why well run folk clubs are important

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Gervase
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 10:45 AM

Er, you can't!
Someone, somewhere will always complain. It's the way of things, particularly in the f*lk world. Remember that, whatever you do, it was always done better somewhere else by someone else in the old days before these pesky kids came along, and just because it's about to die, there's no reason to change things!

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Scrump
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 10:35 AM

And if we don't do something to break down the walls we've cast up around us, to build bridges to other traditions, to encourage the few talented youngsters who do share our passion, and above all to demonstate to the rest of the population the pure quality that's our true cultural heritage, this music will die with us and the revival will have been for nothing.

The problem is that attempts to 'build bridges' are often scoffed at by some people, or the artists who make such attempts criticised for 'selling out'. How can we build bridges without this happening?

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Tootler
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 08:41 AM

I define a 'f*lk club' as somewhere that the public pays to get into, at whatever venue.

This seems an inadequate definition to me.

I go to concerts at the Sage in Gateshead, and that is most definitely not a folk club. I also go to their weekly folk music classes and to their folk session for the over 50's. While some of the activities at these latter two have some of the attributes of a folk club and I pay for both of them, neither can be described as a folk club. They are primarily about learning - Oh! and enjoying yourself while doing it.

I think a folk club is somewhere that people go to meet others who share their interest in the music and to participate.

I recently picked up a publication called "Folk Roundabout" at a club I go to regularly. This is primarily a roundup of clubs in North East England and Cumbria. Excepting the dance clubs (which are also listed), the vast majority of these seem to have a format of a regular singaround/singers & musicians night with periodic guest nights. Most, but not all, levy a small charge - presumably to cover the costs of running the club - with a larger charge on guest nights. The main ones that don't charge are sessions and while these have many of the attributes of a folk club, they do not normally seem to be considered so.

The important feature, it seems to me, is that these clubs rely on people who come along regularly to sing or play and who do so not for a fee but because they enjoy doing it and wish to share that enjoyment with others. The music making is purely amateur and the "audience" is simply fellow club members. In such circumstances, surely it is unreasonable to expect professional standards and it is the nature of things that there will be some "dummies" (for want of a better term).

What I think is reasonable to expect is that those who do sing or play do their best on the night and have done at least some practice beforehand. The practice may have been a long time beforehand if it a song they have long known and sing at least reasonably frequently. If it is a new song or tune, then the practice obviously needs to be recent. Even so, things can go wrong on the night as I am sure we have all found out at some time or other :-)

In such circumstances, I also don't see anything wrong in having a copy of the words and/or music handy as an aide memoir. It is possible to give a creditable performance without knowing every word of a song providing you have practiced and can sing without having to look at the words all the time. Some people do genuinely seem have difficulty remembering words but that does not necessarily make them poor performers.

I think what really matters is that you do your best and that you have a genuine desire to improve.

Guest nights are a different matter. There the performers are being paid to entertain and it is only reasonable to expect professional standards.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Rasener
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 03:29 PM

Great number there Big Al.

God it sounds just like my neighbour.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 01:32 PM

Yup - do that often as I can. But some clubs won't ask you to sing even when you go because you're not a member (can't be a member when you're on the road 4 nights a week and want to see anything of your family). And I've even travelled to do supports, gratis, only to be given 3 while a mediocre house band does 8. Don't get me wrong, I usually enjoy floor spots - they're always interesting and often stunning. I'm talking about comers-in who expect better.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 01:20 PM

if they had come to the black bull at Blaydon, when I was lasat there and heard floor singers of the calibre of peter wood and vic gammon, they would have come back. My point is its up to professionals to occasionally turn up,and do a spot gratis, to help bring the standards up.
I have seen members of the Wilson family[ particuarly chris and ann and ken,]but also tom, mike and pat at stockton folk club.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 12:51 PM

You're right, of course Dick. But quality in someone like like Carthy is self evident if people are only willing to give him half a hearing.

I'm talking about persuading people who've liked you at an arts centre, or in a village hall, or on the wireless to come to a club.

