinions but you can't have your own facts".

It seems to me Trump is proving that wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Stanron
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 06:33 PM

Donuel wrote: false equivalency ... is responsible for the Brexit vote....

Surely this means that my judgements pre voting were false. I believed they were correct so you must be saying that I was deluded in making those judgements. Can you sustain your theory and accept that my judgements were correct?

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 06:19 PM

These are perfect examples how feelings create ones reality which is not in accord with the facts.

As everyone can see I never said anything about anyone being delusional or not in possession of their own life or thoughts.

Upon second look you can see the topic is about false equivalency with an attempt at humor at Boris Johnson's expense.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 06:17 PM

Outside the UK, I don't know how well known this (possibly apocryphal) quote from Harold Macmillan is, when he was asked what a prime minister most feared: "Events, dear boy, events".

I was for Remain, but would certainly not claim those who voted to leave were deluded. Along with all the stuff that was said, both those voting to stay and remain were given an almost impossible task to judge which approach would put us in the better position to deal with completely unpredictable "events" not just those we can predict, (with varying degrees of accuracy). And to be honest I think how we deal with such things is more important than whether any given statement from either side was true, spun, or wholly false.

Now my judgment is that more events will need a cooperative approach with a body like the EU, whereas others may think what counts is the flexibility of being able to take decisions on your own without talking to a host of other counties with possibly conflicting objectives. But that is what it is: a judgement not, essentially, a factual analysis.

And that is the key question for Trump vs Hilary: what is each voter's judgement on how each will react to unexpected events.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Senoufou
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 05:26 PM

Same here Stanron. My vote for Brexit was, like yours, based on my own judgement and evaluation of facts. I am a University graduate with a reasonably informed mind, and I am quite capable of deciding how I stand on political matters in my own country, thank you very much.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Stanron
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 04:45 PM

I feel insulted at being told I am delusional for voting for Brexit by an American.

My vote for Brexit was based on observed facts and preferred future options. Americas preference for A UK contained in Europe is a result of American national self interest. My preference for a UK outside the EU is a concern for the UK's national self interest.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 04:31 PM

Both
I need only ask you if Obama is an American citizen then we would both know the true purpose of your question is either levity or agenda.

The big problem is exacerbated by the fact that feelings create stronger memories than certain imperative facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Stanron
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 04:16 PM

Are you sure about this or do you just feel it to be true?

Subject: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 04:04 PM

This is by far the most destructive false equivalency of the many false equivalencies that are emerging worldwide but especially in the UK and USA. It is responsible for the Brexit vote and soon elections in the US.

Mother Teresa May's Boris Johnson is the Fluke of Dumbledore's UK's foreign secretary is also in charge of creating false equivalencies second only to Trump.

Its been some time since Stephen Colbert's term "Truthiness" has reminded us of the dangers of the false equivalency.

It is important to learn to see the Feelings equals Facts ruse.
I always warned of this as being a hypnotic technique when used for evil is very evil.

Perhaps a few examples would make things crystal clear;
There are people who feel like believing something to be true is the same as something being true.
People sometimes emphasize feelings over facts like:
Obama is a Muslim.
The vast majority of people today do not feel safe
The whole economy feels stuck.
It feels like we have lost the war on Islam terrorism.
It feels like Jews are the real bullies...

There are many bright eyed rational members here who do state the clarity of facts only to be assailed by someone's feeing's about those facts.

People bring feelings to a fact fight.
If the topic were meta physics that might be acceptable, but not politics.