It can actually be quite funny watching their eyes widen and their mouths drop open. But they don't come back. Ever.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 12:29 PM

guest;    just because the music dies,it dont mean it wont be revived again.
the revival wont have been for nothing,because I have had much pleasure[as would most of the contributors to this thread]out of it.
your point about we,re just people who make a horrible noise,applies to performers in arts centres as well as folk clubs.
Ionce had the pleasure of coming across a Juke box, that had martin carthy singing the bonny lass of anglesea,so i put it on;;;;;;;;;;
      the expressions on the faces of the pool players,one of them said what,s this, his mate replied oh its that Jazz singer.
   Carthy, a jazz singer[seems like jazz has the same problems of overcoming ignorance]. As Martin frequently plays in art centres, it seems like your comments dont just apply to folk clubs.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Mo the caller
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 12:15 PM

I don't see why charging a nominal entrance fee for a singers/musicians night means the people who pay it will expect high class entertainment. It is a club, most people come to do their bit, some come to listen. And on guest nights you pay a bit more to hear class from guest and the cream of the club.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 12:13 PM

It is to this song, which the Villanous Les refers:-
http://bigalwhittle.co.uk/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/trish.mp3

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 12:13 PM

I avoided reading this thead till now because I thought I knew what I'd find. My mistake. I'm with Gervaise and the countess 100% (and BOY would you be surprised if you knew who I am Diane!)

All the points above about community, inclusivity, having a go, learning your craft etc are totally valid - and I'm very used to smiling and nodding through some very ornery performances (guests soon become skilful at this if they want to survive) up and down the land, and I can even get pleasure from doing so by applying the criteria mentioned above - but the point remains:

F*lk's like a religion: once you're inside it all makes sense and it's all worthwhile. But the pool of insiders is dwindling. To the rest of the world we're strange people who make a horrid noise.

And if we don't do something to break down the walls we've cast up around us, to build bridges to other traditions, to encourage the few talented youngsters who do share our passion, and above all to demonstate to the rest of the population the pure quality that's our true cultural heritage, this music will die with us and the revival will have been for nothing.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Scrump
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 11:17 AM

Guest baz, well said. The singarounds I go to sound similar to yours, and it's much a social thing as anything else. I think some of the participants just enjoy singing or playing occasionally and have no illusions about how good they are, it's just the pleasure of joining in. I enjoy that as well, but I also regard the singarounds as a good place to 'test' new songs or arrangements before I take them further.

But some clubs are able to provide both the 'social/singaround' get-together as well as the more formal guest night - but not on the same evening, which I think would be a mistake. In other words, I think a single club can provide for both types of evening, but not in combination.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST,guest baz
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 10:55 AM

As someone who has NOT been going going to folk clubs for years, and therefore can speak with relatively NO authority on the subject, I thought I'd like to chuck my two-penneth in.....:)

I've been going to my local folk club for just about 1 year. I'm 33 (the youngest at the club), and I'm sorry to say that in that year I have started to both put on weight AND get a bit whiskery. We meet every week, and most nights its a singaround. There's about 10-15 of us who turn up regularly, some who are good, some who are not so good. We have a raffle each week, and the proceeds go towards booking a guest, some of whom were good, and some of whom...well, you get the picture. We occasionally have a visitor pop their head around the door, and I feel that they're always made welcome. They're invited to contribute a song, tune, story, joke, poem or whatever else tickles their fancy. If they don't want to, that's fine too.

Anyway, the point I wanted to make is that whilst going to this club has most definitely made me a better musician (I'm just now starting to get bookings in local pubs etc, and playing at the club has really helped me along), and whilst it also provides a venue of sorts for local folk musicians to come and get paid, none of these are the real reason why I like it so much.

I like the club because I have met some good, interesting, funny people, and made new friends. Plain and simple. Some of them can sing and play really nicely, Some couldn't hold tune in a bucket. But I'm not sure that that's the point. If my mate sat next to me starts the finger-in-ear routine whilst warbling some 18thC song about a woman dressing up as a man and going to sea before being eaten by a whale (or something....) then I'm not going to suggest that they don't bother next time 'cos it was crap. These are my mates were talking about!

We meet up, have a beer, have a sing and a joke, we try to make others feel welcome to join us and do the same. That's the point of a folk club the way I see it. However, if I want to actually go and hear someone who is really, really good, then I pay to go to a concert hall and hear them. I don't expect to find them in a folk club.

As I say, I'm not really a "folkie" as such. I am a musician, but not expressly a folk musician, so I might have this all wrong. But it seems to me that if you're looking for professional standards in a folk club, you're looking in the wrong place. Just as if you went to a concert hall looking for a laugh a joke and a song with your mates, you'd be looking in the wrong place. I don't see anything wrong with that. Music is supposed to be fun.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 09:25 AM

200 !!

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Scrump
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 09:23 AM

I know the stock answer is, "But I need to try out a song, and there's nothing like performing it in front of an audience," but that's daft. How often do you come across professional musicians 'trying out' new material?

Put simply, just practise. In the car, in the shower, in the middle of a field; anywhere but in front of an audience. When you've got it nailed, then trot it out in public. Put some work into the material and make it work for you, and don't expect the audience to be your 'sounding board.' And I've noticed that the terrible singers are the ones who never bloody improve. They turn up, time after time, and are indulged, and yet their performance shows no sign of even nudging the heights of the mediocre.

I agree that singers who haven't properly learnt a song shouldn't give it a first airing in front of an audience, but you have to sing it in public for the first time somewhere, and I suggested a singaround is a good place for that, rather than (say) as a floor singer on a guest night.

As I said, however well you think you know a song, there's nothing like singing it in front of other people to confirm whether you do or not. And an informal singaround seems to me to be an ideal place for that.

I agree that it's not good for a club to indulge a crap performer more than once. Mind you, it's a good chance for the rest of the regulars to visit the bar, the toilet, etc. :-)

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Gervase
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 09:03 AM

I'll probably sound pretty rough when I'm eighty, too!

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Rasener
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 08:59 AM

Hey WeeLittleDrummer, we have a neighbour called Trish. Now there must be a song written somewhere out there about Trish.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 08:55 AM

'to my ears at least'

here is part of the conundrum. When I listen to recordings of traditional singers then read critiques of them, I also have this feeling that I am being invited to hear feats of technicality, which are in head of the traddy lobby. And its not because I haven't perservered - I really don't see it, and I think at best - its very unlikely that they are observing some weird scale of music that our corrupted 20th century ears miss out on.

Most of them sound bloody rough to me. they sound like old people who can't sing very well. They probably lived in societies where the singer of songs, tellers of stories was one of the few sources of entertainment on offer in bleak impoverished surroundings.

However the traddies and revivalists are welcome to their beliefs, and to their corner of most folk clubs. It just seems to me evident really beyond argument that 90% of the people who go to folk clubs are devotees of what happened with acoustic music in the 1960's and hope to express something of their own society through the more accessible forms.

I love nothing better in a folk club, than when someone manages to write a song about our lives, whatever the quality of the singer. And I love that little gasp of delight from the audience when they suddenly realise that it is their lives and communities that have been deemed worthy of being celebrated in song.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 08:52 AM

On balance, I think that the idea that music is participative, and not something merely to observe performed by professionals, is the more important concept.

Once people do participate, IMHO they tend to improve.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 08:03 AM

Have the quality control crew up above stopped to think how contradictory their views are.?

Considering their desire to hear polished performances of traditional songs in folk clubs, is it not true that the source singers for these very same songs often gave, to my ears at least, very rough and ready performances of those songs when they were collected? In fact if many of them performed in a folk club today I suspect that they would be subject to the same level of criticism that has been directed at "substandard" floor singers in this thread. Many were miles away from the standards of excellence that have been advocated here.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 07:55 AM

I recently guested at the blaydon folk club[ arelatively new club]run by Danny and joyce mcleod and friends. An EXCELLENT CLUB, among the floor singers that night were Peter Wood and Vic Gammon[BOTH performers of a high standard]Plus many others, every singer was good. Gervase and i must go to differnt clubs.
however if professional singers were to perform, even only once a month at their local club this would help to set higher standards. I used to do this myself when i lived in Nottingham.,visiting Carlton Carrington AND Robin hood Clubs REGULARLY.DickMiles

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Cathie
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 07:42 AM

'traditional song will be around for a long time to come - in books and on recordings. From a purely selfish point of view, it would be good if it were still being sung at clubs and concerts; but whether it will be passed on in any worthwhile form in live performance to future generations will depend greatly on it being performed well.'
-------------------------------------------------

I wish the melody lines/chords/lyrics to these songs were more easily available on the web for those like me who want to learn them but can't find the music. Traditional folk songs have not been part of my upbringing.

Does anyone know of a site or even a current book where they can be found?

I can't work out chords from a recording yet, nor know the melody line from the lyrics. For these treasures to be passed on, I wish they were more quickly accessible.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 06:53 AM

Well I partly agree with Jim. I'm not suggesting that you should pretend someone can sing when they can't. What I would suggest, you would be a bit daft if you didn't realise early on that folk clubs do attract a few people who haven't really got it together as performers, and you shouldn't start getting uptight about the fact.

These people are going to be there. In a way they have as much right to be there as people who work very hard at their craft. Quite often, they do contribute to the evening substantially - by singing something unusual - even if not very well; by their enthusiasm, by their example - because they do make people realise that you CAN have a go.

Sound like Wilfred Pickles now - now theres a bloke who could patronise for Europe - whats on the table mabel, give him the money Barney, and and are y' courtin'?

Have a go, Joe!
Come and have a go!

Okay, before your time..........

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 06:52 AM

a well run folk club, will have[in my experience] amongst its organisers or residents, someone who can offer constructive criticism, to a beginner performer[ [suggestions about what sort of songs might suit,ways of improving accompaniments,learning to pitch ones songs etc].
now contrary to the impression one might get from gervase,there are well run folk clubs,who do this,they are probably, those ones that have been going a long time.
I think its a minority of guest booking folk clubs that tolerate anmateurish performances, even in singaround clubs people should be encouraged to improve, shown diplomatically [in private] their mistakes and helped.there are very few people who are tone deaf or have no sense of rhythym and who cant improve with the correct help from club residents.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Gervase
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 05:50 AM

Amen to both Jim and countess richard. Surely there can be no argument with that?

I know the stock answer is, "But I need to try out a song, and there's nothing like performing it in front of an audience," but that's daft. How often do you come across professional musicians 'trying out' new material?

Put simply, just practise. In the car, in the shower, in the middle of a field; anywhere but in front of an audience. When you've got it nailed, then trot it out in public. Put some work into the material and make it work for you, and don't expect the audience to be your 'sounding board.' And I've noticed that the terrible singers are the ones who never bloody improve. They turn up, time after time, and are indulged, and yet their performance shows no sign of even nudging the heights of the mediocre.

I know f*lk club audiences appear to be notoriously forgiving but that doesn't mean we're not sitting there sniggering or writhing inside. As someone who has run events, there are some turns that you slot into the evening's programme simply because they are so bog-awful it gives everyone a chance to go and have a pee and make for the bar. Much as I wanted to, I never had the balls actually to tell them, "No, I'm sorry, you've got Van Gogh's ear for music and you always will have. Take up mime." These days I might not be quite so 'inclusive'.

For potential newcomers, crap performances and carelessnes are a major turn- off, full stop.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 05:31 AM

Grab, I define a 'f*lk club' as somewhere that the public pays to get into, at whatever venue. The 'club' bit is no longer very relevant under present licensing laws. A session/singaround is something else; informal and, though people may listen/spectate, they are not paying to do so. Nevertheless, I don't think anyone should just turn up at their local singaround with a song only half learned, or at a session and attempt to lead a tune they don't really know on an instrument they can't yet play properly. The music deserves greater respect, and so do those who have to listen. And you should have rather more self-respect. 'Good enough for f*lk' should be an extremely high standard.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 04:09 AM

Can I make it clear; I am talking about improving the basic standards in clubs; I am not in any way advocating a star system. As I have already said, I believe it lies within the abilities of most people to improve their singing if they are prepared to work at it. It is a small step from enjoying singing to enjoying singing competently; understanding the songs, not forgetting words, getting the tune right, singing in tune (cup your hand over your ear if necessary – it works!), and most importantly, enjoying the songs and communicating that enjoyment to those listening. All these things are inseparable, technique, understanding, involvement, enjoyment and communication.
Far from believing that it is important to have a galaxy of stars representing traditional singing; I believe it is many of these 'stars' who have benefited most and contributed least to it, through ignorance, indifference, ambition – or all three.
When I heard M.P. Kim Howell's disparaging remarks about folk clubs some time ago I was annoyed, but on reflection, he (or she; I'm not sure) had a point; it would be my idea of Hell to be stuck in many of them. Unless things have altered radically over the last couple of years the standard of singing is abysmal and dropping steadily, and judging by some of the contributions to this thread it's little wonder.
I can't see why 'Man-of-the- People should get so annoyed with the suggestion that it is necessary to work on singing – I'm certainly not suggesting that people who can sing should stop because they are not good enough; I am suggesting that an attainable, generally acceptable standard should be set and worked for in all places were traditional songs are sung publicly. It is not a criticism to say that people need to work on singing, just as they have to work at every endevour. Real, lasting enjoyment comes from doing a thing well. After all it is the 'people' that 'Man-of-the People appears to be claiming to be 'a man of' who created and passed on these songs in the first place, and surely we owe it to them to get things a little bit right.
I don't think Wee Little Drummer is being in any way patronising; on the contrary, it is patronising and incredibly cruel, to pretend that somebody can sing when they obviously can't. Don't forget; people are still taking the piss out of Florence Foster Jenkins well over half a century after her husband paid for her to sing out-of-tune at Carnegie Hall. It is problematical to tell "nice people" they need to go off and do some work on their singing without offending them.
As far as my own activities are concerned, traditional song will be around for a long time to come - in books and on recordings. From a purely selfish point of view, it would be good if it were still being sung at clubs and concerts; but whether it will be passed on in any worthwhile form in live performance to future generations will depend greatly on it being performed well.
Jim Carroll
PS. I am talking purely about traditional song; I have no great interest in singer-songwriters, music hall singers, pop performers (of whatever era) or any others who have chosen the folk club as their venue – they can fight their own corner.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Grab
Date: 27 Nov 06 - 06:34 PM

Are we on the old chestnut of "what's a singaround/tune session, what's a paid performance, and what's a folk club?"

CR, if your definition of a folk club is purely a paid performance, possibly with unpaid performers opening for the kudos/experience/fun, then I think you're right. But if your definition of a folk club is any public singing/playing, then I think you're liking the music but not the means of transmission which is why people are still singing it today.

Any chance on clarification, otherwise this might just keep going round in a kind of circle of flame...?

Graham.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Scrump
Date: 27 Nov 06 - 06:21 PM

I forgot what I were sayin' now :(

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 11:39 AM

hear hear.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 08:32 AM

Okay I'll risk an answer. We are self important, because we its us that invest our lives in the folk club movement. We give it importance, by our commitment.

They've only just got round to giving out MBE's for folk singers - it will be a while before society as a whole gets round to giving out MBE's for folk club organisers.

But to us in the folk club movement, they are important and people doing something worthwhile.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Dartford Warbler
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 08:12 AM

GUEST, floorsinger

Well, why don't YOU start a thread with that title ?

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST,floorsinger
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 08:07 AM

Title should be, "why well run folk clubs are so self important"

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Scrump
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 08:00 AM

Still, you only learn to perform by ... performing. That's where, for a new performer, occasionally getting up for a floorspot and making an a**e of it helps. You never want to mess up so badly again, and it spurs you on to polish your act.

Well said, GUEST. I agree with the general principle that only people who (appear to) have reached a certain standard of competence should perform on guest nights, when there are paying punters who are entitled to a reasonably professional standard of entertainment for their entrance fee.

But prohibiting people from singarounds seems daft to me - if people can't try things out in public at these, then where are they expected to do it?

I know from my own experience that no amount of practice "in the shower" is enough - there's a huge difference between getting it perfect at home, and then trying it out in public (as I know to my cost). Singarounds to me are the ideal place to try out new songs (whether you wrote them yourself or are just playing them in public for the first time). It's a chance to get feedback on how well the song will go down, and a chance to try it out without the pressure from doing a floor spot in front of a paying audience.

Singarounds are a good chance for club organisers to assess newcomers, before they give thema floor spot. I think it works well both for organisers and aspiring performers.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 07:01 AM

There's a considerable list of tunes which are all subtitled Posidrive ( ©Anahata) because they are just so easy to screw up. If you fail to practice them for a week, you'll notice. Leave them for two weeks and so will everyone else.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 06:49 AM

do their best to get it right is better,no one is a machine,even the most experienced professional performer can slip up.
An item can be performed competently [no errors]but be lacking in passion and emotion. another song can be performed with the occassional slip but still be more exciting.
of course I advocate that everyone should try and be as professional as they can[ but it is not the oNly ingredient to a successful performance]
AS A PROFESSIONAL I Spend several hours a day, practising, singing and playing, but I can still mess up, the same as everyone else. Dick Miles

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 06:17 AM

Wld

Of course professionals who do it for a living to provide the weeks groceries have to get it right. I called you patronising because your post implied that you were referring to floor singers. Crossed wires perhaps? Apologies if that's the case.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 06:17 AM

Okay, yes, I see what you're getting at now. Most of the examples I gave regarding not remembering or knowing a piece (jazz players) had all put in thousands of hours of practice in order to be able to improvise that well anyway.

Still, you only learn to perform by ... performing. That's where, for a new performer, occasionally getting up for a floorspot and making an a**e of it helps. You never want to mess up so badly again, and it spurs you on to polish your act.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 06:06 AM

I don't think I was being patronising. I've just been to a lot of folk clubs and I can speak with a degree of authority on the subject.

And yes some people would like ones facility with remembering words and playing the guitar, which if you work at it seems effortless. Techniques which you will acquire if you work hard enough. That's what I bring to the party.

Recently (this month) I got the words of a song I had been looking for for twenty years from a singer whose accompaniments are always at such a volume that the words are largely inaccessible to the audience, and anyway they don't fit the tune.

Unless you're from a showbiz family (which I'm not) the business of entertaining isn't second nature. the desire to perform however is in most of us at some level.

That's all I'm saying. if you find that patronising - maybe you just haven't thought much about the subject. if you do it for a living, if providing the weeks groceries depends on it - you have to think about it and get it right.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 06:05 AM

Re: the belief that you should know absolutely that you can play the song/piece before you perform it.

There's the oft-stated (possibly apocryphal) tale of "scat" singing being invented by a jazz musician who started to sing a song and realizing halfway through that he didn't know the words. Whether it's true or not, it does demonstrate something - that is, sometimes inspired music comes out as a result of only half-remembering the tune or the words and creating something new out of the resulting improvisation. If we want to be note or word perfect all the time, then we risk having to rely always on the printed or recorded source. Look at Miles Davis' seminal 'Kind of Blue' album - yes, they were all master musicians, but Miles deliberately kept them away from any arrangements before they went into the studio, where he gave them a rough outline format and let the music develop organically. Their not knowing exactly where the music was going was what made it so fresh.

Besides, I believe well run folk clubs are capable of structuring an evening so that the experienced performers open and close the sets, while those still 'cutting their teeth' are allowed a chance to perform somewhere in the middle.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 05:54 AM

Attention: CR agrees with WLD alert:

Some guest said:
I'm sure people would give their right arm to be as good as you weelittledrummer. NOT.

Well, maybe I wouldn't go quite that far. It would defeat the purpose somewhat.

But WLD is right and not at all 'patronising'. You don't get good via the waving of a magic wand. Or asking those you want to be like for their 'secret'. There aren't any. Just practice.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Cathie
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 05:06 AM

Could I just acknowledge gratitude to all those who run folk clubs - the time, effort and angst that goes with it. Especially the 7 that I go to in Beds and Herts.

Without venues to singaround or experienced models to learn from, I wonder whether I would have ever picked up a guitar at all.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 05:04 AM

I'll second that Peter. And I'll add that although I prefer traditional English song to other things, and think that people ought to do their own heritages not other people's, I'd not want to support a club that prohibited a wider range of stuff.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST,Peter Stockport
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 04:58 AM

Written into the aims of the Red Bull Folk Club in Stockport is "To support and encourage performance of live music and poetry of any standard". I think we took it from the Nowth West Fed.

On a singers night anyone of any standard is welcome at The Red Bull,you can forget your words, tune, or anything. You're always welcome. We don't mind, in fact that is what learning is about.

Of course on a guest night where we have a paying public the resident is always well rehearsed and prepared.

I don't think I'd want to go to a club which only allowed or encouraged the more accomplished to perform on a singers night.

Cheers
Peter

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 04:54 AM

Patronising or what?

I'm sure people would give their right arm to be as good as you weelittledrummer. Not.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 04:05 AM

A lot of these people don't KNOW they are poorly rehearsed etc. But they are frequently quite nice people. they see ones ability to remember the words of a song - usually without a prompt and the ability to keep an accompaniment going as some sort of magical powers one possesses - rather than a reflection of the time you spend practising - something you would rather do , than watch coronation street.

still these people are quite nice and they are keen to perform, and that's not a wicked urge - like wanting to shoot people or something. And frequently they attempt stuff that you wouldn't, because you know its hard. And that can be interesting - not very entertaining, but interesting...like talking to someone and they bring up an interesting topic.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Bernard
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 05:46 PM

If people enjoy it, why is it 'wrong'?

A friend of mine can't sing for toffee... but he has an uncanny way of making what he does enjoyable, despite the fact it sounds dreadful!!

I reckon there's more to it than musical perfection...

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST,Man of the People
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 05:18 PM

Some people here sure enough think they are pretty damn good huh, and the rest of us not good enough. They'd have people audition their moves to be let into a disco. Given themselves fancy names too.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Gervase
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 04:05 PM

I can think of no greater pleasure (fun) than hearing a good traditional song well sung, and, when I was singing regularly, I can't remember enjoying anything so much as, on the few occasions when I sang at my best, making my songs work for me and for my audience.
So true. When it works, it's nothing short of magical.
But, as countess richard says, let's leave the rehearsals for the shower. I know that clubs are meant to be the nurseries of new talent, but please, please, let's at least retain some critical structure. I know most of us are ameateur, but does that mean that the clubs have to be so amateurish?
There are many people, bless 'em, who try to inflict poorly rehearsed and ill-performed material on paying punters. Is it really so very hard to say to them, "Listen; go home and practise, then practise a bit more, and then ask someone else who doesn't like you to listen to you. If they say it sounds OK, then come back.'?
Folk clubs should not be used as a base datum mark for singers or musicians. Yes, we've all got to start somewhere, but for me that somewhere was my cellar (nice accoustics, by the way!).

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 03:53 PM

oh yes ,the maligned Alex Campbell,gave me one of the most enjoyable nights that I have ever had, in a folkclub. Dartford 1974.[ were you there billybob and breezy]he sang and played well, and in tune, was extremely funny and the audience loved him ,at his best he was one of the finest performers and did alot of good for folk music. DickMiles.